Re: X Roll Support Tables
Brandon,
Thanks for the clarification. ?I couldn’t tell from your original post if you were seriously considering NOT getting an outrigger table.
You may be imagining a need that isn’t well satisfied with any of the extension table options. ? The primary limitation of all of the options is the amount of weight and lever force that can be sustained by an extension table this is simply hung on the P-channel side of the sliding table. ?There’s not a lot to grip there, and for sure, the top of the P-channel is machined specifically to register the outrigger table consistently when taken off and put back on. ? The “claw” of the Felder 1 meter extension table is pretty nasty can can actually damage the P-channel if you’re not careful putting it on and taking it off. ?My worry when you bring up support for material is the weight. ?The longer the table, the more leverage it exerts on the edge of the slider. ?Hanging a 10 foot long oak 4x4 on that 1 meter extension table would be really pushing the limit - this is the reason Felder no longer sells that table as a general purpose extension table - it’s intended use is for panel processing, not supporting long heavy timbers for crosscut operations. ?In practice, I find if far easier to just put on the outrigger to support long timber crosscuts rather than fuss around with a separate extension table and the short crosscut fence. ?
If you are working with material that is 4-5 feet long, you might not need a support table at all if you have a decent clamping setup - like the ones Mac sells.
If you’re looking for something that stays on the machine 90-percent of the time, then don’t eliminate the EGL from consideration. ?The telescoping extensions on the EGL provide support for material hanging off the edge of the sliding table even if you’re NOT using the flip stops ?The DGL does not have these built in stock support tabs:
I bring this up with some reservations. ?It’s a terrific crosscut fence and highly accurate if set up correctly during commissioning. ?But it is heavy (about 60 pounds), and awkward to manhandle on and off the machine, and will need it’s own storage rack. ?It’s also not idea for supporting 10-foot long railroad ties. ?If long heavy timbers are your mainstay, and you don’t want to fuss with the outrigger table, then a SCMS is probably a better option or accompaniment to your sliding table saw.
Lots of people have come up with ways of adapting a conventional cabinet saw miter guide to the sliding table by making some kind of T-slot adapter that recreates a ? x ?” slot for the miter bar. ?Here is what I turn to often for the odd crosscut or mitered cut when I don’t want to use the outrigger table (my shop is also space constrained). ??
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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David, thank you for the detailed response. I admit that I am very new to this but I do understand the purpose of the outrigger and crosscut fence and understand their utility. I am keeping them and will use them when needed. However, I do not have the luxury of a dedicated shop space that allows me to leave the full equipment set up all the time. As mentioned, I will probably have the outrigger and 7' crosscut fence removed unless I'm in "project mode". Yes, I have the digital crosscut fence with one DRO and the extension piece. Thank you for the weights. I had estimated the weight as "Wow, that's heavier than I thought it would be". The primary purpose of the order that I placed was to purchase the mobility cart so that I can install and remove the outrigger more easily as I don't think it's a one person job without it.?
So, due to the fact that I will probably not want to install the outrigger and fence for an occasional? odd cut, I thought it would be useful to have the 1100mm short crosscut fence available for faster use. I do not always need ultra precision and 7-10' of crosscut capability. I can probably leave this one on the machine all the time as it won't interfere with my parking situation. However, I think that I need some table support to make effective use of it. That implies I need either the short or long table extension. The 1m table supplied with the parallel fence might be a little long, but seems to match up with the 1100mm crosscut fence. So, I'm looking for opinions of people that have used the short crosscut fence for occasional use and might have a suggestion on which table extension is better suited for that use. The fact that the rip fence adds the ability to do parallel rips to the left of blade is a bonus, but I'm not sure how much advantage that provides over just using the normal rip fence.
Mike: I think I've watched every YouTube video on the Fritz and Franz jigs. I'm collecting various parts so that I can build one. It's near the top of my list. The first problem is that I still have a SawStop and Powermatic jointer, not to mention a large stack of construction material taking up the Felder's new home in the garage/workshop. I also have to re-do my Nordfab dust collection piping to the new saw location and also reconfigure it for the new sizes and overhead arm. It's kind of a long list.
Thanks again for all the responses. This group is a wealth of knowledge.
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Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
???????Hi JP,
That is a beautiful saw and looks at home in the nicely done shop. Congratulations and wish you many many years of happy woodworking.
BTW, what is the round dolly like thing with casters in the last pic? Looks like color matches with Format4.?
Imran?
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On Jul 29, 2021, at 10:50 PM, JP Rice via groups.io <jprphotos@...> wrote: ?Imran, here is a mini reveal, waiting for Felder tech to commission the saw next Tuesday.? <C4D451BF-4796-4E37-944C-121CF1662B86.jpeg> <79DD0D59-6891-4877-9D7F-3E5BEFB7D1A8.jpeg> <5001D2FD-CBB2-4254-99C6-3D26079FA147.jpeg>
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Re: X Roll Support Tables
David, thank you for the detailed response. I admit that I am very new to this but I do understand the purpose of the outrigger and crosscut fence and understand their utility. I am keeping them and will use them when needed. However, I do not have the luxury of a dedicated shop space that allows me to leave the full equipment set up all the time. As mentioned, I will probably have the outrigger and 7' crosscut fence removed unless I'm in "project mode". Yes, I have the digital crosscut fence with one DRO and the extension piece. Thank you for the weights. I had estimated the weight as "Wow, that's heavier than I thought it would be". The primary purpose of the order that I placed was to purchase the mobility cart so that I can install and remove the outrigger more easily as I don't think it's a one person job without it.?
So, due to the fact that I will probably not want to install the outrigger and fence for an occasional? odd cut, I thought it would be useful to have the 1100mm short crosscut fence available for faster use. I do not always need ultra precision and 7-10' of crosscut capability. I can probably leave this one on the machine all the time as it won't interfere with my parking situation. However, I think that I need some table support to make effective use of it. That implies I need either the short or long table extension. The 1m table supplied with the parallel fence might be a little long, but seems to match up with the 1100mm crosscut fence. So, I'm looking for opinions of people that have used the short crosscut fence for occasional use and might have a suggestion on which table extension is better suited for that use. The fact that the rip fence adds the ability to do parallel rips to the left of blade is a bonus, but I'm not sure how much advantage that provides over just using the normal rip fence.
Mike: I think I've watched every YouTube video on the Fritz and Franz jigs. I'm collecting various parts so that I can build one. It's near the top of my list. The first problem is that I still have a SawStop and Powermatic jointer, not to mention a large stack of construction material taking up the Felder's new home in the garage/workshop. I also have to re-do my Nordfab dust collection piping to the new saw location and also reconfigure it for the new sizes and overhead arm. It's kind of a long list.
Thanks again for all the responses. This group is a wealth of knowledge.
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Re: Would you buy a combo Shaper/Saw?
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20" jointer planer format 4 dual 51
I have a 4 year old machine i want to sell. Needs minor repair work, am original owner. Located in houston tx. 15k? 3 phase 10 hp format 4 dual 51.? 
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Re: X Roll Support Tables
Obviously, the photos were stripped out by the forum software. ?Not sure why. ?Here are the important ones - if they come through this time.
?do NOT recommend using the outrigger mobility cart with the digital crosscut fence still attached to the outrigger table - it’s top heavy and unwieldy. ?
Instead, remove the crosscut fence first and store it on shop-made brackets on the wall, then remove the outrigger table to the mobility cart.
At one time, Felder sold the 1 meter extension table that is part of their parallel fence kit separately, but ultimately removed it from the offering to discourage use as a support table for heavy loads. ?Look at how the 1 meter table attaches to the edge of the sliding table and you’ll quickly realize that a heavy load at the end of that extension table is likely to damage the sliding table P-channel.
This photo illustrates the relative lengths of (front to back) the Lamb Toolworks parallel fence table, the Felder 500mm Extension table, and the Felder 1meter Parallel Fence table.
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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The idea of a long sliding table saw without an outrigger and long crosscut fence (if that’s what you are suggesting) makes little sense to me. ?You’d be creating an orphan that would be impossible to sell if you wanted to, and it sorta begs the question “do you really need (or understand) the utility of a sliding table saw?”
I assume by "Liz at Felder suggested I might consider the rip fence for $581” you’re talking about the 1 meter support table for the Felder parallel fence - not the rip fence (which comes standard on the machine). ? And the DRO fence is not 10’ long - your sliding table may be 10 feet long, but the digital crosscut fence is 74” long unless you buy one with a telescoping extension. ?The telescoping extension will all 9 inches to the total length when it is fully collapsed into the main fence extrusion.
The digital crosscut fence with one digital stop attached and no telescoping extension weighs 35 pounds. ? The telescoping extension will add another 19 pounds to the total weight of the digital crosscut fence and 9” to its length.
The 1500 outrigger table itself, without the crosscut fence attached to it, weighs 86 pounds and is roughly 45 x 24 x 12 inches. ?With the digital crosscut fence and stops on the 1500 outrigger, the total weight is over 140 pounds.
I routinely remove the 1500 outrigger table from my Kappa 400 using the mobility cart. ?I wouldn’t consider doing so unless I had the Felder mobility cart - it’s just too big and heavy.
I do NOT recommend using the outrigger mobility cart with the digital crosscut fence still attached to the outrigger table - it’s top heavy and unwieldy. ?
Instead, remove the crosscut fence first and store it on shop-made brackets on the wall, then remove the outrigger table to the mobility cart.
At one time, Felder sold the 1 meter extension table that is part of their parallel fence kit separately, but ultimately removed it from the offering to discourage use as a support table for heavy loads. ?Look at how the 1 meter table attaches to the edge of the sliding table and you’ll quickly realize that a heavy load at the end of that extension table is likely to damage the sliding table P-channel.
This photo illustrates the relative lengths of (front to back) the Lamb Toolworks parallel fence table, the Felder 500mm Extension table, and the Felder 1meter Parallel Fence table.
You will find a lot more photos and descriptions with the photos at the following links:
1500 outrigger and mobility cart: ?? ? Digital Crosscut fence and Stops: ? Parallel Fence and Extension Tables:
And if you have any doubt about dimension of your machine, you can ask Felder to supply you with a dimensioned drawing in PDF form - what’s attached is for the K940 saw, but the F700 will be very close to these dimensions. ? From that you can do your own space planning similar to this drawing (Kappa 400):
I'm bringing back another old thread. I put in an order yesterday but I'm having second thoughts. Maybe you guys can give me some advice.
The machine I just bought has the 1500 outrigger and the 10' DRO crosscut fence. Yeah, that's super cool, but it's also enormous and I have to park a car next to it on a regular basis. So, unless I am slicing up sheet goods, most of the time the outrigger and fence will be on the wall. I'm planning to order the 1100mm cross cut fence for general every day usage, acknowledging that the precision is compromised unless I get the connections upgraded. Under that fence I need some support. Last night's order included the 430-104 short table. But today Liz at Felder suggested I might consider the rip fence for $581.
Thanks to Brian for the great comparison picture. I would love to hear from anyone that uses either table with the short crosscut fence and has some feedback. Getting the longer one also gets me the parallel stop. This is my first slider, so I can understand ripping on the left side, but I don't really see how it's any better than the right side.
Any thoughts are appreciated. You guys already saved me $500 by switching fron the Felder diamond blade to the Tenryu.
-Brandon
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Re: X Roll Support Tables
The idea of a long sliding table saw without an outrigger and long crosscut fence (if that’s what you are suggesting) makes little sense to me. ?You’d be creating an orphan that would be impossible to sell if you wanted to, and it sorta begs the question “do you really need (or understand) the utility of a sliding table saw?”
I assume by "Liz at Felder suggested I might consider the rip fence for $581” you’re talking about the 1 meter support table for the Felder parallel fence - not the rip fence (which comes standard on the machine). ? And the DRO fence is not 10’ long - your sliding table may be 10 feet long, but the digital crosscut fence is 74” long unless you buy one with a telescoping extension. ?The telescoping extension will all 9 inches to the total length when it is fully collapsed into the main fence extrusion.
The digital crosscut fence with one digital stop attached and no telescoping extension weighs 35 pounds. ? The telescoping extension will add another 19 pounds to the total weight of the digital crosscut fence and 9” to its length.
The 1500 outrigger table itself, without the crosscut fence attached to it, weighs 86 pounds and is roughly 45 x 24 x 12 inches. ?With the digital crosscut fence and stops on the 1500 outrigger, the total weight is over 140 pounds.
I routinely remove the 1500 outrigger table from my Kappa 400 using the mobility cart. ?I wouldn’t consider doing so unless I had the Felder mobility cart - it’s just too big and heavy.
I do NOT recommend using the outrigger mobility cart with the digital crosscut fence still attached to the outrigger table - it’s top heavy and unwieldy. ?
Instead, remove the crosscut fence first and store it on shop-made brackets on the wall, then remove the outrigger table to the mobility cart.
At one time, Felder sold the 1 meter extension table that is part of their parallel fence kit separately, but ultimately removed it from the offering to discourage use as a support table for heavy loads. ?Look at how the 1 meter table attaches to the edge of the sliding table and you’ll quickly realize that a heavy load at the end of that extension table is likely to damage the sliding table P-channel.
This photo illustrates the relative lengths of (front to back) the Lamb Toolworks parallel fence table, the Felder 500mm Extension table, and the Felder 1meter Parallel Fence table.
You will find a lot more photos and descriptions with the photos at the following links:
1500 outrigger and mobility cart: ?? ? Digital Crosscut fence and Stops: ? Parallel Fence and Extension Tables:
And if you have any doubt about dimension of your machine, you can ask Felder to supply you with a dimensioned drawing in PDF form - what’s attached is for the K940 saw, but the F700 will be very close to these dimensions. ? From that you can do your own space planning similar to this drawing (Kappa 400):
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I'm bringing back another old thread. I put in an order yesterday but I'm having second thoughts. Maybe you guys can give me some advice.
The machine I just bought has the 1500 outrigger and the 10' DRO crosscut fence. Yeah, that's super cool, but it's also enormous and I have to park a car next to it on a regular basis. So, unless I am slicing up sheet goods, most of the time the outrigger and fence will be on the wall. I'm planning to order the 1100mm cross cut fence for general every day usage, acknowledging that the precision is compromised unless I get the connections upgraded. Under that fence I need some support. Last night's order included the 430-104 short table. But today Liz at Felder suggested I might consider the rip fence for $581.
Thanks to Brian for the great comparison picture. I would love to hear from anyone that uses either table with the short crosscut fence and has some feedback. Getting the longer one also gets me the parallel stop. This is my first slider, so I can understand ripping on the left side, but I don't really see how it's any better than the right side.
Any thoughts are appreciated. You guys already saved me $500 by switching fron the Felder diamond blade to the Tenryu.
-Brandon
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Re: X Roll Support Tables
Brandon,
You may find this post useful
BTW, Brian has mentioned in the sane thread that he does not recommend removing the stop and use the base as a table but he does sell the base alone for material support.
Imran
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On Jul 29, 2021, at 5:34 PM, Brandon Nickel <brandon.nickel@...> wrote: ?I'm bringing back another old thread. I put in an order yesterday but I'm having second thoughts. Maybe you guys can give me some advice.
The machine I just bought has the 1500 outrigger and the 10' DRO crosscut fence. Yeah, that's super cool, but it's also enormous and I have to park a car next to it on a regular basis. So, unless I am slicing up sheet goods, most of the time the outrigger and fence will be on the wall. I'm planning to order the 1100mm cross cut fence for general every day usage, acknowledging that the precision is compromised unless I get the connections upgraded. Under that fence I need some support. Last night's order included the 430-104 short table. But today Liz at Felder suggested I might consider the rip fence for $581.
Thanks to Brian for the great comparison picture. I would love to hear from anyone that uses either table with the short crosscut fence and has some feedback. Getting the longer one also gets me the parallel stop. This is my first slider, so I can understand ripping on the left side, but I don't really see how it's any better than the right side.
Any thoughts are appreciated. You guys already saved me $500 by switching fron the Felder diamond blade to the Tenryu.
-Brandon
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Re: Any experts on 3 phase power issues?
Thanks for clarifying those things.
The bottom line is that if you have currents varying by 20-50% between phases when running any one of several different motors and while there are no other loads at all, then there is a utility problem.? But no one from the internet, no matter their level expertise, could diagnose the exact problem from afar, and conjecture from here about root cause is not really going to help.? You need to demonstrate to the utility that they are not delivering the service. Only they can diagnose.
It's puzzling what they appear to have done so far.? It seems like you're saying they simply logged voltage for a few days when there was no load.? That's not very helpful, and certainly does not qualify as "power quality" measurement.? ?One needs data about how the system behaves under load.? ?I'm wondering if your theorizing to them about voltage and phasing actually led them to simply respond narrowly to your request -- so they proved voltage OK, as if that was the job.? But did they observe current behavior under the isolated load conditions you describe?? That's what they need to answer to.? It's hard to imagine the utility seeing that and just shrugging.
I don't think you have many options but to escalate further with utility.? I would also try to hire a local electrician with appropriate (industrial) expertise?who can do appropriate measurements, possibly help troubleshoot, and may know who/how to get the right people at the utility involved.
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I have a VFD wired to my 18.5kw sander. I had to hire an industrial electrician to do it, as there are 3 different motors within the machine.?
the purpose of the VFD is to limit the inrush current to the full load current of 38amp (415v here)
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Re: X Roll Support Tables
Brandon:
Have you made a Fritz and Franz jig? My understanding is that many slider owners make the F&F as one of their first projects... though, I will defer to the Forum members on this matter. Most of my ripping is within the 15" capability of my F&F jig. For larger widths and lengths, when needed, I use my outrigger for the one square edge, and then clamps on either ends of the work to secure it.?
What I have found is that Felder has an accessory for whatever operation you want to perform;? but, I don't want to get into attaching and removing accessories for relatively few passes. Personally, I accept the process for attaching and removing the outrigger, and do not obsess with the change-over... much as I accept the jointer/planer changeover - these sit within the compromises and decisions we make about our shops.
Mike D.?
On Thursday, July 29, 2021, 05:34:21 PM EDT, Brandon Nickel <brandon.nickel@...> wrote:
I'm bringing back another old thread. I put in an order yesterday but I'm having second thoughts. Maybe you guys can give me some advice.
The machine I just bought has the 1500 outrigger and the 10' DRO crosscut fence. Yeah, that's super cool, but it's also enormous and I have to park a car next to it on a regular basis. So, unless I am slicing up sheet goods, most of the time the outrigger and fence will be on the wall. I'm planning to order the 1100mm cross cut fence for general every day usage, acknowledging that the precision is compromised unless I get the connections upgraded. Under that fence I need some support. Last night's order included the 430-104 short table. But today Liz at Felder suggested I might consider the rip fence for $581.
Thanks to Brian for the great comparison picture. I would love to hear from anyone that uses either table with the short crosscut fence and has some feedback. Getting the longer one also gets me the parallel stop. This is my first slider, so I can understand ripping on the left side, but I don't really see how it's any better than the right side.
Any thoughts are appreciated. You guys already saved me $500 by switching fron the Felder diamond blade to the Tenryu.
-Brandon
-- Mike D. Annapolis, MD AD951; K700S; N4400
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Re: X Roll Support Tables
When I first got my Felder in 2010 I was in a 3 car garage.? I bought the 1500 outrigger and a cart assuming I would mostly have the outrigger off the
saw.? Turn out I rarely removed it for the following reasons:
-
Wanted when using sheet goods
-
It’s heavy.? Just the standard fence without the outrigger is heavy and where to put that?
-
Cart with outrigger is large, where does it go
?
I do use a large 14” Dewalt RAS with a DRO as a 90 degree cutoff station and I have over 10 ft to the left of the blade so only use the slider to cut
parts wider than I can on the Dewalt
?
I’m almost 60 but still pretty strong and that outrigger is heavy. Doubt I would hang it from the wall much by myself
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Brandon Nickel
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 2:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] X Roll Support Tables
?
I'm bringing back another old thread. I put in an order yesterday but I'm having second thoughts. Maybe you guys can give me some advice.
The machine I just bought has the 1500 outrigger and the 10' DRO crosscut fence. Yeah, that's super cool, but it's also enormous and I have to park a car next to it on a regular basis. So, unless I am slicing up sheet goods, most of the time the outrigger and
fence will be on the wall. I'm planning to order the 1100mm cross cut fence for general every day usage, acknowledging that the precision is compromised unless I get the connections upgraded. Under that fence I need some support. Last night's order included
the 430-104 short table. But today Liz at Felder suggested I might consider the rip fence for $581.
Thanks to Brian for the great comparison picture. I would love to hear from anyone that uses either table with the short crosscut fence and has some feedback. Getting the longer one also gets me the parallel stop. This is my first slider, so I can understand
ripping on the left side, but I don't really see how it's any better than the right side.
Any thoughts are appreciated. You guys already saved me $500 by switching fron the Felder diamond blade to the Tenryu.
-Brandon
|
Re: X Roll Support Tables
I'm bringing back another old thread. I put in an order yesterday but I'm having second thoughts. Maybe you guys can give me some advice.
The machine I just bought has the 1500 outrigger and the 10' DRO crosscut fence. Yeah, that's super cool, but it's also enormous and I have to park a car next to it on a regular basis. So, unless I am slicing up sheet goods, most of the time the outrigger and fence will be on the wall. I'm planning to order the 1100mm cross cut fence for general every day usage, acknowledging that the precision is compromised unless I get the connections upgraded. Under that fence I need some support. Last night's order included the 430-104 short table. But today Liz at Felder suggested I might consider the rip fence for $581.
Thanks to Brian for the great comparison picture. I would love to hear from anyone that uses either table with the short crosscut fence and has some feedback. Getting the longer one also gets me the parallel stop. This is my first slider, so I can understand ripping on the left side, but I don't really see how it's any better than the right side.
Any thoughts are appreciated. You guys already saved me $500 by switching fron the Felder diamond blade to the Tenryu.
-Brandon
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There are lots of ways it might work, but for a portable jobsite situation where you have different power du jour, a step up transformer is going to be a better option than any rigging.
?
Here is an example of a step-up transformer that would be in the range (though maybe not as weatherproof as you’d like):
?
?
You mention one of the tools drawing 2500 watts – if this is real and for more than a couple seconds, you are going to have another problem – a 120v 20A breaker is rated at 1920 watts (80% of 2400 watts) for long-term use. Breakers will
allow higher than nameplate load for a while – and unpredictably so – breaker tolerances are pretty wide, but you may have trouble keeping your tool running on a 20A circuit, and even more trouble on a 15A circuit.
?
?
?
Mac, I think you are joking ??
?
120 in the US is created by utility service L1 or L2 to neutral.? L1 to L2 is 240V. ?All 120V outlets from one breaker will all be on the same leg and you can’t
get 240 that way.? It could be possible if you knew which circuit was on L1 and which on L2.
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Airtight: Clamps by Air Compression
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 7:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] OT: ERIKA 60 in NA?
?
Tom I don’t know if any one mentioned this but if you have a 240 unit you can make a 240 outlet and power it wit two 120 plugs .?
Plug your saw into it for 240.
Mac,,,
martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330?cell
Designing and building for 50 years
?
On Jul 27, 2021, at 1:59 PM, bacchus6015 via groups.io <joeinno@...> wrote:
?Tom,
Have you considered a 240 volt portable battery set up? ?
Like this only 240 volts? ?
Chris Chan from Rangate helped me find an inverter to use with my battery powered stacker for when the power would go out in my shop so I could still open the garage door with the remote. ?There was plenty of power in the stacker battery
pack but it would probably be too heavy to be portable. ?
?
?
On Jul 27, 2021, at 7:39 AM,
tom@... wrote:
?
[Edited Message Follows]
Greetings!?
I had considered posting this in the Mafell forum, but I suspect there's a little more electrical aptitude here. I've been using a Mafell ERIKA 70 for several years now for my on-site work, and I just can't say enough good things about it. For those not familiar
with the machines, this video gives a brief overview of pull-push saws:??They are sort of like a portable sliding saw, with the option to either
rip or crosscut depending on how you configure it. Changing configurations only takes a couple seconds, and for crosscutting I've found it far more accurate than a miter saw.?
While I am trying to perform more work in my Shop, I think I am destined to spend a sizable portion of my career performing work on-site, so having a good portable solution is important.?
Anyways, with the recent minor facelift of the Erika line, Mafell has discontinued the 120V option on the Erika 70, leaving all of the Erika models now in only 240V. I believe that the machines destined for the NA market are 240V 60Hz, "stock" machines are
240V 50Hz. So, I'm going to jealously guard my 120V Erika 70, but I can see the writing on the walls, and was wondering what my options might be in the future should I either:
?1. Need to replace my Erika 70 120V with a Erika 70 or 85 240V 60Hz, or:
2. Acquire a Erika 60 240V 50Hz for those small jobs where the 70/85 is overkill
My requirements are:
- Need to be able to work on-site in residential settings, with access only to 120V 60hz power.
- Needs to supply 240V 60Hz (50Hz would be nice for the Erika 60), the Erika 85 draws 2,500 watts, the Erika 60 draws 1,300 watts
- Needs to be a portable solution (preferably <40 lbs)
- Needs to be a solution that is weather tolerant (needs to be able to handle snow, drizzle, heat, cold, etc.....)
- If it’s a battery solution, I can charge 240V in my Shop overnight
- I am usually able to prep most of my materials ahead of time in my Shop, so the on-site work is mostly ripping and trimming cuts. This is a low-volume, one-person show, so not terribly intensive use
I suppose the simplest solution would be something like the Festool Sys-Powerstation??,
but I wonder if there are portable step-up transformers or "hardened" VFD solutions? In terms of the Festool Sys-Powerstation, I wonder if anybody would be willing to work with me to get a 240V model imported to NA (please message me privately for this). Or,
am I simply out of luck and need to start going with the flow, reverting back to a miter saw and table saw (say it ain't so!!)??
Anyways, I know there's a lot of creativity here, and would be curious what thoughts folks might have. Thank you in advance for any tips or advice.....?
(Edit: clarified requirements)?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
?
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The guy I bought the Kundig Wide Belt sander has a PP that he wans to sell.? I did not get a price as I don’t need it. It was smaller and blue so I
assume it’s older.? Let me know if anyone wants his contact info
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of imranindiana via groups.io
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] VFD
?
??Just couple of things to add to what has been shared already. If you are running a business loss of 3P source has real consequences. However, PP is super reliable based upon my experience (i have a used one from ~2006) and what I have
read here for nearly 2 decades. I have never had a reason to check so I do not know the answer. Find out what replacement/repair assurance PP can provide.
On David’s comment on RPCs, I did make my own and sold it after 15 yrs and it is still running. But, generally speaking, on a home built basic RPC, voltage/current balancing works well for same size motors. So it worked well for KF with
same size motors. Although, there is usually enough margin to keep output in safe range. Typically, wild leg can be sent to the motor leg.
On Jul 23, 2021, at 2:14 PM, David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
?
DB here is the better source but I do have a Kay and three PP, 10,20,30 hp.? Obviously I think the PP is the best choice for a whole shop wide range solution.? The older RPC were fine but could
only be balanced for a range of HP.? For instance, a RPC that could start a hard starting 20 hp motor, wasn't a great solution when running a 1 hp motor unless other motors were running.? The PP is balanced at any amperage output and very quiet.? Cost is the
deal here.? 20 hp RPC ( or 40 hp depending on brand rating ) will be 2-3K less than a 20 hp PP.? If you put a couple of vfds on the DC and Bandsaw, you will save enough by buying a 10 hp to pay for the vfds but no real economic gain.? I run a 30 hp PP in the
big shop and a 10 hp at home, coupled with a separate vfd to run the DC.? I have the Kay on a transfer switch in case the PP craps out but that hasn't happened yet in 10 years.
If the PP is out of reach, I'd still take an electronically balanced RPC providing the Martin runs OK on it.? Lots of people make their own or buy a used one and balance it themselves and save
money.? Above my pay grade to do so.? Dave
Thank you for all this info. I also have several 1p/220v equipment such as compessor, sawstop, cnc.?
Do you recommend a PP over the RPC?? I did research on the two and it all has been a bit confusing. Can someone please break it down specific to my situation?
Many thank you’s and drinks on me if we meet!
?
On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:32 AM David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
Yes, bandsaw could go slower for resawing.? WB will have three motors.? The jointer is a good candidate as you can run it a little faster than 3600.? Not too much higher because Oliver 166 had
standard stamped steel cage bearings vs the precision used by porter.? If they are still oil bath you can go up to 70 hz unless running for long periods.? If replaced with sealed grease, I'd be more careful.
Your stuff is ideal for a PP or RPC.? Put a vfd on those machines that benefit the most as money permits after the one time cough up for the RPC or PP.? I don't want to rain on Jack's parade as
he is a friend but we disagree some on the vfd thing.
I did a vfd conversion on a lathe that had a three speed motor.? I needed a new motor so decided to gut the machine.? Great result but the vfd, switches, relays, enclosure, extra stuff I screwed
up or got wrong, etc, totalled between 1500-2000.? I'm guessing to do the saw or sander right you could get into that range.? Dave
Everything is old save the martin and widebelt. Widebelt is electronic rise and fall btw.?
Bandsaw is 36” with 900rpm. Would love to slow her down.?
?
On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:17 AM David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
The sander and the saw are the two I'd prefer an RPC or PP for sure.? The planer, if an old 399 has one motor but if you upgrade to a larger machine, it will likely have two, making the conversion
harder and more expensive.? The bandsaw is a great candidate depending on the motor rpm.? Northfield sped'd motors from 600-1200 rpm on their direct drive saws and the higher rpm ones can stand being throttled back with a vfd.? Dave
Well I am certainly happy we are discussing all this. I am also not set in my ways and open to new information.?
The other benefit of the VFD was the soft start to prevent spiking current draw.?
Just to give you a sense of my machines:
3hp 18” oliver planer (may upgrade to 25” oliver)
7.5hp martin t60c (separate scoring motor with electronic rise fall and tilt)
I typically have the DC running 1/2 to 3/4 of the day, the martin 1/4 the day, northfield for an hour or so couple times per week, planer and jointer half a day once a week and sporadically otherwise, and the sander for a couple hours once
a week.?
With all this what would y’all recommend.?
I appreciate your time and thoughts.?
?
On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 9:24 AM Airtight: Clamps by Air Compression <airtightclamps@...> wrote:
American rotary makes very nice ADX units reasonably priced and can set up however you want on all time auto start and variable sizes. Quite powerful moderately priced.
Mac,,,
martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330?cell
Designing and building for 50 years
On Jul 23, 2021, at 9:57 AM, imranindiana via
<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Ignoring implementation complications, in general VFDs are fine when the reason is to run 3p motor with 1p service. However, be aware that changing RPM (primarily slowing the motor) will cause fan to run slow and heat up the motor. The
motor in the machine is designed for constant speed and fan mounted on the shaft delivers the air required to keep it cool.
So if one has to run the standard motor at slower speeds usually a blower is introduced to provide cooling air.
I personally will never take the path you are considering. If I could not get a PhasePerfect, I would go with a RPC for multiple machines instead of VFDs. The exception would be a machine like a dust collector which requires no change to
the machine to run on VFD.
In case of dust collector, as Brandon pointed out, VFD provides the added benefit of various controls. Turning the DC on/off is super easy. In fact, if all your machines run on a single 3 phase controller all you need is one current sensing
relay to turn DC on/off automatically. That is what I have implemented with Phase Perfect but same could be done with an RPC.
?
I have, but he convinced me that vfds are better. If one goes down, the rest of the machines still work, plus you can play with motor speeds and what not.? Also you dont need to run a big phase perfect if you are only using one machine
so it is also more energy efficient.?
?
Taylor, Jack knows his way around for sure and would never question his experience but have you looked into doing a Phase Perfect??
?
I am in the process of purchasing VFD’s for all my 3 phase equipment as I move to a rural shop.?
I am speaking with Jack Forsberg who helps people with this exact issue and is super knowledgeable about motors. The CPU is a bit tricky but hes gonna help me through it.?
?
I installed a VFD on my RL160. It has to be attached directly to the machine. You can NOT install a single VFD and run multiple machines. The leads to the motor should be as short as possible.? You will also need some motor plate information
which is extremely difficult to get to (on the RL160). I had Felder send me a picture of a motor plate to get the information I needed.
Also, Felder does NOT recommend using a VFD on their motors as they are not rated for VFD operations. The VFD is not a perfect sine wave and can set up oscillations in the windings that increase the mechanical stress and heating. A VFD-wound motor uses thicker
wire and varnish to resist these added stresses. I would not probably install this option on a machine that is used all day long, but for a hobby or part time machine, I think it's fine. The VFD on the dust collector also introduces the nice option to use
remote controls to trigger the run command while standing at your other equipment.
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Mac, I think you are joking ??
?
120 in the US is created by utility service L1 or L2 to neutral.? L1 to L2 is 240V. ?All 120V outlets from one breaker will all be on the same leg and
you can’t get 240 that way.? It could be possible if you knew which circuit was on L1 and which on L2.
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Airtight: Clamps by Air Compression
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 7:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] OT: ERIKA 60 in NA?
?
Tom I don’t know if any one mentioned this but if you have a 240 unit you can make a 240 outlet and power it wit two 120 plugs .?
Plug your saw into it for 240.
Mac,,,
Designing and building for 50 years
On Jul 27, 2021, at 1:59 PM, bacchus6015 via groups.io <joeinno@...> wrote:
?Tom,
Have you considered a 240 volt portable battery set up? ?
Like this only 240 volts? ?
Chris Chan from Rangate helped me find an inverter to use with my battery powered stacker for when the power would go out in my shop so I could still open the garage door with the remote. ?There was plenty of power in the stacker battery
pack but it would probably be too heavy to be portable. ?
?
On Jul 27, 2021, at 7:39 AM,
tom@... wrote:
?
[Edited Message Follows]
Greetings!?
I had considered posting this in the Mafell forum, but I suspect there's a little more electrical aptitude here. I've been using a Mafell ERIKA 70 for several years now for my on-site work, and I just can't say enough good things about it. For those not familiar
with the machines, this video gives a brief overview of pull-push saws:??They are sort of like a portable sliding saw, with the option to either
rip or crosscut depending on how you configure it. Changing configurations only takes a couple seconds, and for crosscutting I've found it far more accurate than a miter saw.?
While I am trying to perform more work in my Shop, I think I am destined to spend a sizable portion of my career performing work on-site, so having a good portable solution is important.?
Anyways, with the recent minor facelift of the Erika line, Mafell has discontinued the 120V option on the Erika 70, leaving all of the Erika models now in only 240V. I believe that the machines destined for the NA market are 240V 60Hz, "stock" machines are
240V 50Hz. So, I'm going to jealously guard my 120V Erika 70, but I can see the writing on the walls, and was wondering what my options might be in the future should I either:
?1. Need to replace my Erika 70 120V with a Erika 70 or 85 240V 60Hz, or:
2. Acquire a Erika 60 240V 50Hz for those small jobs where the 70/85 is overkill
My requirements are:
- Need to be able to work on-site in residential settings, with access only to 120V 60hz power.
- Needs to supply 240V 60Hz (50Hz would be nice for the Erika 60), the Erika 85 draws 2,500 watts, the Erika 60 draws 1,300 watts
- Needs to be a portable solution (preferably <40 lbs)
- Needs to be a solution that is weather tolerant (needs to be able to handle snow, drizzle, heat, cold, etc.....)
- If it’s a battery solution, I can charge 240V in my Shop overnight
- I am usually able to prep most of my materials ahead of time in my Shop, so the on-site work is mostly ripping and trimming cuts. This is a low-volume, one-person show, so not terribly intensive use
I suppose the simplest solution would be something like the Festool Sys-Powerstation??,
but I wonder if there are portable step-up transformers or "hardened" VFD solutions? In terms of the Festool Sys-Powerstation, I wonder if anybody would be willing to work with me to get a 240V model imported to NA (please message me privately for this). Or,
am I simply out of luck and need to start going with the flow, reverting back to a miter saw and table saw (say it ain't so!!)??
Anyways, I know there's a lot of creativity here, and would be curious what thoughts folks might have. Thank you in advance for any tips or advice.....?
(Edit: clarified requirements)?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
?
|
Figured someone more sophisticated with the electrical thing would give insight,? I think it can be electrocuted I mean executed! In another way as it is 240 ?but not my thing.? Mac,,, Designing and building for 50 years
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On Jul 28, 2021, at 10:15 PM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
? This may work in some cases, but not if one or both circuits are GFCIs, and you create an unsafe situation where if one plug is unplugged, the unplugged male plug can have live voltage.? On Jul 28, 2021, at 9:52 PM, Airtight: Clamps by Air Compression <airtightclamps@...> wrote:
? Tom I don’t know if any one mentioned this but if you have a 240 unit you can make a 240 outlet and power it wit two 120 plugs .? Plug your saw into it for 240. Mac,,, Designing and building for 50 years On Jul 27, 2021, at 1:59 PM, bacchus6015 via groups.io <joeinno@...> wrote:
? Tom,
Have you considered a 240 volt portable battery set up? ?
Like this only 240 volts? ?
Chris Chan from Rangate helped me find an inverter to use with my battery powered stacker for when the power would go out in my shop so I could still open the garage door with the remote. ?There was plenty of power in the stacker battery pack but it would probably be too heavy to be portable. ?
Joe
On Jul 27, 2021, at 7:39 AM, tom@... wrote:
[Edited Message Follows] Greetings!?
I had considered posting this in the Mafell forum, but I suspect there's a little more electrical aptitude here. I've been using a Mafell ERIKA 70 for several years now for my on-site work, and I just can't say enough good things about it. For those not familiar with the machines, this video gives a brief overview of pull-push saws:??They are sort of like a portable sliding saw, with the option to either rip or crosscut depending on how you configure it. Changing configurations only takes a couple seconds, and for crosscutting I've found it far more accurate than a miter saw.?
While I am trying to perform more work in my Shop, I think I am destined to spend a sizable portion of my career performing work on-site, so having a good portable solution is important.?
Anyways, with the recent minor facelift of the Erika line, Mafell has discontinued the 120V option on the Erika 70, leaving all of the Erika models now in only 240V. I believe that the machines destined for the NA market are 240V 60Hz, "stock" machines are 240V 50Hz. So, I'm going to jealously guard my 120V Erika 70, but I can see the writing on the walls, and was wondering what my options might be in the future should I either:
?1. Need to replace my Erika 70 120V with a Erika 70 or 85 240V 60Hz, or:
2. Acquire a Erika 60 240V 50Hz for those small jobs where the 70/85 is overkill
My requirements are:
- Need to be able to work on-site in residential settings, with access only to 120V 60hz power. - Needs to supply 240V 60Hz (50Hz would be nice for the Erika 60), the Erika 85 draws 2,500 watts, the Erika 60 draws 1,300 watts - Needs to be a portable solution (preferably <40 lbs)
- Needs to be a solution that is weather tolerant (needs to be able to handle snow, drizzle, heat, cold, etc.....)
- If it’s a battery solution, I can charge 240V in my Shop overnight
- I am usually able to prep most of my materials ahead of time in my Shop, so the on-site work is mostly ripping and trimming cuts. This is a low-volume, one-person show, so not terribly intensive use
I suppose the simplest solution would be something like the Festool Sys-Powerstation??, but I wonder if there are portable step-up transformers or "hardened" VFD solutions? In terms of the Festool Sys-Powerstation, I wonder if anybody would be willing to work with me to get a 240V model imported to NA (please message me privately for this). Or, am I simply out of luck and need to start going with the flow, reverting back to a miter saw and table saw (say it ain't so!!)??
Anyways, I know there's a lot of creativity here, and would be curious what thoughts folks might have. Thank you in advance for any tips or advice.....?
(Edit: clarified requirements)?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Greg,
I’ll be interested in hearing when you actually take delivery. I ordered around the same time of the year last year and delivery took nearly an entire year. I wouldn’t be surprised if it works out the same for you.
—闯补谤别诲
On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 6:06 PM Greg Mix < gregnmix@...> wrote: Interesting thread. I just ordered an AD741 for delivery in December/January so everything here is going to be tremendously useful. When it arrives it will have to go on a mobile base. My first thought was the Sawstop Industrial base that you used Marc. I have one under my saw and it works extremely well. But it’s rated at 1,000 lbs. and the AD741 is spec’d at 1,300lbs. You stiffened and lengthened the Sawstop base which was necessary and helped with strength. But I’m wondering if there’s another weak link that may have given the base that rating. You’ve been using it for a little while now, have you had any trouble with the lift or the wheels being able to handle the load of the jointer/planer??
|
In my case, I need to be able to turn or move lengthwise in pretty tight quarters and as I understand it, the Felder kit doesn’t do that. If it does, I would have gone that direction, but it looked similar to the mobility kit on my laguna bandsaw - which will eventually be upgraded to a sawstop base.?
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On Jul 29, 2021, at 11:59 AM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote:
? Have you considered ordering the Felder mobility kit designed for the machine? ? Have you seen this video?
?? David Best - via mobile phone? On Jul 29, 2021, at 8:06 AM, Greg Mix <gregnmix@...> wrote:
? Interesting thread. I just ordered an AD741 for delivery in December/January so everything here is going to be tremendously useful. When it arrives it will have to go on a mobile base. My first thought was the Sawstop Industrial base that you used Marc. I have one under my saw and it works extremely well. But it’s rated at 1,000 lbs. and the AD741 is spec’d at 1,300lbs. You stiffened and lengthened the Sawstop base which was necessary and helped with strength. But I’m wondering if there’s another weak link that may have given the base that rating. You’ve been using it for a little while now, have you had any trouble with the lift or the wheels being able to handle the load of the jointer/planer??
|
Have you considered ordering the Felder mobility kit designed for the machine? ? Have you seen this video?
?? David Best - via mobile phone?
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On Jul 29, 2021, at 8:06 AM, Greg Mix <gregnmix@...> wrote:
? Interesting thread. I just ordered an AD741 for delivery in December/January so everything here is going to be tremendously useful. When it arrives it will have to go on a mobile base. My first thought was the Sawstop Industrial base that you used Marc. I have one under my saw and it works extremely well. But it’s rated at 1,000 lbs. and the AD741 is spec’d at 1,300lbs. You stiffened and lengthened the Sawstop base which was necessary and helped with strength. But I’m wondering if there’s another weak link that may have given the base that rating. You’ve been using it for a little while now, have you had any trouble with the lift or the wheels being able to handle the load of the jointer/planer??
|
David P. Best
imran
JP Rice
Albert Lee
Joe Jensen