Re: Looking for a deep shaper cutter

开云体育

Thanks Joe call it what it is ST

martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330?cell

Designing and building for 50 years

On Jan 27, 2024, at 9:27?AM, Joe Calhoon via groups.io <joecalhoon@...> wrote:

?Imran,
Yes to keep the workpiece from either binding or coming away from the fence. Slot and tenon and through tenon the tenon length is critical to avoid clamping problems. Even when the fence is parallel you can still get some variation.

Re: Looking for a deep shaper cutter

#134556

Imran, 
Yes to keep the workpiece from either binding or coming away from the fence. Slot and tenon and through tenon the tenon length is critical to avoid clamping problems. Even when the fence is parallel you can still get some variation.

Re: Looking for a deep shaper cutter

#134555

I've talked about this a number of times over the years, but maybe not here.

If you are aiming for a "rule of thirds" scenario, it can be hard to accomplish with just one Adjustable Groover. ?Typically the minimum groove width that a set can do is AT or often a little wider than the maximum shoulder you could do when you split the set and use it as a tenon tooling to do both cheeks and shoulders at the same time. ?The two components when nested together don't always completely hide behind each other when stacked for minimum groove (ie no shims) and thus the minimum groove can actually a little wider than each individual component that will be used to form the two cheeks and shoulders. ?The different manufacturers make them slightly differently, so this isn't always the case, but even if it isn't, you'll still be really close/at the maximum shoulder height possible and is just a pain and very limiting with respect to the range of material thicknesses you can use. ?The 175x8mm fixed groover I linked to above will give you a bit over 2" DOC and is inexpensive compare to an Adjustable Groover that can do the same job, but offers zero adjustability and doesn't on its own give you a tenon solution. ?A lot of folks will use two adjustable groovers, one for the groove so they can adjust it to roughly ROTs, but also exactly match whatever tenon tooling they are using, and another thicker one to do the tenon with lots of buffer room for cheek height. ?Or they'll use one Adjustable Groover and have the groove/slot just be larger than what a perfect ROTs would say and is probably what I would do in your situation where you need the DOC (reach) that only an 8mm minimum set would offer you. ? Since you're not mortising, you don't have to worry too much about having any exacting groove width, unless panel fitment is a consideration. ?

Re: Looking for a deep shaper cutter

#134554

开云体育

Hi Joe,

You mentioned:

“The fence must be perfectly parallel to the sliding table or you will get a little variation in tenon length. I use a little crowned off bolt attached to the fence to overcome this.”

In my KF700 the xcut fence was set at 90 to blade. I used Brian’s square to ensure that the shaper fence is parallel to slider in these situations. The fence/hood assembly has enough slop in it to allow that.

Just curious about your comment above in blue. Not to miss a learning opportunity, would like to understand what you meant by it. Are you saying that the material is registered against bolt head so there is clearance from shaper fence to allow material travel w/o binding?

Imran Malik

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On Jan 27, 2024, at 9:34?AM, Joe Calhoon via groups.io <joecalhoon@...> wrote:

The fence must be perfectly parallel to the sliding table or you will get a little variation in tenon length. I use a little crowned off bolt attached to the fence to overcome this.

Re: Looking for a deep shaper cutter

#134553

If you could get by with a 8mm slot that would open up more options for cutters.
Bump stop on shaper fence.

IMG_8097.jpeg

Re: Looking for a deep shaper cutter

#134552

Bird, technique for slot and tenon on the shaper can be done many ways. The important thing is tenons and slots should be recessed 0.3 to 0.5 mm from the finished edge to allow for clamping. Later to be flushed up with another shaper cut or sanding flush. If using a Felder shaper and sliding table with the fence as a bump stop pieces would be cut to exact length. The fence must be perfectly parallel to the sliding table or you will get a little variation in tenon length. I use a little crowned off bolt attached to the fence to overcome this. Ideally for slot and tenon work 3 cutters are involved all the same diameter to keep setups simple. Workarounds with different diameter cutters will just involve more setup.

I ran into the same problem you have doing cabinet doors for my apartment with through tenons. My 6mm and 1/4” mortise chisels would not go deep enough for the 2 1/2” stock. I did not want to come in from each edge to do the through mortise and ended up using the 8mm chisel that goes deep. Not a perfect 1/3 construction but I was able to keep the doors 22 mm thick so it’s fine.

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Re: Looking for a deep shaper cutter

#134551
Edited

Bird, bridal joint or slot and tenon on 2” wide 3/4” stock presents some problems. The tenon is easy and can be accomplished several ways. The slot though is more difficult. Most adjustable groovers in the 1/4” range have shoulders that prevent the cut from going too deep. You would need at least a 160 diameter cutter to get the depth required. The 6mm Groover Brent mentioned might work but at 150 diameter I don’t think it will reach. You can see in my photos depth with a 160 diameter with spacers from a 30 mm shaft and a 1.25” shaft that usually have larger diameter spacers. It’s hard to see in catalogues if the small groovers have shoulders that limit depth of cut.
Looking around my shop I only came up with 2 cutters that would work for the slot. My Systmatic dado set that has 1.25 bore. Or a 1/4” X8”FS grooving tool that came with my SAC profiler. See the pictures. The FS groover wou be the better option. Not as great a cut as groovers with spurs but the heavy body keeps it solid and would be fine for the slot with a chip breaker.

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Re: Looking for a deep shaper cutter

#134550

Yes Brett, I share saw blades and a dado set between the saw and shaper, another reason to own a 30mm shaper spindle

Regards, Rod

Re: Harvey Bandsaw Alpha HW615P

#134549

For comparison, here's a lower wheel from an ACM machine.
(Those guys in northern Italy make Laguna's and Felder's industrial lines.)

Re: Harvey Bandsaw Alpha HW615P

#134548
Edited

The Taiwanese Laguna's also have corners cut too.
I suggest you look at some good copies of the Italian recipe instead.

Get something honestly rated for the likes of the Woodmaster CT, I suggest.
Something old and Italian like a 540, what's running nicely with, say a 3/4" blade, and not some curve cutting
blade to mask things.

Saying that, my opinion is that there's only a few honest designs of welded sheet metal saw that were ever made,
I can count on one hand the amount of machines, like specific era Centauro CO, made presumably sometime mid 80's to 1995,
Those are the first ones with telescopic guards,
Then there's some Meber's, and larger Sagittario's, which are fully adjustable featuring foot mounted motors,
or at least so with some mild fettling necessary, so one can align everything.
Near everything else has fixed, ala flange or face mounted motors.

Those Italian's better get their skates on though,
one recent machine exists out there, but it's 450kg.

Re: Harvey Bandsaw Alpha HW615P

#134547

Could be wrong, but it appears that the lower wheel is non adjustable?
That'd be the deal breaker for me.

Tom

Re: Looking for a deep shaper cutter

#134546

Also possible is using table saw blades and/or dado stack bored to spindle diameter and stacking/spacing as necessary. Helpful if you already have them and forgot to think sideways.

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On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 1:16?PM rodsheridan <riderofgallifrey@...> wrote:

Cornelius, I have Felder adjustable groover you posted a link to, it makes great tenons in one pas as long as the shoulders aren’t higher than ?about 7mm (single cutter thickness).

Obviously it makes good grooves.

Do you have a 30mm spindle?

If not you can have the cutter bored to 1 1/4” or buy the metric spindle, that’s what I did as I had some legacy Imperial cutters, added a 1 1/4” spindle to the shop.

Regards, Rod

Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110

314.772.2167
brett@...

Re: Basic spindle moulder usage question

#134545

Hi Dave, I use 2 approaches.

If the length of the tenon, and the shoulder to shoulder to shoulder distances are both critical, such as in a Shaker cope and stick joint, I cut the pieces to the correct length and set the cutter projection to be correct.

The shaper fence is the reference and the piece is butted against it and clamped to the table, or I use the Aigner work holder. I use a safety bar in the fence as well.

If I’m making a rail for a chair or door, where the tenon needs to be a couple mm shorter than the mortise depth, then set the stop on the crosscut fence fence to make one tenon the correct length.

I then reset the stop to touch the shoulder of the first tenon so that the shoulder to shoulder length is perfect.?

In this case I use the tenon table and hood as the tenon length is much longer and I like the added guarding.

Regards, Rod.

Regards, Rod

Re: Looking for a deep shaper cutter

#134544

Cornelius, I have Felder adjustable groover you posted a link to, it makes great tenons in one pas as long as the shoulders aren’t higher than ?about 7mm (single cutter thickness).

Obviously it makes good grooves.

Do you have a 30mm spindle?

If not you can have the cutter bored to 1 1/4” or buy the metric spindle, that’s what I did as I had some legacy Imperial cutters, added a 1 1/4” spindle to the shop.

Regards, Rod

Re: Looking for a deep shaper cutter

#134543

Yes, the adjustables are the way to go if the price doesn't scare you off. ?I have three of four of them! ? The larger they are, the thicker the minimum size has to be, otherwise they get too flimsy. ?

Re: Looking for a deep shaper cutter

#134542

开云体育

Yeah, the adjustable cutters are the way to go. Interestingly, I seem to find that the larger diameter cutters are also thicker, 8mm.

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On Jan 26, 2024, at 12:40 PM, Brent <dovetailtimber@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]
Hi Bird, using an adjustable groover for this would work well and having an adjustable groover in the tool chest is always great, but a fixed width groover/tenon disc would be cheaper and do that job too. ?Here is one: ?

Its about $225USD and you could stack two of them to make a tenon too if you wanted. ?They're in millimetre increments so you'd have to be ok with whatever closest mm size to 1/4" is. ?

B

Re: For Sale: A 951 L #forsale

#134541

Hi Wade!?

?Yeah, that Aigner implementation of the flip fence is really slick. The machine is great, simple and solid (what I was going for), but having used it for a few weeks I'm realizing I just don't have the room for separates....?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN

Re: Looking for a deep shaper cutter

#134540
Edited

Hi Bird, using an adjustable groover for this would work well and having an adjustable groover in the tool chest is always great, but a fixed width groover/tenon disc would be cheaper and do that job too. ?Here is one: ?

Its about $225USD and you could stack two of them to make a tenon too if you wanted. ?They're in millimetre increments so you'd have to be ok with whatever closest mm size to 1/4" is. ?

B

Re: Looking for a deep shaper cutter

#134539

开云体育

Good depth on this one. Lots adjustability?

Jack Decker

Vernacular Design

518 567 2051

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On Jan 26, 2024, at 1:12?PM, Cornelius <Cornelius@...> wrote:

?
They sell some spacers separately,? but you will be able to make your tenons using the same cutterhead.

On Fri, Jan 26, 2024, 8:09 PM Cornelius via <Cornelius=[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Bird,

Sorry about that. My default is the German Felder Website. Here is the USA link (the unit is on sale right now!):

Regards,

Cornelius Schultze-Kraft?
Cyprus?

On Fri, Jan 26, 2024, 8:03 PM Bird Cupps <birdc@...> wrote:
Thanks for those links. Those are exactly what I was thinking of. I’ll see if I can find it on the US Felder site. The only thing better would be something for half the price!

On Jan 26, 2024, at 11:51 AM, Alex Bowlds <aabj@...> wrote:

Here’s another option.? It has the side cutters that help to produce a clean cut.

Max depth of cut is about 2.5 inches.? I sometimes use it for cutting tenons.

Good Luck,

Alex

On Jan 26, 2024, at 9:47 AM, Cornelius <Cornelius@...> wrote:

?
Hello again,

Actually,? this unit looks a lot better! It has the horizontal blades and the blades are changeable!

Regards,

Cornelius Schultze-Kraft?
Cyprus?

On Fri, Jan 26, 2024, 7:41 PM Cornelius via??<Cornelius=[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Bird,

Might this item from Felder do what you are looking for? It is adjustable and has a depth of 65mm (just over 2.5 inch).

I do not own it, so I have no idea regarding its quality and I am sure there are other brands.?

What I have noticed about this particular model is that doesn't have the horizontal blades,? so it will surely not deliver a very clean cut.

Have a nice weekend,

Cornelius Schultze-Kraft?
Cyprus

On Fri, Jan 26, 2024, 7:20 PM imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Bird,

What is the thickness of your stock?

Imran Malik

On Jan 26, 2024, at 12:05?PM, Bird Cupps <birdc@...> wrote:

?Happy Friday

I’m new to using a shaper and I’m trying to figure things out. (I would like it if that Alpine workshop were not scheduled during lambing season!)

I want to make a bridle joint in 2’’ wide stock but I don’t see any cutters with that kind of depth. Can anyone direct me to a source? Or tell me how to do this? Or should I go back to using a table saw?

Learning every day,

Bird Cupps
Mount Horeb, WI