Re: Omga Miter Saw (230v 3ph), can it be connected to a Festool Vac with auto start?
Got the Omga but was curious what you all think about the runout. ?See pictures.
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When I got rid of my screw compressor I replaced it with a champion 5hp x 80 gallon.? Its in the basement,? its the right machine for me.
On Fri., Jul. 17, 2020, 3:29 p.m. Jason Holtz, < jholtzy@...> wrote: My next door neighbor is a compressor tech. He services Kaiser, Quincy, IR etc. He would tell you the same thing. You'll kill a very expensive screw in a year or two. I worked in a shop with a 10 HP Kaiser, but we had 3 people in the finishing department, and potentially several other DA sanders running. That was borderline enough use for it.
Get a 60-80 gallon upright Quincy. They're pretty quiet, and you'll be happy. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765
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Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
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The Austrian's suck at trying to sell their dust collectorswhen they try to translate to English and going imperial at the same time. Anyways if you have the money take a look the Oneida DC's that have a Rotolock incorporated in the design. I believe they start at 5 HP. No more worries about plugging filters and having a sealed container to collect the dust. You just have to have good ceiling height.?
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-------- Original message -------- From: tom@... Date: 2020-07-18 8:42 p.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] Dust collection planning for new shop layout #dustcollection
John, here's a screen grab from the Felder website, and matches what is in the printed catalog: Nominal air flow 853 cfm. The 1,450 is cubic meters per hour. Just wanting to get the units straight. Now, the 853 cfm is listed at ~8.8" water lift, whereas most duct collectors are marketed at closer to 2" SP, so that's where they are getting into the 1000+ cfm range, and makes the RL 160 look like it has relatively lower performance, whereas at 2" sp it looks like it's more in the 1000+ cfm range.? I'm revisiting the Oneida collectors. I see the Dust Gorilla Pro has a HEPA filter, whereas the "high pressure" unit has 99% collection efficiency at 0.2-2 microns, so definitely not HEPA..... I'm going to see if NordFab will collaborate with me to get an appropriate sized collector to match an efficient ducting layout.? -- Tom Gensmer Heritage Home Renewals, LLC Minneapolis, MN
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It¡¯s worked well over the years. In our machine shop as we outgrew the compressor, we left the old compressor in place and plumbed the new compressor in tandem using all the tank space we could get. This way if we needed temporary extra capacity, or one unit needed servicing, we weren¡¯t completely shut down.
I thought I was going to be able to do this with the California Air Tools compressor, but never got around to it before it went up in smoke.
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On Jul 18, 2020, at 1:20 PM, Anthony Quesada < tonymiga2@...> wrote:
What a fantastic source of knowledge you all are. ? Brian L, I love this idea.
My suggestion would be a 5hp quiet, two stage compressor with a 60-80 gallon tank, and then find a smaller, super quiet compressor and plumb both compressors into the same tank. Then add a refrigerated dryer with automatic drain and a filter unit after the tanks. This way you can run the silent compressor 99% of the time and kick on the big compressor when you want to do any spraying or run out of capacity for some reason.
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Re: Friction Wheel on Hammer A3/41
That looks like the feed was left engaged and it eventually squeezes a divot into the urethane on the wheel. Then as the drive wheel comes around to it, the wheel slips a bit, causing more heat, which either cracks or melts the wheel starting at the divot and spreading until failure.
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On Jul 18, 2020, at 1:00 PM, Victor Jarrett via < vwjarrett@...> wrote:
No picture¡ but as far as I know you can buy a new wheel from Felder or get them recovered. Others will know where to recover, I bought new.
Here's another try at inserting pictures. ?The closeup shows the divot missing from the tire. ?Not sure how that happened. ?I estimate I have under 10 hours on the machine. ?
Regards, ?Vic
<IMG_0812.JPG><IMG_0811.JPG>
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John, here's a screen grab from the Felder website, and matches what is in the printed catalog: Nominal air flow 853 cfm. The 1,450 is cubic meters per hour. Just wanting to get the units straight. Now, the 853 cfm is listed at ~8.8" water lift, whereas most duct collectors are marketed at closer to 2" SP, so that's where they are getting into the 1000+ cfm range, and makes the RL 160 look like it has relatively lower performance, whereas at 2" sp it looks like it's more in the 1000+ cfm range.?
I'm revisiting the Oneida collectors. I see the Dust Gorilla Pro has a HEPA filter, whereas the "high pressure" unit has 99% collection efficiency at 0.2-2 microns, so definitely not HEPA..... I'm going to see if NordFab will collaborate with me to get an appropriate sized collector to match an efficient ducting layout.?
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Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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I¡¯ve had 2 Oneida smart collectors and they work well. What I hated was trying to empty the 35 gallon drums. I tried that plastic insert that¡¯s supposed to make it easier to pull out the bag, didn't work. No matter what I tried I ended up with dust everywhere when changing bags. In my new shop I bought the powermatic cyclone. It¡¯s only 3hp but it does a really good job for my AD941 and F700Z as well as the powermatic drum sander. Cleaning it is a breeze. The reason is that they put two small hoses from the suction side into the bottom of the barrel that hold the bag in place. I had a commercial vacuum system when I had a CNC machine for grinding eyeglass lenses and it used that type of a system. I¡¯m very happy with my PM2200.
Bill Belanger?
Tom here's what on the website. The biggest problem is getting the CFM out of Felders crappy dust collection at saw source but that's?another over discussed problem. One other word of warning, get the autoclean option or you could run into all the bullshit I went through with this glorified vacuum?cleaner.
FELDER? Quality and precision from AUSTRIA RL 160,?Clean air suction unit, H3 ? | Business and industrial woodwrokers can benefit from certified FELDER-Clean-Air Dust Extractors in various price and performance categories. Mobile and space-saving, the RL 125, RL 140, RL 160 and RL 200 models offer flexibility and highest performance within the smallest of spaces. All models filter the air so that the dust remaining in the air is under 0.1 mg/m?. This means that all three extractors comply with ¡°Category H3¡±. Unlike conventional dust extractor units, Felder positions the fan on the clean-air side. This means that there is negative pressure throughout the entire extraction system and no dust can escape. |
| ¡ñ? | Certified | |
| ¡ñ? | Max. Airflow 1883 CFM (3200 m?/h) | | ¡ñ? | Nominal air flow rate 20 m/sec. 1450 CFM | | ¡ñ | Vacuum 2200 Pa |
| ¡ñ? | Mobile | |
| ¡ñ? | Inlet size ? 160 mm (6?¡±) | | ¡ñ? | Bag volume 106 gal. | | ¡ñ | Motor power 4.0 HP (3.0 kW)?
I can confirm the 1450 cfm being close, we tested after about 10' of straight pipe and got 1400 cfm. |
On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 7:46 PM < tom@...> wrote: Thank you for all of the responses guys, this is very helpful.?
John, I am getting 850 cfm from the Felder catalog, but it's important to note that it's at 8.8" of static water lift. Looking at the flow graphs on the Oneida website, it's somewhat comparable to their mid-range cyclones. I suspect that at lower static pressures it will easily exceed 1000 cfm, as your testing shows.?
David, thank you for the pics, great food for thought.?
Jason, thanks for the input on the circuits. To some extent I'm a little limited by what I can run from the house (Shop is on a sub-panel), but yes I think I should reasonably be able to get another 240V circuit or two going for the machines. Yeah, I'm not necessarily sold on the RL units, it just seemed like a good starting place. Actually, I started with the RL 140 due to small footprint, then grew to the 160. Anyways, I'll include the Oneida 5hp Dust Gorilla Pro and High Pressure setups in my consideration as well. I have the Dust Gorilla Mini and the Dust Cobra in my shop and have been very pleased with both.?
I'll look at moving the J/P. The bright side is, when I ordered it Felder included the mobility kit for free, and it only takes a moment or two to move it out into the work aisle.?
I'm sure that my work flows will change over time, so I'm doing what I can to try to make the Shop as modular as possible so it can change and adapt as my business grows/changes. I know it's expensive, but I'm inclined to go with the NordFab quick fit system because it seems like it would be quick/easy to reconfigure if needed. I may add another outlet on the dedicated dust collector circuit in the corner behind the service door, in the event I may someday decide that's a better place. Nothing set in stone yet.?
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Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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Tom here's what on the website. The biggest problem is getting the CFM out of Felders crappy dust collection at saw source but that's?another over discussed problem. One other word of warning, get the autoclean option or you could run into all the bullshit I went through with this glorified vacuum?cleaner.
FELDER? Quality and precision from AUSTRIA RL 160,?Clean air suction unit, H3 ? | Business and industrial woodwrokers can benefit from certified FELDER-Clean-Air Dust Extractors in various price and performance categories. Mobile and space-saving, the RL 125, RL 140, RL 160 and RL 200 models offer flexibility and highest performance within the smallest of spaces. All models filter the air so that the dust remaining in the air is under 0.1 mg/m?. This means that all three extractors comply with ¡°Category H3¡±. Unlike conventional dust extractor units, Felder positions the fan on the clean-air side. This means that there is negative pressure throughout the entire extraction system and no dust can escape. |
| ¡ñ? | Certified | |
| ¡ñ? | Max. Airflow 1883 CFM (3200 m?/h) | | ¡ñ? | Nominal air flow rate 20 m/sec. 1450 CFM | | ¡ñ | Vacuum 2200 Pa |
| ¡ñ? | Mobile | |
| ¡ñ? | Inlet size ? 160 mm (6?¡±) | | ¡ñ? | Bag volume 106 gal. | | ¡ñ | Motor power 4.0 HP (3.0 kW)?
I can confirm the 1450 cfm being close, we tested after about 10' of straight pipe and got 1400 cfm. |
On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 7:46 PM < tom@...> wrote: Thank you for all of the responses guys, this is very helpful.?
John, I am getting 850 cfm from the Felder catalog, but it's important to note that it's at 8.8" of static water lift. Looking at the flow graphs on the Oneida website, it's somewhat comparable to their mid-range cyclones. I suspect that at lower static pressures it will easily exceed 1000 cfm, as your testing shows.?
David, thank you for the pics, great food for thought.?
Jason, thanks for the input on the circuits. To some extent I'm a little limited by what I can run from the house (Shop is on a sub-panel), but yes I think I should reasonably be able to get another 240V circuit or two going for the machines. Yeah, I'm not necessarily sold on the RL units, it just seemed like a good starting place. Actually, I started with the RL 140 due to small footprint, then grew to the 160. Anyways, I'll include the Oneida 5hp Dust Gorilla Pro and High Pressure setups in my consideration as well. I have the Dust Gorilla Mini and the Dust Cobra in my shop and have been very pleased with both.?
I'll look at moving the J/P. The bright side is, when I ordered it Felder included the mobility kit for free, and it only takes a moment or two to move it out into the work aisle.?
I'm sure that my work flows will change over time, so I'm doing what I can to try to make the Shop as modular as possible so it can change and adapt as my business grows/changes. I know it's expensive, but I'm inclined to go with the NordFab quick fit system because it seems like it would be quick/easy to reconfigure if needed. I may add another outlet on the dedicated dust collector circuit in the corner behind the service door, in the event I may someday decide that's a better place. Nothing set in stone yet.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Thank you for all of the responses guys, this is very helpful.?
John, I am getting 850 cfm from the Felder catalog, but it's important to note that it's at 8.8" of static water lift. Looking at the flow graphs on the Oneida website, it's somewhat comparable to their mid-range cyclones. I suspect that at lower static pressures it will easily exceed 1000 cfm, as your testing shows.?
David, thank you for the pics, great food for thought.?
Jason, thanks for the input on the circuits. To some extent I'm a little limited by what I can run from the house (Shop is on a sub-panel), but yes I think I should reasonably be able to get another 240V circuit or two going for the machines. Yeah, I'm not necessarily sold on the RL units, it just seemed like a good starting place. Actually, I started with the RL 140 due to small footprint, then grew to the 160. Anyways, I'll include the Oneida 5hp Dust Gorilla Pro and High Pressure setups in my consideration as well. I have the Dust Gorilla Mini and the Dust Cobra in my shop and have been very pleased with both.?
I'll look at moving the J/P. The bright side is, when I ordered it Felder included the mobility kit for free, and it only takes a moment or two to move it out into the work aisle.?
I'm sure that my work flows will change over time, so I'm doing what I can to try to make the Shop as modular as possible so it can change and adapt as my business grows/changes. I know it's expensive, but I'm inclined to go with the NordFab quick fit system because it seems like it would be quick/easy to reconfigure if needed. I may add another outlet on the dedicated dust collector circuit in the corner behind the service door, in the event I may someday decide that's a better place. Nothing set in stone yet.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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Re: A little Sticky Humor
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On Jul 18, 2020, at 1:47 PM, scott.charmack < scharmac@...> wrote:
While searching for information about hide glue I ran across the following comparison about three types of glue that I thought might be a change of pace for this group. ?this came from Tools for Woodworking, Joels blog:
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03/01/2011
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 Glue is the most common fastener used in woodworking and it seems that selecting the right glue for the job is typically done by using whatever bottle of glue you have hanging around and without really figuring out which glue is best.?
Certain characteristics of glue such as open time are pretty well documented so what we were interested in testing is how the glue holds after it dries. It's a simple question - once the glue dries will the glued joint be strong enough to hold its position or must some other mechanical method of fastener also be used?
We looked at three kinds of commonly used glues: Two part epoxy, Yellow wood glue (in this case Elmers wood glue), and liquid hide glue (??- (we also love hot hide glue but we wanted for comparison an out of the bottle solution).
To test this characteristic of glue we needed a type of joint where joint members, even when pinned down, shift position all the time.?
Members of Congress seemed perfect for the test.
We took three politicians of various affiliations - our technicians did not think political party mattered because politicians shift positions all the time. Using each glue in turn we glued down each politician to their chair in the?.
We left the politicians alone for the duration of the test. At the end of the test (one session) we examined our results.?
Epoxy?- The representative was still seated and had not shifted his position.
Elmer's Wood Glue?- The representative was disqualified when it was discovered that he had no positions on anything and voted on strict donor lines.?
Old Brown Liquid Hide Glue?- The representative was solidly attached but under the heat of public scrutiny the glue softened and the representative was able to shift position. Fortunately one characteristic of hide glue is that it's reversible and a lobbyist was able to bring the representative back to his original position with little effort.?
Conclusion. Epoxy is the way to go if you have the votes going in. Otherwise use hide glue.?
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Join the conversation
Scott
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Do you mean you would buy a Quincy?
Tom
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Don't know where you guys get a flow of 850 cfm with the RL160. My testing on multiple occasions showed 1000 minimum with a high of 1350 using 6" PVC duct with testing done between 35' and 60' of run. This was done with a recently calibrated professional grade 4" fan anemometer not cheap junk off of Amazon.?
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-------- Original message -------- From: Sang Luu <sangluu@...> Date: 2020-07-18 4:10 p.m. (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [FOG] Dust collection planning for new shop layout #dustcollection
One 90 degree long radius at either 6" or the 8" would not do much damage in terms of air flow impedance. Doing two long straight runs would introduce more joints, right?
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Your shop layout is similar to mine. ? You might consider a T-layout for the main trunk instead of an L - that way it you ever put in a shaper over near the Mortiser, you¡¯ll have ducting on that side of the shop. ? ?Here¡¯s my layout (concentrate on the layout near the end): ??
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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On Jul 18, 2020, at 12:19 PM, tom@... wrote:
Good day to you!?
I'm in the process of planning out my Shop, and was hoping to get some input on appropriate dust collector placement, ducting layout, and generally checking out my tool layout with the Group.?
I'm a 1-person remodeling firm, slowly easing my way into more Shop-based work (custom doors, storm windows, small furniture pieces, built-ins, short runs of custom millwork, etc..) as I'm getting older. My Shop is a detached garage with a 100-amp panel, single phase power. I want to insulate before this coming Winter, but before I need to insulate I need to finalize my electrical layout, which means I need to sort out my general machine placement and dust collection. The plan is to put the dust collector on it's own dedicated 240V 30-amp breaker, the rest of the machinery on a shared 30-amp 240V breaker (I'll never be running more than one machine at a time).?
For now I'm planning on purchasing a Felder RL160 or RL 140, but this is not set in stone. The RL 160 delivers ~850CFM at ~9" static pressure.?
I'm curious what the Group thinks of my initial layout for dust collection and tool arrangement? All of the machines are on mobile bases or can be moved with a pallet jack, so they can each be shifted around depending on the project, but the intent is to be able to use each machine in its primary location most of the time, moving them as necessary for unique needs.?
My initial thought was to minimize the number of elbows in the ducting, so the green line represents a run of 6" duct with a single 90 in it, serving the West and North wall machinery, coming straight off the dust collector. The Orange line represents a separate line that I'd run up to the ceiling, then over to the center of the Shop for processing 16' material (my shop is 40' long on the diagonal).
I am planning on using Nordfab ductwork and fittings, and will seek their input as well, but I was wondering if the Group had some opinions? Thank you for any input you might have.?
Best,
Tom<Screen Shot 2020-07-18 at 1.44.57 PM.png>
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Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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Hey Tom, Looks like you've been busy planning! Exciting times.? The first thing I noticed in what you wrote that all the other machines will share a circuit. I personally would advise against that. Even if I'm in the shop by myself, I often go back and forth between two machines, say the bandsaw and the jointer or the bandsaw and the edge sander with them both running. It's a nice option to have, and you're not saving that much money by eliminating a couple circuits. 100 amp panel should have plenty of room.
There's quite a few people here who have the RL collectors. I've heard enough complaints about uneven filling, poor seals, etc. over the years that I'd steer clear of them. Having had multiple Oneida units over the years, I have no reservation recommending them. We had the Clear Vue Max also and hated it. First of all, it's a shitty kit held together with bolts and silicone. It took all day to assemble it. I don't feel like I saved enough money for that. Second, the pleats in the filter are so fine, they plug up with fines so fast and your suction drops off dramatically. Found it very difficult to get it cleaned out well. I wish somebody would come out with a reverse pulse air cleaning system for one of these cyclone systems.
One other thing I would try to do. Find a location for your jointer/planer that does not require moving it every time you need to use it. I might consider putting it where you're showing the MFT/work table area, and putting those against the wall. They are still mobile, and easier than moving the J/P. Another option would be putting the J/P where the drill press and mortiser are. A little more ductwork that way, but in my experience extra pipe doesn't have a huge effect if you're only using a gate or two at a time.
That's my two cents Jason
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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If I were looking for an air compressor under 20 hp I would buy anything but Quincy piston type. I have owned several different brands of compressors Including 50 hp screws. Quincy are quite, long lasting and least expensive to rebuild of any I know about. Eventually they all need service, price a rebuild kit before you buy.
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What a fantastic source of knowledge you all are. ?
Brian L, I love this idea.
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My suggestion would be a 5hp quiet, two stage compressor with a 60-80 gallon tank, and then find a smaller, super quiet compressor and plumb both compressors into the same tank. Then add a refrigerated dryer with automatic drain and a filter unit after the tanks. This way you can run the silent compressor 99% of the time and kick on the big compressor when you want to do any spraying or run out of capacity for some reason.
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Thank you for the feedback,
The KF700S isn't ordered quite yet, hopefully in the next few weeks. I was planning on the 9'/2800mm, but using the Shop Planner software on the Grizzly website it turns out that the 3200 table just squeezes into the Shop.
I'll revisit the Oneida high vac setup. It occurred to me that, in lieu of the 90 in the NW corner, I could run a line along the ceiling to serve the center drop, and serve the KF-700, but my concern there is that while I might save a few lineal feet, I'd be introducing more angles to get up to the ceiling, across the Shop, and back down again. I'm terribly curious to hear what the folks at NordFab have to say regarding how much airflow they think I'll get at the end of the run (KF700), and if they think the RL units will serve my needs or if I need to revisit the Oneida units.?
Ultimately, at this point I'm just trying to identify where I should locate the central dust collector so I can run the electrical, at the moment I'm using a Oneida Mini-Gorilla and just shifting from machine to machine with a 10' 5" flex hose.?
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Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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One 90 degree long radius at either 6" or the 8" would not do much damage in terms of air flow impedance. Doing two long straight runs would introduce more joints, right?
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Re: The Annex workshop addition
Joe,?
Your shop and home is fantastic, and that 3D scan technology is amazing. ?Such a great idea by your realtor. ?I think it really shines for this use. ?Good luck on your sale and I am sure you will have a wonderful time in your next adventures. ?
Anthony?
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Nice layout, obviously a lot of thought put in. Similar to Anthony's thread about his addition, the comment about workpiece / stock placement & movement is important to repeat although I think you have fewer machines and obstacles. That 10' slider and outrigger/xcut fence sure takes up a lot of space, doesn't it? :)
I had considered the RL series as well but ultimately saw that the CFM was a bit light for my needs and I think I had less ducting to run than your plan. I would think about other options unless you know for sure that 850CFM is adequate for the shaper and planer/jointer at their drops. I have the Oneida high vac system and it's fantastic and likely overkill for my use but I don't regret having more headroom.?
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Tom Gensmer
Bill Belanger
David P. Best
Jason Holtz
Sang Luu