Re: CNC (or at lest programmable) shaper setup adivce?
Brett, ? You may want to read this thread
If you don't need the tilt the T12 will be much less expensive
Dave
Interesting read,? ?I wonder how the T12 would fair in this conversation? ?? I know the basic version comes with CNC height,? after that it's all extra.?
On Monday, January 4, 2021, David Davies < myfinishingtouch@...> wrote: ?Brett, ? You should get in touch with Tom Morris in Wichita.? He has a T-27. Dave Davies
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:54 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: You¡¯re welcome Brett.
I think you¡¯re wise to make the comparisons and consider the ¡°value¡± of each price bracket and each category of machine. So often Felder is compared to Martin but without references to the price difference. If one does not have the money for a Martin or even a more ¡°full-on¡± machine, then that¡¯s the end of the discussion. But if one does have the money, then value becomes important. Toyota versus AMG (we have both)! Ha!
Let¡¯s keep talking!
Lucky
Lucky,?
Thanks for your valuable contribution to this discussion. I had a feeling I was going to get the kind of answers regarding Martin products you had mentioned. I'm also looking to compare offerings from manufacturers just to understand the value proposition since for me it's not a clear path to choose.?
I'm also starting to wonder once these shaper rigs and tooling and accessories get so awesomely expensive that I shouldn't be making the alternative investment in a full-on 4 to 6 head moulder to accomplish some of the same missing efficiencies while adding more capacity to our production capabilities -? but I'm not trying to take a tangent to the original discussion of improved?shaper options. Lucky,
Yes, the sliding table I referred to is not the side sliding table for the tenonning on Martin shaper.
James
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:34 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Hi Brett:
You mentioned the Profil 45Z (presumably X-motion) under a heading which included: ¡°CNC (or at least programmable)¡"
Regarding the Profil 45Z X-motion, here are some details. I¡¯ve had this machine for approximately 5 years. And channelling David Best¡¯s post from yesterday: Sorry Felder.
1. The Profil shaper will not hold calibration, not for the fence, not for the spindle. Period. I have more than a dozen cutters ¡°set up¡± and ¡°calibrated¡± in the machine, and another dozen cutters that I use manually and have not bothered to enter. I can calibrate one cutter perfectly, only to find that it is no longer calibrated a few weeks later. In such instances, the cutter is always out, by 0.1mm to 0.3mm. Always. (I have an Aigner Distometer for calibration purposes.)
2. At first various users thought this was a programming or user error. I certainly thought this. There is a ¡°calibration page¡± in the programming which ¡°no one¡± knows what to do with. Certainly no one in Australia. I believe John F. and Joe D. took the matter direct to Felder at a trade show in Europe but also did not get to the bottom of it. You¡¯d have to ask them for details.
3. I believe at least one user has done repeated testing (Joe D.) to see if the calibration issue is hardware rather than software. I recall that he found inconsistencies with the hardware (e.g. repeatedly moving the spindle up and down and then measuring for deviations). I think his comments are in the archives.
4. I am a professional woodworker who has only used a shaper for the last 5 years. I admit that I have a lot to learn. But I should also point out in my defence that I use my shaper for complex joinery and not as a glorified router table. So while I don¡¯t have the cred of someone like Ultimate Joe (I bow before you Joe!), I am speaking from first hand experience.
5. At the price I paid, I love the Profil X-motion. The interface is outstanding. But that interface controls what is essentially a manual shaper. If I want to use a previously calibrated cutter, I test the current settings (fence and height), make a test cut, and enter the discrepancy to re-calibrate the cutter. That¡¯s it: a very nice manual shaper.
6. I have recently participated in the installation of a T27 Martin shaper with all the boxes ticked. At more than twice the price of the Profil 45Z X-motion, it had better be good. I was blown away by the machine. To be clear, I don¡¯t know whether it holds calibration any better than the Profil, but ¡ :-)
7. I understand you desire a longer sliding table like the one Joe D. had. I would love that too, precisely for oversized doors. The T27 has a tenoning option which is very large and very robust. I think it is exactly what you want, but it comes at a very significant cost. (I¡¯m not sure what you mean James when you say that Martin do not have a sliding table on their shaper¡? I assume you mean across the front of the machine?)
My personal opinion: if you want a CNC or programmable shaper, I¡¯m confident you will be disappointed with the Profil 45Z X-motion.
Warm regards,
Lucky
All,?
I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?
Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?
With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
--
Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Hey Dave,
I responded initially saying it was over priced. Here¡¯s my opinion on the matter, but I¡¯ll preface by saying I hope the son gets his price and has a smooth transaction.?
Now, for valuation, I watch used sales quite a bit¡ªnot as much as imran, but a bit. Over the years, I¡¯ve seen a dozen CF731 and CF741 of that chartreuse era sell for $7-12,000. Maybe not with every single option and accessory listed here, but close enough to compare. That is 1/2-1/3rd of this guy¡¯s asking price, but he has separates. I agree, they are more valuable. I purchased a 2005 KF700 for $4k. No scoring, only 79-80¡± stroke. I have the optional guard and I received a router spindle and blades. This KF700s is worth a lot more with its configuration, but 3x? The JP was already discussed that new it¡¯s around $8k. I thought the 941 was $11kish? I remember 4 recent examples of 741¡¯s selling in the $4-5,000 range. I¡¯m not a professional appraiser, but I think that KF is worth $8,000, the JP is $5,000, and the tooling is a few grand more. This equipment is a niche and doesn¡¯t track the same way a sawstop or festool track saw would on the used market.? In my observations, SCMI/Felder combo machines depreciate like a lead balloon. Anyway, those are my opinions and observations. Like David mentions, I would spend the same money on the T72A martin on woodweb/Craigslist and any given freestanding shaper.?
Patrick
For all you guys that think this overpriced, would share why you believe that ?
Can you get similar machines in your area for less?? ?For less from a national used machinery dealer?? ?Does the condition not warrant the price ? Just that it¡¯s old ?
Is new, similar spec¡¯d just a better value ?
Dave
|
Re: CNC (or at lest programmable) shaper setup adivce?
Interesting read,? ?I wonder how the T12 would fair in this conversation? ?? I know the basic version comes with CNC height,? after that it's all extra.?
On Monday, January 4, 2021, David Davies < myfinishingtouch@...> wrote: ?Brett, ? You should get in touch with Tom Morris in Wichita.? He has a T-27. Dave Davies
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:54 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: You¡¯re welcome Brett.
I think you¡¯re wise to make the comparisons and consider the ¡°value¡± of each price bracket and each category of machine. So often Felder is compared to Martin but without references to the price difference. If one does not have the money for a Martin or even a more ¡°full-on¡± machine, then that¡¯s the end of the discussion. But if one does have the money, then value becomes important. Toyota versus AMG (we have both)! Ha!
Let¡¯s keep talking!
Lucky
Lucky,?
Thanks for your valuable contribution to this discussion. I had a feeling I was going to get the kind of answers regarding Martin products you had mentioned. I'm also looking to compare offerings from manufacturers just to understand the value proposition since for me it's not a clear path to choose.?
I'm also starting to wonder once these shaper rigs and tooling and accessories get so awesomely expensive that I shouldn't be making the alternative investment in a full-on 4 to 6 head moulder to accomplish some of the same missing efficiencies while adding more capacity to our production capabilities -? but I'm not trying to take a tangent to the original discussion of improved?shaper options. Lucky,
Yes, the sliding table I referred to is not the side sliding table for the tenonning on Martin shaper.
James
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:34 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Hi Brett:
You mentioned the Profil 45Z (presumably X-motion) under a heading which included: ¡°CNC (or at least programmable)¡"
Regarding the Profil 45Z X-motion, here are some details. I¡¯ve had this machine for approximately 5 years. And channelling David Best¡¯s post from yesterday: Sorry Felder.
1. The Profil shaper will not hold calibration, not for the fence, not for the spindle. Period. I have more than a dozen cutters ¡°set up¡± and ¡°calibrated¡± in the machine, and another dozen cutters that I use manually and have not bothered to enter. I can calibrate one cutter perfectly, only to find that it is no longer calibrated a few weeks later. In such instances, the cutter is always out, by 0.1mm to 0.3mm. Always. (I have an Aigner Distometer for calibration purposes.)
2. At first various users thought this was a programming or user error. I certainly thought this. There is a ¡°calibration page¡± in the programming which ¡°no one¡± knows what to do with. Certainly no one in Australia. I believe John F. and Joe D. took the matter direct to Felder at a trade show in Europe but also did not get to the bottom of it. You¡¯d have to ask them for details.
3. I believe at least one user has done repeated testing (Joe D.) to see if the calibration issue is hardware rather than software. I recall that he found inconsistencies with the hardware (e.g. repeatedly moving the spindle up and down and then measuring for deviations). I think his comments are in the archives.
4. I am a professional woodworker who has only used a shaper for the last 5 years. I admit that I have a lot to learn. But I should also point out in my defence that I use my shaper for complex joinery and not as a glorified router table. So while I don¡¯t have the cred of someone like Ultimate Joe (I bow before you Joe!), I am speaking from first hand experience.
5. At the price I paid, I love the Profil X-motion. The interface is outstanding. But that interface controls what is essentially a manual shaper. If I want to use a previously calibrated cutter, I test the current settings (fence and height), make a test cut, and enter the discrepancy to re-calibrate the cutter. That¡¯s it: a very nice manual shaper.
6. I have recently participated in the installation of a T27 Martin shaper with all the boxes ticked. At more than twice the price of the Profil 45Z X-motion, it had better be good. I was blown away by the machine. To be clear, I don¡¯t know whether it holds calibration any better than the Profil, but ¡ :-)
7. I understand you desire a longer sliding table like the one Joe D. had. I would love that too, precisely for oversized doors. The T27 has a tenoning option which is very large and very robust. I think it is exactly what you want, but it comes at a very significant cost. (I¡¯m not sure what you mean James when you say that Martin do not have a sliding table on their shaper¡? I assume you mean across the front of the machine?)
My personal opinion: if you want a CNC or programmable shaper, I¡¯m confident you will be disappointed with the Profil 45Z X-motion.
Warm regards,
Lucky
All,?
I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?
Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?
With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
--
Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
No problem. Just wanted to make sure you heard a different take than other responses.
Imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 5, 2021, at 1:06 PM, Mike Barrow via groups.io <lunatuna23@...> wrote: ?Thanks Imran. I appreciate your comments. I would be able to load these tools and accessories into a U-Haul and unload at my shop after I build a ramp. ?I have had a Shark Guard on my Sawstop that has performed well. ?I might consider other options.
--
Mike Barrow
|
Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
There's a picture for you.
Dave
On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 12:21 PM David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Joe, in your place I'd want to interrogate the pallet guy like they did to James Bond in Casino Royale.? Dave
Always Trucking is the shipping broker.? The issue is really the palletization by Machinery Max.? I paid them extra to palletize.? Traded emails with the one Machinery
Max employee who was the only person palletizing machines at the auction location.? I also spoke with him twice about how I needed it palletized.? The reason for all the conversation around palletization, I purchased a Felder F700Z through machinery max last
summer and that machine broke through the pallet because there was no blocking under the machine legs.? The Machinery Max employee assured me that he would ensure there was blocking under the feet.? He also told me that because it was just him there was no
way it would be done wrong.
?
With Always shipping I purchased additional insurance coverage for the full cost of the machine and shipping.? If I were their insurer there is no way I would cover the
damage as it was poorly palletized which was not done by the shipper.
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of
Jason Holtz
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 7:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
?
That truly sucks. Who was the shipper?
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
?If you have a truck you might consider renting a drop deck trailer. Dave
I'd be interested in the shaper hood with the aigner fence plates if you go for it.
Marlowe McGraw?
Thanks Imran. I appreciate your comments. I would be able to load these tools and accessories into a U-Haul and unload at my shop after I build a ramp.? I have had a Shark Guard on my Sawstop that has performed well.? I might consider other options.
--
Mike Barrow
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
Joe, in your place I'd want to interrogate the pallet guy like they did to James Bond in Casino Royale.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Always Trucking is the shipping broker.? The issue is really the palletization by Machinery Max.? I paid them extra to palletize.? Traded emails with the one Machinery
Max employee who was the only person palletizing machines at the auction location.? I also spoke with him twice about how I needed it palletized.? The reason for all the conversation around palletization, I purchased a Felder F700Z through machinery max last
summer and that machine broke through the pallet because there was no blocking under the machine legs.? The Machinery Max employee assured me that he would ensure there was blocking under the feet.? He also told me that because it was just him there was no
way it would be done wrong.
?
With Always shipping I purchased additional insurance coverage for the full cost of the machine and shipping.? If I were their insurer there is no way I would cover the
damage as it was poorly palletized which was not done by the shipper.
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of
Jason Holtz
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 7:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
?
That truly sucks. Who was the shipper?
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
I'd be interested in the shaper hood with the aigner fence plates if you go for it.
Marlowe McGraw?
Thanks Imran. I appreciate your comments. I would be able to load these tools and accessories into a U-Haul and unload at my shop after I build a ramp.? I have had a Shark Guard on my Sawstop that has performed well.? I might consider other options.
--
Mike Barrow
|
Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
Always Trucking is the shipping broker.? The issue is really the palletization by Machinery Max.? I paid them extra to palletize.? Traded emails with
the one Machinery Max employee who was the only person palletizing machines at the auction location.? I also spoke with him twice about how I needed it palletized.? The reason for all the conversation around palletization, I purchased a Felder F700Z through
machinery max last summer and that machine broke through the pallet because there was no blocking under the machine legs.? The Machinery Max employee assured me that he would ensure there was blocking under the feet.? He also told me that because it was just
him there was no way it would be done wrong.
?
With Always shipping I purchased additional insurance coverage for the full cost of the machine and shipping.? If I were their insurer there is no way
I would cover the damage as it was poorly palletized which was not done by the shipper.
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Jason Holtz
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 7:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Update RE: [FOG] Langzauner Sander Delivery
?
That truly sucks. Who was the shipper?
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
I bought the large Renaissance wax and put it on everything. ?I found it to be much more slippery than the Paste wax I was using. ?Waxilit works well too but having the large renaissance wax really prevents one from being stingy. ?It goes on easily then a quick buff and the tables are ever slippery. ?
I found it to be money well spent!
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 5, 2021, at 9:45 AM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? David,
Do you get an indentation/groove where the infeed has been slipping? This would just be an indication of slippage.
I am interested in this because i have occasionally experienced where boards get stuck at the end of the feed. I have only observed this with cypress and WRC and cleaning gas been sufficient so far.
All I can think of is to double check that feed rollers are parallel to the bed. Looking at the exploded diagram, the height of the roller is determined by a screw in each end that bears at the bottom of the roller shaft via the bearing (as best as i can tell).
The spring force on top of the roller adjusts the resistance that the wood had to overcome to push the roller up.
I am curious what happens if the bearings are going out? maybe the roller do not move up evenly in each side and cause feed issues. Just spitballing. I cannot look at my machine as every horizontal surface is coved with parts being finished.
Imran
On Jan 5, 2021, at 10:16 AM, david slater via groups.io <davidslater@...> wrote:
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Thanks Imran. I appreciate your comments. I would be able to load these tools and accessories into a U-Haul and unload at my shop after I build a ramp. ?I have had a Shark Guard on my Sawstop that has performed well. ?I might consider other options.
--
Mike Barrow
|
? David,
Do you get an indentation/groove where the infeed has been slipping? This would just be an indication of slippage.
I am interested in this because i have occasionally experienced where boards get stuck at the end of the feed. I have only observed this with cypress and WRC and cleaning gas been sufficient so far.
All I can think of is to double check that feed rollers are parallel to the bed. Looking at the exploded diagram, the height of the roller is determined by a screw in each end that bears at the bottom of the roller shaft via the bearing (as best as i can tell).
The spring force on top of the roller adjusts the resistance that the wood had to overcome to push the roller up.
I am curious what happens if the bearings are going out? maybe the roller do not move up evenly in each side and cause feed issues. Just spitballing. I cannot look at my machine as every horizontal surface is coved with parts being finished.
Imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 5, 2021, at 10:16 AM, david slater via groups.io <davidslater@...> wrote:
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Keep in mind that what is overpriced for me might not be for someone else.? I prefer heavier build industrial which tends to be cheaper used even though heavier.? If a machine is close enough that you can see it running, check? out the tables for flat, listen
to the bearings, and haul it home easily, you need to consider that into the price.? I factor 1K for hauling, and? 1K minimum for sight unseen issues.? If you can eliminate that risk, you can justify 2K in overpriced equipment.?
I just bought a Doall metal bandsaw for about 1K too much but it was 30 minutes away and I don't have time for another project.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
For all you guys that think this overpriced, would share why you believe that ?
Can you get similar machines in your area for less??? For less from a national used machinery dealer??? Does the condition not warrant the price ? Just that it¡¯s old ?
Is new, similar spec¡¯d just a better value ?
Dave
|
Re: CNC (or at lest programmable) shaper setup adivce?
To follow up on what I've learned since starting this discussion here and in other places (thank you all for your valuable contributions):
1. The consensus is that The Martin T27 is the machine of choice, with the T12 behind it.
2. Seconded by used Martins including non-automatic but DRO-indicated units for easier/faster setups.
3. Thirded by SCM units of notable models T130 when properly optioned do come up occasionally used at attractive values.
4. Fourthed by consideration for the new Felder Profil 92 which people have bias of based upon experiences both positive and negative with the well-lineaged Profil 45.
5. No clear answers yet on a reasonable modification to the 700-class shaper fence and whether?a DRO or auto-moving fence from another unit might be fitted as a compromise. It still appears any Frankenstein setups just might involve a lot of work and not a lot of capability or repeatability enhancements.
?Brett, ? You should get in touch with Tom Morris in Wichita.? He has a T-27. Dave Davies
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:54 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: You¡¯re welcome Brett.
I think you¡¯re wise to make the comparisons and consider the ¡°value¡± of each price bracket and each category of machine. So often Felder is compared to Martin but without references to the price difference. If one does not have the money for a Martin or even a more ¡°full-on¡± machine, then that¡¯s the end of the discussion. But if one does have the money, then value becomes important. Toyota versus AMG (we have both)! Ha!
Let¡¯s keep talking!
Lucky
Lucky,?
Thanks for your valuable contribution to this discussion. I had a feeling I was going to get the kind of answers regarding Martin products you had mentioned. I'm also looking to compare offerings from manufacturers just to understand the value proposition since for me it's not a clear path to choose.?
I'm also starting to wonder once these shaper rigs and tooling and accessories get so awesomely expensive that I shouldn't be making the alternative investment in a full-on 4 to 6 head moulder to accomplish some of the same missing efficiencies while adding more capacity to our production capabilities -? but I'm not trying to take a tangent to the original discussion of improved?shaper options. Lucky,
Yes, the sliding table I referred to is not the side sliding table for the tenonning on Martin shaper.
James
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:34 PM David Luckensmeyer < dhluckens@...> wrote: Hi Brett:
You mentioned the Profil 45Z (presumably X-motion) under a heading which included: ¡°CNC (or at least programmable)¡"
Regarding the Profil 45Z X-motion, here are some details. I¡¯ve had this machine for approximately 5 years. And channelling David Best¡¯s post from yesterday: Sorry Felder.
1. The Profil shaper will not hold calibration, not for the fence, not for the spindle. Period. I have more than a dozen cutters ¡°set up¡± and ¡°calibrated¡± in the machine, and another dozen cutters that I use manually and have not bothered to enter. I can calibrate one cutter perfectly, only to find that it is no longer calibrated a few weeks later. In such instances, the cutter is always out, by 0.1mm to 0.3mm. Always. (I have an Aigner Distometer for calibration purposes.)
2. At first various users thought this was a programming or user error. I certainly thought this. There is a ¡°calibration page¡± in the programming which ¡°no one¡± knows what to do with. Certainly no one in Australia. I believe John F. and Joe D. took the matter direct to Felder at a trade show in Europe but also did not get to the bottom of it. You¡¯d have to ask them for details.
3. I believe at least one user has done repeated testing (Joe D.) to see if the calibration issue is hardware rather than software. I recall that he found inconsistencies with the hardware (e.g. repeatedly moving the spindle up and down and then measuring for deviations). I think his comments are in the archives.
4. I am a professional woodworker who has only used a shaper for the last 5 years. I admit that I have a lot to learn. But I should also point out in my defence that I use my shaper for complex joinery and not as a glorified router table. So while I don¡¯t have the cred of someone like Ultimate Joe (I bow before you Joe!), I am speaking from first hand experience.
5. At the price I paid, I love the Profil X-motion. The interface is outstanding. But that interface controls what is essentially a manual shaper. If I want to use a previously calibrated cutter, I test the current settings (fence and height), make a test cut, and enter the discrepancy to re-calibrate the cutter. That¡¯s it: a very nice manual shaper.
6. I have recently participated in the installation of a T27 Martin shaper with all the boxes ticked. At more than twice the price of the Profil 45Z X-motion, it had better be good. I was blown away by the machine. To be clear, I don¡¯t know whether it holds calibration any better than the Profil, but ¡ :-)
7. I understand you desire a longer sliding table like the one Joe D. had. I would love that too, precisely for oversized doors. The T27 has a tenoning option which is very large and very robust. I think it is exactly what you want, but it comes at a very significant cost. (I¡¯m not sure what you mean James when you say that Martin do not have a sliding table on their shaper¡? I assume you mean across the front of the machine?)
My personal opinion: if you want a CNC or programmable shaper, I¡¯m confident you will be disappointed with the Profil 45Z X-motion.
Warm regards,
Lucky
All,?
I am considering the cost/value proposition of investing in a shaper setup that has automated programmable?setup capacities (or more?). I am curious what your recommendations may be for shopping brands, models,? and options. I'm becoming less convinced that a used machine will show up on the market as I've been looking for a while and what I've seen has pretty much only been Joe in N.O.'s Profile45, but admittedly I was looking for a larger sliding table to run oversized door setups, and I'm not totally convinced the Felder offerings are the only ones I should be looking at.?
Currently I'm invested in the 700z-class of shaper and not sure I'd want to give them up. I'd even consider putting on an upgraded fence module that can give me the automatic adjustments, but not sure if it is possible or if I can do it feasibly compared to adding another machine.?
With tedious manual setup inefficiencies switching back and forth on small projects I'm assessing the opportunity cost of all those nickels and dimes per se.
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
--
Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Yes I¡¯d buy the distometer.
Bill B¨¦langer?
Sounds fully valued to me.? Not insane, but you gotta really want what¡¯s there for it to make sense price wise.? Could be an interesting transaction if you wanted to arbitrage the tooling.? If I were in your shoes I¡¯d make him a package-deal offer, then sell off what you don¡¯t need.? Bill Belanger can help with the Distometer liquidation.? You didn¡¯t happen to see a copy of the Survival Guide laying around there, did ya - I mean, that¡¯s a quick $2,000 right there. ? LOL
After a quick look the KF700 and AD741 are in working order, appear to be in great condition with no rust or damage, but are in need of a cleaning.? The slider is 9' (not 8') and operates very smoothly. Both have mobility kits installed. The KF700 has remote start for saw and scoring at end of slider.? There are two shaper hoods, transport and mounting unit, 2 ecentric clamps, F38 power feeder, outrigger with extension, crosscut fence with extension, tenoning plate, 4 shaper spindles, what appears to be a DGL 690, 9 or more Felder blades, 3 freud blades, a lot of shaper tooling (really a lot), stainless steel rolling tool cabinet, dust collection fittings, extra 49" fence bar and measure, and many more items.
There might be a extension table for right side of the cast iron top hidden somewhere in the shop.
This is essentially an estate sale.? The surviving son is asking $20K for the machines and accessories with $2000 extra for the tooling and cabinet.?
There is a lot here and as Joe said, much of the tooling I might never use.
I estimated an incomplete list of the accessories and tooling that did not come with the individual units with pricing from Felder's online store and internet searches at about $15K. ?
So, these are 14 year old machines, in good to excellent condition. The KF700 has desirable features with digital-drive, variable speed, a feature I believe is not offered today and accessorized to the hilt.?
Still on the fence, because of the cost and I can't help feel like there may be some missing parts. ? Here are some photos.
<IMG_1141.jpeg><IMG_1137.jpeg><IMG_1131.jpeg><IMG_1140.jpeg><IMG_1150.jpeg><IMG_1151.jpeg><IMG_1146.jpeg><IMG_1142.jpeg><IMG_1148.jpeg><IMG_1152.jpeg><IMG_1135.jpeg><IMG_1138.jpeg><IMG_1136.jpeg><IMG_1127.jpeg><IMG_1133.jpeg><IMG_1130.jpeg><IMG_1122.jpeg><IMG_1124.jpeg><IMG_1123.jpeg>
Mike Barrow
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Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Mike,
Did you see my response?
Imran
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On Jan 5, 2021, at 11:51 AM, David Sabo via groups.io <sabo_dave@...> wrote:
?For all you guys that think this overpriced, would share why you believe that ?
Can you get similar machines in your area for less? For less from a national used machinery dealer? Does the condition not warrant the price ? Just that it¡¯s old ?
Is new, similar spec¡¯d just a better value ?
Dave
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Re: Ten woodworking tools you have to see
David,
Maybe I should not put Multi router in the same bucket with Leigh FMT which has a fundamental design shortcoming.?
I think Multi router will be around, but if woodpeckers do not make continuous improvement, it may not be a viable product for them in the long run even though they are much bigger than the previous owner.
Panto router is made of cast aluminum, not really a toy :)
James
James, I got $50 that says the MultiRouter will still be around and selling in 5 years.? It¡¯s a terrific system for joinery applications.? PantoRouter looks like a toy to me in comparison. ?
Interesting. Woodpeckers start selling Multi-router, looks like Woodpeckers quietly bought the company that makes Multi router, cause Google search does not show that company (they bought JDS Multi router) anymore.
I think Multi router price has to come down, improve the dust collection, and more low cost templates, it cannot compete against Panto router, otherwise, it will become a loser like Leigh FMT at the end.
James
I see woodpeckers has a sale on the multi router from an email today.? ?So i thought I would revive this thread.? I was leaning toward a panto-router and wanted to ask if anyone had used both and what the set up was like.? I see David's comments on the multi-router which, as always, makes a lot of sense.? With the Pantorouter you move the router with the wood being clamped in one position and with the multi-router you move the work piece and tables to and around the router.? Does one of these methods make set up quicker and easier or is it "6 one 1/2 dozen the other"?
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Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Sounds fully valued to me. ?Not insane, but you gotta really want what¡¯s there for it to make sense price wise. ?Could be an interesting transaction if you wanted to arbitrage the tooling. ?If I were in your shoes I¡¯d make him a package-deal offer, then sell off what you don¡¯t need. ?Bill Belanger can help with the Distometer liquidation. ?You didn¡¯t happen to see a copy of the Survival Guide laying around there, did ya - I mean, that¡¯s a quick $2,000 right there. ? LOL
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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After a quick look the KF700 and AD741 are in working order, appear to be in great condition with no rust or damage, but are in need of a cleaning. ?The slider is 9' (not 8') and operates very smoothly. Both have mobility kits installed. The KF700 has remote start for saw and scoring at end of slider. ?There are two shaper hoods, transport and mounting unit, 2 ecentric clamps, F38 power feeder, outrigger with extension, crosscut fence with extension, tenoning plate, 4 shaper spindles, what appears to be a DGL 690, 9 or more Felder blades, 3 freud blades, a lot of shaper tooling (really a lot), stainless steel rolling tool cabinet, dust collection fittings, extra 49" fence bar and measure, and many more items.
There might be a extension table for right side of the cast iron top hidden somewhere in the shop.
This is essentially an estate sale. ?The surviving son is asking $20K for the machines and accessories with $2000 extra for the tooling and cabinet.?
There is a lot here and as Joe said, much of the tooling I might never use.
I estimated an incomplete list of the accessories and tooling that did not come with the individual units with pricing from Felder's online store and internet searches at about $15K. ?
So, these are 14 year old machines, in good to excellent condition. The KF700 has desirable features with digital-drive, variable speed, a feature I believe is not offered today and accessorized to the hilt.?
Still on the fence, because of the cost and I can't help feel like there may be some missing parts. ? Here are some photos.
<IMG_1141.jpeg><IMG_1137.jpeg><IMG_1131.jpeg><IMG_1140.jpeg><IMG_1150.jpeg><IMG_1151.jpeg><IMG_1146.jpeg><IMG_1142.jpeg><IMG_1148.jpeg><IMG_1152.jpeg><IMG_1135.jpeg><IMG_1138.jpeg><IMG_1136.jpeg><IMG_1127.jpeg><IMG_1133.jpeg><IMG_1130.jpeg><IMG_1122.jpeg><IMG_1124.jpeg><IMG_1123.jpeg>
Mike Barrow
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
For all you guys that think this overpriced, would share why you believe that ?
Can you get similar machines in your area for less? For less from a national used machinery dealer? Does the condition not warrant the price ? Just that it¡¯s old ?
Is new, similar spec¡¯d just a better value ?
Dave
|
Re: Ten woodworking tools you have to see
James, I got $50 that says the MultiRouter will still be around and selling in 5 years. ?It¡¯s a terrific system for joinery applications. ?PantoRouter looks like a toy to me in comparison. ?
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Interesting. Woodpeckers start selling Multi-router, looks like Woodpeckers quietly bought the company that makes Multi router, cause Google search does not show that company (they bought JDS Multi router) anymore.
I think Multi router price has to come down, improve the dust collection, and more low cost templates, it cannot compete against Panto router, otherwise, it will become a loser like Leigh FMT at the end.
James
I see woodpeckers has a sale on the multi router from an email today.? ?So i thought I would revive this thread.? I was leaning toward a panto-router and wanted to ask if anyone had used both and what the set up was like.? I see David's comments on the multi-router which, as always, makes a lot of sense.? With the Pantorouter you move the router with the wood being clamped in one position and with the multi-router you move the work piece and tables to and around the router.? Does one of these methods make set up quicker and easier or is it "6 one 1/2 dozen the other"?
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imran
Joe Jensen
Bill Belanger
David P. Best