Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
Great video, thanks Wade for mentioning it.
The feature I liked most about the new Altendorf saws was the fence in the middle of the swing arm/table.? Lifting the Felder fence and repositioning it is something I like to avoid, but this idea seems pretty cool.? The drop down safety feature is great and although it should help lowering insurance premiums, just being able to get back to work in 10 seconds without any blood seems like a huge benefit.?
Cheers
David
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
I couldn't get a specific answer to that question, but an Elmo without it was $50-60k. It is a big ticket accessory at the?moment. I wonder if the? European market will require it on all new saws at some point? It seems like a great system, but my sliders with pneumatic clamps, riving knives and overarm guards are very safe machines. My hand is rarely anywhere near the blade unless I am changing it. I cannot justify one of these as a one man show.?
I have a Sawstop also, and find it to be better build quality than any of the cabinet saws it competes with.? Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
I was told the Felder PCS was about a 9kUSD upgrade when I ordered my stuff a year ago, provided it was available on the model ordered. ? I am mostly focused on only sending material I want cut through these machines, however elusive this is.? And without any ejection, backlash or other inertial consequence unintended. ? These are great advances, but not affordable to me.? Of course I have seen welders turn an empty 55 gallon drum over to stand on while reaching an a-frame? overhead and watched them launched 20 feet in the air when the sparks went under the bottom of and ignited the now gas filled bomb they stood on and guys with loose shirt sleeves get pulled into 90 rpm 800mm 100,000 hp shaft to no good end with safeguards all around. ? I do not know what this means to me.? I just finished building a new bicycle which I am sure in the hilly woods here in WV will kill me for certain because drivers only move into their own lane AFTER they crest the blind hill because they only look for other pickup trucks (which are high).? And motorcycle riding here is a mix of euphoria and terror for the same reasons.? Great roads, horrid drivers.? Somewhat like flying aerobatics, but cheaper. ? I have neighbors, mostly female, who seem to believe that battery powered chain saws are safer than their gas powered forbears, and therefore do not require any safety measures, because they are so cute…? I give gloves, goggles, etc. away and show how these chains can react in impromptu classes.? But I am not getting ahead of this curve. ? I think I will go back to growing trees into the shape I want furniture and then euthanize them, saving my risk taking to being in motion. But maybe not. ? Erik ?
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From: John HinmanSent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 21:59 To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [FOG] Altendorf, The inventor of the slider ? Jacques,
$10,000 for effective safety industrial equipment is a bargain, considering the damage a table saw can do to a person. The cost impact on a business is huge, too. The change in focus on safety in the last 100 years has been tremendous. Less than 100 years ago the question on a major construction project was not whether someone would die on the job, but instead the question was how many would die. Sure glad that has changed!
My wondering about the cost of the tool was more about the other features - all of the automation, power sliders, and things like vacuum clamps and air beds. Those things have to add a lot to the cost. Under what conditions do they pay off?
My question is really one of curiosity. I have no experience in production woodworking or factories, but it is fascinating to read discussions by some of the professionals that participate here.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: Made some sawdust yesterday.
Nice chair Marty. For some reason I did not get the email msg. Only found out because Jonathan replied so I went to the web interface to see it.
Is the grain running vertical on the top piece of the back? Also looks like that it may be different species of wood than the frame. Can’t wait to see the finished product.
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On Feb 28, 2023, at 10:03 PM, John Hinman <jhinman1911@...> wrote: ?Looks like quite a project! Is that a completed chair in the background of the first photo?
Please show us the chair when you get it finished!
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: Made some sawdust yesterday.
Looks like quite a project! Is that a completed chair in the background of the first photo?
Please show us the chair when you get it finished!
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
Jacques,
$10,000 for effective safety industrial equipment is a bargain, considering the damage a table saw can do to a person. The cost impact on a business is huge, too. The change in focus on safety in the last 100 years has been tremendous. Less than 100 years ago the question on a major construction project was not whether someone would die on the job, but instead the question was how many would die. Sure glad that has changed!
My wondering about the cost of the tool was more about the other features - all of the automation, power sliders, and things like vacuum clamps and air beds. Those things have to add a lot to the cost. Under what conditions do they pay off?
My question is really one of curiosity. I have no experience in production woodworking or factories, but it is fascinating to read discussions by some of the professionals that participate here.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
John,
I read somewhere that the Felder technology (PCS) added about 10K $ to the cost of the machine. Assuming this is the right ? order of magnitude ? it becomes easier to see how this extra cost can be offset by savings in insurance premiums (and human trauma associated with severe accidents). In other words, the savings in insurance premiums does not automatically equal the full cost of the equipment but rather the marginal portion pertaining to the safety system. One still has to deal with the cash flow/investment size of the equation though.
Jacques
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
The accessories really add up, don’t they!
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
John Hinman,
I’ve spent nearly a third of that for my K700S, along with all my current accessories, this was a huge expense for me and my “woodworking” salary. ?But I’m enjoying the investment! ? Now of course my saw has no “anti-wiener cut off” thingamajig installed on it, so I just relay on being damn careful! ???? ?I can still do math with all ten of my fingers! ??. And in about 90 days I’ll be even safer, Mac’s clamps are coming! ???????
Thx,
Wade
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On Feb 28, 2023, at 3:59 PM, John Hinman <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
?$75k is a lot of money. I’m curious - how many of the people in this group who make a living in woodworking can justify that kind of outlay?
As far as volume goes, these features have to come on mass-market machines in order to get volume. Even the Hammer brand probably does not have enough volume to justify developing a less costly but still reliable version.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
Jason, did the Stiles rep tell you how much the hand saver adds to the cost of the machine?
I’m just curious, as I am not in the market for a $75,000 saw. I like the idea of the safety feature, but have never been impressed with the overall quality of SawStop saws.
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John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
A commercial shop with employees might very well be able to justify this type of saw given the decrease in insurance rates. One lost finger or hand could easily cost hundreds of thousands in claims.
As for volume, it’s like anything else, quote 20 pieces vs. 100 pieces vs. 1000 pieces and the whole adoption of the technology becomes infinitely more affordable. Will it ever trickle down to all saws, I doubt it, but then some folks never thought seat belts and airbags would be in all cars either. It will most likely depend upon how many lawsuits come along as to how quick the safety approach wins out.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
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On Feb 28, 2023, at 4:59 PM, John Hinman <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
$75k is a lot of money. I’m curious - how many of the people in this group who make a living in woodworking can justify that kind of outlay?
As far as volume goes, these features have to come on mass-market machines in order to get volume. Even the Hammer brand probably does not have enough volume to justify developing a less costly but still reliable version.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
|
Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
$75k is a lot of money. I’m curious - how many of the people in this group who make a living in woodworking can justify that kind of outlay?
As far as volume goes, these features have to come on mass-market machines in order to get volume. Even the Hammer brand probably does not have enough volume to justify developing a less costly but still reliable version.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
|
Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
That’s the same as Felder, only on the top of the line machine at this time. It is going to take some volume sales to bring the prices down to where they can offer this sort of thing on the “less than top of the line” saws.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
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On Feb 28, 2023, at 4:19 PM, Jason Holtz <jholtzy@...> wrote:
My local Stiles rep stopped by today. The hand saver option is only available on the F45 Elmo controller equipped saw. Top of the line, near $75k. Gulp. They do hope to bring it down the line including the much more approachable F25 series saw.? Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Re: Altendorf, The inventor of the slider
My local Stiles rep stopped by today. The hand saver option is only available on the F45 Elmo controller equipped saw. Top of the line, near $75k. Gulp. They do hope to bring it down the line including the much more approachable F25 series saw.? Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Re: Bill Belanger's products on Etsy
Thanks, Bill!! I’ll purchase a couple when I return from travel on March 16th. ? -Aaron Inami ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bill Belanger
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 10:49 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Bill Belanger's products on Etsy ? Aaron, I've added a 120mm to 6" adapter to my shop ? Hi Bill, ? One of the things I’m going to ask from you is a “120mm port to 6” hose adapter”.? So that we can quickly connect/disconnect a 6” hose from things like a Felder jointer/planer and edge sander.? Not urgent because I won’t be able to buy until March 16, but I would want to order two of these.? You’ve got all sorts of adapters, but I’m surprised nobody has asked for this one. ? -Aaron ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bill Belanger
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 3:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Bill Belanger's products on Etsy ? Thanks for the kind words and I’m so happy that you’re happy!!! Let me know if you need anything else. ? Bill,
Both items you have shipped me have been great.? They fit well and the color match is even great.
Keep it coming!
PK
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Calibration of Format 4 Kappa 400 x-motion saw
Success! Thanks all. Emery?
Begin forwarded message:
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From: Emery Salesky <emerys22@...> Date: February 26, 2023 at 9:52:08 AM EST To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [FOG] Calibration of Format 4 Kappa 400 x-motion saw
?
I loosened nut #7 instead of #3 not realizing that the bolt geometry and tolerance didn't allow for lateral movement.? I did so in the misguided belief that I wouldn't have to adjust the height nuts, #3, yet again.? I will try again, this time meticulously following your video's David; and yes, I did watch all of them.
I will also check for "paint lock" Mac.
The toe-out measurement was done in strict accordance with your video David.
Thanks all again for all of your help.
Emery
On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 10:18:24?PM EST, David P. Best <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
Excellent point Mac. ?I found a couple of the studs on my Kappa 400 to have the spherical washers imbedded in the paint. ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
On Feb 25, 2023, at 6:32 PM, mac campshure via groups.io <mac512002@...> wrote:
The bottom cylindrical washer is probably stuck to paint or power er coat knock with a block, I normally grease between the concave convex washers .?
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Re: Bill Belanger's products on Etsy
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On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 12:14 PM Wade Dees via <wjdsignature= [email protected]> wrote: Bill,
Do you have 120mm to 5” adapter by chance?
Thx,
Wade On Feb 28, 2023, at 10:49 AM, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:
? Aaron, I've added a 120mm to 6" adapter to my shop.
Bill Bélanger
Hi Bill, ? One of the things I’m going to ask from you is a “120mm port to 6” hose adapter”.? So that we can quickly connect/disconnect a 6” hose from things like a Felder jointer/planer and edge sander.? Not urgent because I won’t be able to buy until March 16, but I would want to order two of these.? You’ve got all sorts of adapters, but I’m surprised nobody has asked for this one. ? -Aaron ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bill Belanger
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 3:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Bill Belanger's products on Etsy ? Thanks for the kind words and I’m so happy that you’re happy!!! Let me know if you need anything else. ? Bill,
Both items you have shipped me have been great.? They fit well and the color match is even great.
Keep it coming!
PK
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Re: Bill Belanger's products on Etsy
Bill,
Do you have 120mm to 5” adapter by chance?
Thx,
Wade
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On Feb 28, 2023, at 10:49 AM, Bill Belanger <Bill@...> wrote:
? Aaron, I've added a 120mm to 6" adapter to my shop.
Bill Bélanger
Hi Bill, ? One of the things I’m going to ask from you is a “120mm port to 6” hose adapter”.? So that we can quickly connect/disconnect a 6” hose from things like a Felder jointer/planer and edge sander.? Not urgent because I won’t be able to buy until March 16, but I would want to order two of these.? You’ve got all sorts of adapters, but I’m surprised nobody has asked for this one. ? -Aaron ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bill Belanger
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 3:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Bill Belanger's products on Etsy ? Thanks for the kind words and I’m so happy that you’re happy!!! Let me know if you need anything else. ? Bill,
Both items you have shipped me have been great.? They fit well and the color match is even great.
Keep it coming!
PK
|
Re: Bill Belanger's products on Etsy
Aaron, I've added a 120mm to 6" adapter to my shop.
Bill Bélanger
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Bill, ? One of the things I’m going to ask from you is a “120mm port to 6” hose adapter”.? So that we can quickly connect/disconnect a 6” hose from things like a Felder jointer/planer and edge sander.? Not urgent because I won’t be able to buy until March 16, but I would want to order two of these.? You’ve got all sorts of adapters, but I’m surprised nobody has asked for this one. ? -Aaron ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bill Belanger
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 3:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Bill Belanger's products on Etsy ? Thanks for the kind words and I’m so happy that you’re happy!!! Let me know if you need anything else. ? Bill,
Both items you have shipped me have been great.? They fit well and the color match is even great.
Keep it coming!
PK
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Re: Bill Belanger's products on Etsy
Thanks for that David. I have a 140mm to 6" adapter on my Etsy store.
Bill
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On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 9:17 AM David P. Best via <dbestworkshop= [email protected]> wrote: You can see all the details of my dust extraction setup at this link.?
The Dual 51 has a 140mm extraction port and I use two sections of 140mm ID flex hose. Nordfab supplied 6” QG to 140mm OD connectors. The flex hose is the HD variety sold by Felder with Felder 140mm Quick Connect fittings on the end of each hose section.? David Best - via mobile phone? ? David Best,
So you use a 6” diameter dust collection hose for your dual 51, is the machines outlet 120mm? ?
Thx,
Wade
?In my experience, it’s a lot more friendly to have separate extractor input hoses for jointer and planer modes on a large combination J/P.? I hate wrestling with a long unwieldy 6” hose.? Far easier to have to pickup hoses with a blast-gate on each.
<12240216793_7bae9996e0_c.jpg>
Aaron,
Do you remove the collector hose each time you turn the operation over on the jointer/planer combo machine?? I was thinking that if you have some extra “slack” in the hose length, that it just flips over to the other side of the machine without having to disconnect each time, no?? Seems I see people doing it this way, but not 100% certain. Won’t get my combo unit until June, to see for myself. ?
Thx,
Wade
On Feb 27, 2023, at 5:35 PM, Aaron Inami <ainami@...> wrote:
? Hi Bill, ? One of the things I’m going to ask from you is a “120mm port to 6” hose adapter”.? So that we can quickly connect/disconnect a 6” hose from things like a Felder jointer/planer and edge sander.? Not urgent because I won’t be able to buy until March 16, but I would want to order two of these.? You’ve got all sorts of adapters, but I’m surprised nobody has asked for this one. ? -Aaron ? ? Thanks for the kind words and I’m so happy that you’re happy!!! Let me know if you need anything else. ? Bill,
Both items you have shipped me have been great.? They fit well and the color match is even great.
Keep it coming!
PK?
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Jason Holtz
imran
Bill Belanger