For heating my 900 square foot garage/shop, I went with a radiant tube heater.? One tube heats the entire garage.? I don¡¯t have to worry about dust and since the radiant heater heats objects and not the air, I don¡¯t lose as much heat when opening the garage door and it lessens the recovery time compared to forced air. I installed a Re-Verber-Ray brand for about $2,500 about 12 years ago. John Adank Onalaska, WI
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:09?AM Wade Dees via <wjdsignature= [email protected]> wrote: For my money, Hydronic heating is the way to go, if you can do it! ? It¡¯s quiet and out of site for the most part! ?
Wade ?If you're starting from scratch, I would at least look into the radiant floor heat option. ? My shop had a new concrete slab but it was sloped towards the middle for washing the previous owner's RV and that was going to make a terrible shop floor. ? I installed rigid insulation and tubing myself and the plumbing was easy enough. ? I run it from a cheap secondary gas hot water heater which I just turn off 6 months out of the year so I have no standby heat loss. ? This was 20 plus years ago and the system requires essentially zero maintenance. ? There are no filters to clean and no moving parts other than the hot water. ? A non forced-air system is also nice if you are going to be doing any finishing in the shop. ? There's nothing worse than having your HVAC turn on unexpectedly and blow dust all over the wet finish you just laid on.? The radiant heat is nice and even and with no moving air and wild temperature swings, my lumber and machines are perfectly happy. ? ?You don't get AC with such a system but I can get away without it here in the Pacific NW.    -Rusty
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For my money, Hydronic heating is the way to go, if you can do it! ? It¡¯s quiet and out of site for the most part! ?
Wade
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On Apr 23, 2024, at 5:50 PM, splinterboy <splinterboy@...> wrote:
?If you're starting from scratch, I would at least look into the radiant floor heat option. ? My shop had a new concrete slab but it was sloped towards the middle for washing the previous owner's RV and that was going to make a terrible shop floor. ? I installed rigid insulation and tubing myself and the plumbing was easy enough. ? I run it from a cheap secondary gas hot water heater which I just turn off 6 months out of the year so I have no standby heat loss. ? This was 20 plus years ago and the system requires essentially zero maintenance. ? There are no filters to clean and no moving parts other than the hot water. ? A non forced-air system is also nice if you are going to be doing any finishing in the shop. ? There's nothing worse than having your HVAC turn on unexpectedly and blow dust all over the wet finish you just laid on. ?The radiant heat is nice and even and with no moving air and wild temperature swings, my lumber and machines are perfectly happy. ? ?You don't get AC with such a system but I can get away without it here in the Pacific NW.    -Rusty
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PK:
Thank you for the mini split / dust collection comments.
Not my intent to hijack this thread, if the main topic is different¡
Recently, I expanded my shop from 400sq¡¯ to 800 sq¡¯, and upgraded the?dust collection to a dual in-line Clearvue Cyclone system. The other upgrade will be an 18k btu mini split to take the edge off of my Northeast Summers.
My experience with the Clearvue arrangement suggests the new?mini will be fine. My?sense is that the placements of the mini, relative to equipment, is important.
Do Take Care.
On Tuesday, April 23, 2024, 17:01, PK <pk@...> wrote: Kerry,
I have had a mini split in my last shop for 3 years or so.? 18k BTU for a 440sqft shop.? Poorly insulated and a 16' insulated garage door was a source of heat gain and loss for sure.
I have had pretty good dust collection so the build up was not a thing for me.? I cleaned it one time when I noticed the air flow drop.? It kept up well, but in 100+ degree days, if I opened the door to use the slider, the thing would take hours to catch up.
For the new shop (which is 924 sqft inside and a foot taller at 10'), I went a bit deeper.? I went with 2x6 construction which gave me R-23 in the walls and I had R-36 blown into the ceiling.? So the building is much tighter and better insulated.? I am moving the 18k to the rear of the shop and adding a 24k to the front of the shop.? I should be able to keep up with any weather and a short opening of the garage door.? I am installing them in two weeks, so I should know then.
Mine are wall handlers and there are specific instructions on wall height based on total ceiling height.? So I will be following that in the shop.
PK
--
Mike D.
Annapolis, MD
AD951; K700S; N4400
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Here in our 4000 square foot shop in Minneapolis, we have 2 Reznor hanging shop heaters. They are gas fired, forced air units. Don't go this route. We have regular issues with these heaters. We have good dust collection and housekeeping practices and still have had to replace inducer motors a few times. There's just not a good way to protect these from the dust. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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I would concur. ?Infloor heating is efficient comfortable and simple to operate.
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On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:50?PM, splinterboy via groups.io <splinterboy@...> wrote:
?If you're starting from scratch, I would at least look into the radiant floor heat option. ? My shop had a new concrete slab but it was sloped towards the middle for washing the previous owner's RV and that was going to make a terrible shop floor. ? I installed rigid insulation and tubing myself and the plumbing was easy enough. ? I run it from a cheap secondary gas hot water heater which I just turn off 6 months out of the year so I have no standby heat loss. ? This was 20 plus years ago and the system requires essentially zero maintenance. ? There are no filters to clean and no moving parts other than the hot water. ? A non forced-air system is also nice if you are going to be doing any finishing in the shop. ? There's nothing worse than having your HVAC turn on unexpectedly and blow dust all over the wet finish you just laid on. ?The radiant heat is nice and even and with no moving air and wild temperature swings, my lumber and machines are perfectly happy. ? ?You don't get AC with such a system but I can get away without it here in the Pacific NW. <112_1214.JPG> <112_1223.JPG> <112_1215.JPG> -Rusty
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If you're starting from scratch, I would at least look into the radiant floor heat option. ? My shop had a new concrete slab but it was sloped towards the middle for washing the previous owner's RV and that was going to make a terrible shop floor. ? I installed rigid insulation and tubing myself and the plumbing was easy enough. ? I run it from a cheap secondary gas hot water heater which I just turn off 6 months out of the year so I have no standby heat loss. ? This was 20 plus years ago and the system requires essentially zero maintenance. ? There are no filters to clean and no moving parts other than the hot water. ? A non forced-air system is also nice if you are going to be doing any finishing in the shop. ? There's nothing worse than having your HVAC turn on unexpectedly and blow dust all over the wet finish you just laid on. ?The radiant heat is nice and even and with no moving air and wild temperature swings, my lumber and machines are perfectly happy. ? ?You don't get AC with such a system but I can get away without it here in the Pacific NW.    -Rusty
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I have a mini split for my modest shop. Did foam insulation, which when paired with 2x6 construction and taller ceilings makes for a great and economical hvac system. I occasionally clean the filter but it performs wonderfully for my needs.?
Kerry,
I have had a mini split in my last shop for 3 years or so.? 18k BTU for a 440sqft shop.? Poorly insulated and a 16' insulated garage door was a source of heat gain and loss for sure.
I have had pretty good dust collection so the build up was not a thing for me.? I cleaned it one time when I noticed the air flow drop.? It kept up well, but in 100+ degree days, if I opened the door to use the slider, the thing would take hours to catch up.
For the new shop (which is 924 sqft inside and a foot taller at 10'), I went a bit deeper.? I went with 2x6 construction which gave me R-23 in the walls and I had R-36 blown into the ceiling.? So the building is much tighter and better insulated.? I am moving the 18k to the rear of the shop and adding a 24k to the front of the shop.? I should be able to keep up with any weather and a short opening of the garage door.? I am installing them in two weeks, so I should know then.
Mine are wall handlers and there are specific instructions on wall height based on total ceiling height.? So I will be following that in the shop.
PK
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Kerry,
Congrats on the new building!? Hop it has all the access you want!
I have had a mini split in my last shop for 3 years or so.? 18k BTU for a 440sqft shop.? Poorly insulated and a 16' insulated garage door was a source of heat gain and loss for sure.
I have had pretty good dust collection so the build up was not a thing for me.? I cleaned it one time when I noticed the air flow drop.? It kept up well, but in 100+ degree days, if I opened the door to use the slider, the thing would take hours to catch up.
For the new shop (which is 924 sqft inside and a foot taller at 10'), I went a bit deeper.? I went with 2x6 construction which gave me R-23 in the walls and I had R-36 blown into the ceiling.? So the building is much tighter and better insulated.? I am moving the 18k to the rear of the shop and adding a 24k to the front of the shop.? I should be able to keep up with any weather and a short opening of the garage door.? I am installing them in two weeks, so I should know then.
Mine are wall handlers and there are specific instructions on wall height based on total ceiling height.? So I will be following that in the shop.
PK
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Kerry,?
I have experience with this.
My 1st building, in the active woodworking and touchup area (read as "lots of aerosolized particles") we used a 4-head wall cassette system something like 8 tons of hvac multizone minisplit. Another dedicated zone had a direct through-the-wall 2-ton system. This has been 10+ years running now, and this is what I've learned.
1. Good dust collection at the source prevents problems anywhere else. BUT these minisplits?have an easy to clean screen and all are outfitted with drains for the condensate.....in times we noticed airflow flagging, we'd pull a screen and wash out with soap/water in the?sink. But then we realized the screens were still allowing the fins to accumulate substantial?dust, so we began using mild detergent soapy water in a squirt bottle and giving the fins a good rinse down about every 4 screen cleanings or so, all the dirty water going down drains.
2. Keeping just the right distance?on these units to throw air is also important. My units work best when about 10-12 feet away from the unit mounted 10' up on the wall.? You could get by with lesser capacity if you had it directed at certain task areas. You will likely NEVER be happy by a cold window on a cold day unless the mini split is throwing air at that window. But the rest of the shop could be 40 degrees in the morning, and the minisplit blowing at your main workbench you would barely know it within 5 minutes of turning it on.? We found that in our shop, the minisplits?in AC mode were the best rust prevention and work protection in the hot summer heat because nobody was dripping sweat in the flow of the air in those areas.
3. Once we could afford to add AC to the entire building at the "proper" capaticty levels, spot cooling became less important but still helpful, as we added 2 5-ton regular air handlers blowing a circuit in the main hall. These units flowed something like 2500 cfm each through 24x24 filter squares, and holy crap what a difference changing to washable filter media over the regular HVAC filters. I think we clogged the first box of OEM filters running every week or so. The washable filters can go a month or more, and same thing, just soapy water squirt down the coils about every 4th filter change.?
4. In my 2nd shop, we have a traditional utility room closet hvac setups feeding each unique zone, and they used to have terrible problems with surges of woodworking activity clogging the hvac filters. So bad the air conditioning would freeze up in the heat of the summers. Switching to washable filter media and keeping a monitoring/maintenance schedule to wash them out regularly has eliminated nearly all problems and saved money over time from disposable filters. On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 2:01?PM Eduard Nemirovsky via <eduard.nemirovsky= [email protected]> wrote:
I have mini split in my hobbyist shop for last 15 years.? Never use any special precautions to prevent damage ?mini split from dust. Just vacuum filter every 4-5 month, always use airs scrubber and dust collector during work. In my last shop, I installed Mr.Cool DIY mini split by myself. It was 5 years ago. Still good. Here in my place, winter temperatures can go down -5-10F. No problem so far
Ed. On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 2:50?PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: If you need A/C this would not work but I installed electric radiant heat panels in my shop. Made provisions for 6 (2¡¯x8¡¯) panels but started with only 4 and they have been sufficient and have served me well for 20 yrs. No professional installation required if you can do electrical work yourself. ? I recently purchased a building that I will convert into my new shop and I'd appreciate anyone's input on HVAC options. It's a cinderblock building that I am going to insulate and sheathe and I need to install an HVAC system. I received a quote to install a minisplit system w/2 zones (2,400 s.f. building); but my contractor said the dust from a woodshop is going to cause problems with such a system. He's recommending a more traditional electric forced air system with ductwork to avoid dust issues. The cost of the ducted system is nearly 3x the cost of the minisplit. If anyone else has gone through this decision process I'd appreciate any insights.
Thanks,
Kerry
--
Kerry Smith
Gotham Woodworks
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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In my prior shop, a 600 sq ft 3 car garage, I put in a mini split. I built a box that took furnace filters. ?I was limited to 220v 20a and I put in the highest BTU unit I could with that circuit, I think it was rated at 2.5 tons. The shop was in the phoenix area. ?The garage doors were south facing and R17 rated. The two side walls were un-insulated with drywall on the inside and stucco over foam on the outside. The space over the garage was lightly insulated. The mini split would take overnight to cool the garage from 95 + to 78 by morning. In the summer by afternoon the shop would get to 85+
My new shop is 2400 sq ft and very well insulated and a single 5 ton heat pump keeps it whatever temp I want. ?This shop has lots of space windows and two R17 overhead doors. ?
The learning, if your space is not well insulated you need a lot more cooling than you would expect.?
Also, when working I have a 5 hp cyclone running and my machines are all 5ph or greater. ?All of that energy into the shop becomes heat and the AC has to remove that too.?
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On Apr 23, 2024, at 11:22?AM, Alex Bowlds <aabj@...> wrote:
? I have no experience or direct knowledge of mini split systems used in wood shop environments. ?However, YouTube wood worker Jay Bates has posted videos on mini split systems he installed in his shop. ?I believe he solved the dust intrusion issues by building and installing an air filter box that surrounded the mini split component that is mounted on the interior wall.
This seems like a reasonable, low tech, and fairly inexpensive modification that may work for your application. Here¡¯s the link to his video. ?
Good luck,
Alex B. On Apr 23, 2024, at 11:04 AM, Kerryj_smith <kerry@...> wrote:
? I recently purchased a building that I will convert into my new shop and I'd appreciate anyone's input on HVAC options. It's a cinderblock building that I am going to insulate and sheathe and I need to install an HVAC system. I received a quote to install a minisplit system w/2 zones (2,400 s.f. building); but my contractor said the dust from a woodshop is going to cause problems with such a system. He's recommending a more traditional electric forced air system with ductwork to avoid dust issues. The cost of the ducted system is nearly 3x the cost of the minisplit. If anyone else has gone through this decision process I'd appreciate any insights.
Thanks,
Kerry
--
Kerry Smith
Gotham Woodworks
www.gothamwoodworks.com
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I have mini split in my hobbyist shop for last 15 years.? Never use any special precautions to prevent damage ?mini split from dust. Just vacuum filter every 4-5 month, always use airs scrubber and dust collector during work. In my last shop, I installed Mr.Cool DIY mini split by myself. It was 5 years ago. Still good. Here in my place, winter temperatures can go down -5-10F. No problem so far
Ed.
On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 2:50?PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: If you need A/C this would not work but I installed electric radiant heat panels in my shop. Made provisions for 6 (2¡¯x8¡¯) panels but started with only 4 and they have been sufficient and have served me well for 20 yrs. No professional installation required if you can do electrical work yourself. ? I recently purchased a building that I will convert into my new shop and I'd appreciate anyone's input on HVAC options. It's a cinderblock building that I am going to insulate and sheathe and I need to install an HVAC system. I received a quote to install a minisplit system w/2 zones (2,400 s.f. building); but my contractor said the dust from a woodshop is going to cause problems with such a system. He's recommending a more traditional electric forced air system with ductwork to avoid dust issues. The cost of the ducted system is nearly 3x the cost of the minisplit. If anyone else has gone through this decision process I'd appreciate any insights.
Thanks,
Kerry
--
Kerry Smith
Gotham Woodworks
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Jay Bates has 3 videos showing the intake filter boxes he added to his minisplits that might give you some ideas. Paul Mosteller
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If you need A/C this would not work but I installed electric radiant heat panels in my shop. Made provisions for 6 (2¡¯x8¡¯) panels but started with only 4 and they have been sufficient and have served me well for 20 yrs. No professional installation required if you can do electrical work yourself.
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On Apr 23, 2024, at 7:04?PM, Kerryj_smith via groups.io <kerry@...> wrote: ? I recently purchased a building that I will convert into my new shop and I'd appreciate anyone's input on HVAC options. It's a cinderblock building that I am going to insulate and sheathe and I need to install an HVAC system. I received a quote to install a minisplit system w/2 zones (2,400 s.f. building); but my contractor said the dust from a woodshop is going to cause problems with such a system. He's recommending a more traditional electric forced air system with ductwork to avoid dust issues. The cost of the ducted system is nearly 3x the cost of the minisplit. If anyone else has gone through this decision process I'd appreciate any insights.
Thanks,
Kerry
--
Kerry Smith
Gotham Woodworks
www.gothamwoodworks.com
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Thanks Alex, I will definitely check out that video.
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Kerry Smith
Gotham Woodworks
www.gothamwoodworks.com
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Thanks Tom. The quote I got for the minisplit is $8.7k for two 24k BTU Mitsubishi units (installed), and the ducted unit is $22k installed. Clearly, I'd rather go for the cheaper option, but don't want to let cost dictate the best solution. I almost fell off my chair when I saw the cost difference.
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Kerry Smith
Gotham Woodworks
www.gothamwoodworks.com
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I have no experience or direct knowledge of mini split systems used in wood shop environments. ?However, YouTube wood worker Jay Bates has posted videos on mini split systems he installed in his shop. ?I believe he solved the dust intrusion issues by building and installing an air filter box that surrounded the mini split component that is mounted on the interior wall.
This seems like a reasonable, low tech, and fairly inexpensive modification that may work for your application. Here¡¯s the link to his video. ?
Good luck,
Alex B.
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On Apr 23, 2024, at 11:04 AM, Kerryj_smith <kerry@...> wrote:
? I recently purchased a building that I will convert into my new shop and I'd appreciate anyone's input on HVAC options. It's a cinderblock building that I am going to insulate and sheathe and I need to install an HVAC system. I received a quote to install a minisplit system w/2 zones (2,400 s.f. building); but my contractor said the dust from a woodshop is going to cause problems with such a system. He's recommending a more traditional electric forced air system with ductwork to avoid dust issues. The cost of the ducted system is nearly 3x the cost of the minisplit. If anyone else has gone through this decision process I'd appreciate any insights.
Thanks,
Kerry
--
Kerry Smith
Gotham Woodworks
www.gothamwoodworks.com
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Hi Kerry,?
I'm exploring the same, and got the same feedback from my HVAC colleague. That being said, I suspect that so long as you are maintaining good dust control practices, are regularly servicing the filters, and perhaps install some manner of pre-filter to the units, I would think you would be ok.?
For what it's worth, the last several quotes from my HVAC contractor for mini-split systems include ~$4k in rebates, and he said my system (small shop) would be less than $4k, so I'd likely be money ahead.?
Apparently the newest mini splits can efficiently produce heat down to ~ -20F, which would be great for me here in Minnesota, and for those?really cold nights (we'll sometimes get down to -30F) I can always supplement with some electric resistance heaters.?
I'll be excited to hear what you ultimately decide on.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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I recently purchased a building that I will convert into my new shop and I'd appreciate anyone's input on HVAC options. It's a cinderblock building that I am going to insulate and sheathe and I need to install an HVAC system. I received a quote to install a minisplit system w/2 zones (2,400 s.f. building); but my contractor said the dust from a woodshop is going to cause problems with such a system. He's recommending a more traditional electric forced air system with ductwork to avoid dust issues. The cost of the ducted system is nearly 3x the cost of the minisplit. If anyone else has gone through this decision process I'd appreciate any insights.
Thanks,
Kerry
--
Kerry Smith
Gotham Woodworks
www.gothamwoodworks.com
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Re: Buying decision: Felder BF6-31 or Minimax CU 300 Classic
Thank you, Mark. I did watch your setup video on Youtube as part of my research and it was thorough and very helpful. I agree on the Felder -- they look more refined, at least the BF6-31 does. Seeing Brian's in person reinforces that notion. My concern was whether or not this also translated to better build overall. I'm glad to hear that the Minimax is a solid machine. I don't doubt that the Felder may still be a notch above.
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Re: Buying decision: Felder BF6-31 or Minimax CU 300 Classic
Aaron, I do use sheet goods regularly, so that's where my concern is. When I had my cabinet saw and I needed to make a plywood cut that had to be perfect, I'd run a shallow cut backwards first, then make the cut. That's a workaround here also, but that means two passes for each cut and that doesn't excite me.
I forgot to mention also that the Minimax is dado-capable, and I dado regularly. On the Felder, I can likely use the router spindle and shaper fence to make those dados, but that might not be an efficient workaround... never tried it.
@Brian, don't recuse yourself from the conversation just because your machine is a contender! :) Your input is valuable here, especially since you've had the hands-on experience with the Felder here.
Zayd
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Jason Holtz
PK
Joe Jensen
imran
Kerryj_smith
Tom Gensmer