Re: Applying Biesemeyer Tape
thanks Brian. you are correct, the scale is held in channel not glued. i have not opened the package but i expect this to be not stiff enough to be used on it¡¯s own. i intend to stick it to the AL band that came with the short xcut fence. i was torn between this and a steel option from mcmaster carr. there was not a good pic of scale markings on mcmaster and biesemeyer is recommended in survival guide.
BTW, not a fan of the AL bands. once accidentally bent it is almost impossible to make if lay flat.
imran
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On Oct 9, 2020, at 8:55 AM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote: ? The Starrett Measure-Stix I use are self adhesive and you can stick them to pretty much anything. I usually clean with an alcohol swab right before I stick them down to make sure no oils are present. My cross cut fences clamp the tape measures in place, they are not stuck down¡. but I don¡¯t have the short fence so maybe it¡¯s different.
i got following for the short xcut fence.
even though it is adhesive backed, directions say to use a spray adhesive on the substrate before fixing it. i was not expecting to have to do that. does anyone know if this is necessary?
imran?
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Re: Applying Biesemeyer Tape
I stuck mine down after cleaning the fence with acetone.. never had an issue with it coming loose.. I did not use the spray adhesive either
On Friday, October 9, 2020, 06:07:36 AM PDT, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:
Imran, I do the same as Brian. Maybe if ¡°substrate¡± is porous they are recommending that so the ¡°substrate¡± doesn¡¯t suck up some of the pre-applied stick on the tape and weaken the bond. ? On Oct 9, 2020, at 8:55 AM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
The Starrett Measure-Stix I use are self adhesive and you can stick them to pretty much anything. I usually clean with an alcohol swab right before I stick them down to make sure no oils are present. My cross cut fences clamp the tape measures in place, they are not stuck down¡. but I don¡¯t have the short fence so maybe it¡¯s different.
i got following for the short xcut fence.
even though it is adhesive backed, directions say to use a spray adhesive on the substrate before fixing it. i was not expecting to have to do that. does anyone know if this is necessary?
imran?
|
Re: Cutting mitered bridal joint
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Maybe you should have used a chisel :) Dave Davies On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 7:45 AM Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: A tall cutter would have worked on smaller parts, but that table was over 6¡¯ long and I might have been able to do the two long edges, would have hit the ceiling trying to do the narrow ones. I¡¯m sure a talented person could have done it with a hand plane¡ but that¡¯s not me...
On Oct 8, 2020, at 8:43 PM, Mark Foster < mfsta2lt@...> wrote:
Brian,
This is the major reason I bought the KF with a 9¡¯ slider. I could just see doing something like this! I really like my 4¡± tall spiral cutter with bearing for profiling larger parts.
Mark Foster On Oct 8, 2020, at 8:01 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
The bevel was a real butt pucker set up¡. This picture is kind of dark, but you can see the shaper with the blade on it. I raised the actual table up with two layers of 3/4¡± ply to get it tall enough to cut as thin as I wanted, but not have the other end of the blade hit the table.?On Oct 8, 2020, at 7:05 PM, Mark Foster < mfsta2lt@...> wrote:
Brian,
Thank you for posting. I really like the Maple and Bubinga contrast. The taper on the underside of the table top is elegant.
Marl Foster On Oct 8, 2020, at 6:35 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
Thank you! Like your table too, definitely a different look with the tenon on the lower section.On Oct 8, 2020, at 3:30 PM, mark thomas < murkyd@...> wrote:
Brian,?
Nice table, I like the 3-sided tapered legs and different wood feet.? Loosely reminds me of this walnut taper leg and koa foot I once did, which also has an odd mortise and tenon on diagonal.? ?
Michael, the stool is very nice, the joint seems perfect for it.? Is the one in photo tapered however?? ?How will you attach the slats?
<IMG_0695.jpeg>
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: Cutting mitered bridal joint
I built the legs and stand offs, drilled the mounting holes, laid the top upside down on a table, positioned the legs/base where I wanted it, spot drilled into the table bottom to mark the locations. Took the legs off and enlarged the holes in the top for brass inserts with machined threads on the inside, installed them. Then I took the base assembly and enlarged the holes from the top side part way thru. then, once everything was finished and bolted together, there was room for the bolts to tilt slightly with expansion and contraction.
Probably all over kill here in AZ, we don¡¯t have much trouble with that sort of thing.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
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On Oct 9, 2020, at 5:54 AM, Marlowe McGraw <marlomcgraw@...> wrote:
Well done Brian! How did you account for movement of the top in your attachment?
Marlowe
|
Re: Applying Biesemeyer Tape
Imran, I do the same as Brian. Maybe if ¡°substrate¡± is porous they are recommending that so the ¡°substrate¡± doesn¡¯t suck up some of the pre-applied stick on the tape and weaken the bond. ?
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Show quoted text
On Oct 9, 2020, at 8:55 AM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
? The Starrett Measure-Stix I use are self adhesive and you can stick them to pretty much anything. I usually clean with an alcohol swab right before I stick them down to make sure no oils are present. My cross cut fences clamp the tape measures in place, they are not stuck down¡. but I don¡¯t have the short fence so maybe it¡¯s different.
i got following for the short xcut fence.
even though it is adhesive backed, directions say to use a spray adhesive on the substrate before fixing it. i was not expecting to have to do that. does anyone know if this is necessary?
imran?
|
Re: Applying Biesemeyer Tape
The Starrett Measure-Stix I use are self adhesive and you can stick them to pretty much anything. I usually clean with an alcohol swab right before I stick them down to make sure no oils are present. My cross cut fences clamp the tape measures in place, they are not stuck down¡. but I don¡¯t have the short fence so maybe it¡¯s different.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
i got following for the short xcut fence.
even though it is adhesive backed, directions say to use a spray adhesive on the substrate before fixing it. i was not expecting to have to do that. does anyone know if this is necessary?
imran?
|
Re: Cutting mitered bridal joint
Well done Brian! How did you account for movement of the top in your attachment?
Marlowe?
On Fri, Oct 9, 2020, 7:45 AM Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: A tall cutter would have worked on smaller parts, but that table was over 6¡¯ long and I might have been able to do the two long edges, would have hit the ceiling trying to do the narrow ones. I¡¯m sure a talented person could have done it with a hand plane¡ but that¡¯s not me...
On Oct 8, 2020, at 8:43 PM, Mark Foster < mfsta2lt@...> wrote:
Brian,
This is the major reason I bought the KF with a 9¡¯ slider. I could just see doing something like this! I really like my 4¡± tall spiral cutter with bearing for profiling larger parts.
Mark Foster On Oct 8, 2020, at 8:01 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
The bevel was a real butt pucker set up¡. This picture is kind of dark, but you can see the shaper with the blade on it. I raised the actual table up with two layers of 3/4¡± ply to get it tall enough to cut as thin as I wanted, but not have the other end of the blade hit the table.?On Oct 8, 2020, at 7:05 PM, Mark Foster < mfsta2lt@...> wrote:
Brian,
Thank you for posting. I really like the Maple and Bubinga contrast. The taper on the underside of the table top is elegant.
Marl Foster On Oct 8, 2020, at 6:35 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
Thank you! Like your table too, definitely a different look with the tenon on the lower section.On Oct 8, 2020, at 3:30 PM, mark thomas < murkyd@...> wrote:
Brian,?
Nice table, I like the 3-sided tapered legs and different wood feet.? Loosely reminds me of this walnut taper leg and koa foot I once did, which also has an odd mortise and tenon on diagonal.? ?
Michael, the stool is very nice, the joint seems perfect for it.? Is the one in photo tapered however?? ?How will you attach the slats?
<IMG_0695.jpeg>
|
Re: Cutting mitered bridal joint
Maybe you should have used a chisel :) Dave Davies
On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 7:45 AM Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: A tall cutter would have worked on smaller parts, but that table was over 6¡¯ long and I might have been able to do the two long edges, would have hit the ceiling trying to do the narrow ones. I¡¯m sure a talented person could have done it with a hand plane¡ but that¡¯s not me...
On Oct 8, 2020, at 8:43 PM, Mark Foster < mfsta2lt@...> wrote:
Brian,
This is the major reason I bought the KF with a 9¡¯ slider. I could just see doing something like this! I really like my 4¡± tall spiral cutter with bearing for profiling larger parts.
Mark Foster On Oct 8, 2020, at 8:01 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
The bevel was a real butt pucker set up¡. This picture is kind of dark, but you can see the shaper with the blade on it. I raised the actual table up with two layers of 3/4¡± ply to get it tall enough to cut as thin as I wanted, but not have the other end of the blade hit the table.?On Oct 8, 2020, at 7:05 PM, Mark Foster < mfsta2lt@...> wrote:
Brian,
Thank you for posting. I really like the Maple and Bubinga contrast. The taper on the underside of the table top is elegant.
Marl Foster On Oct 8, 2020, at 6:35 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
Thank you! Like your table too, definitely a different look with the tenon on the lower section.On Oct 8, 2020, at 3:30 PM, mark thomas < murkyd@...> wrote:
Brian,?
Nice table, I like the 3-sided tapered legs and different wood feet.? Loosely reminds me of this walnut taper leg and koa foot I once did, which also has an odd mortise and tenon on diagonal.? ?
Michael, the stool is very nice, the joint seems perfect for it.? Is the one in photo tapered however?? ?How will you attach the slats?
<IMG_0695.jpeg>
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: Cutting mitered bridal joint
A tall cutter would have worked on smaller parts, but that table was over 6¡¯ long and I might have been able to do the two long edges, would have hit the ceiling trying to do the narrow ones. I¡¯m sure a talented person could have done it with a hand plane¡ but that¡¯s not me...
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Show quoted text
On Oct 8, 2020, at 8:43 PM, Mark Foster < mfsta2lt@...> wrote:
Brian,
This is the major reason I bought the KF with a 9¡¯ slider. I could just see doing something like this! I really like my 4¡± tall spiral cutter with bearing for profiling larger parts.
Mark Foster On Oct 8, 2020, at 8:01 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
The bevel was a real butt pucker set up¡. This picture is kind of dark, but you can see the shaper with the blade on it. I raised the actual table up with two layers of 3/4¡± ply to get it tall enough to cut as thin as I wanted, but not have the other end of the blade hit the table.?On Oct 8, 2020, at 7:05 PM, Mark Foster < mfsta2lt@...> wrote:
Brian,
Thank you for posting. I really like the Maple and Bubinga contrast. The taper on the underside of the table top is elegant.
Marl Foster On Oct 8, 2020, at 6:35 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
Thank you! Like your table too, definitely a different look with the tenon on the lower section.On Oct 8, 2020, at 3:30 PM, mark thomas < murkyd@...> wrote:
Brian,?
Nice table, I like the 3-sided tapered legs and different wood feet.? Loosely reminds me of this walnut taper leg and koa foot I once did, which also has an odd mortise and tenon on diagonal.? ?
Michael, the stool is very nice, the joint seems perfect for it.? Is the one in photo tapered however?? ?How will you attach the slats?
<IMG_0695.jpeg>
|
i got following for the short xcut fence.
even though it is adhesive backed, directions say to use a spray adhesive on the substrate before fixing it. i was not expecting to have to do that. does anyone know if this is necessary?
imran?
|
Re: Cutting mitered bridal joint
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On 9 Oct 2020, at 1:01 pm, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
The bevel was a real butt pucker set up¡. This picture is kind of dark, but you can see the shaper with the blade on it. I raised the actual table up with two layers of 3/4¡± ply to get it tall enough to cut as thin as I wanted, but not have the other end of the blade hit the table.?
On Oct 8, 2020, at 7:05 PM, Mark Foster < mfsta2lt@...> wrote:
Brian,
Thank you for posting. I really like the Maple and Bubinga contrast. The taper on the underside of the table top is elegant.
Marl Foster On Oct 8, 2020, at 6:35 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
Thank you! Like your table too, definitely a different look with the tenon on the lower section.On Oct 8, 2020, at 3:30 PM, mark thomas < murkyd@...> wrote:
Brian,?
Nice table, I like the 3-sided tapered legs and different wood feet.? Loosely reminds me of this walnut taper leg and koa foot I once did, which also has an odd mortise and tenon on diagonal.? ?
Michael, the stool is very nice, the joint seems perfect for it.? Is the one in photo tapered however?? ?How will you attach the slats?
<IMG_0695.jpeg>
|
Re: Cutting mitered bridal joint
Brian,
This is the major reason I bought the KF with a 9¡¯ slider. I could just see doing something like this! I really like my 4¡± tall spiral cutter with bearing for profiling larger parts.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 8, 2020, at 8:01 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
The bevel was a real butt pucker set up¡. This picture is kind of dark, but you can see the shaper with the blade on it. I raised the actual table up with two layers of 3/4¡± ply to get it tall enough to cut as thin as I wanted, but not have the other end of the blade hit the table.?On Oct 8, 2020, at 7:05 PM, Mark Foster < mfsta2lt@...> wrote:
Brian,
Thank you for posting. I really like the Maple and Bubinga contrast. The taper on the underside of the table top is elegant.
Marl Foster On Oct 8, 2020, at 6:35 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
Thank you! Like your table too, definitely a different look with the tenon on the lower section.On Oct 8, 2020, at 3:30 PM, mark thomas < murkyd@...> wrote:
Brian,?
Nice table, I like the 3-sided tapered legs and different wood feet.? Loosely reminds me of this walnut taper leg and koa foot I once did, which also has an odd mortise and tenon on diagonal.? ?
Michael, the stool is very nice, the joint seems perfect for it.? Is the one in photo tapered however?? ?How will you attach the slats?
<IMG_0695.jpeg>
|
Re: Cutting mitered bridal joint
The bevel was a real butt pucker set up¡. This picture is kind of dark, but you can see the shaper with the blade on it. I raised the actual table up with two layers of 3/4¡± ply to get it tall enough to cut as thin as I wanted, but not have the other end of the blade hit the table.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 8, 2020, at 7:05 PM, Mark Foster < mfsta2lt@...> wrote:
Brian,
Thank you for posting. I really like the Maple and Bubinga contrast. The taper on the underside of the table top is elegant.
Marl Foster On Oct 8, 2020, at 6:35 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
Thank you! Like your table too, definitely a different look with the tenon on the lower section.On Oct 8, 2020, at 3:30 PM, mark thomas < murkyd@...> wrote:
Brian,?
Nice table, I like the 3-sided tapered legs and different wood feet.? Loosely reminds me of this walnut taper leg and koa foot I once did, which also has an odd mortise and tenon on diagonal.? ?
Michael, the stool is very nice, the joint seems perfect for it.? Is the one in photo tapered however?? ?How will you attach the slats?
<IMG_0695.jpeg>
|
Mark! You bring back good memories with your mention of Garrett Wade. I used to drool over the catalog as a teenager decades ago! Yep, actually 30 years ago!
Lucky
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David B, waxlit brings back memories of school and when I first started - out works great if I remember correctly, i think I use to get it mail order from Garrett Wade like 30 years ago.? David L, I use ren wax now as well works great and has no silicone easy to apply compared to paste wax and seems to last longer as well, It is a microcrystalline wax so it preforms different then a regular past wax and it last forever. I also use it on chisels, hand planes etc and get no rusting or ¡°Rust finger prints¡± from handling, but the best part... is the smell! I love the smell of it! On Oct 8, 2020, at 7:01 PM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
? On this note, I suspect that the Renaissance Wax is silicon free, but don¡¯t know for sure. I use it a lot on my machines without any finishing issues.
The small tin is widely available, but the 3L size is the way to go. David Best, my 3L tin shits all over your 1Kg tin. LOL. :-)
Warm regards,
David
Dr David Luckensmeyer
Business Manager
Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd
?
and
Designer and Woodworker
Luckensmeyer Pty Ltd
M: 0413 013 115
?
Waxlit is what I have used for decades.??It has no silicone and was specifically developed as a lube for table surfaces like jointer and planer beds. ?? <screenshot_4011.jpeg>
This has been discussed several times here on FOG over the years. ?You can buy small tins of it in the USA (), but I sourced my 5 year supply from Germany. ?? ??
What is the name of the wax guaranteed not to have silicone?
Marlowe? ?a tad off topic but I feel a need to mention it.
I used to use Johnson¡¯s paste wax to lubricate my machine tables, and had persistent problems w/ fish eye downstream when finishing pieces. I eventually decided that Johnson¡¯s must have silicone of some sort in it, so I ?cleaned all my tools w/ mineral spirits and switched to a wax that was guaranteed silicone free. I haven¡¯t had problems w/ fish eye since.
Anyone else w/ similar experiences?
|
Re: Cutting mitered bridal joint
Mark, I think the legs on the photo might be angled outwards somewhat, or maybe it¡¯s the camera angle.?
I made my legs straight, for now. I might revisit and try a non straight mitered bridle joints.
The top boards will sitt in grooves. Haven¡¯t decided how to make them. Maybe I¡¯ll make a jig like the ones for box joints on tablesaws. I can¡¯t use a dado blade on my saw, but I have a wide kerf blade, 6 mm.?
|
Re: Cutting mitered bridal joint
Brian,
Thank you for posting. I really like the Maple and Bubinga contrast. The taper on the underside of the table top is elegant.
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Show quoted text
On Oct 8, 2020, at 6:35 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
Thank you! Like your table too, definitely a different look with the tenon on the lower section.On Oct 8, 2020, at 3:30 PM, mark thomas < murkyd@...> wrote:
Brian,?
Nice table, I like the 3-sided tapered legs and different wood feet.? Loosely reminds me of this walnut taper leg and koa foot I once did, which also has an odd mortise and tenon on diagonal.? ?
Michael, the stool is very nice, the joint seems perfect for it.? Is the one in photo tapered however?? ?How will you attach the slats?
<IMG_0695.jpeg>
|
Re: Cutting mitered bridal joint
Thank you! Like your table too, definitely a different look with the tenon on the lower section.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 8, 2020, at 3:30 PM, mark thomas < murkyd@...> wrote:
Brian,
Nice table, I like the 3-sided tapered legs and different wood feet.? Loosely reminds me of this walnut taper leg and koa foot I once did, which also has an odd mortise and tenon on diagonal.? ?
Michael, the stool is very nice, the joint seems perfect for it.? Is the one in photo tapered however?? ?How will you attach the slats?
<IMG_0695.jpeg>
|
I know! I sent the email and realised I¡¯d copied the wrong pic. The link will take you to 200mL or 3L.? 
Warm regards, David
Dr David Luckensmeyer Business Manager Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd melissaluckensmeyer.com.au
and
Designer and Woodworker Luckensmeyer Pty Ltd M: 0413 013 115 luckensmeyer.com.au
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On 9 Oct 2020, at 11:07 am, habacomike via groups.io <habacomike@...> wrote:
? Looks a bit smaller than 3L¡.? On Oct 8, 2020, at 5:01 PM, David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote:
On this note, I suspect that the Renaissance Wax is silicon free, but don¡¯t know for sure. I use it a lot on my machines without any finishing issues.
The small tin is widely available, but the 3L size is the way to go. David Best, my 3L tin shits all over your 1Kg tin. LOL. :-)
Warm regards,
David
Dr David Luckensmeyer
Business Manager
Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd
?
and
Designer and Woodworker
Luckensmeyer Pty Ltd
M: 0413 013 115
?
Waxlit is what I have used for decades.??It has no silicone and was specifically developed as a lube for table surfaces like jointer and planer beds. ?? <screenshot_4011.jpeg>
This has been discussed several times here on FOG over the years. ?You can buy small tins of it in the USA (), but I sourced my 5 year supply from Germany. ?? ??
What is the name of the wax guaranteed not to have silicone?
Marlowe? ?a tad off topic but I feel a need to mention it.?
I used to use Johnson¡¯s paste wax to lubricate my machine tables, and had persistent problems w/ fish eye downstream when finishing pieces. I eventually decided that Johnson¡¯s must have silicone of some sort in it, so I ?cleaned all my tools w/ mineral spirits and switched to a wax that was guaranteed silicone free. I haven¡¯t had problems w/ fish eye since.
Anyone else w/ similar experiences?
|
Looks a bit smaller than 3L¡.?
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On Oct 8, 2020, at 5:01 PM, David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote:
On this note, I suspect that the Renaissance Wax is silicon free, but don¡¯t know for sure. I use it a lot on my machines without any finishing issues.
The small tin is widely available, but the 3L size is the way to go. David Best, my 3L tin shits all over your 1Kg tin. LOL. :-)
Warm regards,
David
Dr David Luckensmeyer
Business Manager
Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd
?
and
Designer and Woodworker
Luckensmeyer Pty Ltd
M: 0413 013 115
?
Waxlit is what I have used for decades.??It has no silicone and was specifically developed as a lube for table surfaces like jointer and planer beds. ?? <screenshot_4011.jpeg>
This has been discussed several times here on FOG over the years. ?You can buy small tins of it in the USA (), but I sourced my 5 year supply from Germany. ?? ??
What is the name of the wax guaranteed not to have silicone?
Marlowe? ?a tad off topic but I feel a need to mention it.?
I used to use Johnson¡¯s paste wax to lubricate my machine tables, and had persistent problems w/ fish eye downstream when finishing pieces. I eventually decided that Johnson¡¯s must have silicone of some sort in it, so I ?cleaned all my tools w/ mineral spirits and switched to a wax that was guaranteed silicone free. I haven¡¯t had problems w/ fish eye since.
Anyone else w/ similar experiences?
|
"It contains no silicone and can be removed if needed by using mineral spirits."
David B, waxlit brings back memories of school and when I first started - out works great if I remember correctly, i think I use to get it mail order from Garrett Wade like 30 years ago.? David L, I use ren wax now as well works great and has no silicone easy to apply compared to paste wax and seems to last longer as well, It is a microcrystalline wax so it preforms different then a regular past wax and it last forever. I also use it on chisels, hand planes etc and get no rusting or ¡°Rust finger prints¡± from handling, but the best part... is the smell! I love the smell of it! On Oct 8, 2020, at 7:01 PM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?On this note, I suspect that the Renaissance Wax is silicon free, but don¡¯t know for sure. I use it a lot on my machines without any finishing issues.
The small tin is widely available, but the 3L size is the way to go. David Best, my 3L tin shits all over your 1Kg tin. LOL. :-)
Warm regards,
David
Dr David Luckensmeyer
Business Manager
Luckensmeyer Medical Pty Ltd
?
and
Designer and Woodworker
Luckensmeyer Pty Ltd
M: 0413 013 115
?
Waxlit is what I have used for decades.??It has no silicone and was specifically developed as a lube for table surfaces like jointer and planer beds. ?? <screenshot_4011.jpeg>
This has been discussed several times here on FOG over the years.? You can buy small tins of it in the USA (), but I sourced my 5 year supply from Germany. ?? ??
What is the name of the wax guaranteed not to have silicone?
Marlowe? ?a tad off topic but I feel a need to mention it.
I used to use Johnson¡¯s paste wax to lubricate my machine tables, and had persistent problems w/ fish eye downstream when finishing pieces. I eventually decided that Johnson¡¯s must have silicone of some sort in it, so I ?cleaned all my tools w/ mineral spirits and switched to a wax that was guaranteed silicone free. I haven¡¯t had problems w/ fish eye since.
Anyone else w/ similar experiences?
|
imran
David Luckensmeyer
Mark Foster
Jeff