The guy I bought the Kundig Wide Belt sander has a PP that he wans to sell.? I did not get a price as I don¡¯t need it. It was smaller and blue so I
assume it¡¯s older.? Let me know if anyone wants his contact info
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of imranindiana via groups.io
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] VFD
?
??Just couple of things to add to what has been shared already. If you are running a business loss of 3P source has real consequences. However, PP is super reliable based upon my experience (i have a used one from ~2006) and what I have
read here for nearly 2 decades. I have never had a reason to check so I do not know the answer. Find out what replacement/repair assurance PP can provide.
On David¡¯s comment on RPCs, I did make my own and sold it after 15 yrs and it is still running. But, generally speaking, on a home built basic RPC, voltage/current balancing works well for same size motors. So it worked well for KF with
same size motors. Although, there is usually enough margin to keep output in safe range. Typically, wild leg can be sent to the motor leg.
On Jul 23, 2021, at 2:14 PM, David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
?
DB here is the better source but I do have a Kay and three PP, 10,20,30 hp.? Obviously I think the PP is the best choice for a whole shop wide range solution.? The older RPC were fine but could
only be balanced for a range of HP.? For instance, a RPC that could start a hard starting 20 hp motor, wasn't a great solution when running a 1 hp motor unless other motors were running.? The PP is balanced at any amperage output and very quiet.? Cost is the
deal here.? 20 hp RPC ( or 40 hp depending on brand rating ) will be 2-3K less than a 20 hp PP.? If you put a couple of vfds on the DC and Bandsaw, you will save enough by buying a 10 hp to pay for the vfds but no real economic gain.? I run a 30 hp PP in the
big shop and a 10 hp at home, coupled with a separate vfd to run the DC.? I have the Kay on a transfer switch in case the PP craps out but that hasn't happened yet in 10 years.
If the PP is out of reach, I'd still take an electronically balanced RPC providing the Martin runs OK on it.? Lots of people make their own or buy a used one and balance it themselves and save
money.? Above my pay grade to do so.? Dave
Thank you for all this info. I also have several 1p/220v equipment such as compessor, sawstop, cnc.?
Do you recommend a PP over the RPC?? I did research on the two and it all has been a bit confusing. Can someone please break it down specific to my situation?
Many thank you¡¯s and drinks on me if we meet!
?
On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:32 AM David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
Yes, bandsaw could go slower for resawing.? WB will have three motors.? The jointer is a good candidate as you can run it a little faster than 3600.? Not too much higher because Oliver 166 had
standard stamped steel cage bearings vs the precision used by porter.? If they are still oil bath you can go up to 70 hz unless running for long periods.? If replaced with sealed grease, I'd be more careful.
Your stuff is ideal for a PP or RPC.? Put a vfd on those machines that benefit the most as money permits after the one time cough up for the RPC or PP.? I don't want to rain on Jack's parade as
he is a friend but we disagree some on the vfd thing.
I did a vfd conversion on a lathe that had a three speed motor.? I needed a new motor so decided to gut the machine.? Great result but the vfd, switches, relays, enclosure, extra stuff I screwed
up or got wrong, etc, totalled between 1500-2000.? I'm guessing to do the saw or sander right you could get into that range.? Dave
Everything is old save the martin and widebelt. Widebelt is electronic rise and fall btw.?
Bandsaw is 36¡± with 900rpm. Would love to slow her down.?
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On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:17 AM David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
The sander and the saw are the two I'd prefer an RPC or PP for sure.? The planer, if an old 399 has one motor but if you upgrade to a larger machine, it will likely have two, making the conversion
harder and more expensive.? The bandsaw is a great candidate depending on the motor rpm.? Northfield sped'd motors from 600-1200 rpm on their direct drive saws and the higher rpm ones can stand being throttled back with a vfd.? Dave
Well I am certainly happy we are discussing all this. I am also not set in my ways and open to new information.?
The other benefit of the VFD was the soft start to prevent spiking current draw.?
Just to give you a sense of my machines:
3hp 18¡± oliver planer (may upgrade to 25¡± oliver)
7.5hp martin t60c (separate scoring motor with electronic rise fall and tilt)
I typically have the DC running 1/2 to 3/4 of the day, the martin 1/4 the day, northfield for an hour or so couple times per week, planer and jointer half a day once a week and sporadically otherwise, and the sander for a couple hours once
a week.?
With all this what would y¡¯all recommend.?
I appreciate your time and thoughts.?
?
On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 9:24 AM Airtight: Clamps by Air Compression <airtightclamps@...> wrote:
American rotary makes very nice ADX units reasonably priced and can set up however you want on all time auto start and variable sizes. Quite powerful moderately priced.
Mac,,,
martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330?cell
Designing and building for 50 years
On Jul 23, 2021, at 9:57 AM, imranindiana via
<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
Ignoring implementation complications, in general VFDs are fine when the reason is to run 3p motor with 1p service. However, be aware that changing RPM (primarily slowing the motor) will cause fan to run slow and heat up the motor. The
motor in the machine is designed for constant speed and fan mounted on the shaft delivers the air required to keep it cool.
So if one has to run the standard motor at slower speeds usually a blower is introduced to provide cooling air.
I personally will never take the path you are considering. If I could not get a PhasePerfect, I would go with a RPC for multiple machines instead of VFDs. The exception would be a machine like a dust collector which requires no change to
the machine to run on VFD.
In case of dust collector, as Brandon pointed out, VFD provides the added benefit of various controls. Turning the DC on/off is super easy. In fact, if all your machines run on a single 3 phase controller all you need is one current sensing
relay to turn DC on/off automatically. That is what I have implemented with Phase Perfect but same could be done with an RPC.
?
I have, but he convinced me that vfds are better. If one goes down, the rest of the machines still work, plus you can play with motor speeds and what not.? Also you dont need to run a big phase perfect if you are only using one machine
so it is also more energy efficient.?
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Taylor, Jack knows his way around for sure and would never question his experience but have you looked into doing a Phase Perfect??
?
I am in the process of purchasing VFD¡¯s for all my 3 phase equipment as I move to a rural shop.?
I am speaking with Jack Forsberg who helps people with this exact issue and is super knowledgeable about motors. The CPU is a bit tricky but hes gonna help me through it.?
?
I installed a VFD on my RL160. It has to be attached directly to the machine. You can NOT install a single VFD and run multiple machines. The leads to the motor should be as short as possible.? You will also need some motor plate information
which is extremely difficult to get to (on the RL160). I had Felder send me a picture of a motor plate to get the information I needed.
Also, Felder does NOT recommend using a VFD on their motors as they are not rated for VFD operations. The VFD is not a perfect sine wave and can set up oscillations in the windings that increase the mechanical stress and heating. A VFD-wound motor uses thicker
wire and varnish to resist these added stresses. I would not probably install this option on a machine that is used all day long, but for a hobby or part time machine, I think it's fine. The VFD on the dust collector also introduces the nice option to use
remote controls to trigger the run command while standing at your other equipment.
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Joe Jensen