Re: CNC (or at lest programmable) shaper setup adivce?
David,?
Thanks for the reference - a lot of good conversations from knowledgeable folks.?
Brett, ? You may want to read this thread
If you don't need the tilt the T12 will be much less expensive
Dave
Interesting read,? ?I wonder how the T12 would fair in this conversation? ?? I know the basic version comes with CNC height,? after that it's all extra.?
On Monday, January 4, 2021, David Davies < myfinishingtouch@...> wrote: ?Brett, ? You should get in touch with Tom Morris in Wichita.? He has a T-27. Dave Davies
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:54 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: You¡¯re welcome Brett.
I think you¡¯re wise to make the comparisons and consider the ¡°value¡± of each price bracket and each category of machine. So often Felder is compared to Martin but without references to the price difference. If one does not have the money for a Martin or even a more ¡°full-on¡± machine, then that¡¯s the end of the discussion. But if one does have the money, then value becomes important. Toyota versus AMG (we have both)! Ha!
Let¡¯s keep talking!
Lucky
Lucky,?
Thanks for your valuable contribution to this discussion. I had a feeling I was going to get the kind of answers regarding Martin products you had mentioned. I'm also looking to compare offerings from manufacturers just to understand the value proposition since for me it's not a clear path to choose.?
I'm also starting to wonder once these shaper rigs and tooling and accessories get so awesomely expensive that I shouldn't be making the alternative investment in a full-on 4 to 6 head moulder to accomplish some of the same missing efficiencies while adding more capacity to our production capabilities -? but I'm not trying to take a tangent to the original discussion of improved?shaper options. Lucky,
Yes, the sliding table I referred to is not the side sliding table for the tenonning on Martin shaper.
James
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:34 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Hi Brett:
You mentioned the Profil 45Z (presumably X-motion) under a heading which included: ¡°CNC (or at least programmable)¡"
Regarding the Profil 45Z X-motion, here are some details. I¡¯ve had this machine for approximately 5 years. And channelling David Best¡¯s post from yesterday: Sorry Felder.
1. The Profil shaper will not hold calibration, not for the fence, not for the spindle. Period. I have more than a dozen cutters ¡°set up¡± and ¡°calibrated¡± in the machine, and another dozen cutters that I use manually and have not bothered to enter. I can calibrate one cutter perfectly, only to find that it is no longer calibrated a few weeks later. In such instances, the cutter is always out, by 0.1mm to 0.3mm. Always. (I have an Aigner Distometer for calibration purposes.)
2. At first various users thought this was a programming or user error. I certainly thought this. There is a ¡°calibration page¡± in the programming which ¡°no one¡± knows what to do with. Certainly no one in Australia. I believe John F. and Joe D. took the matter direct to Felder at a trade show in Europe but also did not get to the bottom of it. You¡¯d have to ask them for details.
3. I believe at least one user has done repeated testing (Joe D.) to see if the calibration issue is hardware rather than software. I recall that he found inconsistencies with the hardware (e.g. repeatedly moving the spindle up and down and then measuring for deviations). I think his comments are in the archives.
4. I am a professional woodworker who has only used a shaper for the last 5 years. I admit that I have a lot to learn. But I should also point out in my defence that I use my shaper for complex joinery and not as a glorified router table. So while I don¡¯t have the cred of someone like Ultimate Joe (I bow before you Joe!), I am speaking from first hand experience.
5. At the price I paid, I love the Profil X-motion. The interface is outstanding. But that interface controls what is essentially a manual shaper. If I want to use a previously calibrated cutter, I test the current settings (fence and height), make a test cut, and enter the discrepancy to re-calibrate the cutter. That¡¯s it: a very nice manual shaper.
6. I have recently participated in the installation of a T27 Martin shaper with all the boxes ticked. At more than twice the price of the Profil 45Z X-motion, it had better be good. I was blown away by the machine. To be clear, I don¡¯t know whether it holds calibration any better than the Profil, but ¡ :-)
7. I understand you desire a longer sliding table like the one Joe D. had. I would love that too, precisely for oversized doors. The T27 has a tenoning option which is very large and very robust. I think it is exactly what you want, but it comes at a very significant cost. (I¡¯m not sure what you mean James when you say that Martin do not have a sliding table on their shaper¡? I assume you mean across the front of the machine?)
My personal opinion: if you want a CNC or programmable shaper, I¡¯m confident you will be disappointed with the Profil 45Z X-motion.
Warm regards,
Lucky
All,?
I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?
Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?
With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
--
Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
--
Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
|
I adjusted the bottom screws as I bought the planer second hand and it was set up terribly, once I had the planer sorted the feed rollers needed to be adjusted lower so they actually caught the wood. This was however two years ago and it has been pretty problem free until I encountered the issue I¡¯m having.?
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On 5 Jan 2021, at 20:27, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? David,
I am not 100% but my thought is that one would only adjust the tension from top screws that compress the spring. The bottom ones should be set to factory settings, whatever they are.
If you adjusted the bottom screws, I would definitely check for parallel. Hopefully, someone here would correct me if I am wrong.
Imran
On Jan 5, 2021, at 2:54 PM, david slater via groups.io <davidslater@...> wrote:
? Yes if it sticks it leaves a Mark from the infeed roller turning but not moving the wood ( I can see this happening if I look under the table)? I¡¯m not sure if the infeed has possibly worn and causing this? I haven¡¯t checked if the rollers are perfectly parallel with the bed if I¡¯m honest, I adjusted them with the screws you mention below the table once a couple of years ago but I haven¡¯t touched them since.?
Thanks! David.? On 5 Jan 2021, at 17:46, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? ? David,
Do you get an indentation/groove where the infeed has been slipping? This would just be an indication of slippage.
I am interested in this because i have occasionally experienced where boards get stuck at the end of the feed. I have only observed this with cypress and WRC and cleaning gas been sufficient so far.
All I can think of is to double check that feed rollers are parallel to the bed. Looking at the exploded diagram, the height of the roller is determined by a screw in each end that bears at the bottom of the roller shaft via the bearing (as best as i can tell).
The spring force on top of the roller adjusts the resistance that the wood had to overcome to push the roller up.
I am curious what happens if the bearings are going out? maybe the roller do not move up evenly in each side and cause feed issues. Just spitballing. I cannot look at my machine as every horizontal surface is coved with parts being finished.
Imran
On Jan 5, 2021, at 10:16 AM, david slater via groups.io <davidslater@...> wrote:
|
Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
I'm at the age where wrecking the Aston Martin hurt as much- almost.? Dave
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I bid $1100 ..???
That James Bond interrogation left an emotional scar on me.??
I would buy it back for $1000
?
?
My recommendation. Is settle , and buy back from insurance co if 10000 value you should be able to buy for 1000, fix it not going to Mars .
martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330?cell
Designing and building for 50 years
?
There's a picture for you.
?
On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 12:21 PM David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
Joe, in your place I'd want to interrogate the pallet guy like they did to James Bond in Casino Royale.? Dave
Always Trucking is the shipping broker.? The issue is really the palletization by Machinery Max.? I paid them extra to palletize.?
Traded emails with the one Machinery Max employee who was the only person palletizing machines at the auction location.? I also spoke with him twice about how I needed it palletized.? The reason for all the conversation around palletization, I purchased a
Felder F700Z through machinery max last summer and that machine broke through the pallet because there was no blocking under the machine legs.? The Machinery Max employee assured me that he would ensure there was blocking under the feet.? He also told me that
because it was just him there was no way it would be done wrong.
?
With Always shipping I purchased additional insurance coverage for the full cost of the machine and shipping.? If I were their
insurer there is no way I would cover the damage as it was poorly palletized which was not done by the shipper.
?
From:
[email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Jason Holtz
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 7:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
?
That truly sucks. Who was the shipper?
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
--
Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
David,
I am not 100% but my thought is that one would only adjust the tension from top screws that compress the spring. The bottom ones should be set to factory settings, whatever they are.
If you adjusted the bottom screws, I would definitely check for parallel. Hopefully, someone here would correct me if I am wrong.
Imran
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Show quoted text
On Jan 5, 2021, at 2:54 PM, david slater via groups.io <davidslater@...> wrote: ? Yes if it sticks it leaves a Mark from the infeed roller turning but not moving the wood ( I can see this happening if I look under the table)? I¡¯m not sure if the infeed has possibly worn and causing this? I haven¡¯t checked if the rollers are perfectly parallel with the bed if I¡¯m honest, I adjusted them with the screws you mention below the table once a couple of years ago but I haven¡¯t touched them since.?
Thanks! David.? On 5 Jan 2021, at 17:46, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? ? David,
Do you get an indentation/groove where the infeed has been slipping? This would just be an indication of slippage.
I am interested in this because i have occasionally experienced where boards get stuck at the end of the feed. I have only observed this with cypress and WRC and cleaning gas been sufficient so far.
All I can think of is to double check that feed rollers are parallel to the bed. Looking at the exploded diagram, the height of the roller is determined by a screw in each end that bears at the bottom of the roller shaft via the bearing (as best as i can tell).
The spring force on top of the roller adjusts the resistance that the wood had to overcome to push the roller up.
I am curious what happens if the bearings are going out? maybe the roller do not move up evenly in each side and cause feed issues. Just spitballing. I cannot look at my machine as every horizontal surface is coved with parts being finished.
Imran
On Jan 5, 2021, at 10:16 AM, david slater via groups.io <davidslater@...> wrote:
|
Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
I bid $1100 ..???
That James Bond interrogation left an emotional scar on me.??
I would buy it back for $1000
?
?
My recommendation. Is settle , and buy back from insurance co if 10000 value you should be able to buy for 1000, fix it not going to Mars .
martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330?cell
Designing and building for 50 years
?
There's a picture for you.
?
On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 12:21 PM David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
Joe, in your place I'd want to interrogate the pallet guy like they did to James Bond in Casino Royale.? Dave
Always Trucking is the shipping broker.? The issue is really the palletization by Machinery Max.? I paid them extra to palletize.?
Traded emails with the one Machinery Max employee who was the only person palletizing machines at the auction location.? I also spoke with him twice about how I needed it palletized.? The reason for all the conversation around palletization, I purchased a
Felder F700Z through machinery max last summer and that machine broke through the pallet because there was no blocking under the machine legs.? The Machinery Max employee assured me that he would ensure there was blocking under the feet.? He also told me that
because it was just him there was no way it would be done wrong.
?
With Always shipping I purchased additional insurance coverage for the full cost of the machine and shipping.? If I were their
insurer there is no way I would cover the damage as it was poorly palletized which was not done by the shipper.
?
From:
[email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Jason Holtz
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 7:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
?
That truly sucks. Who was the shipper?
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
--
Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
I would buy it back for $1000
?
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Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Airtight: Clamps by Air Compression
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 1:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
?
My recommendation. Is settle , and buy back from insurance co if 10000 value you should be able to buy for 1000, fix it not going to Mars .
Designing and building for 50 years
?
There's a picture for you.
?
On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 12:21 PM David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
Joe, in your place I'd want to interrogate the pallet guy like they did to James Bond in Casino Royale.? Dave
Always Trucking is the shipping broker.? The issue is really the palletization by Machinery Max.? I paid them extra to palletize.?
Traded emails with the one Machinery Max employee who was the only person palletizing machines at the auction location.? I also spoke with him twice about how I needed it palletized.? The reason for all the conversation around palletization, I purchased a
Felder F700Z through machinery max last summer and that machine broke through the pallet because there was no blocking under the machine legs.? The Machinery Max employee assured me that he would ensure there was blocking under the feet.? He also told me that
because it was just him there was no way it would be done wrong.
?
With Always shipping I purchased additional insurance coverage for the full cost of the machine and shipping.? If I were their
insurer there is no way I would cover the damage as it was poorly palletized which was not done by the shipper.
?
From:
[email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Jason Holtz
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 7:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
?
That truly sucks. Who was the shipper?
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
--
Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
My recommendation. Is settle , and buy back from insurance co if 10000 value you should be able to buy for 1000, fix it not going to Mars . Designing and building for 50 years
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 5, 2021, at 12:23 PM, David Davies <myfinishingtouch@...> wrote:
? There's a picture for you.
Dave On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 12:21 PM David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Joe, in your place I'd want to interrogate the pallet guy like they did to James Bond in Casino Royale.? Dave
Always Trucking is the shipping broker.? The issue is really the palletization by Machinery Max.? I paid them extra to palletize.? Traded emails with the one Machinery
Max employee who was the only person palletizing machines at the auction location.? I also spoke with him twice about how I needed it palletized.? The reason for all the conversation around palletization, I purchased a Felder F700Z through machinery max last
summer and that machine broke through the pallet because there was no blocking under the machine legs.? The Machinery Max employee assured me that he would ensure there was blocking under the feet.? He also told me that because it was just him there was no
way it would be done wrong.
?
With Always shipping I purchased additional insurance coverage for the full cost of the machine and shipping.? If I were their insurer there is no way I would cover the
damage as it was poorly palletized which was not done by the shipper.
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of
Jason Holtz
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 7:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
?
That truly sucks. Who was the shipper?
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Thanks Joe,?
I will see if I can hold of a tin!? I currently just use this:?
Regards, David.?
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On 5 Jan 2021, at 18:07, bacchus6015 via groups.io <joeinno@...> wrote:
? I bought the large Renaissance wax and put it on everything. ?I found it to be much more slippery than the Paste wax I was using. ?Waxilit works well too but having the large renaissance wax really prevents one from being stingy. ?It goes on easily then a quick buff and the tables are ever slippery. ?
I found it to be money well spent!
Joe
On Jan 5, 2021, at 9:45 AM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? David,
Do you get an indentation/groove where the infeed has been slipping? This would just be an indication of slippage.
I am interested in this because i have occasionally experienced where boards get stuck at the end of the feed. I have only observed this with cypress and WRC and cleaning gas been sufficient so far.
All I can think of is to double check that feed rollers are parallel to the bed. Looking at the exploded diagram, the height of the roller is determined by a screw in each end that bears at the bottom of the roller shaft via the bearing (as best as i can tell).
The spring force on top of the roller adjusts the resistance that the wood had to overcome to push the roller up.
I am curious what happens if the bearings are going out? maybe the roller do not move up evenly in each side and cause feed issues. Just spitballing. I cannot look at my machine as every horizontal surface is coved with parts being finished.
Imran
On Jan 5, 2021, at 10:16 AM, david slater via groups.io <davidslater@...> wrote:
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Mike,
When you buy the entire package make sure you find enough money to buy Mac¡¯s Airtight Pneumatic clamps.
His clamps are worth every penny and I can¡¯t imagine working with a slider with out some sort of pneumatic clamping. ?
Joe
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On Jan 5, 2021, at 11:34 AM, Joe Doherty < joeinno@...> wrote:
Mike,
I liquidated my entire woodshop last summer and moved to a place with a woodshop in site. ?There is a powermatic cabinet saw, a grizzly planer and a Powermatic Jointer. ?A good bit of the capability of my old shop could be realized with the machines you are looking at.
I loved digidrive on my exact 51 planer. ?I loved my EGL double miter fence and the Aigner fence plates for the shaper.
If you wait long enough there are always more machines at a better price. ?This is a pretty nice package though. ?
Joe
Thanks Imran. I appreciate your comments. I would be able to load these tools and accessories into a U-Haul and unload at my shop after I build a ramp. ?I have had a Shark Guard on my Sawstop that has performed well. ?I might consider other options.
--
Mike Barrow
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
If I had time, I'd advertise my PK , 399, 166, and thin the herd.? Dave
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At the start of this mess, I licked my chops thinking it would be a blood bath on the machinery front and I could buy 1 or more ¡°forever¡± machines. Similar fallout to 2008 when I was a wee lad in college and in no position to spend more than
$5 on a tool. Also, before pros become aggravated with me, I¡¯m in commercial real estate brokerage, so I had my lumps this year too. Anyway, that did NOT happen. Sure, there were auctions but not a ton and the machine prices were very strong. On the Craigslist
front, stuff was crazy. Supply seemed low and stuff that hit the market sold quickly and for a lot. I sold a powermatic 72 for $3250 which I thought was strong verging on very strong. Completely rebuilt, painted, VSCT fence, 48¡± cast iron extension etc, but
still. About 3 months ago I had a good convo with the folks at IRS auctions. They told me it was feast or famine for shops. On top of that, money was cheap and easy to come by if you had any level of credit. Their opinion was that those with access to low
interest money were tooling up aggressively, and thus driving up the used tool prices.?
Yes, I think many more DIY folks were looking for something to do at home, which explains your experience with single phase equipment. A huge boon to this son selling the above equipment. ?
Patrick
On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 2:42 PM David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Patrick and others, is it your perception than covid has helped the woodworking hobby market?? Metalworking machines seem down but single phase woodworking machines have firmed up.? I'd be selling the Aigner stuff separately, probably the DGL too, and price
the KF in the 8-9K range depending on the spindles, feeder, and what else goes with it.? I agree that J-P can go for less, 5K in the 700 series, 6-7K for the 900 series.? I paid full value for my Bauerle 25" J-P and it was in the 7-8K range.? The build on
the Bauerle is Martin like but it is still a combo machine with the good and bad that goes with it.? Dave
Hey Dave,
I responded initially saying it was over priced. Here¡¯s my opinion on the matter, but I¡¯ll preface by saying I hope the son gets his price and has a smooth transaction.?
Now, for valuation, I watch used sales quite a bit¡ªnot as much as imran, but a bit. Over the years, I¡¯ve seen a dozen CF731 and CF741 of that chartreuse era sell for $7-12,000. Maybe not with every single option and accessory listed here, but
close enough to compare. That is 1/2-1/3rd of this guy¡¯s asking price, but he has separates. I agree, they are more valuable. I purchased a 2005 KF700 for $4k. No scoring, only 79-80¡± stroke. I have the optional guard and I received a router spindle and blades.
This KF700s is worth a lot more with its configuration, but 3x? The JP was already discussed that new it¡¯s around $8k. I thought the 941 was $11kish? I remember 4 recent examples of 741¡¯s selling in the $4-5,000 range. I¡¯m not a professional appraiser, but
I think that KF is worth $8,000, the JP is $5,000, and the tooling is a few grand more. This equipment is a niche and doesn¡¯t track the same way a sawstop or festool track saw would on the used market.? In my observations, SCMI/Felder combo machines depreciate
like a lead balloon. Anyway, those are my opinions and observations. Like David mentions, I would spend the same money on the T72A martin on woodweb/Craigslist and any given freestanding shaper.?
Patrick
For all you guys that think this overpriced, would share why you believe that ?
Can you get similar machines in your area for less?? ?For less from a national used machinery dealer?? ?Does the condition not warrant the price ? Just that it¡¯s old ?
Is new, similar spec¡¯d just a better value ?
Dave
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
At the start of this mess, I licked my chops thinking it would be a blood bath on the machinery front and I could buy 1 or more ¡°forever¡± machines. Similar fallout to 2008 when I was a wee lad in college and in no position to spend more than $5 on a tool. Also, before pros become aggravated with me, I¡¯m in commercial real estate brokerage, so I had my lumps this year too. Anyway, that did NOT happen. Sure, there were auctions but not a ton and the machine prices were very strong. On the Craigslist front, stuff was crazy. Supply seemed low and stuff that hit the market sold quickly and for a lot. I sold a powermatic 72 for $3250 which I thought was strong verging on very strong. Completely rebuilt, painted, VSCT fence, 48¡± cast iron extension etc, but still. About 3 months ago I had a good convo with the folks at IRS auctions. They told me it was feast or famine for shops. On top of that, money was cheap and easy to come by if you had any level of credit. Their opinion was that those with access to low interest money were tooling up aggressively, and thus driving up the used tool prices.?
Yes, I think many more DIY folks were looking for something to do at home, which explains your experience with single phase equipment. A huge boon to this son selling the above equipment. ?
Patrick
On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 2:42 PM David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Patrick and others, is it your perception than covid has helped the woodworking hobby market?? Metalworking machines seem down but single phase woodworking machines have firmed up.? I'd be selling the Aigner stuff separately, probably the DGL too, and price
the KF in the 8-9K range depending on the spindles, feeder, and what else goes with it.? I agree that J-P can go for less, 5K in the 700 series, 6-7K for the 900 series.? I paid full value for my Bauerle 25" J-P and it was in the 7-8K range.? The build on
the Bauerle is Martin like but it is still a combo machine with the good and bad that goes with it.? Dave
Hey Dave,
I responded initially saying it was over priced. Here¡¯s my opinion on the matter, but I¡¯ll preface by saying I hope the son gets his price and has a smooth transaction.?
Now, for valuation, I watch used sales quite a bit¡ªnot as much as imran, but a bit. Over the years, I¡¯ve seen a dozen CF731 and CF741 of that chartreuse era sell for $7-12,000. Maybe not with every single option and accessory listed here, but
close enough to compare. That is 1/2-1/3rd of this guy¡¯s asking price, but he has separates. I agree, they are more valuable. I purchased a 2005 KF700 for $4k. No scoring, only 79-80¡± stroke. I have the optional guard and I received a router spindle and blades.
This KF700s is worth a lot more with its configuration, but 3x? The JP was already discussed that new it¡¯s around $8k. I thought the 941 was $11kish? I remember 4 recent examples of 741¡¯s selling in the $4-5,000 range. I¡¯m not a professional appraiser, but
I think that KF is worth $8,000, the JP is $5,000, and the tooling is a few grand more. This equipment is a niche and doesn¡¯t track the same way a sawstop or festool track saw would on the used market.? In my observations, SCMI/Felder combo machines depreciate
like a lead balloon. Anyway, those are my opinions and observations. Like David mentions, I would spend the same money on the T72A martin on woodweb/Craigslist and any given freestanding shaper.?
Patrick
For all you guys that think this overpriced, would share why you believe that ?
Can you get similar machines in your area for less?? ?For less from a national used machinery dealer?? ?Does the condition not warrant the price ? Just that it¡¯s old ?
Is new, similar spec¡¯d just a better value ?
Dave
|
Yes if it sticks it leaves a Mark from the infeed roller turning but not moving the wood ( I can see this happening if I look under the table)? I¡¯m not sure if the infeed has possibly worn and causing this? I haven¡¯t checked if the rollers are perfectly parallel with the bed if I¡¯m honest, I adjusted them with the screws you mention below the table once a couple of years ago but I haven¡¯t touched them since.?
Thanks!
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Show quoted text
On 5 Jan 2021, at 17:46, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? ? David,
Do you get an indentation/groove where the infeed has been slipping? This would just be an indication of slippage.
I am interested in this because i have occasionally experienced where boards get stuck at the end of the feed. I have only observed this with cypress and WRC and cleaning gas been sufficient so far.
All I can think of is to double check that feed rollers are parallel to the bed. Looking at the exploded diagram, the height of the roller is determined by a screw in each end that bears at the bottom of the roller shaft via the bearing (as best as i can tell).
The spring force on top of the roller adjusts the resistance that the wood had to overcome to push the roller up.
I am curious what happens if the bearings are going out? maybe the roller do not move up evenly in each side and cause feed issues. Just spitballing. I cannot look at my machine as every horizontal surface is coved with parts being finished.
Imran
On Jan 5, 2021, at 10:16 AM, david slater via groups.io <davidslater@...> wrote:
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Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
So - I made the 'big jump' into this class of machine last year with the purchase of a used felder saw/slider that was only a few years old.
Like many things, i just sort of stumbled like a dummy into it rather than any research.? Luckily it was a good saw, a great purchase, and it's really letting me achieve the goals I had for myself as a woodworker.? No, it's not the machines that make the product per se, but a nice slider and shaper... it's an amazing realm of new stuff I can do with ease, and I would happily spend the $ again.
So then it's a matter of 'worth'.? That's a LOT of kit - lots of what look like well-thought out accessories, etc.? I REALLY wish I had the longer slider like is there, and I've spend a few G on shaper tooling already, and don't have a router spindle and a lot of other things in that bundle.? So to bring my new saw 'up' to what this one comes with - i'd be in for another $5-10k, easy.? (those %^&* aigner fences are well over $1k).
Then there is logistics - even if you find a 'deal' on a saw/shaper farther away - see the thread on this group about a gent with a trashed sander because of sh!@t rigging.... I paid a few grand to have my shaper/saw hand-delivered by a couple guys with a lift truck... and it was scary.? the fact that you can SEE the machines and the gear locally and could easily transport it yourself... I'm not sure when that's going to happen for you again.
If I had the space and capital and mental free time I'd give $20k for the whole bundle right now if it was local to me.... you could part our just a few bits of it and recover $5k easily, and the savings on the shipping alone make it a decent deal.? Could you find a similar saw for less, or shaper?? Sure.? Can you find a well-decked out bundle, locally, cheaper, in the next year or 3?? Prolly not.
My $.02.
Brian Heisenberg Woodworking
Mike,
I liquidated my entire woodshop last summer and moved to a place with a woodshop in site.? There is a powermatic cabinet saw, a grizzly planer and a Powermatic Jointer.? A good bit of the capability of my old shop could be realized with the machines you are looking at.
I loved digidrive on my exact 51 planer.? I loved my EGL double miter fence and the Aigner fence plates for the shaper.
If you wait long enough there are always more machines at a better price.? This is a pretty nice package though. ?
Joe
Thanks Imran. I appreciate your comments. I would be able to load these tools and accessories into a U-Haul and unload at my shop after I build a ramp.? I have had a Shark Guard on my Sawstop that has performed well.? I might consider other options.
--
Mike Barrow
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Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Patrick and others, is it your perception than covid has helped the woodworking hobby market?? Metalworking machines seem down but single phase woodworking machines have firmed up.? I'd be selling the Aigner stuff separately, probably the DGL too, and price
the KF in the 8-9K range depending on the spindles, feeder, and what else goes with it.? I agree that J-P can go for less, 5K in the 700 series, 6-7K for the 900 series.? I paid full value for my Bauerle 25" J-P and it was in the 7-8K range.? The build on
the Bauerle is Martin like but it is still a combo machine with the good and bad that goes with it.? Dave
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Hey Dave,
I responded initially saying it was over priced. Here¡¯s my opinion on the matter, but I¡¯ll preface by saying I hope the son gets his price and has a smooth transaction.?
Now, for valuation, I watch used sales quite a bit¡ªnot as much as imran, but a bit. Over the years, I¡¯ve seen a dozen CF731 and CF741 of that chartreuse era sell for $7-12,000. Maybe not with every single option and accessory listed here, but
close enough to compare. That is 1/2-1/3rd of this guy¡¯s asking price, but he has separates. I agree, they are more valuable. I purchased a 2005 KF700 for $4k. No scoring, only 79-80¡± stroke. I have the optional guard and I received a router spindle and blades.
This KF700s is worth a lot more with its configuration, but 3x? The JP was already discussed that new it¡¯s around $8k. I thought the 941 was $11kish? I remember 4 recent examples of 741¡¯s selling in the $4-5,000 range. I¡¯m not a professional appraiser, but
I think that KF is worth $8,000, the JP is $5,000, and the tooling is a few grand more. This equipment is a niche and doesn¡¯t track the same way a sawstop or festool track saw would on the used market.? In my observations, SCMI/Felder combo machines depreciate
like a lead balloon. Anyway, those are my opinions and observations. Like David mentions, I would spend the same money on the T72A martin on woodweb/Craigslist and any given freestanding shaper.?
Patrick
For all you guys that think this overpriced, would share why you believe that ?
Can you get similar machines in your area for less?? ?For less from a national used machinery dealer?? ?Does the condition not warrant the price ? Just that it¡¯s old ?
Is new, similar spec¡¯d just a better value ?
Dave
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Hi Brian, I seem to now be have the same problem with most woods I have tried if I¡¯m honest. I¡¯m usually taking 1.5 -2mm off per pass and it¡¯s mostly Douglas fir.? It¡¯s odd as it seems to have gotten progressively worse over time and nothing has changed.?
It¡¯s funny you mention making a bed cover as I was literally just thinking about doing that earlier to narrow the problem down to the bed. I will do so tomorrow and post results.? Thanks!
David.?
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On 5 Jan 2021, at 15:44, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
? I have found any pitchy/resinous wood tends to catch and grab¡ I can run any hardwood, walnut, cherry, maple, etc. and rarely have an issue. Try sending a couple 2x4¡¯s thru and it¡¯ll start screeching and grabbing almost immediately. How heavy are your passes, less depth of cut tends to feed smoother in my experience, but then in softwoods you run the risk of seeing indentations from the serrated roller.
You might try making a bed cover out of melamine, put a cleat sticking down on both ends so it¡¯s captive on the bed and then run your material on top of that. The melamine is pretty slippery.
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Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Mike,
I liquidated my entire woodshop last summer and moved to a place with a woodshop in site. ?There is a powermatic cabinet saw, a grizzly planer and a Powermatic Jointer. ?A good bit of the capability of my old shop could be realized with the machines you are looking at.
I loved digidrive on my exact 51 planer. ?I loved my EGL double miter fence and the Aigner fence plates for the shaper.
If you wait long enough there are always more machines at a better price. ?This is a pretty nice package though. ?
Joe
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Thanks Imran. I appreciate your comments. I would be able to load these tools and accessories into a U-Haul and unload at my shop after I build a ramp. ?I have had a Shark Guard on my Sawstop that has performed well. ?I might consider other options.
--
Mike Barrow
|
Re: CNC (or at lest programmable) shaper setup adivce?
Brett, ? You may want to read this thread
If you don't need the tilt the T12 will be much less expensive
Dave
Interesting read,? ?I wonder how the T12 would fair in this conversation? ?? I know the basic version comes with CNC height,? after that it's all extra.?
On Monday, January 4, 2021, David Davies < myfinishingtouch@...> wrote: ?Brett, ? You should get in touch with Tom Morris in Wichita.? He has a T-27. Dave Davies
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:54 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: You¡¯re welcome Brett.
I think you¡¯re wise to make the comparisons and consider the ¡°value¡± of each price bracket and each category of machine. So often Felder is compared to Martin but without references to the price difference. If one does not have the money for a Martin or even a more ¡°full-on¡± machine, then that¡¯s the end of the discussion. But if one does have the money, then value becomes important. Toyota versus AMG (we have both)! Ha!
Let¡¯s keep talking!
Lucky
Lucky,?
Thanks for your valuable contribution to this discussion. I had a feeling I was going to get the kind of answers regarding Martin products you had mentioned. I'm also looking to compare offerings from manufacturers just to understand the value proposition since for me it's not a clear path to choose.?
I'm also starting to wonder once these shaper rigs and tooling and accessories get so awesomely expensive that I shouldn't be making the alternative investment in a full-on 4 to 6 head moulder to accomplish some of the same missing efficiencies while adding more capacity to our production capabilities -? but I'm not trying to take a tangent to the original discussion of improved?shaper options. Lucky,
Yes, the sliding table I referred to is not the side sliding table for the tenonning on Martin shaper.
James
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:34 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Hi Brett:
You mentioned the Profil 45Z (presumably X-motion) under a heading which included: ¡°CNC (or at least programmable)¡"
Regarding the Profil 45Z X-motion, here are some details. I¡¯ve had this machine for approximately 5 years. And channelling David Best¡¯s post from yesterday: Sorry Felder.
1. The Profil shaper will not hold calibration, not for the fence, not for the spindle. Period. I have more than a dozen cutters ¡°set up¡± and ¡°calibrated¡± in the machine, and another dozen cutters that I use manually and have not bothered to enter. I can calibrate one cutter perfectly, only to find that it is no longer calibrated a few weeks later. In such instances, the cutter is always out, by 0.1mm to 0.3mm. Always. (I have an Aigner Distometer for calibration purposes.)
2. At first various users thought this was a programming or user error. I certainly thought this. There is a ¡°calibration page¡± in the programming which ¡°no one¡± knows what to do with. Certainly no one in Australia. I believe John F. and Joe D. took the matter direct to Felder at a trade show in Europe but also did not get to the bottom of it. You¡¯d have to ask them for details.
3. I believe at least one user has done repeated testing (Joe D.) to see if the calibration issue is hardware rather than software. I recall that he found inconsistencies with the hardware (e.g. repeatedly moving the spindle up and down and then measuring for deviations). I think his comments are in the archives.
4. I am a professional woodworker who has only used a shaper for the last 5 years. I admit that I have a lot to learn. But I should also point out in my defence that I use my shaper for complex joinery and not as a glorified router table. So while I don¡¯t have the cred of someone like Ultimate Joe (I bow before you Joe!), I am speaking from first hand experience.
5. At the price I paid, I love the Profil X-motion. The interface is outstanding. But that interface controls what is essentially a manual shaper. If I want to use a previously calibrated cutter, I test the current settings (fence and height), make a test cut, and enter the discrepancy to re-calibrate the cutter. That¡¯s it: a very nice manual shaper.
6. I have recently participated in the installation of a T27 Martin shaper with all the boxes ticked. At more than twice the price of the Profil 45Z X-motion, it had better be good. I was blown away by the machine. To be clear, I don¡¯t know whether it holds calibration any better than the Profil, but ¡ :-)
7. I understand you desire a longer sliding table like the one Joe D. had. I would love that too, precisely for oversized doors. The T27 has a tenoning option which is very large and very robust. I think it is exactly what you want, but it comes at a very significant cost. (I¡¯m not sure what you mean James when you say that Martin do not have a sliding table on their shaper¡? I assume you mean across the front of the machine?)
My personal opinion: if you want a CNC or programmable shaper, I¡¯m confident you will be disappointed with the Profil 45Z X-motion.
Warm regards,
Lucky
All,?
I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?
Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?
With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
--
Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Hey Dave,
I responded initially saying it was over priced. Here¡¯s my opinion on the matter, but I¡¯ll preface by saying I hope the son gets his price and has a smooth transaction.?
Now, for valuation, I watch used sales quite a bit¡ªnot as much as imran, but a bit. Over the years, I¡¯ve seen a dozen CF731 and CF741 of that chartreuse era sell for $7-12,000. Maybe not with every single option and accessory listed here, but close enough to compare. That is 1/2-1/3rd of this guy¡¯s asking price, but he has separates. I agree, they are more valuable. I purchased a 2005 KF700 for $4k. No scoring, only 79-80¡± stroke. I have the optional guard and I received a router spindle and blades. This KF700s is worth a lot more with its configuration, but 3x? The JP was already discussed that new it¡¯s around $8k. I thought the 941 was $11kish? I remember 4 recent examples of 741¡¯s selling in the $4-5,000 range. I¡¯m not a professional appraiser, but I think that KF is worth $8,000, the JP is $5,000, and the tooling is a few grand more. This equipment is a niche and doesn¡¯t track the same way a sawstop or festool track saw would on the used market.? In my observations, SCMI/Felder combo machines depreciate like a lead balloon. Anyway, those are my opinions and observations. Like David mentions, I would spend the same money on the T72A martin on woodweb/Craigslist and any given freestanding shaper.?
Patrick
For all you guys that think this overpriced, would share why you believe that ?
Can you get similar machines in your area for less?? ?For less from a national used machinery dealer?? ?Does the condition not warrant the price ? Just that it¡¯s old ?
Is new, similar spec¡¯d just a better value ?
Dave
|
Re: CNC (or at lest programmable) shaper setup adivce?
Interesting read,? ?I wonder how the T12 would fair in this conversation? ?? I know the basic version comes with CNC height,? after that it's all extra.?
On Monday, January 4, 2021, David Davies < myfinishingtouch@...> wrote: ?Brett, ? You should get in touch with Tom Morris in Wichita.? He has a T-27. Dave Davies
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:54 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: You¡¯re welcome Brett.
I think you¡¯re wise to make the comparisons and consider the ¡°value¡± of each price bracket and each category of machine. So often Felder is compared to Martin but without references to the price difference. If one does not have the money for a Martin or even a more ¡°full-on¡± machine, then that¡¯s the end of the discussion. But if one does have the money, then value becomes important. Toyota versus AMG (we have both)! Ha!
Let¡¯s keep talking!
Lucky
Lucky,?
Thanks for your valuable contribution to this discussion. I had a feeling I was going to get the kind of answers regarding Martin products you had mentioned. I'm also looking to compare offerings from manufacturers just to understand the value proposition since for me it's not a clear path to choose.?
I'm also starting to wonder once these shaper rigs and tooling and accessories get so awesomely expensive that I shouldn't be making the alternative investment in a full-on 4 to 6 head moulder to accomplish some of the same missing efficiencies while adding more capacity to our production capabilities -? but I'm not trying to take a tangent to the original discussion of improved?shaper options. Lucky,
Yes, the sliding table I referred to is not the side sliding table for the tenonning on Martin shaper.
James
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:34 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Hi Brett:
You mentioned the Profil 45Z (presumably X-motion) under a heading which included: ¡°CNC (or at least programmable)¡"
Regarding the Profil 45Z X-motion, here are some details. I¡¯ve had this machine for approximately 5 years. And channelling David Best¡¯s post from yesterday: Sorry Felder.
1. The Profil shaper will not hold calibration, not for the fence, not for the spindle. Period. I have more than a dozen cutters ¡°set up¡± and ¡°calibrated¡± in the machine, and another dozen cutters that I use manually and have not bothered to enter. I can calibrate one cutter perfectly, only to find that it is no longer calibrated a few weeks later. In such instances, the cutter is always out, by 0.1mm to 0.3mm. Always. (I have an Aigner Distometer for calibration purposes.)
2. At first various users thought this was a programming or user error. I certainly thought this. There is a ¡°calibration page¡± in the programming which ¡°no one¡± knows what to do with. Certainly no one in Australia. I believe John F. and Joe D. took the matter direct to Felder at a trade show in Europe but also did not get to the bottom of it. You¡¯d have to ask them for details.
3. I believe at least one user has done repeated testing (Joe D.) to see if the calibration issue is hardware rather than software. I recall that he found inconsistencies with the hardware (e.g. repeatedly moving the spindle up and down and then measuring for deviations). I think his comments are in the archives.
4. I am a professional woodworker who has only used a shaper for the last 5 years. I admit that I have a lot to learn. But I should also point out in my defence that I use my shaper for complex joinery and not as a glorified router table. So while I don¡¯t have the cred of someone like Ultimate Joe (I bow before you Joe!), I am speaking from first hand experience.
5. At the price I paid, I love the Profil X-motion. The interface is outstanding. But that interface controls what is essentially a manual shaper. If I want to use a previously calibrated cutter, I test the current settings (fence and height), make a test cut, and enter the discrepancy to re-calibrate the cutter. That¡¯s it: a very nice manual shaper.
6. I have recently participated in the installation of a T27 Martin shaper with all the boxes ticked. At more than twice the price of the Profil 45Z X-motion, it had better be good. I was blown away by the machine. To be clear, I don¡¯t know whether it holds calibration any better than the Profil, but ¡ :-)
7. I understand you desire a longer sliding table like the one Joe D. had. I would love that too, precisely for oversized doors. The T27 has a tenoning option which is very large and very robust. I think it is exactly what you want, but it comes at a very significant cost. (I¡¯m not sure what you mean James when you say that Martin do not have a sliding table on their shaper¡? I assume you mean across the front of the machine?)
My personal opinion: if you want a CNC or programmable shaper, I¡¯m confident you will be disappointed with the Profil 45Z X-motion.
Warm regards,
Lucky
All,?
I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?
Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?
With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
--
Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
No problem. Just wanted to make sure you heard a different take than other responses.
Imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 5, 2021, at 1:06 PM, Mike Barrow via groups.io <lunatuna23@...> wrote: ?Thanks Imran. I appreciate your comments. I would be able to load these tools and accessories into a U-Haul and unload at my shop after I build a ramp. ?I have had a Shark Guard on my Sawstop that has performed well. ?I might consider other options.
--
Mike Barrow
|
imran
Joe Jensen