Not being a motor and vintage machine restoration expert, I had the help of James Hurley?
I pointed him to the comments (thank you all) from prior discussions and he spent a lot of time reading the input. ?After that, consideration was given to a stronger AC motor/VFD combo in the original config limited by available physical mounting dimensions, C-face motor/VFD, DC Motor and controller in C-face configuration. ?Then communications with Rogers Equipment Sales and time talking to Baldor engineers. ?Consideration was given to how the motor would fit and the weight given that it tilts and nice if not too heavy etc. ?A 2HP was considered, but some pointed out that if too powerful, that can be dangerous when hand holding the wood when the bit gets stuck.
Ended up with what I posted. ?Done deal at this point. ? After all of the advice, I wanted to give the update and when it is installed and working I will see how it turns out. ?If it is quiet and drills holes properly, that will be good.
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David B., your helpful resources links to YouTube is astounding. I’d say you need to publish a book, except that this is all video format. Is there a way to monetise your efforts to a wider audience?
?
Dr David Luckensmeyer
?
In Fusion, If you want to get rid of a component that’s referenced later in the timeline, then use “Remove” instead of “Delete”. ? This action leaves all the reference context in the model but still lets you
get rid of components and bodies. ?That one tip will eliminate most of your frustrations. ?Deleting lower level sketches and construction planes is a different matter that requires a more disciplined (thoughtful) workflow - very often, reordering steps in
the timeline can be helpful in these situations. ?
?
David Best - via mobile phone?
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 6:49 PM, Larry Long Neck <longneckwood@...> wrote:
?I jumped into fusion360 a while ago without spending time to really learn the fundamentals and hit a lot of roadblocks real quick. One of the biggest issues for me was trying
to delete something (like the worktop on a miter saw station) that had a bunch of other things constrained /positioned relative to it. This left me with a? broken timeline history and would throw things into chaos.
Recently I started using Shapr3d and have found it to be a nice middle ground between something like fusion360 and SketchUp. You make constraint based drawings in 2d space and then extrude them into 3d space.? After something has been extruded into 3d space
though, you can directly manipulate those objects like you would in SketchUp.?
--
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
|
In Fusion, If you want to get rid of a component that’s referenced later in the timeline, then use “Remove” instead of “Delete”. ? This action leaves all the reference context in the model but still lets you get rid of components and bodies. ?That one tip will eliminate most of your frustrations. ?Deleting lower level sketches and construction planes is a different matter that requires a more disciplined (thoughtful) workflow - very often, reordering steps in the timeline can be helpful in these situations. ? David Best - via mobile phone?
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 6:49 PM, Larry Long Neck <longneckwood@...> wrote:
?I jumped into fusion360 a while ago without spending time to really learn the fundamentals and hit a lot of roadblocks real quick. One of the biggest issues for me was trying to delete something (like the worktop on a miter saw station) that had a bunch of other things constrained /positioned relative to it. This left me with a? broken timeline history and would throw things into chaos.
Recently I started using Shapr3d and have found it to be a nice middle ground between something like fusion360 and SketchUp. You make constraint based drawings in 2d space and then extrude them into 3d space.? After something has been extruded into 3d space though, you can directly manipulate those objects like you would in SketchUp.?
--
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
|
I jumped into fusion360 a while ago without spending time to really learn the fundamentals and hit a lot of roadblocks real quick. One of the biggest issues for me was trying to delete something (like the worktop on a miter saw station) that had a bunch of other things constrained /positioned relative to it. This left me with a? broken timeline history and would throw things into chaos.
Recently I started using Shapr3d and have found it to be a nice middle ground between something like fusion360 and SketchUp. You make constraint based drawings in 2d space and then extrude them into 3d space.? After something has been extruded into 3d space though, you can directly manipulate those objects like you would in SketchUp.?
--
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
|
Re: AD941 - Offloading from pallet
? I just unloaded my AD941, used PK’s method (narrow pallet jack, ramp, and spotter) worked great. ?
Also , forgot Felder screwed up again! ?They never installed the flip fence for narrow jointing that I ordered as an accessory. ?It’s on the order, just never made it onto the machine These guys!!!
Wade
Wade
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 3:19 PM, dale@... wrote:
?I just unloaded an AD941 at my shop. I rented a forklift with extended forks of 6'. This made it super easy as both forks can go underneath the frame with no need to use the bolts. You don't need to wrestle the unit off the pallet this way.?
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As for training, I've tried everything -- Youtube videos, Udemy classes, etc. I think the video that David Best did of the cabinet with the drawer slides was excellent, so count me in the DB video fan club should he do more (please do more David).
Thanks Kerry. ?I am working on a new Fustion 360 tutorial series now specifically oriented to the woodworker. ?The new series will be all about designing cabinets with drawers/doors using parametric attributes to define all the various characteristics.? I have also subscribed to the Product Design Online??which has a bunch of online courses on using Fusion for woodworking. It's the best I've found of anything geared to woodworkers, and I've tried them all.
I too have looked at all the available training videos for Fusion 360, and feel that the woodworker is not being well served. ?If you like Kevin Kennedy’s teaching style (I do not), then his Product Design Online course is a good one, although a bit more conceptual in nature than what I’m trying to achieve with my YouTube videos about Fusion 360. ?But at least his tutorials are based on the newer UI. ?So many of ?the YouTube tutorials on Fusion 360 are based on the original user interface design. ?The Fusion 360 user interface was upgraded and changed in significant ways a few years ago, and if you’re trying to follow along with some of the older content, it can be very disorienting because your screen doesn’t exactly match that of the instructor.
One of the frustrating aspects of climbing up the learning curve is where to go when you get stuck. ?Nothing stymies the motivation more than to end up in some cul de sac getting unexpected behavior and not knowing why or what to do. ?To help will this I am assembling a list of YouTube resources to turn to when you do get stuck of just need more clarifications. ?It’s a growing list, assembled as I go along in the tutorial development. ?I’ve posted some of this in my YouTube video descriptions, but I’ll attach the current version here for use by others.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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Nice work!
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 3:08 PM, habacomike via groups.io <habacomike@...> wrote:
Sorry, I meant to attach the photo…
<image0.jpeg>Mike King NERA Economic Consulting +1 303 618-4915 On Jun 26, 2023, at 4:07 PM, habacomike via groups.io <habacomike@...> wrote:
? And the drawers and knobs.? Mike King NERA Economic Consulting +1 303 618-4915 On Jun 26, 2023, at 3:20 PM, Kerryj_smith <kerry@...> wrote:
?I use Fusion 360 for furniture design -- it's great for testing dimensions, scale, concepts, etc. And because it's parametric I can set up certain items that are popular so that I can just change the dimensions and have a fresh drawing/design in seconds. I have not yet used the CAM function but it is available for output to 3D printers or CNC machines. For cabinetry, I use Mosaik because it's optimized for CNC and it's just a lot easier. I also use Vectric for other CNC projects. But Fusion has been by far the program that is the most versatile and if you have to show things to clients, you really can't beat it for 3D realistic renderings.
As for training, I've tried everything -- Youtube videos, Udemy classes, etc. I think the video that David Best did of the cabinet with the drawer slides was excellent, so count me in the DB video fan club should he do more (please do more David).
I have also subscribed to the Product Design Online??which has a bunch of online courses on using Fusion for woodworking. It's the best I've found of anything geared to woodworkers, and I've tried them all.
--
Kerry Smith
Gotham Woodworks
www.gothamwoodworks.com
|
David your vector motors are the way to go like most high end machines do that use frequency drives. Designing and building for 50 years
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 6:23 PM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?No, it's not VFD dependent per se.? It's a law of physics.? But the actual usable power at any given kW of input can certainly vary significantly depending on the quality of the VFD and the motor.? ? ? ?
Your Parken has a 2HP motor, same as my suggestion for Joel.
Science and physics tell us the relationship between watts and HP and speed, but science can't say what's a "good" compromise to minimize need for mechanical reduction changes (eg, belt changes, gear shifts, reeves drive, etc).? ?That depends on the particular usage (and quality issues as noted above)? Nonetheless, it is a science fact that no one will be happy trying to drill 3" holes in Aussie ironwood using the same belt settings that you use for your 10,000 rpm #60 drills.
Can a single mechanical reduction setting, plus a VFD, satisfy some woodworker's range of drilling?? Certainly, you've testified to this.? All I'm saying is the probability goes up the larger the motor, and moving from 1HP to 2HP is negligible cost difference, so why not?? ?You could go to 3HP or 5 HP or 10hp, but at some point the bulk and weight and cost tradeoffs don't make sense.? ?But I think there's no downside to 2HP vs 1HP, except maybe $100, though depends a lot on type/brand/quality motor, etc.? There are $200 2HP motors and $2000 2HP motors.? ? ? But in the range Joel is looking at (Marathon motors), the price difference isn't going to be great.? ?And Joel has something like $5k and years into this drill press.? This is sort of his dream list drill press, seems silly to skimp on this upgrade.?
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Hi David:
?
Thanks for chiming in. I’m enjoying learning today. Your reference to “vector rated” motor reminded me that the Parken guys very specifically pointed out that their motors are selected for VFD control. I only
found this out because it was not an Australian made motor, but Asian, and I expressed surprise about the brand being used – given that Parken is historically an Australian company using “all Australian” manufacturing. The response was that it was the best
motor they could find which was fit for purpose.
?
Is there a way of determining this “fit for purpose” nature of motors, or “vector rating”, based on the motor plate?
?
I was hoping you would chime in on the Kappa 400 and “neutral” discussion, as we have the same machines except for electrical consumption. I do know that Felder Australia are super careful about making sure
the neutral wire is not mixed with one of the 3 hot legs. Doing so blows the electronics so I’ve been told. Consequently, I’ve been very careful to make sure the wiring is uniform across my entire shop so that circuits and plugs can be interchanged regardless
of whether the fifth/neutral is used or not.
?
I recall John Ferandin trying to teach me about neutral wires when he was in my shop. But I fear it went over my head!
?
Lucky
?
Lucky,
I’m certainly no expert on this topic, but I will say that there are different types of 3-phase motors that exhibit different power and specifically torque characteristics at frequencies below nominal (50Hz
in your area). ?For instance, I had a 3 HP ordinary motor on my metal lathe driven by a high quality VFD and not getting the desired torque at lower speeds (30Hz specifically). ?I swapped that motor out for a vector-rated unit from Baldor, and wow - what a
difference. Such motors are not cheap but worth it in applications like drill press, etc. ?I ended up doing the same thing on my milling machine, and now rarely have to employ 10:1 reduction back gearing to do operations at 200 RPM.
On the topic of “neutral”, none of my Felder machines, including the Kappa 400 xMotion require a neutral connection. ?I’m not sure why your Kappa does, but it may be a function of the fact that you’re at 400
VAC, whereas we are a 240 VAC.
?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
?
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 3:46 PM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?
On the question of VFDs and motor power, do some VFDs do a better job of regulating the speed while maintaining horsepower? Or is power reduced with RPMs no matter what?
I ask because my drill press (Parken) has a 0.75kW or 1HP 3PH motor and is paired to a 1PH to 3PH VFD which seems to maintain power regardless of the RPMs. Low speed 2” forstner bits pose no problem.
There’s something here I’m not understanding.
Joel,?
As suggested the last time you raised this, I'd suggest you consider a 2HP motor.? The cost increase is negligible ($100?) relative to what you have invested in this drill press already, and it'll provide greater chance of no-belt-change usage than a 1HP.
If you're running 2+ inch forstner bits at generally recommended speeds (~400rpm), you're getting ~20% power of your 1800rpm motor, or less than 1/4HP from a 1HP motor.? That's probably OK for slow drilling softwood, but you're not going to power through hardwood
with this.
?
|
No, it's not VFD dependent per se.? It's a law of physics.? But the actual usable power at any given kW of input can certainly vary significantly depending on the quality of the VFD and the motor.? ? ? ?
Your Parken has a 2HP motor, same as my suggestion for Joel.
Science and physics tell us the relationship between watts and HP and speed, but science can't say what's a "good" compromise to minimize need for mechanical reduction changes (eg, belt changes, gear shifts, reeves drive, etc).? ?That depends on the particular usage (and quality issues as noted above)? Nonetheless, it is a science fact that no one will be happy trying to drill 3" holes in Aussie ironwood using the same belt settings that you use for your 10,000 rpm #60 drills.
Can a single mechanical reduction setting, plus a VFD, satisfy some woodworker's range of drilling?? Certainly, you've testified to this.? All I'm saying is the probability goes up the larger the motor, and moving from 1HP to 2HP is negligible cost difference, so why not?? ?You could go to 3HP or 5 HP or 10hp, but at some point the bulk and weight and cost tradeoffs don't make sense.? ?But I think there's no downside to 2HP vs 1HP, except maybe $100, though depends a lot on type/brand/quality motor, etc.? There are $200 2HP motors and $2000 2HP motors.? ? ? But in the range Joel is looking at (Marathon motors), the price difference isn't going to be great.? ?And Joel has something like $5k and years into this drill press.? This is sort of his dream list drill press, seems silly to skimp on this upgrade.?
|
Lucky,
I’m certainly no expert on this topic, but I will say that there are different types of 3-phase motors that exhibit different power and specifically torque characteristics at frequencies below nominal (50Hz in your area). ?For instance, I had a 3 HP ordinary motor on my metal lathe driven by a high quality VFD and not getting the desired torque at lower speeds (30Hz specifically). ?I swapped that motor out for a vector-rated unit from Baldor, and wow - what a difference. Such motors are not cheap but worth it in applications like drill press, etc. ?I ended up doing the same thing on my milling machine, and now rarely have to employ 10:1 reduction back gearing to do operations at 200 RPM.
On the topic of “neutral”, none of my Felder machines, including the Kappa 400 xMotion require a neutral connection. ?I’m not sure why your Kappa does, but it may be a function of the fact that you’re at 400 VAC, whereas we are a 240 VAC.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 3:46 PM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
On the question of VFDs and motor power, do some VFDs do a better job of regulating the speed while maintaining horsepower? Or is power reduced with RPMs no matter what? ? I ask because my drill press (Parken) has a 0.75kW or 1HP 3PH motor and is paired to a 1PH to 3PH VFD which seems to maintain power regardless of the RPMs. Low speed 2” forstner bits pose no problem. ? There’s something here I’m not understanding. ? ? Joel,?
As suggested the last time you raised this, I'd suggest you consider a 2HP motor.? The cost increase is negligible ($100?) relative to what you have invested in this drill press already, and it'll provide greater chance of no-belt-change usage than a 1HP.
If you're running 2+ inch forstner bits at generally recommended speeds (~400rpm), you're getting ~20% power of your 1800rpm motor, or less than 1/4HP from a 1HP motor.? That's probably OK for slow drilling softwood, but you're not going to power through hardwood with this.
|
Re: 3 phase power plugs/outlets
Mark my knowledge is much more limited than yours and respect your opinions.? All my machines and there is quite a bunch all use a small transformer to supply 1 phase to the machine.? Talking about transformers I just purchased a 5 KVA 208/575 to supply power to my newest shaper it is 5 KW ?575 V ?5.4 amp draw 115 SF pretty new motor. Gomad DFFA -5 with slider. I hope it will work ?in - put is 208 at my shop. Mac,, Designing and building for 50 years
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 5:55 PM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?Lucky,
I assume you are correct that your machines require single phase, in which case they need the neutral (4th current carrying conductor)
Btw, I think people sometimes confuse phasing with voltage, but they are somewhat independent.? Aussie three phase is 400v, and single phase is 230v.? In the US, it's 240v or 208v, and 120v single phase.
Fwiw, Aussie system is more analogous to our 208v.? Note that 120 * sqrt(3) =~ 208, and 230 * sqrt(3) =~ 400.? Not mere coincidence!
|
Re: 3 phase power plugs/outlets
Lucky,?
Based upon my anecdotal conclusions, I think the 5-pin AUS/NZ industrial plug design exists and endures because it was an adopted standard, not necessarily due to a lot of equipment needing the neutral conductor.??
In the USA, I'm sure there's other arguments for splitting 3 phase into single, but electricians seem to tell the story from electricians that the neutral was implemented as a primary way to use one single facility power meter to get both 3 phase and 1 phase service into the building most efficiently.? From my industrial experience, the neutral is also an advantage?in starting large motors (wye-delta starters), but not sure if those advantages have been superseded by VFD tech for controlling starting amps/torque. Your experience for the neutral input to a machine allowing for powering electronics and other single phase systems makes perfect sense, however.
And, correct me if I'm wrong, Mark Thomas, but I believe the neutral leg is always manufactured in the last step at the step-down transformer, while the main power distribution is typically the 3-conductor setup from the power plant. I can have delta power coming in, and a transformer to convert to wye type power with the neutral.
|
Re: 3 phase power plugs/outlets
Lucky,
I assume you are correct that your machines require single phase, in which case they need the neutral (4th current carrying conductor)
Btw, I think people sometimes confuse phasing with voltage, but they are somewhat independent.? Aussie three phase is 400v, and single phase is 230v.? In the US, it's 240v or 208v, and 120v single phase.
Fwiw, Aussie system is more analogous to our 208v.? Note that 120 * sqrt(3) =~ 208, and 230 * sqrt(3) =~ 400.? Not mere coincidence!
|
On the question of VFDs and motor power, do some VFDs do a better job of regulating the speed while maintaining horsepower? Or is power reduced with RPMs no matter what?
?
I ask because my drill press (Parken) has a 0.75kW or 1HP 3PH motor and is paired to a 1PH to 3PH VFD which seems to maintain power regardless of the RPMs. Low speed 2” forstner bits pose no problem.
?
There’s something here I’m not understanding.
?
?
Joel,
As suggested the last time you raised this, I'd suggest you consider a 2HP motor.? The cost increase is negligible ($100?) relative to what you have invested in this drill press already, and it'll provide greater chance of no-belt-change usage than a 1HP.
If you're running 2+ inch forstner bits at generally recommended speeds (~400rpm), you're getting ~20% power of your 1800rpm motor, or less than 1/4HP from a 1HP motor.? That's probably OK for slow drilling softwood, but you're not going to power through hardwood
with this.
|
Re: 3 phase power plugs/outlets
Hi Mark:
?
Thanks for your post. You much more accurately described what I thought was going on (the use of the word “dumb” was, well, dumb)!
?
Some of my machines (like the aforementioned x-motions) need that 1Ph electricity to power up electronics. In my case the 3PH is 400V (for the drive motors), and the 1PH or extra pin is 240V (presumably for
the heads up display, etc.). I always thought there were 3 hot pins and 1 earth, and the “fifth” pin was the neutral that may or may not be needed for a light, or electronics, or an additional motor, or whatever.
?
Consequently, like what others have said, I have standardised 5 pin sockets for all my 3PH machines, and the fifth or neutral pin is wired or not, as required.
?
Have I understood this correctly, at the most basic level of course?
?
?
Believe it or not, 3 phase is the same everywhere on earth, even upside down in Australia.? ?It has three "phase" (current carrying) wires.
Sometimes machines also require single phase power, which is what requires a "neutral" wire.? ?You get single phase between the neutral and one of the 3P legs.
For example, I have a machine that has three 3P 240V motors, and one 120V 50 watt light bulb, and thus requires 5 wire system (3 phase, 1 neutral, 1 grounding).? A better design is probably to just use a 240V light bulb.??
Whether a machine requires 120V is unrelated to whether it is "dumb".? You can power "smart" electronics from a 3 phase supply.? It's a design choice.
|
Joel,
As suggested the last time you raised this, I'd suggest you consider a 2HP motor.? The cost increase is negligible ($100?) relative to what you have invested in this drill press already, and it'll provide greater chance of no-belt-change usage than a 1HP.
If you're running 2+ inch forstner bits at generally recommended speeds (~400rpm), you're getting ~20% power of your 1800rpm motor, or less than 1/4HP from a 1HP motor.? That's probably OK for slow drilling softwood, but you're not going to power through hardwood with this.
|
Re: AD941 - Offloading from pallet
I just unloaded an AD941 at my shop. I rented a forklift with extended forks of 6'. This made it super easy as both forks can go underneath the frame with no need to use the bolts. You don't need to wrestle the unit off the pallet this way.?
|
Re: 3 phase power plugs/outlets
Believe it or not, 3 phase is the same everywhere on earth, even upside down in Australia.? ?It has three "phase" (current carrying) wires.
Sometimes machines also require single phase power, which is what requires a "neutral" wire.? ?You get single phase between the neutral and one of the 3P legs.
For example, I have a machine that has three 3P 240V motors, and one 120V 50 watt light bulb, and thus requires 5 wire system (3 phase, 1 neutral, 1 grounding).? A better design is probably to just use a 240V light bulb.??
Whether a machine requires 120V is unrelated to whether it is "dumb".? You can power "smart" electronics from a 3 phase supply.? It's a design choice.
|
Sorry, I meant to attach the photo…
 Mike King NERA Economic Consulting +1 303 618-4915
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 4:07 PM, habacomike via groups.io <habacomike@...> wrote:
? And the drawers and knobs.? Mike King NERA Economic Consulting +1 303 618-4915 On Jun 26, 2023, at 3:20 PM, Kerryj_smith <kerry@...> wrote:
?I use Fusion 360 for furniture design -- it's great for testing dimensions, scale, concepts, etc. And because it's parametric I can set up certain items that are popular so that I can just change the dimensions and have a fresh drawing/design in seconds. I have not yet used the CAM function but it is available for output to 3D printers or CNC machines. For cabinetry, I use Mosaik because it's optimized for CNC and it's just a lot easier. I also use Vectric for other CNC projects. But Fusion has been by far the program that is the most versatile and if you have to show things to clients, you really can't beat it for 3D realistic renderings.
As for training, I've tried everything -- Youtube videos, Udemy classes, etc. I think the video that David Best did of the cabinet with the drawer slides was excellent, so count me in the DB video fan club should he do more (please do more David).
I have also subscribed to the Product Design Online??which has a bunch of online courses on using Fusion for woodworking. It's the best I've found of anything geared to woodworkers, and I've tried them all.
--
Kerry Smith
Gotham Woodworks
www.gothamwoodworks.com
|
David Luckensmeyer
David P. Best
Larry Long Neck