felderownersgroup@groups.io

Re: Wax/oil finishes Joe Calhoon All Messages By This Member #137548 Hi Chris, Good question, if it’s working more power to you for avoiding these high priced Euro finishes! I used watco for years and my former shop associate uses Waterlox a lot for countertops and tables. I have no experience with that but he likes it. I was also thinking back when I used the Sam Maloff oil- poly - wax mix and it looked good and pretty durable on horizontal surfaces.
Re: Wax/oil finishes Christopher Rozycki All Messages By This Member #137547 Ok ya’ll.. For years I have been using Watco and Waterlox, with what I believe to be success. Am I missing something critical, or am I just clueless? I am not producing my projects commercially, and maybe that has some value in this discussion. Chris Rozycki toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Sep 14, 2024, at 6:12?AM, Joe Calhoon via groups.io <joecalhoon@...> wrote: ?[Edited Message Follows] Hi Lucky, I have only been using the Saicos premium hard wax oil on my home projects and the yurt I built for my son. I know they have other products but that’s the only one I have used. I used some Osmo years ago and it seemed to work the same but certainly have not put the research into this like you have. When I first started using these I felt like the build and protection was not so good wiping that first coat off. Hence going to leaving a heavy coat on the first application. It does dry fairly coarse and needs sanding with 320. The 320 is a hold over from my hard finish days but getting the sheen and feel I like. I just use the microfiber roller they sell and leaving the material on without wiping doesn’t seem like the type roller matters much. I’m not using Hardwax oil for any exterior work. I have been using the Saicos UV exterior oil for this applied the same way. I have tried several of the European exterior oils and also US made Heritage Oil. It used to be made locally. They are all similar, with exterior oil the recoating and maintenance is necessary depending on exposure. Now for my bar project I’m using Rubio only because I like the way their stains go on. Not a fan of staining anything but an old fashioned bar calls for it. And the customer is always right! Or should we say - he with the gold makes the rules! The color is coming out good but the one coat just doesn’t seem like enough. I plan to use the sheen additive for a second coat. I did not see any reason to use the hardener since it will be a while before it is even installed. I talked to a guy that came to Alpine a few years ago that was using Rubio. He has since gone from a one man shop to a full on architectural shop with employees. He said he was getting a lot of callback on Rubio finished horizontal work. He started adding N3 Nano to the topcoat and said that helped some but said he finally set up a spray booth using Poly and conversion varnish. For my bar tops I am going to go over the Rubio with Poly. Bars I built 20 to 30 years ago we finishe the bar tops with poly and easy to refinish when necessary. Conversion varnish is tougher but very difficult to refinish in the field. <IMG_9438.jpeg> <IMG_9437.jpeg> image0.jpeg image1.jpeg image2.jpeg
Re: Wax/oil finishes Joe Calhoon All Messages By This Member #137546 Edited Hi Lucky, I have only been using the Saicos premium hard wax oil on my home projects and the yurt I built for my son. I know they have other products but that’s the only one I have used. I used some Osmo years ago and it seemed to work the same but certainly have not put the research into this like you have. When I first started using these I felt like the build and protection was not so good wiping that first coat off. Hence going to leaving a heavy coat on the first application. It does dry fairly coarse and needs sanding with 320. The 320 is a hold over from my hard finish days but getting the sheen and feel I like. I just use the microfiber roller they sell and leaving the material on without wiping doesn’t seem like the type roller matters much. I’m not using Hardwax oil for any exterior work. I have been using the Saicos UV exterior oil for this applied the same way. I have tried several of the European exterior oils and also US made Heritage Oil. It used to be made locally. They are all similar, with exterior oil the recoating and maintenance is necessary depending on exposure. Now for my bar project I’m using Rubio only because I like the way their stains go on. Not a fan of staining anything but an old fashioned bar calls for it. And the customer is always right! Or should we say - he with the gold makes the rules! The color is coming out good but the one coat just doesn’t seem like enough. I plan to use the sheen additive for a second coat. I did not see any reason to use the hardener since it will be a while before it is even installed. I talked to a guy that came to Alpine a few years ago that was using Rubio. He has since gone from a one man shop to a full on architectural shop with employees. He said he was getting a lot of callback on Rubio finished horizontal work. He started adding N3 Nano to the topcoat and said that helped some but said he finally set up a spray booth using Poly and conversion varnish. For my bar tops I am going to go over the Rubio with Poly. Bars I built 20 to 30 years ago we finishe the bar tops with poly and easy to refinish when necessary. Conversion varnish is tougher but very difficult to refinish in the field. IMG_9438.jpeg IMG_9437.jpeg
Re: Drum sanders mariusz_m All Messages By This Member #137545 I want to thank everyone who responded to my post. You are all amazing! I doubt there is another place where I could find this much information. Thank you all for your time to share your thoughts, knowledge and first hand experience! Mariusz
Re: Drum sanders mariusz_m All Messages By This Member #137544 Thank you David, this amazing wealth of information!?
Re: Drum sanders Tom Gensmer All Messages By This Member #137543 Prior to ordering my North State 16" wide belt sand, I looked into the Houfek Cindy sanders as well. At the time, Houfek was willing to import a machine, but they wouldn't ship until they had a shipping container's worth of product sold, and in general the logistics seemed a bit challenging. That being said, I have seen Houfek machines in North America, though they do seem to be few and far between.? ? As Marius points out, the Cindy machines are not inexpensive, ~$20k is in the ballpark of what was quoted to me a few years ago. Unaffordable for me at the time, and would be a tough pill to swallow even now. That being said, the Cindy machines seemed more sophisticated, presumably justifying the cost premium over the North State/Powermatic.? ? One interesting detail on the Cindy machines is that the feed bed is stationary, while the sanding aggregate moves up- and down-.? ? As already pointed out, the North State/Powermatic 16" machine is pretty slick, and a good value for the cost. In terms of footprint, it really doesn't take up much more room than a similarly sized drum sander, but I acknowledge it is more expensive, requires more power, better dust extraction, and compressed air to operate properly.? ? That is rather strange that there aren't more options for a small-format wide belt in Europe.? ? ? -- Tom Gensmer Heritage Home Renewals, LLC Minneapolis, MN
Re: Drum sanders Jason Holtz All Messages By This Member #137542 I had a 15" open ended wide belt, badged Bridgewood but the same as powermatic, North State etc. solid machine. There's actually one on local auction here in Minnesota right now.? Jason Holtz J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406 612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
Re: Drum sanders Terence All Messages By This Member #137541 开云体育 John: I had a 37” Speedsander…while certainly superior to a drum sander I found the quality lacking and sold it after a few years. Terry toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Sep 12, 2024, at 6:57 PM, John Deming <jldjr26@...> wrote: I am also researching sanders for my new / retirement shop. ?I once owned a woodmaster 50” drum sander but had little use on it before i sold because of a career move. It was a solid quality machine. ? I am also considering another drum or low end wide belt like the North state / powermatic, another woodmaster drum or Timesaver Speedsander. ?Does anyone have experience with the Timesaver Speedsander.? ?I am considering the 37” or 43”, so that i can handle table tops if needed. For most things the open end sander or a nice drum sander would cover my needs but feel having that extra width covers the full spectrum.?
Re: Drum sanders John Deming All Messages By This Member #137540 I am also researching sanders for my new / retirement shop. ?I once owned a woodmaster 50” drum sander but had little use on it before i sold because of a career move. It was a solid quality machine. ? I am also considering another drum or low end wide belt like the North state / powermatic, another woodmaster drum or Timesaver Speedsander. ?Does anyone have experience with the Timesaver Speedsander.? ?I am considering the 37” or 43”, so that i can handle table tops if needed. For most things the open end sander or a nice drum sander would cover my needs but feel having that extra width covers the full spectrum.?
Re: Drum sanders David P. Best All Messages By This Member #137539 开云体育 Looks like the manual was stripped off by the forum software. ?You can download it from this link: ? David Best DBestWorkshop@... https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/ https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Sep 12, 2024, at 3:47?PM, David P. Best via groups.io <dbestworkshop@...> wrote: Mariusz, I have not had any major issues with the North State sander. ?Mine is 3-phase with the 7.5 HP motor which appeared to me to have several voltage alternatives with wiring configuration changes noted on the electrical cover on the motor. ? I’m attaching the user manual for the Powermatic equivalent - parts are interchangeable and available from Powermatic or from Leneave. ? If I were in your situation, I would ask Leneave to include a replacement rubber membrane for the air valve assembly - you can see it on page 18 in the attached marked as item #26. ?If you don’t already know, this sander requires compressed air which is used to sense the position of the sanding belt and drive the oscillation of the upper idler roller that slews the belts from side-to-side. ?I previously posted some information on how to adjust the slew rates at this link: ?? ?Click on the images to see a detailed description, and there is a simple video showing the belt oscillator operation when properly adjusted. ? Dust extraction is via a 4” port which I have found sufficient when paired with my RL-160. As you can see from the manual, the feed rate can be changed from low 15 fpm to high 32 fpm by swapping gears. ?The feed mechanism and table moves up/down with a manual hand crank to adjust for stock thickness. ? When I bought mine, there were two choices for the elevation system in terms of how far the table would move for each turn of the crank. ?The choices were 0.20 or 0.40mm elevation change per revolution of the crank. ?I opted for the finer control and glad I did. ? I made a crude but effective hub which I use in conjunction with a cordless drill for quick feed table height changes - see image attached. ?I also added a Wixey digital readout for precise height indication which is crude but effective: ?. ?If I were to do it again, I’d opt for the more expensive?Accurate Technology alternative: ? <WB Drill Drive Hub - 1.jpeg> The machine has a removable platten that is simple but effective. ?Unless I’m sanding rough softwood, I use the patten to press the sanding belt against the material being sanded rather than letting it ride directly against the rubber coated belt drive. ?I have replaced the graphite impregnated cloth on the platten about 3 times in 20 years - Leneave can provide you with a sheet of this stuff when you order the machine. ?Photos attached. ? <Removable Platen - 1.jpeg>? ?<Platen Graphite Cloth - 1.jpeg> I did replace the rubber feed belt after about 20 years. ?Leneave has a relationship with a feed belt manufacturer and provided a replacement from them that was a breeze to install since it was designed to eliminate the need to disassemble parts of the sander like the original belt would have required. ?? The material feed system has two pressure rollers that force the material down against the feed belt to ensure good traction. ?The height of these rollers can be adjusted, and if not properly set, you can get leading or trailing edge snipe. ?Given what you’ve been through with your KF700 calibration, this would be a simple adjustment, but probably is not necessary until the feed belt is worn down substantially. ? The brothers that own/operate Leneave are terrific to deal with. ?Hope this helps. ? David Best DBestWorkshop@... https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/ https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best On Sep 12, 2024, at 1:28?PM, mariusz_m via groups.io <mariusz_m@...> wrote: David, just called Leneave - they have no idea if there is someone in my neighborhood that might carry it, but interestingly enough they might be able to sell and ship it to me directly from Taiwan. We need to figure out the cost, logistics and if it would make any sense to do it, but that is an option. Have you had any issues with it? I’m only asking because I would be a bit concerned about parts. They could configure it for me for 3 phase 400V. Thank you for your help! Mariusz
Re: Drum sanders David P. Best All Messages By This Member #137538 开云体育 Mariusz, I have not had any major issues with the North State sander. ?Mine is 3-phase with the 7.5 HP motor which appeared to me to have several voltage alternatives with wiring configuration changes noted on the electrical cover on the motor. ? I’m attaching the user manual for the Powermatic equivalent - parts are interchangeable and available from Powermatic or from Leneave. ? If I were in your situation, I would ask Leneave to include a replacement rubber membrane for the air valve assembly - you can see it on page 18 in the attached marked as item #26. ?If you don’t already know, this sander requires compressed air which is used to sense the position of the sanding belt and drive the oscillation of the upper idler roller that slews the belts from side-to-side. ?I previously posted some information on how to adjust the slew rates at this link: ?? ?Click on the images to see a detailed description, and there is a simple video showing the belt oscillator operation when properly adjusted. ? Dust extraction is via a 4” port which I have found sufficient when paired with my RL-160. As you can see from the manual, the feed rate can be changed from low 15 fpm to high 32 fpm by swapping gears. ?The feed mechanism and table moves up/down with a manual hand crank to adjust for stock thickness. ? When I bought mine, there were two choices for the elevation system in terms of how far the table would move for each turn of the crank. ?The choices were 0.20 or 0.40mm elevation change per revolution of the crank. ?I opted for the finer control and glad I did. ? I made a crude but effective hub which I use in conjunction with a cordless drill for quick feed table height changes - see image attached. ?I also added a Wixey digital readout for precise height indication which is crude but effective: ?. ?If I were to do it again, I’d opt for the more expensive?Accurate Technology alternative: ? The machine has a removable platten that is simple but effective. ?Unless I’m sanding rough softwood, I use the patten to press the sanding belt against the material being sanded rather than letting it ride directly against the rubber coated belt drive. ?I have replaced the graphite impregnated cloth on the platten about 3 times in 20 years - Leneave can provide you with a sheet of this stuff when you order the machine. ?Photos attached. ? ? ? I did replace the rubber feed belt after about 20 years. ?Leneave has a relationship with a feed belt manufacturer and provided a replacement from them that was a breeze to install since it was designed to eliminate the need to disassemble parts of the sander like the original belt would have required. ?? The material feed system has two pressure rollers that force the material down against the feed belt to ensure good traction. ?The height of these rollers can be adjusted, and if not properly set, you can get leading or trailing edge snipe. ?Given what you’ve been through with your KF700 calibration, this would be a simple adjustment, but probably is not necessary until the feed belt is worn down substantially. ? The brothers that own/operate Leneave are terrific to deal with. ?Hope this helps. ? David Best DBestWorkshop@... https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/ https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Sep 12, 2024, at 1:28?PM, mariusz_m via groups.io <mariusz_m@...> wrote: David, just called Leneave - they have no idea if there is someone in my neighborhood that might carry it, but interestingly enough they might be able to sell and ship it to me directly from Taiwan. We need to figure out the cost, logistics and if it would make any sense to do it, but that is an option. Have you had any issues with it? I’m only asking because I would be a bit concerned about parts. They could configure it for me for 3 phase 400V. Thank you for your help! Mariusz
Re: Drum sanders Bob Wise All Messages By This Member #137537 Thanks for the pointer to the CWI/sandx brand. The 26" wide version of the dual drum looks decent at a price quite a bit below the powermatic. toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 12:24?PM PK via <pk=[email protected]> wrote: Mariusz, ? I have had all three that people are talking about and my brother has the open end wide belt from Powermatic. ? I started with a Performax 22-44.? It worked well.? It is slow and the electronics to modulate the belt speed failed once.? We decided to re-engineer the controller, as it seemed pretty fragile electrically. ? I then bought a Sand-X 37" dual drum sander from CWI in Canada.? This is sold under many brands with slight differences.? Powermatic sells it, but decided to put the drive belts in the sanding envelope, CWI puts the belts in an enclosure outside the sanding envelope.? This machine has far more power and is significantly faster than the open end drum sanders.? These models come with rubber drums to manage heat better, offer better sandpaper connection and solid dust collection.? They also do not have an electronic system to slow the infeed roller motor.? There is no circuit board to fry, but if you are not careful, you can burn a belt pretty badly.? I really liked it, shipping was cheap and the support was good.? Powermatic also sells it in the version Bob is looking at, a dual drum 25".? It is the same machine with less width to the sander.? The scratch pattern is the same as a Performax or any other open end drum sander that does not oscillate. ? My brother found the open ended Powermatic 16" sander used and in great condition.? It is the same as the NorthState that David was talking about earlier.? He too likes it and uses it in a production fashion.? The scratch pattern is better because the belt oscillates. ? I then found a great deal on a used? 37" wide belt.? I realize that there are huge upgrades to dust collection and power to accommodate them, but a wide belt is just next level with finish quality and precision. ? For you, I would find a Powermatic clone open end wide belt (used, they do come up) or a double drum like Bob is talking about. ? ? PK ?
Re: Wax/oil finishes David Luckensmeyer All Messages By This Member #137536 开云体育 Hi Joe: ? I hope you’re well! ? I think your approach of rolling and leaving for a while is a good one. I’ve found the 4mm nap is demonstrably better than even 5mm nap, so the shorter the better. What you describe works likely because of that film you mentioned, but also being able to get the silky finish from wiping. I was astounded at how well the scrubby pads, or white polishing pads worked. Dip it in the oil, and rub the surface until dry. I did not have to use a rag to remove the excess as the pad “rubbed it in” or “rubbed it away” (however you want to describe it). ? I’m curious about your reference to Saicos being similar to Osmo. I found Saicos to be harder in the durability tests, whereas Osmo was worst or equal worst with Livos. Saicos seemed to put down thinner coats – it is a strange gray colour that feels “slick” when applying. It does not like to be rubbed in as well, and seemed to skate across the surface more than other finishes. When wiping off, the “sheen” was more matt than I like. But Saicos does like to be rolled, so I’m wondering whether your hybrid application approach is paying off here? ? Are you using the hardener additive? And the UV additive? I did not play with either of those. However, Saicos was terrible in the water resistance and red wine testing, when padded, but better when rolled. ? I wanted to conclude in my review: “I find it hard to recommend this oil” but the editor said this was too pejorative and just let the results do the talking. ? There is one thing going for Saicos. It is dirt cheap comparatively. ? Warm regards, Lucky ? Dr David Luckensmeyer ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Joe Calhoon via groups.io <joecalhoon@...> Date: Thursday, 12 September 2024 at 22:29 To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FOG] Wax/oil finishes I’ve been using hard wax oil finishes for my interior work for a while now. My process is to apply one coat with a microfiber roller and not wipe it off. Let it set for a couple days and flatten it with 320 followed by a couple coats that are wiped off. On table surfaces I do the first step twice. Not how they recommend applying but I think it builds a little film that might help with resistance to various liquids. I still think with these finishes liquids that stand on surfaces for a while will cause damage. Easily repairable though. I’m using Saicos which seems very similar to Osmo. I look at my cherry dining table that was finished with conversion varnish and been through my kids and now grandkids. It looked good for a few years but rough now and will have to be taken down to bare wood for a refinish sometime. I have a full on booth and Kremlin Triple A but trying to be done with film finishes. My current shop project is a dark stained commercial bar in quartered oak. Using Rubio on that because I like the way their stain goes on even. I don’t buy into their one coat system and going to use the sheen enhancer on the verticals and thinking about more protection on the countertops because of a commercial application. I know they don’t advise going over this with anything but plan on doing a sample with poly to see if any issues.
Re: Drum sanders mariusz_m All Messages By This Member #137535 Thanks Mac. Steve Rowe suggested the same company a bit earlier. It looks like they build quality equipment, but they are not cheap. The smaller of the two open ended drum sanders, the Cindy 300, after taxes is just short of $20000 which is a bit too steep for me. Used ones do come up occasionally, but 99% of the time they come from professional shops and are beat to death, unfortunately.?
Re: Wax/oil finishes David Luckensmeyer All Messages By This Member #137534 开云体育 Hi Brian: ? Hey, I’m glad you were able to access the review. I have used Osmo a lot, particularly the UV version which actually does hold up fairly well in direct sunlight (read: it is not magic and does not last more than 1-2 years depending on how much sun it gets). ? Osmo is very soft. I’ve experienced this from use, and also in the durability tested for the review. Livos and Osmo were the worst. ? With Rubio, I thought I was going to love it, particularly because so many rave about it, and it is so durable, but I just don’t like the look. Beware that it is not just matt but VERY matt. If that’s your thing, then it will be well received. Personally, I like a satin-matt, or a “just-rubbed-out-wax” look. Livos, Odies Oil, Fiddes and Whittles gives that look. Feast Watson and Saicos are more matt, but Rubio is as matt as it gets. Keep that in mind. ? For that reason, I won’t be using Rubio on my dining room table. Odies Oil was amazing in the tests, but I’ve heard plenty of anecdotal evidence that it does not last. Easy on, easy renew – not for me. For my next dining room tables I’m going to use either Fiddes or Whittle Waxes. Both are very hard, both have lovely sheen, both are very water resistant (with Fiddes slightly better) and Whittles can be padded out more easily than Fiddes (which really wants to be rolled or brushed). But Fiddes is hard, hard. It dried the hardest and fastest in the drying tests. ? Bottom line, none of these oils is bad (except Saicos in my opinion, which I’ll write about in a minute), but they are all different. The user needs to decide which characteristic he/she values most. ? Warm regards, Lucky ? Dr David Luckensmeyer ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of ibsenafshar via groups.io <brian@...> Date: Thursday, 12 September 2024 at 13:45 To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FOG] Wax/oil finishes David, Many/most libraries subscribe to the Overdrive/Libby system which gives them access to ~3 million titles, Seattle is one of those cities and I was able to read the magazine including the article. I was trying to use the article to see if I needed to switch up from being a 100% Osmo user. My conclusion is I need to get some Rubio 2 part and get some experience with it for projects needing a lot of protection but the ease of use will keep Osmo in use for most of my small projects, which are many, tiny inlaid silver wedding ring boxes for example. In general Osmo has held up very well everywhere I've used it. Seems like the Rubio would be great for my large dining table refinish this winter. In any case it would be interesting and valuable to hear which hardwax people are using and most importantly why. I hope you will consider putting your samples out in the weather for a year or two and reporting on the outcome.?
Re: Drum sanders mac campshure All Messages By This Member #137533 开云体育 martin/campshure/co/llc mac campshure 7412 elmwood ave. middleton, wi 53562-3106 608-332-2330?cell airtightclamps@... Designing and building for 50 years toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Sep 12, 2024, at 4:23?PM, mac campshure <mac512002@...> wrote: ?I think these folks are in your neck of the woods?

martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330?cell

airtightclamps@...

Designing and building for 50 years

On Sep 12, 2024, at 3:28?PM, mariusz_m via groups.io <mariusz_m@...> wrote:

?
David, just called Leneave - they have no idea if there is someone in my neighborhood that might carry it, but interestingly enough they might be able to sell and ship it to me directly from Taiwan. We need to figure out the cost, logistics and if it would make any sense to do it, but that is an option. Have you had any issues with it? I’m only asking because I would be a bit concerned about parts. They could configure it for me for 3 phase 400V. Thank you for your help!

Mariusz