I like DRO on Xcut. You get exact repeat, at least as long as you don’t remove the xcut fence or change blade. For trimming, if I can measure the diff with caliper, it is one and done.
The criticism is the weight of the digital xcut fence, so why not get Brian’s DRO flipstop. You get an excellent machined flipstop (replacing Felder’s need to bang into 90 deg) with DRO while keeping the std light weight fence. As discussed, not many need the DRO beyond the main fence (w/o extension).
If you are cheap like some of us, just make a DRO holder and attach it to Felder flip stop for $100. It won’t be a quality DRO, like Fiama, that Brian uses but it works as long as you are willing to change batteries every 4-6 months and possibly need to replace the DRO (for $50) if it craps out in few yrs.
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Show quoted text
On Feb 8, 2024, at 12:44?AM, netanel.belgazal@... wrote: ?Thank you David for the detailed answer.
It assures my initial thought. My initial thought was that cuts longer than 72” aren’t that common and are mainly for rough cuts or don’t really require the 0.1mm accuracy.
(Today I mainly use my Kapex long cuts)
I intend to use the mobile cart to store the xcut fence, so that is another reason to go with the analog fence.
|
Re: Felder K700S (and others) Wenge Zero Clearance Inserts
I also remain interested.
|
Having the digital extension is crucial in our use regularly,KF700SP, doing a lot of entry-door and large table trim/cut work. Most of the need is just enough to pull out the extension in the first 600mm, rarely more.
The rule is generally to leave the extension out in the job setup until the job is done/installed. The big crosscut fence sticks out into otherwise uninterrupted space and blocks easy?walking when not in use, but it's always ready to go. If we entertained removing/reinstalling setups I surmise the solution to be a large horizontal rack/shelf along a wall. -- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Thank you David for the detailed answer.
It assures my initial thought. My initial thought was that cuts longer than 72” aren’t that common and are mainly for rough cuts or don’t really require the 0.1mm accuracy.
(Today I mainly use my Kapex long cuts)
I intend to use the mobile cart to store the xcut fence, so that is another reason to go with the analog fence.
|
I’ll answer that with a qualified “no”. ?I have it, it adds substantial weight to the crosscut fence which compounds the issues of moving the fence to angled positions. ?It also makes the outrigger table impossible move onto the rolling carriage (mobility cart) with the crosscut fence still attached. ?Even though I have that option, I have removed it from my crosscut fence for two basic reasons: ? 1. I don’t believe I have ever needed to crosscut something to more than 77-inches long and need the accuracy of ±0.005” provided by the DRO on the extension (which is why I got a digital crosscut fence in the first place).
2. I don’t feel safe moving the outrigger table to the mobility cart with the extension installed, because it adds substantial weight to the top-end of the unit. ?See this for more detail: ?https://flic.kr/s/aHskkZM2iv
Illustration - that beast is very top heavy - and encountering a drywall (or other) screw on the floor with the wheels will cause the entire rig to topple over - it’s just too top heavy:
NB: removing it from the crosscut fence extrusion is not trivial given the internal DRO components. ?
Now, if you are building things with long dimensions (over 77”) on a routine basis, and need the additional accuracy of the DRO, AND ALSO, don’t plan on using the mobility cart, then that’s a different story. ?So ask yourself if you fall in that category. ?If not, you might be very happy with the conventional analog-type telescoping extension which is what I normally recommend unless there are “special circumstances".
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Feb 7, 2024, at 7:39?PM, netanel.belgazal@... wrote:
For people who have Felder’s DRO on the extension of the xcut fence.
Do you find it useful?
|
I have never used mine except to change the battery. But I’m only a hobbyist.
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Show quoted text
On Feb 7, 2024, at 20:39, netanel.belgazal@... wrote:
?For people who have Felder’s DRO on the extension of the xcut fence.
Do you find it useful?
|
For people who have Felder’s DRO on the extension of the xcut fence.
Do you find it useful?
|
Re: Felder K700S (and others) Wenge Zero Clearance Inserts
Did this ever happen?? Still interested if available.
On Tue, Jan 2, 2024 at 11:30?AM Bryan Crum via <bryancrum11= [email protected]> wrote: I'd also like a couple for a K500 if you can make?them.? Price set yet?
Bryan Crum
On Tue, Jan 2, 2024 at 8:10?AM Bob Wise < bob@...> wrote: Me, too. bob@.... Will they fit a 2006?
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Mac, can I pick that up when I get your saw?? Dave
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Detail station:
Here are a few picks of a small 4” belt sander I re built and modified an old PORTER-CABLE ?/Engelberg for detail work in my lab.
Modifications :
Table over direct drive motor .?
XY ignus parts table , indexing miter guide?
Mobil base , led light hood dust colection to Torit, also shown small German drill grinder .
Other grinding stuff:
?do have bigger stuff at my shop 24” master?
Disk with dust colection , 18” Oliver in parts in box large double spindle grinder and buffers a long with 6”x 5’ Kalamazoo belt ,
Grinder and various other 6,8,10” pedestal grinders , German Sthele tool grinder, 6x18 Coval auto ?surface grinder.?
sterling 2” max drill grinder .
Designing and building for 50 years
On Feb 6, 2024, at 10:22?PM, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Edited tolerance. It is +/- 0.005” not +/-0.010”]
It has been on my list to add a disc sander. My current use will be to cleanup band sawn templates. Couple of yrs ago, I tried the oscillating belt sander from HD. After trying 2, I gave up on the combo (spindle/belt) idea and bought the bench top oscillating
spindle sander, Jet JOBS-5. I have been very happy with it.
A 25% off no exclusions coupon from HF started this exercise. Bought the following 12” disc sander for $150:
12 in., 1-1/4 HP Disc Sander ( https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-1-14-hp-disc-sander-58862.html )
harborfreight.com ( https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-1-14-hp-disc-sander-58862.html )
First one was not usable, casting feature for the table attachment was bad and the AL table was way beyond flat. 2nd unit, casting is good and the table is still unusable. I removed the sanding disc, cleaned the sticky crap off and measured the run off.
Half way from center is +/- 0.004” and near outside perimeter it is +/- 0.010”. You can feel the bumps easily on the outer perimeter. If I keep this I will have to build or fix the table. The disc is cast iron and has milling marks like a record. I may be
able to sand the high spot some and reduce the overall runout. T he unit feels solid in operation and runs w/o noticeable vibration. The dust collection port does not match my shop vac but I can probably rig something up. The disc runs at 1750 RPM and is directly
mounted to the motor shaft.
Not satisfied, did more research and this PC model available at Lowe’s looked promising for $250:
PORTER-CABLE 4-in x 36-in Belt 5-Amp Benchtop Sander Lowes.com ( https://www.lowes.com/pd/PORTER-CABLE-5-Amp-Benchtop-Sander/3163789?srsltid=AfmBOorkmuvu_DtakbBY7KHg00IY5ioIqinmsynDnZtSYvLWN8JOvxiM0Ns )
lowes.com ( https://www.lowes.com/pd/PORTER-CABLE-5-Amp-Benchtop-Sander/3163789?srsltid=AfmBOorkmuvu_DtakbBY7KHg00IY5ioIqinmsynDnZtSYvLWN8JOvxiM0Ns )
00558292.jpg ( https://www.lowes.com/pd/PORTER-CABLE-5-Amp-Benchtop-Sander/3163789?srsltid=AfmBOorkmuvu_DtakbBY7KHg00IY5ioIqinmsynDnZtSYvLWN8JOvxiM0Ns )
It is a nice little unit. Both tables are AL and flat. The casting feature for the table attachment is much improved but still works like what you would expect on a $250 machine. Interestingly, belt needs tracking adjustment between horizontal and vertical
positions but it is not dangerously off and single knob makes adj a breeze. The runout near center, middle and near outer perimeter is 3, 7 & 10 thousands of an inch. The disc however is AL. It has a single port for dust collection and my shop vac fits. Disc
runs at 3450 RPM and belt at 2160 RPM.
I like that it has a disc and a belt. I removed the discs and cleaned the plates on both sanders. While cleaning process is okay, I absolutely do not think it is something I would do to change grit. I assume no one does this, unless I am missing some
trick. I did look into H&L but appears that enough heat can generated under heavy use to melt the backing pad and some also think it makes the disc too soft (as in having give). Therefore, having 2 sanding options appeal to me as I could place 2 different
grits.
Following from Maksiwa also looks promising for $285.
LD.300, Maksiwa 12 in. Disc Sander, 1HP, 1 Phase ( https://beavertools.com/ld-300-maksiwa-12-disc-sander-1hp-1-phase.html?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAnfmsBhDfARIsAM7MKi2Pzouq0e6mSxKBrX6sNT3qNC6ySGJacSUJtxgMEdw2CcYZcZazX-UaAhs9EALw_wcB )
beavertools.com ( https://beavertools.com/ld-300-maksiwa-12-disc-sander-1hp-1-phase.html?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAnfmsBhDfARIsAM7MKi2Pzouq0e6mSxKBrX6sNT3qNC6ySGJacSUJtxgMEdw2CcYZcZazX-UaAhs9EALw_wcB )
I have written to Maksiwa and asked if they can share the flatness specs of disc and table. They acknowledged receipt but I likely won’t hear back until next week. I am reluctant to buy t his and some others (Grizzly) because they are not locally available.
All of these may actually be built by the same company, so chances of getting an acceptable product in this price range is low and I do not want to deal with shipping back. Oh! while this comes with manual brake and cast iron table, the disc is AL.
Since I have not had a machine like this, I not only lack experience to make a good call, I am also not thinking of other possible uses. So I thought, I check with the collective wisdom here. What should I do? I really do not have room for a stationary
machine and would like to keep my outlay low. I looked for used but nothing exciting came up in my area.
Appreciate your feedback.
Imran Malik
https://www.facebook.com/groups/362481112015700/?ref=share
Feb 6th 2024 Update:
Maksiwa got back to me but the guy could not tell me anything more than what’s published. Credit to Grizzly for actually posting a tol on disc for $650 G0702 and it is 0.21mm. Then I found Shop Fox W1812 that is not in their catalog but it is on their
website for $352. Being half the price I asked for its spec and they said it is same. So I decided to order it. Not sure why, I thought I do a last check on net for this model and guess what Grizzly sells it on Amazon so shipping was free ($70 if one orders
from Grizzly) and so was the return. So got it thru Amazon.
https://www.grizzly.com/products/shop-fox-12-disc-sander/w1828
Well the machine came well packaged but it turned out to be the worst +/- 0.030” wobble and table was also about the same with middle high. I wrote to Grizzly and they offered a new disc and table. These arrived today. Table is near perfect and the disc
is acceptable, it is +/- 0.0035” at 5” out but goes to +/- 0.005” near the outer edge. Another diff is that all 4 discs that were bad were warped as the high and low areas from near center to outside were close to 180 deg apart. This disc has random variation.
So I am keeping it. In case, anyone is interested the disc is AL not cast iron but the thanks is cast iron.
|
Hi Mac:
?
I absolutely love it when you share pictures of your shop, and your machines. They really don’t make them like they used to. Not only do I enjoy the nostalgia of looking at commercial machinery, but your modifications
and processes also help me think outside the box and not settle for mediocre. Thank you for sharing!
?
?
Here are a few picks of a small 4” belt sander I re built and modified an old PORTER-CABLE ?/Engelberg for detail work in my lab.
Table over direct drive motor .?
XY ignus parts table , indexing miter guide?
Mobil base , led light hood dust colection to Torit, also shown small German drill grinder .
?do have bigger stuff at my shop 24” master?
Disk with dust colection , 18” Oliver in parts in box large double spindle grinder and buffers a long with 6”x 5’ Kalamazoo belt ,
Grinder and various other 6,8,10” pedestal grinders , German Sthele tool grinder, 6x18 Coval auto ?surface grinder.?
sterling 2” max drill grinder .
?
martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330?cell
Designing and building for 50 years
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 6, 2024, at 10:22?PM, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Edited tolerance. It is +/- 0.005” not +/-0.010”]
It has been on my list to add a disc sander. My current use will be to cleanup band sawn templates. Couple of yrs ago, I tried the oscillating belt sander from HD. After trying 2, I gave up on the combo (spindle/belt) idea and bought the bench top oscillating
spindle sander, Jet JOBS-5. I have been very happy with it.
A 25% off no exclusions coupon from HF started this exercise. Bought the following 12” disc sander for $150:
12 in., 1-1/4 HP Disc Sander ( https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-1-14-hp-disc-sander-58862.html )
harborfreight.com ( https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-1-14-hp-disc-sander-58862.html )
First one was not usable, casting feature for the table attachment was bad and the AL table was way beyond flat. 2nd unit, casting is good and the table is still unusable. I removed the sanding disc, cleaned the sticky crap off and measured the run off. Half
way from center is +/- 0.004” and near outside perimeter it is +/- 0.010”. You can feel the bumps easily on the outer perimeter. If I keep this I will have to build or fix the table. The disc is cast iron and has milling marks like a record. I may be able
to sand the high spot some and reduce the overall runout. T he unit feels solid in operation and runs w/o noticeable vibration. The dust collection port does not match my shop vac but I can probably rig something up. The disc runs at 1750 RPM and is directly
mounted to the motor shaft.
Not satisfied, did more research and this PC model available at Lowe’s looked promising for $250:
PORTER-CABLE 4-in x 36-in Belt 5-Amp Benchtop Sander Lowes.com ( https://www.lowes.com/pd/PORTER-CABLE-5-Amp-Benchtop-Sander/3163789?srsltid=AfmBOorkmuvu_DtakbBY7KHg00IY5ioIqinmsynDnZtSYvLWN8JOvxiM0Ns )
lowes.com ( https://www.lowes.com/pd/PORTER-CABLE-5-Amp-Benchtop-Sander/3163789?srsltid=AfmBOorkmuvu_DtakbBY7KHg00IY5ioIqinmsynDnZtSYvLWN8JOvxiM0Ns )
00558292.jpg ( https://www.lowes.com/pd/PORTER-CABLE-5-Amp-Benchtop-Sander/3163789?srsltid=AfmBOorkmuvu_DtakbBY7KHg00IY5ioIqinmsynDnZtSYvLWN8JOvxiM0Ns )
It is a nice little unit. Both tables are AL and flat. The casting feature for the table attachment is much improved but still works like what you would expect on a $250 machine. Interestingly, belt needs tracking adjustment between horizontal and vertical
positions but it is not dangerously off and single knob makes adj a breeze. The runout near center, middle and near outer perimeter is 3, 7 & 10 thousands of an inch. The disc however is AL. It has a single port for dust collection and my shop vac fits. Disc
runs at 3450 RPM and belt at 2160 RPM.
I like that it has a disc and a belt. I removed the discs and cleaned the plates on both sanders. While cleaning process is okay, I absolutely do not think it is something I would do to change grit. I assume no one does this, unless I am missing some trick.
I did look into H&L but appears that enough heat can generated under heavy use to melt the backing pad and some also think it makes the disc too soft (as in having give). Therefore, having 2 sanding options appeal to me as I could place 2 different grits.
Following from Maksiwa also looks promising for $285.
LD.300, Maksiwa 12 in. Disc Sander, 1HP, 1 Phase ( https://beavertools.com/ld-300-maksiwa-12-disc-sander-1hp-1-phase.html?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAnfmsBhDfARIsAM7MKi2Pzouq0e6mSxKBrX6sNT3qNC6ySGJacSUJtxgMEdw2CcYZcZazX-UaAhs9EALw_wcB )
beavertools.com ( https://beavertools.com/ld-300-maksiwa-12-disc-sander-1hp-1-phase.html?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAnfmsBhDfARIsAM7MKi2Pzouq0e6mSxKBrX6sNT3qNC6ySGJacSUJtxgMEdw2CcYZcZazX-UaAhs9EALw_wcB )
I have written to Maksiwa and asked if they can share the flatness specs of disc and table. They acknowledged receipt but I likely won’t hear back until next week. I am reluctant to buy t his and some others (Grizzly) because they are not locally available.
All of these may actually be built by the same company, so chances of getting an acceptable product in this price range is low and I do not want to deal with shipping back. Oh! while this comes with manual brake and cast iron table, the disc is AL.
Since I have not had a machine like this, I not only lack experience to make a good call, I am also not thinking of other possible uses. So I thought, I check with the collective wisdom here. What should I do? I really do not have room for a stationary machine
and would like to keep my outlay low. I looked for used but nothing exciting came up in my area.
Appreciate your feedback.
Imran Malik
https://www.facebook.com/groups/362481112015700/?ref=share
Feb 6th 2024 Update:
Maksiwa got back to me but the guy could not tell me anything more than what’s published. Credit to Grizzly for actually posting a tol on disc for $650 G0702 and it is 0.21mm. Then I found Shop Fox W1812 that is not in their catalog but it is on their website
for $352. Being half the price I asked for its spec and they said it is same. So I decided to order it. Not sure why, I thought I do a last check on net for this model and guess what Grizzly sells it on Amazon so shipping was free ($70 if one orders from Grizzly)
and so was the return. So got it thru Amazon.
https://www.grizzly.com/products/shop-fox-12-disc-sander/w1828
Well the machine came well packaged but it turned out to be the worst +/- 0.030” wobble and table was also about the same with middle high. I wrote to Grizzly and they offered a new disc and table. These arrived today. Table is near perfect and the disc is
acceptable, it is +/- 0.0035” at 5” out but goes to +/- 0.005” near the outer edge. Another diff is that all 4 discs that were bad were warped as the high and low areas from near center to outside were close to 180 deg apart. This disc has random variation.
So I am keeping it. In case, anyone is interested the disc is AL not cast iron but the thanks is cast iron.
|
Detail station: Here are a few picks of a small 4” belt sander I re built and modified an old PORTER-CABLE ?/Engelberg for detail work in my lab. Modifications : Table over direct drive motor .? XY ignus parts table , indexing miter guide? Mobil base , led light hood dust colection to Torit, also shown small German drill grinder . Other grinding stuff: ?do have bigger stuff at my shop 24” master? Disk with dust colection , 18” Oliver in parts in box large double spindle grinder and buffers a long with 6”x 5’ Kalamazoo belt , Grinder and various other 6,8,10” pedestal grinders , German Sthele tool grinder, 6x18 Coval auto ?surface grinder.? sterling 2” max drill grinder .
Designing and building for 50 years
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 6, 2024, at 10:22?PM, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Edited tolerance. It is +/- 0.005” not +/-0.010”]
It has been on my list to add a disc sander. My current use will be to cleanup band sawn templates. Couple of yrs ago, I tried the oscillating belt sander from HD. After trying 2, I gave up on the combo (spindle/belt) idea and bought the bench top oscillating spindle sander, Jet JOBS-5. I have been very happy with it.
A 25% off no exclusions coupon from HF started this exercise. Bought the following 12” disc sander for $150:
12 in., 1-1/4 HP Disc Sander ( https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-1-14-hp-disc-sander-58862.html )
harborfreight.com ( https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-1-14-hp-disc-sander-58862.html )
First one was not usable, casting feature for the table attachment was bad and the AL table was way beyond flat. 2nd unit, casting is good and the table is still unusable. I removed the sanding disc, cleaned the sticky crap off and measured the run off. Half way from center is +/- 0.004” and near outside perimeter it is +/- 0.010”. You can feel the bumps easily on the outer perimeter. If I keep this I will have to build or fix the table. The disc is cast iron and has milling marks like a record. I may be able to sand the high spot some and reduce the overall runout. T he unit feels solid in operation and runs w/o noticeable vibration. The dust collection port does not match my shop vac but I can probably rig something up. The disc runs at 1750 RPM and is directly mounted to the motor shaft.
Not satisfied, did more research and this PC model available at Lowe’s looked promising for $250:
PORTER-CABLE 4-in x 36-in Belt 5-Amp Benchtop Sander Lowes.com ( https://www.lowes.com/pd/PORTER-CABLE-5-Amp-Benchtop-Sander/3163789?srsltid=AfmBOorkmuvu_DtakbBY7KHg00IY5ioIqinmsynDnZtSYvLWN8JOvxiM0Ns )
lowes.com ( https://www.lowes.com/pd/PORTER-CABLE-5-Amp-Benchtop-Sander/3163789?srsltid=AfmBOorkmuvu_DtakbBY7KHg00IY5ioIqinmsynDnZtSYvLWN8JOvxiM0Ns )
00558292.jpg ( https://www.lowes.com/pd/PORTER-CABLE-5-Amp-Benchtop-Sander/3163789?srsltid=AfmBOorkmuvu_DtakbBY7KHg00IY5ioIqinmsynDnZtSYvLWN8JOvxiM0Ns )
It is a nice little unit. Both tables are AL and flat. The casting feature for the table attachment is much improved but still works like what you would expect on a $250 machine. Interestingly, belt needs tracking adjustment between horizontal and vertical positions but it is not dangerously off and single knob makes adj a breeze. The runout near center, middle and near outer perimeter is 3, 7 & 10 thousands of an inch. The disc however is AL. It has a single port for dust collection and my shop vac fits. Disc runs at 3450 RPM and belt at 2160 RPM.
I like that it has a disc and a belt. I removed the discs and cleaned the plates on both sanders. While cleaning process is okay, I absolutely do not think it is something I would do to change grit. I assume no one does this, unless I am missing some trick. I did look into H&L but appears that enough heat can generated under heavy use to melt the backing pad and some also think it makes the disc too soft (as in having give). Therefore, having 2 sanding options appeal to me as I could place 2 different grits.
Following from Maksiwa also looks promising for $285.
LD.300, Maksiwa 12 in. Disc Sander, 1HP, 1 Phase ( https://beavertools.com/ld-300-maksiwa-12-disc-sander-1hp-1-phase.html?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAnfmsBhDfARIsAM7MKi2Pzouq0e6mSxKBrX6sNT3qNC6ySGJacSUJtxgMEdw2CcYZcZazX-UaAhs9EALw_wcB )
beavertools.com ( https://beavertools.com/ld-300-maksiwa-12-disc-sander-1hp-1-phase.html?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAnfmsBhDfARIsAM7MKi2Pzouq0e6mSxKBrX6sNT3qNC6ySGJacSUJtxgMEdw2CcYZcZazX-UaAhs9EALw_wcB )
I have written to Maksiwa and asked if they can share the flatness specs of disc and table. They acknowledged receipt but I likely won’t hear back until next week. I am reluctant to buy t his and some others (Grizzly) because they are not locally available. All of these may actually be built by the same company, so chances of getting an acceptable product in this price range is low and I do not want to deal with shipping back. Oh! while this comes with manual brake and cast iron table, the disc is AL.
Since I have not had a machine like this, I not only lack experience to make a good call, I am also not thinking of other possible uses. So I thought, I check with the collective wisdom here. What should I do? I really do not have room for a stationary machine and would like to keep my outlay low. I looked for used but nothing exciting came up in my area.
Appreciate your feedback.
Imran Malik
https://www.facebook.com/groups/362481112015700/?ref=share
Feb 6th 2024 Update:
Maksiwa got back to me but the guy could not tell me anything more than what’s published. Credit to Grizzly for actually posting a tol on disc for $650 G0702 and it is 0.21mm. Then I found Shop Fox W1812 that is not in their catalog but it is on their website for $352. Being half the price I asked for its spec and they said it is same. So I decided to order it. Not sure why, I thought I do a last check on net for this model and guess what Grizzly sells it on Amazon so shipping was free ($70 if one orders from Grizzly) and so was the return. So got it thru Amazon.
https://www.grizzly.com/products/shop-fox-12-disc-sander/w1828
Well the machine came well packaged but it turned out to be the worst +/- 0.030” wobble and table was also about the same with middle high. I wrote to Grizzly and they offered a new disc and table. These arrived today. Table is near perfect and the disc is acceptable, it is +/- 0.0035” at 5” out but goes to +/- 0.005” near the outer edge. Another diff is that all 4 discs that were bad were warped as the high and low areas from near center to outside were close to 180 deg apart. This disc has random variation. So I am keeping it. In case, anyone is interested the disc is AL not cast iron but the thanks is cast iron.
|
My Dual 51 has a separate motor for feed as it has variable speed feed option.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:51?AM, mac campshure via groups.io <mac512002@...> wrote: ? Is the feed using power from the main motor if so disconnected feed lever first .
Designing and building for 50 years On Feb 7, 2024, at 7:21?AM, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Added brake board to the response]
JP,
The tech has a point but likely did not communicate it well. Motors have service/duty ratings from S1 to S10. My Dual 51 is 7.35 KW S6-40%. Here is the explanation.
S1 Continuous duty The motor operates at a continuous load for sufficient time to enable machine to reach thermal equilibrium. S2 Short Time duty Operation at a load for a time not sufficient to reach thermal equilibrium, followed by enough time for the motor to cool down. S3 Intermittent periodic duty Series of identical duty cycles each a constant load for a period, followed by a rest period. Thermal equilibrium is not reached during the cycle. S4 Intermittent periodic duty with starting Similar to S3, but there is a significant starting time within the periodic operation. S5 Intermittent periodic duty with electric braking Sequence of identical duty cycles - starting, operation, braking and rest.? Again thermal equilibrium is not reached. S6 Continuous operation periodic duty Identical duty cycles with a period at load followed by a period at no load.? Difference between S1 is that the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping. S7 Continuous operation periodic duty with electric braking As per S6, but with a?significant starting and electric breaking periods.? Again motor operates at no-load for? period instead of?stopped. S8 Continuous operation periodic duty with related load/speed changes Series of identical repeating duty cycles, where within each cycle the motor operates at several different load levels and speed. There is not stopped time and thermal equilibrium is not reached. S9 Duty with non-periodic load and speed variations Load and speed vary periodically within the permissible operating range. Frequent overloading may occur. S10 Duty with discrete constant loads and speeds Duty with discrete number of load/speed combinations, with these maintained long enough to reach thermal equilibrium.
Understanding Motor Duty Rating ( https://myelectrical.com/notes/entryid/106/understanding-motor-duty-rating )
myelectrical.com ( https://myelectrical.com/notes/entryid/106/understanding-motor-duty-rating )
Not sure what latest Dual 51 electronics are like but if I have to guess the circuit board tech referred to is likely the brake board. It would get hot with repetitive braking and so would the motor as it is braked with DC current injection.
As for fuse, I imagine we are talking about thermal fuse in the motor. If the motor did not start it likely got hot and needed to cool down to reset the thermal fuse.
As Lucky mentioned, the combo machine is meant to be used where switching function requires motor turn off. This should be fine. Just don’t over do it.
Let me know if you still have a question.
Imran Malik
https://www.facebook.com/groups/362481112015700/?ref=share
On Feb 6, 2024, at 11:48?PM, jppetricca@... wrote:
Hi Guys,
I have a question about our Dual 51. It’s nearly brand new, probably used less than 15 times, as we rarely mill lumber and when we do, it’s often not a lot.
We’ve been using it with our interns over the last two weeks, and recently, it seems like it blows a fuse when trying to turn it on sometimes. I called Felder, and the tech said it’s because you shouldn’t turn the blade on and off very often. He suggested keeping the blade running and, when shutting the machine off, keeping it off for 10 minutes to avoid damaging the circuit board. Because these young men are novice woodworkers and we needed to pause often to give instruction, we were shutting the blade off and turning it back on more frequently than his 10-minute rule.
What are your thoughts on whether this should be happening, and if you all have experience with how often we should be able to turn the blade on and off? I understand it’s best to keep the motor running, but for such an industrial machine, it seems odd this happened with very little use.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
JP
|
Hey JP,
I too have a 1 year old Dual 51. As the other have said it’s a machine that basically has to be turned off, moved and turned on again to continue working.
Lately, I’ve been doing a lot of small projects, joint a few boards then flip it over to plane, on/off, on/off etc. With no problems.
I’d check your circuit, breaker, wire size etc. I’ll say mine is on a dedicated outlet on a 50 amp breaker. Mine is also powered by a 20hp phase perfect.
Years back I had a Minimax Fs41e I believe. It had a similar issue, tripped a breaker in the machines panel at start up. My shop was a little more rough around the edges back then, so my circuit were overloaded and the machines don’t like that.
|
Is the feed using power from the main motor if so disconnected feed lever first .
Designing and building for 50 years
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On Feb 7, 2024, at 7:21?AM, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Added brake board to the response]
JP,
The tech has a point but likely did not communicate it well. Motors have service/duty ratings from S1 to S10. My Dual 51 is 7.35 KW S6-40%. Here is the explanation.
S1 Continuous duty The motor operates at a continuous load for sufficient time to enable machine to reach thermal equilibrium. S2 Short Time duty Operation at a load for a time not sufficient to reach thermal equilibrium, followed by enough time for the motor to cool down. S3 Intermittent periodic duty Series of identical duty cycles each a constant load for a period, followed by a rest period. Thermal equilibrium is not reached during the cycle. S4 Intermittent periodic duty with starting Similar to S3, but there is a significant starting time within the periodic operation. S5 Intermittent periodic duty with electric braking Sequence of identical duty cycles - starting, operation, braking and rest.? Again thermal equilibrium is not reached. S6 Continuous operation periodic duty Identical duty cycles with a period at load followed by a period at no load.? Difference between S1 is that the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping. S7 Continuous operation periodic duty with electric braking As per S6, but with a?significant starting and electric breaking periods.? Again motor operates at no-load for? period instead of?stopped. S8 Continuous operation periodic duty with related load/speed changes Series of identical repeating duty cycles, where within each cycle the motor operates at several different load levels and speed. There is not stopped time and thermal equilibrium is not reached. S9 Duty with non-periodic load and speed variations Load and speed vary periodically within the permissible operating range. Frequent overloading may occur. S10 Duty with discrete constant loads and speeds Duty with discrete number of load/speed combinations, with these maintained long enough to reach thermal equilibrium.
Understanding Motor Duty Rating ( https://myelectrical.com/notes/entryid/106/understanding-motor-duty-rating )
myelectrical.com ( https://myelectrical.com/notes/entryid/106/understanding-motor-duty-rating )
Not sure what latest Dual 51 electronics are like but if I have to guess the circuit board tech referred to is likely the brake board. It would get hot with repetitive braking and so would the motor as it is braked with DC current injection.
As for fuse, I imagine we are talking about thermal fuse in the motor. If the motor did not start it likely got hot and needed to cool down to reset the thermal fuse.
As Lucky mentioned, the combo machine is meant to be used where switching function requires motor turn off. This should be fine. Just don’t over do it.
Let me know if you still have a question.
Imran Malik
https://www.facebook.com/groups/362481112015700/?ref=share
On Feb 6, 2024, at 11:48?PM, jppetricca@... wrote:
Hi Guys,
I have a question about our Dual 51. It’s nearly brand new, probably used less than 15 times, as we rarely mill lumber and when we do, it’s often not a lot.
We’ve been using it with our interns over the last two weeks, and recently, it seems like it blows a fuse when trying to turn it on sometimes. I called Felder, and the tech said it’s because you shouldn’t turn the blade on and off very often. He suggested keeping the blade running and, when shutting the machine off, keeping it off for 10 minutes to avoid damaging the circuit board. Because these young men are novice woodworkers and we needed to pause often to give instruction, we were shutting the blade off and turning it back on more frequently than his 10-minute rule.
What are your thoughts on whether this should be happening, and if you all have experience with how often we should be able to turn the blade on and off? I understand it’s best to keep the motor running, but for such an industrial machine, it seems odd this happened with very little use.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
JP
|
JP,
?
The tech has a point but likely did not communicate it well. Motors have service/duty ratings from S1 to S10. My Dual 51 is 7.35 KW S6-40%. Here is the explanation.?
?
| S1? |
Continuous duty |
The motor operates at a continuous load for sufficient time to enable machine to reach thermal equilibrium.? |
| S2 |
Short Time duty |
Operation at a load for a time not sufficient to reach thermal equilibrium, followed by enough time for the motor to cool down. |
| S3? |
Intermittent periodic duty |
Series of identical duty cycles each a constant load for a period, followed by a rest period. Thermal equilibrium is not reached during the cycle. |
| S4 |
Intermittent periodic duty with starting |
Similar to S3, but there is a significant starting time within the periodic operation. |
| S5 |
Intermittent periodic duty with electric braking |
Sequence of identical duty cycles - starting, operation, braking and rest.? Again thermal equilibrium is not reached. |
| S6 |
Continuous operation periodic duty |
Identical duty cycles with a period at load followed by a period at no load.? Difference between S1 is that the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping. |
| S7 |
Continuous operation periodic duty with electric braking |
As per S6, but with a?significant starting and electric breaking periods.? Again motor operates at no-load for? period instead of?stopped.? |
| S8 |
Continuous operation periodic duty with related load/speed changes |
Series of identical repeating duty cycles, where within each cycle the motor operates at several different load levels and speed. There is not stopped time and thermal equilibrium is not reached. |
| S9 |
Duty with non-periodic load and speed variations???? |
Load and speed vary periodically within the permissible operating range. Frequent overloading may occur. |
| S10 |
Duty with discrete constant loads and speeds |
Duty with discrete number of load/speed combinations, with these maintained long enough to reach thermal equilibrium. |
Not sure what latest Dual 51 electronics are like but if I have to guess the circuit board tech referred to is likely the brake board. It would get hot with repetitive braking and so would the motor as it is braked with DC current injection.
As for fuse, I imagine we are talking about thermal fuse in the motor. If the motor did not start it likely got hot and needed to cool down to reset the thermal fuse.
As Lucky mentioned, the combo machine is meant to be used where switching function requires motor turn off. This should be fine. Just don’t over do it.
Let me know if you still have a question.
On Feb 6, 2024, at 11:48?PM, jppetricca@... wrote:
Hi Guys,
?
I have a question about our Dual 51. It’s nearly brand new, probably used less than 15 times, as we rarely mill lumber and when we do, it’s often not a lot.
?
We’ve been using it with our interns over the last two weeks, and recently, it seems like it blows a fuse when trying to turn it on sometimes. I called Felder, and the tech said it’s because you shouldn’t turn the blade on and off very often. He suggested keeping the blade running and, when shutting the machine off, keeping it off for 10 minutes to avoid damaging the circuit board. Because these young men are novice woodworkers and we needed to pause often to give instruction, we were shutting the blade off and turning it back on more frequently than his 10-minute rule.
?
What are your thoughts on whether this should be happening, and if you all have experience with how often we should be able to turn the blade on and off? I understand it’s best to keep the motor running, but for such an industrial machine, it seems odd this happened with very little use.
?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
?
Thanks,
JP
|
If you’re talking about a fuse being blown at your load center or breaker panel, then you properly have not sized the breaker/fuse to the load of your Dual 51 at start up, or the wiring is undersized for this application. ?If you are indeed talking about a fuse in your breaker panel, and not the more contemporary “circuit breaker”, my guess is you need a “slow blow“ fuse at that end as start-up current draw for a Dual 51 can be substantial for at least 10 seconds. If you have a contemporary circuit breaker that is tripping then you could have a defective circuit breaker or overloaded wiring. ?If that’s your situation, I recommend you bring in a licensed electrician to evaluate your situation.
If the fuse being blown is inside your Dual 51 machine, then there is some kind of fault that would require a technician to evaluate.
You didn’t state whether your machine is single or three phase but I would assume, ?since it’s a Dual 51, you are powering it with three phase. You might elaborate a bit about how you’re generating three phase in your shop and your wiring set-up specifics. ?With a properly sized and protected three phase circuit you should be able to power on and off a 3-phase Dual 51 repeatedly all day long - I certainly can with mine. David Best - via mobile phone?
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On Feb 6, 2024, at 8:48?PM, jppetricca@... wrote:
? Hi Guys,
?
I have a question about our Dual 51. It’s nearly brand new, probably used less than 15 times, as we rarely mill lumber and when we do, it’s often not a lot.
?
We’ve been using it with our interns over the last two weeks, and recently, it seems like it blows a fuse when trying to turn it on sometimes. I called Felder, and the tech said it’s because you shouldn’t turn the blade on and off very often. He suggested keeping the blade running and, when shutting the machine off, keeping it off for 10 minutes to avoid damaging the circuit board. Because these young men are novice woodworkers and we needed to pause often to give instruction, we were shutting the blade off and turning it back on more frequently than his 10-minute rule.
?
What are your thoughts on whether this should be happening, and if you all have experience with how often we should be able to turn the blade on and off? I understand it’s best to keep the motor running, but for such an industrial machine, it seems odd this happened with very little use.
?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
?
Thanks,
JP
|
Hi JP:
?
Definitely not normal. The advice to keep it off for 10 minutes to avoid damaging the circuit board is bull/#$t, for sure. The reason why we both know you’ve been told incorrect information is that the Dual
51 is an over and under style machine. If what the tech said is true, when you are finished flattening a board on the jointer, you turn it off and convert to planer mode, and then wait 10 minutes before turning the machine back on to continue work? Nope and
no way.
?
I’m not sure what you mean by “blows a fuse”. An onboard fuse? Or the start-up trips a ground fault interrupter (‘RCD’ in Australia), or do you mean something else?
?
My Dual 51 was bought new in 2006. I do try not to turn it off during the start-up sequence (maybe 10 seconds). During that time the star/delta does its thing, and the cutter block comes up to full speed.
And while I often turn mine on and leave it running for hours, I also happily turn it on, run a single board through it, and turn it off. Flip the tables, turn it on again, and run the board through one more time. And turn it off again. I could do that process
repeatedly without issue.
?
Of course I wouldn’t sequentially turn off and on my Dual 51 again and again and again. I can imagine that something inside might overheat and break. But I turn on and off my commercial machines as much as
I like in my shop and work without pause for as long as I like. Something is wrong with your machine, or your electrical circuit.
?
Warm regards,
Lucky
?
Dr David Luckensmeyer
?
I have a question about our Dual 51. It’s nearly brand new, probably used less than 15 times, as we rarely mill lumber and when we do, it’s often not a lot.
We’ve been using it with our interns over the last two weeks, and recently, it seems like it blows a fuse when trying to turn it on sometimes. I called Felder, and the tech said it’s because you shouldn’t
turn the blade on and off very often. He suggested keeping the blade running and, when shutting the machine off, keeping it off for 10 minutes to avoid damaging the circuit board. Because these young men are novice woodworkers and we needed to pause often
to give instruction, we were shutting the blade off and turning it back on more frequently than his 10-minute rule.
What are your thoughts on whether this should be happening, and if you all have experience with how often we should be able to turn the blade on and off? I understand it’s best to keep the motor running, but
for such an industrial machine, it seems odd this happened with very little use.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
|
Hi Guys,
?
I have a question about our Dual 51. It’s nearly brand new, probably used less than 15 times, as we rarely mill lumber and when we do, it’s often not a lot.
?
We’ve been using it with our interns over the last two weeks, and recently, it seems like it blows a fuse when trying to turn it on sometimes. I called Felder, and the tech said it’s because you shouldn’t turn the blade on and off very often. He suggested keeping the blade running and, when shutting the machine off, keeping it off for 10 minutes to avoid damaging the circuit board. Because these young men are novice woodworkers and we needed to pause often to give instruction, we were shutting the blade off and turning it back on more frequently than his 10-minute rule.
?
What are your thoughts on whether this should be happening, and if you all have experience with how often we should be able to turn the blade on and off? I understand it’s best to keep the motor running, but for such an industrial machine, it seems odd this happened with very little use.
?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
?
Thanks,
JP
|
James,
Funny you mention that. When I built the last few Big Squeeze few yrs back, I decided to get the oscillating sander and Rigid was my choice because it did both for a reasonable price. I tried 2 and they both made horrible noise. Tech on phone could not figure out the source and just asked me to return it. HD is nearly an hour away from me so I gave up. I know they ship for free but I needed it to finish the build. That is when I bought the Jet Oscillating spindle sander, which is great. I think I will find many uses for this for wood and metal. Now need to find space for it in the shop.
Thanks for the article, I will check it out.?
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On Feb 6, 2024, at 10:49?PM, James Zhu <james.zhu2@...> wrote: ? Imran,
I followed the technique Michael Fortune described in the attached Fine Woodworking article, it does work. Now, I can bandsaw the template (straight or curved) very close to the line.?
I use Ridgid oscillating edge belt/spindle sander (bought years ago at HomeDepot, CAD$200) and DIY flexible sanding pad (made of 2mm and 3mm thick acrylic, cork, 80 grit sanding paper and 3M spray adhesive). It does not take too much effort to get a nice?template done. The flexible?sanding pad works really well to get the smooth curve.
<IMG_4331.JPG> James
[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Well 4 1/2 times is the charm, I thought I just edit this original post to end this saga.]
It has been on my list to add a disc sander. My current use will be to cleanup band sawn templates. Couple of yrs ago, I tried the oscillating belt sander from HD. After trying 2, I gave up on the combo (spindle/belt) idea and bought the bench top oscillating spindle sander, Jet JOBS-5. I have been very happy with it.
A 25% off no exclusions coupon from HF started this exercise. Bought the following 12” disc sander for $150:
12 in., 1-1/4 HP Disc Sander ( )
( )
First one was not usable, casting feature for the table attachment was bad and the AL table was way beyond flat. 2nd unit, casting is good and the table is still unusable. I removed the sanding disc, cleaned the sticky crap off and measured the run off. Half way from center is +/- 0.004” and near outside perimeter it is +/- 0.010”. You can feel the bumps easily on the outer perimeter. If I keep this I will have to build or fix the table. The disc is cast iron and has milling marks like a record. I may be able to sand the high spot some and reduce the overall runout. T he unit feels solid in operation and runs w/o noticeable vibration. The dust collection port does not match my shop vac but I can probably rig something up. The disc runs at 1750 RPM and is directly mounted to the motor shaft.
Not satisfied, did more research and this PC model available at Lowe’s looked promising for $250:
PORTER-CABLE 4-in x 36-in Belt 5-Amp Benchtop Sander Lowes.com ( )
( )
00558292.jpg ( )
It is a nice little unit. Both tables are AL and flat. The casting feature for the table attachment is much improved but still works like what you would expect on a $250 machine. Interestingly, belt needs tracking adjustment between horizontal and vertical positions but it is not dangerously off and single knob makes adj a breeze. The runout near center, middle and near outer perimeter is 3, 7 & 10 thousands of an inch. The disc however is AL. It has a single port for dust collection and my shop vac fits. Disc runs at 3450 RPM and belt at 2160 RPM.
I like that it has a disc and a belt. I removed the discs and cleaned the plates on both sanders. While cleaning process is okay, I absolutely do not think it is something I would do to change grit. I assume no one does this, unless I am missing some trick. I did look into H&L but appears that enough heat can generated under heavy use to melt the backing pad and some also think it makes the disc too soft (as in having give). Therefore, having 2 sanding options appeal to me as I could place 2 different grits.
Following from Maksiwa also looks promising for $285.
LD.300, Maksiwa 12 in. Disc Sander, 1HP, 1 Phase ( )
( )
I have written to Maksiwa and asked if they can share the flatness specs of disc and table. They acknowledged receipt but I likely won’t hear back until next week. I am reluctant to buy t his and some others (Grizzly) because they are not locally available. All of these may actually be built by the same company, so chances of getting an acceptable product in this price range is low and I do not want to deal with shipping back. Oh! while this comes with manual brake and cast iron table, the disc is AL.
Since I have not had a machine like this, I not only lack experience to make a good call, I am also not thinking of other possible uses. So I thought, I check with the collective wisdom here. What should I do? I really do not have room for a stationary machine and would like to keep my outlay low. I looked for used but nothing exciting came up in my area.
Appreciate your feedback.
Imran Malik
Feb 6th 2024 Update:
Maksiwa got back to me but the guy could not tell me anything more than what’s published. Credit to Grizzly for actually posting a tol on disc for $650 G0702 and it is 0.21mm. Then I found Shop Fox W1812 that is not in their catalog but it is on their website for $352. Being half the price I asked for its spec and they said it is same. So I decided to order it. Not sure why, I thought I do a last check on net for this model and guess what Grizzly sells it on Amazon so shipping was free ($70 if one orders from Grizzly) and so was the return. So got it thru Amazon.
Well the machine came well packaged but it turned out to be the worst +/- 0.030” wobble and table was also about the same with middle high. I wrote to Grizzly and they offered a new disc and table. These arrived today. Table is near perfect and the disc is acceptable, it is +/- 0.0035” at 5” out but goes to +/- 0.010” near the outer edge. Another diff is that all 4 discs that were bad were warped as the high and low areas from near center to outside were close to 180 deg apart. This disc has random variation. So I am keeping it. In case, anyone is interested the disc is AL not cast iron but the thanks is cast iron.
<Flawless Curves on the Bandsaw.pdf>
|
imran
Mike
David P. Best
Bill Belanger
David Luckensmeyer
Declan Gallagher
