Re: Building a closet for dust collector
Brian, the point is doing the work creates heat too.? Take a milling machine.? The motor has inefficiency, heat. The motor moves things in the mill, some friction some more heat.? Then the cutter removes metal, more heat. The coolant cools
the metal warming the coolant. 100% of the energy in ends up as either potential energy like raising a hoist, or heat. With lighting the energy either turns into light which shines on objects and heats them or it is wasted in the LED driver etc.
?
You all are missing the point that a lot of the hp/watts is actually consumed doing the “work”, whether it’s sawing the wood, jointing, planing, sanding, lighting or even compressing air. It takes force to do most of these things (not lighting
of course), and the force of the blade cutting through the wood is a large percentage of the watts consumed. Yes, there is always a heat load, but it’s not anywhere close to 100% of consumed power…. even here in AZ where it will be 111? later this week.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Brian Lamb
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 7:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Building a closet for dust collector
?
You all are missing the point that a lot of the hp/watts is actually consumed doing the “work”, whether it’s sawing the wood, jointing, planing, sanding, lighting or even compressing air. It takes force to do most of these things (not lighting
of course), and the force of the blade cutting through the wood is a large percentage of the watts consumed. Yes, there is always a heat load, but it’s not anywhere close to 100% of consumed power…. even here in AZ where it will be 111? later this week.
?
?
I think perhaps the issue then is the usual workload of a typical shop. Although in an it system things are, I imagine, a bit more stable in terms of draw and power use,
that is not the case for most shops not in a factory environment. We tend to turn on and off equipment and not be steadily throwing plank after plank in rapid succession thorough a saw at max force leading to an actual nameplate type draw. Whereas computer
fans are typically more blunt force objects running at max 100% of the time to account for a potentially catastrophic consequence of failing to control heat in a limited space and the consequences of those failures. And so, I may allow for a total heat release
into your shop for the sake of argument, but even then, the draw is variable and subsequently the heat release. If the OP is concerned about utilizing a motor and dealing with the heat for 100% utilization, he is probably 1) not using the right equipment as
Felder doesn’t spec the duty as 100%, and 2) in the wrong forum and needs to be talking to factory owners.
But in more real world situations, we don’t use 100% draw even when we are using machines most of the time, turn them off between runs, have leaks under a doors, windows
to radiate out, poor insulation to not contain heat or cold, and a myriad of other issues. Sure, running motors will increase heat but it’s not a 1:1 in any of our shops, and especially not at nameplate levels.
I think you just said mostly what I did – that the energy turns into heat, just not entirely in the motor itself.?
?
8KW of electricity into a room turns into 27,000 of BTU in that room, either directly or indirectly, unless that motor is driving a shaft through a wall where some of that energy is converted into heat somewhere else. That 8KW of heat may
not stay in the room due to diffusion through the room walls and ceiling, but it’s put into the room, no if’s, and’s, or but’s, just as if you had an 8KW electric resistance heater.
?
Energy is not returned to the environment on the return leg – the neutral wire in a single phase 120v world, or the other hot legs in a 240v or 3-phase world. If the energy is not needed for work output or system inefficiency losses it
is not drawn in the first place; e.g. a 5HP/3KW motor has a free-running power consumption value of maybe 1KW, and that power consumption increases when the motor is asked to do work. Only when the motor is fully loaded does it draw 3KW of power. Yes there
is voltage drop on the electrical service wiring and yes there is heat generated from that lost energy, but that’s a different problem in a different room. Power distribution is sized to deliver nominal voltage at the end point, factoring in losses in distribution.
?
RE designing HVAC based on electrical load – yes, this is exactly how it’s done. My day job is in IT, part of which includes managing a datacenter and it’s power and cooling. Cooling load is absolutely sized based on power draw of computing
equipment as well as the expected environmental factors. ??
?
Small spaces like workshops – small closed systems – will show the temperature rise of power consumption more quickly than a larger system which has a lot more thermal sinking capability.
?
I agree it’s complicated, and I’m glad nothing is simple on the Felder forum, which I’m new to. There are few things in life that can truly be expressed simply.? Learning stuff – the reason I joined the group – happens when the complexity
is welcomed.??
?
No. While you may be correct that the differences between potential energy and kinetic reach equilibrium through heat transfer, it’s not so clear cut as the statement that an 8kw input to a motor yields 8kw of heat within a workshop. Within
systems there are many components, heat sinks, and losses. So for example, the spinning motor creates heat in bearings through friction, the blade creates heat through friction in the wood and drag through air, some energy is passed through entirely in the
electrical supply and leaves the system and recovers its potential in a ground, some energy is absorbed through wood fibers/saw dust and heat sinked. Heat is lost through inefficient insulation, air drafts, radiation through windows etc. Some energy is released
slowly and muddies the results like the specific heat of cast iron and sawdust. All causes, yes, 8kw input leads to 8kw of heat. But the closed system needs to be very large which simply is out of line with a real world workshop. I don’t know much about sizing
hvac but I don’t think this is the way to do it.
Nothing is simple on a Felder forum :) And I’m waiting for my finish to dry.
All forms of energy ultimately end in heat, so yes, 8KW of energy coming in results in 8KW of heat in your shop.
?
A 3KW 5HP motor produces 3KW worth of heat – electrical resistance heat in the power cord and motor windings, sliding friction heat in the bearings and air friction in parts rotating in air. Even the work output of the motor – the cutting,
sanding, blowing, etc., ultimately ends up as heat – if you stick your hand in a pile of just cut sawdust, it will be quite warm from the cutting tool friction and the forced deformation of the wood.
?
It is accurate to say that a 3KW motor itself doesn’t itself give off 10,000 BTU of heat, but if you factor all of the losses in the system and especially the work output into whatever the motor is doing, you end up with 10,000 BTU of heat
in your room as a result of the motor running. It’s counter-intuitive, but it’s true.
?
I am not an expert but I am pretty sure this is not correct.
“?That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.”
Only a small portion of power being consumed is generating heat.
?Mark, I understand the thermal mass.? I often run the saw or shaper for an hour or two straight.? Sucking 110F air into my shop would definitely be a problem.? When running I have a 5HP dust collector and a 5HP saw, shaper, or sander running.
That's about 8KW of electric coming in that all turns to heat, either motor heat, or friction heat from cutting etc.? My lighting is another 2.3kw.? 1kw of electric is 3412btu so 10kw of electric in is about 34K btu.? Over 3 tons of AC.? If I ran machines
all the time and wanted to keep it cool when it's over 110F I would have had to have 10 tons of AC per the mechanical engineer.? That's without dumping exhaust outside.? Now if I were heating the machine heat would work for me and not against me.
?
|
Thank you for the book recommendation – I ordered it.
?
I’m told I need a power feeder if I want to keep all my fingers. The Comatic DC40 seems to be the right place to start – the older geared systems seem like they are significantly more limited compared to the modern variable speed ones.
I’m thinking of instead of mounting the power feeder on the side of the machine, getting one of these magnetic bases:
?
?
?
That way I can use the feeder on the saw as well. Otherwise I would have to get the extra long arm for the power feeder.
?
Any thoughts on that? They claim 2000lbs of holding force from the base. I’m familiar with Magswitches in other industries and they are the real deal.
?
If you are new to shaping in general, I’d suggest a book read. It goes through all the background info I am sure you would find interesting including knife materials and differences, safety, and how to do cuts. I wish I had this book when
I got my shaper. Spindle moulder handbook. Also, Rangate made quite a few videos with Joe Calhoun on their tooling which might give you some ideas, and Greg Godbout is a great resource. The tooling is top notch in cost and quality but some of the more basic
things like insert hss are available affordably. But as you need is a great way to go. Most cutters are available pretty quickly when the demand manifests. If you think you will need a lot of custom profiles, on doors for instance, you definitely should consider
insert knives for that like what Rangate has. ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of TJ Cornish <tj@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 6:30:13 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [FOG] Getting started in shaper tooling #shapertools
Thanks for all of the thoughts. ?We’ve covered a lot of ground so I’ll summarize what I think you’ve all said:
For whatever reason, it’s not a normal thing to have a 40mm interchangeable block that covers all of the meat and potatoes like standard 1/4” 3/8” and 1/2” roundover, cove, and ogees in a pre-packaged set.
Felder sells a roundover kit separate from the interchangeable block, but it costs 8 billion dollars (my editorial - I’m still falling over a bit on the cost of all of this compared to a $19 Freud roundover bit)
Interchangeable heads are good and if possible get the chip limiter version, though in looking around, that seems to limit choices, too. Most interchangeable heads use HSS knives?
There are tools like this:??that may be a better bet for the basic stuff and are carbide instead of the HSS knives that interchangeable blocks
come with. ?They don’t have chip limiters though. Is that a big concern?
Custom grinding is interesting to me, but not something I’ll be doing anytime soon; I’m just looking to move away from my cruddy router table to the spindle in my forthcoming CF531. For my very short projects where I may need something
custom I can make it on my CNC router. As a hobbyist I have more time than money and can wait 1/2 hour for the router to cut the 4’ of trim I need rather than spending time and money on custom knives.
I still think it’s strange in the era of cheap CNC grinding that there isn’t an obvious insert tooling option that gives the advantages of carbide and cost savings with the use of the interchangeable head for basic things. I know I could
get custom-ground CNC profiles in HSS or carbide, but I’ve spent a couple hours on Amana, CMT, Freud, and other suppliers and there doesn’t seem to be easy to find normal stuff. Maybe it’s there; ALL of the websites I’ve tried are terrible - Amana, Tools Today,
CMT, etc. Freud’s was passable in that there were at least a few graphics showing multiple bit drawings and corresponding part numbers. The rest are a mishmash of poorly sorted drawings, many with no measurements given. Amana’s site is truly awful for the
insert knives - you almost have to just start clicking on random numbers.
I have ordered the “high speed spindle” for my CF531 which will let me use my existing 1/2” router bits as a backup. I was originally thinking that might be money poorly spent considering the slow speed of the shaper compared to a router,
but maybe with the cost of shaper tooling I will use it more than I originally thought.
Thanks for all of the advice. I welcome any corrections/chastisement/reproof, etc.
On May 26, 2020, at 3:35 AM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote:
?I agree. ? Prospectively buying shaper tooling before you have need for the specific cutter is a quick way to the poor house. ?Wait till you know what you need.
?
?
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
?
?
?
?
?
?I honestly would wait to buy until there is a need.
The multi profile kits are fine I suppose, but for a simple round over, ogee, or anything you just want to mount for a quick cut is no longer a quick cut if you have to set knives. You'll probably just use your router, that's fine, but a shaper will make a
much better cut requiring much less if any secondary processing,i.e. sanding.
?I like disposable carbide insert tooling most always, because they don't need to get sent out to sharpen and they put out about 3000 linear feet before dulling in medium hardwoods.
That said, these cutter heads a a bit pricey and are usually single or similar in profile.
I like a brazed cutter(round over, ogee, and such) for the profiles that are used often. Easy to swap out and you will forget you own a router. You can buy brazed tooling on ebay for? cheap and just get them sharpened. And can buy bushings to use heads that
do not match your spindle. I have a 50mm vari-angle? I picked up for $150 and use with bushings on a 1.25" spindle.
if I ever have the need and the $ at the same time I would buy a multi use cutter from Rangate about $1400 .
You should get a corrugated head or three. again you can usually find these on ebay, but since this will be an old friend eventually I spent the $ an bought a nice 3" from Shmidt to start.
It was worth it . I do have a 4" and 6" as well but bought as needed. Titan from Global Tooling in WA is fine to use and cheap when you need to make a quick 6" face cut.
With "slugs"? and "blanks"you can use a 1" knives in a 4"x4" head. Stay with larger diameters as they produce better finishes. Dual angle heads are a plus too, soft and hardwoods.
Daily use cheads for me are usually groovers and rebate heads,or discs sometimes called. It's nice to have these in the same diameter because you can stack two 12mm to make a 24mm or a 12mm with an adjustable groover for a wider range of cuts, two groovers
with spacer in between become a tenon cutting set-up, or three groovers makes double tenons that I use often.
I buy cheap Toolstoday heads for cuts that are not dependant on profile accuracy. Like a rebate for a back panel on a cabinet.
They are quite fine most any day and very affordable. BUT I find that the outer cut diamter between two 180mm groovers may vary .002" That may be well within spec for better companies, I dont know. Also in the Amana rebate head the kknive may not be exactly
parralel to one another so in theory you are producing a crowned face. Again this is extremely small and unoticable except if maybe you widthed two edges for glue up you might see a? larger glue line. I am anal about fitting and dont get much humbug from the
amana most days.
I get my custom profiles from Weinig , I was using a couple other places but had some folks burn the edges and it ruins the temper so..... Weinig is high quality and usually ships out in 48 hours or less. But probably plenty of good places to order knives.
?
?
|
If you are new to shaping in general, I’d suggest a book read. It goes through all the background info I am sure you would find interesting including knife materials and differences, safety, and how to do cuts. I wish I had this book
when I got my shaper. Spindle moulder handbook. Also, Rangate made quite a few videos with Joe Calhoun on their tooling which might give you some ideas, and Greg Godbout is a great resource. The tooling is top notch in cost and quality but some of the more
basic things like insert hss are available affordably. But as you need is a great way to go. Most cutters are available pretty quickly when the demand manifests. If you think you will need a lot of custom profiles, on doors for instance, you definitely should
consider insert knives for that like what Rangate has. ?
Michael Tagge
Built Custom Carpentry?
Get
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Thanks for all of the thoughts. ?We’ve covered a lot of ground so I’ll summarize what I think you’ve all said:
For whatever reason, it’s not a normal thing to have a 40mm interchangeable block that covers all of the meat and potatoes like standard 1/4” 3/8” and 1/2” roundover, cove, and ogees in a pre-packaged set.
Felder sells a roundover kit separate from the interchangeable block, but it costs 8 billion dollars (my editorial - I’m still falling over a bit on the cost of all of this compared to a $19 Freud roundover bit)
Interchangeable heads are good and if possible get the chip limiter version, though in looking around, that seems to limit choices, too. Most interchangeable heads use HSS knives?
There are tools like this:??that may be a better bet for the basic stuff and are carbide instead of the HSS knives that interchangeable blocks come
with. ?They don’t have chip limiters though. Is that a big concern?
Custom grinding is interesting to me, but not something I’ll be doing anytime soon; I’m just looking to move away from my cruddy router table to the spindle in my forthcoming CF531. For my very short projects where I may need something custom
I can make it on my CNC router. As a hobbyist I have more time than money and can wait 1/2 hour for the router to cut the 4’ of trim I need rather than spending time and money on custom knives.
I still think it’s strange in the era of cheap CNC grinding that there isn’t an obvious insert tooling option that gives the advantages of carbide and cost savings with the use of the interchangeable head for basic things. I know I could get
custom-ground CNC profiles in HSS or carbide, but I’ve spent a couple hours on Amana, CMT, Freud, and other suppliers and there doesn’t seem to be easy to find normal stuff. Maybe it’s there; ALL of the websites I’ve tried are terrible - Amana, Tools Today,
CMT, etc. Freud’s was passable in that there were at least a few graphics showing multiple bit drawings and corresponding part numbers. The rest are a mishmash of poorly sorted drawings, many with no measurements given. Amana’s site is truly awful for the
insert knives - you almost have to just start clicking on random numbers.
I have ordered the “high speed spindle” for my CF531 which will let me use my existing 1/2” router bits as a backup. I was originally thinking that might be money poorly spent considering the slow speed of the shaper compared to a router, but
maybe with the cost of shaper tooling I will use it more than I originally thought.
Thanks for all of the advice. I welcome any corrections/chastisement/reproof, etc.
On May 26, 2020, at 3:35 AM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote:
?I agree. ? Prospectively buying shaper tooling before you have need for the specific cutter is a quick way to the poor house. ?Wait till you know what you need.
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
?I honestly would wait to buy until there is a need.
The multi profile kits are fine I suppose, but for a simple round over, ogee, or anything you just want to mount for a quick cut is no longer a quick cut if you have to set knives. You'll probably just use your router, that's fine, but a shaper will make a
much better cut requiring much less if any secondary processing,i.e. sanding.
?I like disposable carbide insert tooling most always, because they don't need to get sent out to sharpen and they put out about 3000 linear feet before dulling in medium hardwoods.
That said, these cutter heads a a bit pricey and are usually single or similar in profile.
I like a brazed cutter(round over, ogee, and such) for the profiles that are used often. Easy to swap out and you will forget you own a router. You can buy brazed tooling on ebay for? cheap and just get them sharpened. And can buy bushings to use heads that
do not match your spindle. I have a 50mm vari-angle? I picked up for $150 and use with bushings on a 1.25" spindle.
if I ever have the need and the $ at the same time I would buy a multi use cutter from Rangate about $1400 .
You should get a corrugated head or three. again you can usually find these on ebay, but since this will be an old friend eventually I spent the $ an bought a nice 3" from Shmidt to start.
It was worth it . I do have a 4" and 6" as well but bought as needed. Titan from Global Tooling in WA is fine to use and cheap when you need to make a quick 6" face cut.
With "slugs"? and "blanks"you can use a 1" knives in a 4"x4" head. Stay with larger diameters as they produce better finishes. Dual angle heads are a plus too, soft and hardwoods.
Daily use cheads for me are usually groovers and rebate heads,or discs sometimes called. It's nice to have these in the same diameter because you can stack two 12mm to make a 24mm or a 12mm with an adjustable groover for a wider range of cuts, two groovers
with spacer in between become a tenon cutting set-up, or three groovers makes double tenons that I use often.
I buy cheap Toolstoday heads for cuts that are not dependant on profile accuracy. Like a rebate for a back panel on a cabinet.
They are quite fine most any day and very affordable. BUT I find that the outer cut diamter between two 180mm groovers may vary .002" That may be well within spec for better companies, I dont know. Also in the Amana rebate head the kknive may not be exactly
parralel to one another so in theory you are producing a crowned face. Again this is extremely small and unoticable except if maybe you widthed two edges for glue up you might see a? larger glue line. I am anal about fitting and dont get much humbug from the
amana most days.
I get my custom profiles from Weinig , I was using a couple other places but had some folks burn the edges and it ruins the temper so..... Weinig is high quality and usually ships out in 48 hours or less. But probably plenty of good places to order knives.
?
|
Thanks for all of the thoughts. ?We’ve covered a lot of ground so I’ll summarize what I think you’ve all said:
For whatever reason, it’s not a normal thing to have a 40mm interchangeable block that covers all of the meat and potatoes like standard 1/4” 3/8” and 1/2” roundover, cove, and ogees in a pre-packaged set.
Felder sells a roundover kit separate from the interchangeable block, but it costs 8 billion dollars (my editorial - I’m still falling over a bit on the cost of all of this compared to a $19 Freud roundover bit)
Interchangeable heads are good and if possible get the chip limiter version, though in looking around, that seems to limit choices, too. Most interchangeable heads use HSS knives?
There are tools like this:??that may be a better bet for the basic stuff and are carbide instead of the HSS knives that interchangeable blocks come with. ?They don’t have chip limiters though. Is that a big concern?
Custom grinding is interesting to me, but not something I’ll be doing anytime soon; I’m just looking to move away from my cruddy router table to the spindle in my forthcoming CF531. For my very short projects where I may need something custom I can make it on my CNC router. As a hobbyist I have more time than money and can wait 1/2 hour for the router to cut the 4’ of trim I need rather than spending time and money on custom knives.
I still think it’s strange in the era of cheap CNC grinding that there isn’t an obvious insert tooling option that gives the advantages of carbide and cost savings with the use of the interchangeable head for basic things. I know I could get custom-ground CNC profiles in HSS or carbide, but I’ve spent a couple hours on Amana, CMT, Freud, and other suppliers and there doesn’t seem to be easy to find normal stuff. Maybe it’s there; ALL of the websites I’ve tried are terrible - Amana, Tools Today, CMT, etc. Freud’s was passable in that there were at least a few graphics showing multiple bit drawings and corresponding part numbers. The rest are a mishmash of poorly sorted drawings, many with no measurements given. Amana’s site is truly awful for the insert knives - you almost have to just start clicking on random numbers.
I have ordered the “high speed spindle” for my CF531 which will let me use my existing 1/2” router bits as a backup. I was originally thinking that might be money poorly spent considering the slow speed of the shaper compared to a router, but maybe with the cost of shaper tooling I will use it more than I originally thought.
Thanks for all of the advice. I welcome any corrections/chastisement/reproof, etc.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 26, 2020, at 3:35 AM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote:
? I agree. ? Prospectively buying shaper tooling before you have need for the specific cutter is a quick way to the poor house. ?Wait till you know what you need.
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
?I honestly would wait to buy until there is a need.
The multi profile kits are fine I suppose, but for a simple round over, ogee, or anything you just want to mount for a quick cut is no longer a quick cut if you have to set knives. You'll probably just use your router, that's fine, but a shaper will make a much better cut requiring much less if any secondary processing,i.e. sanding.
?I like disposable carbide insert tooling most always, because they don't need to get sent out to sharpen and they put out about 3000 linear feet before dulling in medium hardwoods.
That said, these cutter heads a a bit pricey and are usually single or similar in profile.
I like a brazed cutter(round over, ogee, and such) for the profiles that are used often. Easy to swap out and you will forget you own a router. You can buy brazed tooling on ebay for? cheap and just get them sharpened. And can buy bushings to use heads that do not match your spindle. I have a 50mm vari-angle? I picked up for $150 and use with bushings on a 1.25" spindle.
if I ever have the need and the $ at the same time I would buy a multi use cutter from Rangate about $1400 .
You should get a corrugated head or three. again you can usually find these on ebay, but since this will be an old friend eventually I spent the $ an bought a nice 3" from Shmidt to start.
It was worth it . I do have a 4" and 6" as well but bought as needed. Titan from Global Tooling in WA is fine to use and cheap when you need to make a quick 6" face cut.
With "slugs"? and "blanks"you can use a 1" knives in a 4"x4" head. Stay with larger diameters as they produce better finishes. Dual angle heads are a plus too, soft and hardwoods.
Daily use cheads for me are usually groovers and rebate heads,or discs sometimes called. It's nice to have these in the same diameter because you can stack two 12mm to make a 24mm or a 12mm with an adjustable groover for a wider range of cuts, two groovers with spacer in between become a tenon cutting set-up, or three groovers makes double tenons that I use often.
I buy cheap Toolstoday heads for cuts that are not dependant on profile accuracy. Like a rebate for a back panel on a cabinet.
They are quite fine most any day and very affordable. BUT I find that the outer cut diamter between two 180mm groovers may vary .002" That may be well within spec for better companies, I dont know. Also in the Amana rebate head the kknive may not be exactly parralel to one another so in theory you are producing a crowned face. Again this is extremely small and unoticable except if maybe you widthed two edges for glue up you might see a? larger glue line. I am anal about fitting and dont get much humbug from the amana most days.
I get my custom profiles from Weinig , I was using a couple other places but had some folks burn the edges and it ruins the temper so..... Weinig is high quality and usually ships out in 48 hours or less. But probably plenty of good places to order knives.
?
|
I agree. ? Prospectively buying shaper tooling before you have need for the specific cutter is a quick way to the poor house. ?Wait till you know what you need.
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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Show quoted text
?I honestly would wait to buy until there is a need.
The multi profile kits are fine I suppose, but for a simple round over, ogee, or anything you just want to mount for a quick cut is no longer a quick cut if you have to set knives. You'll probably just use your router, that's fine, but a shaper will make a much better cut requiring much less if any secondary processing,i.e. sanding.
?I like disposable carbide insert tooling most always, because they don't need to get sent out to sharpen and they put out about 3000 linear feet before dulling in medium hardwoods.
That said, these cutter heads a a bit pricey and are usually single or similar in profile.
I like a brazed cutter(round over, ogee, and such) for the profiles that are used often. Easy to swap out and you will forget you own a router. You can buy brazed tooling on ebay for? cheap and just get them sharpened. And can buy bushings to use heads that do not match your spindle. I have a 50mm vari-angle? I picked up for $150 and use with bushings on a 1.25" spindle.
if I ever have the need and the $ at the same time I would buy a multi use cutter from Rangate about $1400 .
You should get a corrugated head or three. again you can usually find these on ebay, but since this will be an old friend eventually I spent the $ an bought a nice 3" from Shmidt to start.
It was worth it . I do have a 4" and 6" as well but bought as needed. Titan from Global Tooling in WA is fine to use and cheap when you need to make a quick 6" face cut.
With "slugs"? and "blanks"you can use a 1" knives in a 4"x4" head. Stay with larger diameters as they produce better finishes. Dual angle heads are a plus too, soft and hardwoods.
Daily use cheads for me are usually groovers and rebate heads,or discs sometimes called. It's nice to have these in the same diameter because you can stack two 12mm to make a 24mm or a 12mm with an adjustable groover for a wider range of cuts, two groovers with spacer in between become a tenon cutting set-up, or three groovers makes double tenons that I use often.
I buy cheap Toolstoday heads for cuts that are not dependant on profile accuracy. Like a rebate for a back panel on a cabinet.
They are quite fine most any day and very affordable. BUT I find that the outer cut diamter between two 180mm groovers may vary .002" That may be well within spec for better companies, I dont know. Also in the Amana rebate head the kknive may not be exactly parralel to one another so in theory you are producing a crowned face. Again this is extremely small and unoticable except if maybe you widthed two edges for glue up you might see a? larger glue line. I am anal about fitting and dont get much humbug from the amana most days.
I get my custom profiles from Weinig , I was using a couple other places but had some folks burn the edges and it ruins the temper so..... Weinig is high quality and usually ships out in 48 hours or less. But probably plenty of good places to order knives.
?
|
Brett, I used to live near the ? Columbia Falls, MT milk where Plum?Creek made the MDF. ? I’ve been in the mill several times. Fascinating to watch the MDF get made but the smell of formaldehyde or whatever chemical the used gave me a migraine after about 5 minutes. The noise didn’t help.?
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On May 20, 2020, at 1:43 PM, Brett Wissel < Brettwissel@...> wrote: Looking at some projects, don't use much mdf, and when I do, it's usually home depot onesy-twosie kind of stuff. In my CNC communities there is a general regard fro Plum Creek super refined MDF as "the best". My big big big (supplies the local lumber companies) supplier carries Roseburg, which has a variety of optional specifications from flame retardant to "medite" to "medite II", to "medite 3d" and such as here??.?
I seek you opinions and experiences on MDF, thanks in advance. I'm hoping I can build a really great boat with your recommendations, lol.
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Re: Getting Rid of Masks - Huge Sale
If did not occur to me that this person was not legit. So I did click and thd website had 4 diff kinds of masks. I considered ordering 5pk of N95 but decided against it. 10% off code worked. It was going to be $25 delivered. For something like this I rather go with brand I am familiar with like 3M, not sure if it buys anything other than piece of mind.
Imran
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On May 25, 2020, at 6:46 PM, S L via groups.io <ayesurely@...> wrote: ? Thanks Brian, I didnt click the link, but I'm fairly confident that the masks dont exist.?
Stephen?
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Re: Getting Rid of Masks - Huge Sale
Thank You, Brian. Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 3:44 PM Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: I also removed the post, can’t stop that it was already distributed to anybody on email, but it’s off the message board.
On May 25, 2020, at 3:42 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
I banned the person. Sorry, they were asking some legit sounding questions, obviously to get in and sell their wares. This group is not as easy to keep someone moderated until I’m sure they are legit.
Hey everyone,
Our website is having a massive mask sale for both wholesale and retail. We are looking to get rid of all stock so we can expand on to new ones. Check out??? ? ? Be sure to use our promo code:?SAVE10NOW?to save an additional 10 percent on your order!
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Re: Getting Rid of Masks - Huge Sale
Thanks Brian, I didnt click the link, but I'm fairly confident that the masks dont exist.?
Stephen?
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Re: Getting Rid of Masks - Huge Sale
I also removed the post, can’t stop that it was already distributed to anybody on email, but it’s off the message board.
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On May 25, 2020, at 3:42 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
I banned the person. Sorry, they were asking some legit sounding questions, obviously to get in and sell their wares. This group is not as easy to keep someone moderated until I’m sure they are legit.
Hey everyone,
Our website is having a massive mask sale for both wholesale and retail. We are looking to get rid of all stock so we can expand on to new ones. Check out??? ? ? Be sure to use our promo code:?SAVE10NOW?to save an additional 10 percent on your order!
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Re: Getting Rid of Masks - Huge Sale
I banned the person. Sorry, they were asking some legit sounding questions, obviously to get in and sell their wares. This group is not as easy to keep someone moderated until I’m sure they are legit.
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Hey everyone,
Our website is having a massive mask sale for both wholesale and retail. We are looking to get rid of all stock so we can expand on to new ones. Check out??? ? ? Be sure to use our promo code:?SAVE10NOW?to save an additional 10 percent on your order!
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Dave and Imran, just for comparison thats what it costs me to get 3 carbide knives with backers done from Royce-Ayr.
On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 4:13 PM Dave Rossetti < rossetti@...> wrote: Imran,
You asked about custom knife experience. About a year ago I needed to make a specific profile to match a frame and panel desktop I was repairing and had a great experience with Charles GG Schmidt & Co in Montvale, NJ, . I sent them a slice of the wood part I needed to reproduce, along with measurements and some notes, see attached photo. They sent back a dimensioned drawing for approval and for $142 + shipping I received a pair of 40 mm cutters that fit the Felder head and worked perfectly. It did not include limiters but I ground down a similar pair and used them though not sure that was totally necessary.
--
- Dave Rossetti, Santa Fe
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Re: Getting Rid of Masks - Huge Sale
Abners, So first you want a non specific instruction manual, then you want non specific instructional videos, and now you want to sell your entire stock of masks.... Think I'll pass on this one?
Brian, You may want to look into this?
Security conscious little ole me.?
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?I honestly would wait to buy until there is a need.
The multi profile kits are fine I suppose, but for a simple round over, ogee, or anything you just want to mount for a quick cut is no longer a quick cut if you have to set knives. You'll probably just use your router, that's fine, but a shaper will make a much better cut requiring much less if any secondary processing,i.e. sanding.
?I like disposable carbide insert tooling most always, because they don't need to get sent out to sharpen and they put out about 3000 linear feet before dulling in medium hardwoods.
That said, these cutter heads a a bit pricey and are usually single or similar in profile.
I like a brazed cutter(round over, ogee, and such) for the profiles that are used often. Easy to swap out and you will forget you own a router. You can buy brazed tooling on ebay for? cheap and just get them sharpened. And can buy bushings to use heads that do not match your spindle. I have a 50mm vari-angle? I picked up for $150 and use with bushings on a 1.25" spindle.
if I ever have the need and the $ at the same time I would buy a multi use cutter from Rangate about $1400 .
You should get a corrugated head or three. again you can usually find these on ebay, but since this will be an old friend eventually I spent the $ an bought a nice 3" from Shmidt to start.
It was worth it . I do have a 4" and 6" as well but bought as needed. Titan from Global Tooling in WA is fine to use and cheap when you need to make a quick 6" face cut.
With "slugs"? and "blanks"you can use a 1" knives in a 4"x4" head. Stay with larger diameters as they produce better finishes. Dual angle heads are a plus too, soft and hardwoods.
Daily use cheads for me are usually groovers and rebate heads,or discs sometimes called. It's nice to have these in the same diameter because you can stack two 12mm to make a 24mm or a 12mm with an adjustable groover for a wider range of cuts, two groovers with spacer in between become a tenon cutting set-up, or three groovers makes double tenons that I use often.
I buy cheap Toolstoday heads for cuts that are not dependant on profile accuracy. Like a rebate for a back panel on a cabinet.
They are quite fine most any day and very affordable. BUT I find that the outer cut diamter between two 180mm groovers may vary .002" That may be well within spec for better companies, I dont know. Also in the Amana rebate head the kknive may not be exactly parralel to one another so in theory you are producing a crowned face. Again this is extremely small and unoticable except if maybe you widthed two edges for glue up you might see a? larger glue line. I am anal about fitting and dont get much humbug from the amana most days.
I get my custom profiles from Weinig , I was using a couple other places but had some folks burn the edges and it ruins the temper so..... Weinig is high quality and usually ships out in 48 hours or less. But probably plenty of good places to order knives.
?
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Thanks Dave. Good to know the going rate. Certainly have gone up since I looked into it 15 yrs ago.
CG Schmidt is well known W Moore is another but I see their European page is not responding. I got catalogs of both of these outfits from Woodmaster when I bought their Planer/Moulder. Used to be that rate was $x/in.
Imran?
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On May 25, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Dave Rossetti <rossetti@...> wrote: ?Imran, You asked about custom knife experience. About a year ago I needed to make a specific profile to match a frame and panel desktop I was repairing and had a great experience with Charles GG Schmidt & Co in Montvale, NJ, . I sent them a slice of the wood part I needed to reproduce, along with measurements and some notes, see attached photo. They sent back a dimensioned drawing for approval and for $142 + shipping I received a pair of 40 mm cutters that fit the Felder head and worked perfectly. It did not include limiters but I ground down a similar pair and used them though not sure that was totally necessary. -- - Dave Rossetti, Santa Fe
<Profile Cutter.jpg>
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Imran,
You asked about custom knife experience. About a year ago I needed to make a specific profile to match a frame and panel desktop I was repairing and had a great experience with Charles GG Schmidt & Co in Montvale, NJ, . I sent them a slice of the wood part I needed to reproduce, along with measurements and some notes, see attached photo. They sent back a dimensioned drawing for approval and for $142 + shipping I received a pair of 40 mm cutters that fit the Felder head and worked perfectly. It did not include limiters but I ground down a similar pair and used them though not sure that was totally necessary.
--
- Dave Rossetti, Santa Fe
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In my experience the customs officers have a lot of leeway. I ordered twice from Germany one order with BowmouldMaster was $2k. I did not get a call both times. One time I brought a hand made large carpet from Pakistan. The customs card said $400 limit per person and the carpet was way over that. I handed over the filled card to customs officer at the airport and he asked me std questions and waived me to go.
Imran
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On May 25, 2020, at 1:47 PM, Chris Perren <cperren@...> wrote: ? Interesting -- I had the same experience. I had to pay a small import fee (i.e. $75) of approximate $1200 in tooling from Whitehill UK. … From memory the US Custom agent stated “The fee could be avoided if the package was broken up and shipped into smaller amounts”.. ??My other orders from Germany with similar tooling amounts has had zero challenges from US Customs…? Not sure why or reasons ??? ? Regards, ? Chris Perren 512-415-6951 ? ? So far, I have bought all my Shaper tooling from Whitehill in the UK. I live just outside Nashville, TN. My last order was for around $1200. I did get a notice, in my mail, to call US Customs when the package arrived here in the USA. It asked me to call the Customs office, I guess to figure out if there would be any import tax duty. When I called, they asked me what the items were and how they would be used. I explained, stating they were for home/hobbyist use, ?and they released the package, without any duty fees payable. I had the package a couple of days later. ?
On May 25, 2020, at 12:14 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...> wrote: ? Based on this thread I added Whitehill and Royce-Ayr to the sources wiki page (/g/felderownersgroup/wiki/18408) I know the last time I mentioned the Wiki there was a problem with the permissions.? I believe Brian fixed them so that all members can edit. ? In my experience no one is interested in grinding knives for the Universal head as there is no money in it for them unless they are carbide. That substantially?raises the cost. To see the full range of knives that are available for the?universal head either 40mm or 50mm you have to get a Dimar, CMT or similar catalog. For longer run profiles I personally use a triple knife 50mm head from Royce-Ayr. It takes thinner carbide with a back plate. The 3 knives give a beautiful cut in any wood I've tried. The knives and head are also profiled for?hardwood. Not surprising but most generic tooling is profile for softwood.? In these times I prefer to give my money to a company based in NA for tooling, then going overseas. Royce-Ayr,? FS Tools and Leitz are all 45 minutes from me with reps coming to my small shop. Mike has suggested that Whitehill makes tooling for Felder which is remotely possible but I've never heard of tooling coming from anyone except German sources. ? On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 10:44 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote: I thought you could get custom knives for both 40mm & 50mm safety cutters. They had a graph paper for you to draw one out. Remember it being the cheapest option to get profiles, for hobbyist or short runs, as long as 40mm/50mm is acceptable. I have never ordered any. Has anyone done so? There were other similar cutters with custom knives as an option. I have not checked this out in a while so will take a bit of looking to see who is still around.
On May 25, 2020, at 8:51 AM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
?I am awaiting delivery of a CF531. This will be my first shaper. I'm familiar with router bits of course and the fantastic custom stuff you can do with shaper tooling like rail and stile cutters, but am trying to get my head around how you do normal things such as coves and roundovers.
I like the idea of a multi-knife head like the Felder 40mm safety head, and I understand the function of chip limiters which sure seem like a good idea to me, but the knife choices that are available from the Felder site are in many cases, really odd and I struggle to see how I would use them. Conspicuously absent are a set of radiuses - 6mm, 9mm, 12mm, etc., sizes that are ubiquitous in router bits and probably some of the first profiles new router users buy. This seems true even in the Amana line - there are a lot of strange choices, but finding normal knives is challenging.
I understand the idea of shifting the head up or down to get several profiles on one knife, but again, a lot of the knives I see don't seem particularly useful.? What am I missing? How do you best do normal things on a shaper??
For example, this is one of the few knives that makes sense to me:??It has the roundover and cove profiles for an 8mm radius on one knife, and I can see how to use both of these. Why aren't there similar knives in other radiuses?
In non-replacable tooling, I've found roundover cutters like these:??but I'm surprised that I can't find the comparable stuff in the replacable knives world.
What am I missing?? Thanks in advance.
--
-- Michael Garrison Stuber
?
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Interesting -- I had the same experience. I had to pay a small import fee (i.e. $75) of approximate $1200 in tooling from Whitehill UK. … From memory the US Custom agent stated “The fee could be avoided if the package was broken up and shipped into smaller amounts”.. ??My other orders from Germany with similar tooling amounts has had zero challenges from US Customs…? Not sure why or reasons ??? ? Regards, ? Chris Perren 512-415-6951 ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Christopher Edwards Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 12:26 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [FOG] Getting started in shaper tooling #shapertools ? So far, I have bought all my Shaper tooling from Whitehill in the UK. I live just outside Nashville, TN. My last order was for around $1200. I did get a notice, in my mail, to call US Customs when the package arrived here in the USA. It asked me to call the Customs office, I guess to figure out if there would be any import tax duty. When I called, they asked me what the items were and how they would be used. I explained, stating they were for home/hobbyist use, ?and they released the package, without any duty fees payable. I had the package a couple of days later. ?
On May 25, 2020, at 12:14 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...> wrote: ? Based on this thread I added Whitehill and Royce-Ayr to the sources wiki page (/g/felderownersgroup/wiki/18408) I know the last time I mentioned the Wiki there was a problem with the permissions.? I believe Brian fixed them so that all members can edit. ? In my experience no one is interested in grinding knives for the Universal head as there is no money in it for them unless they are carbide. That substantially?raises the cost. To see the full range of knives that are available for the?universal head either 40mm or 50mm you have to get a Dimar, CMT or similar catalog. For longer run profiles I personally use a triple knife 50mm head from Royce-Ayr. It takes thinner carbide with a back plate. The 3 knives give a beautiful cut in any wood I've tried. The knives and head are also profiled for?hardwood. Not surprising but most generic tooling is profile for softwood.? In these times I prefer to give my money to a company based in NA for tooling, then going overseas. Royce-Ayr,? FS Tools and Leitz are all 45 minutes from me with reps coming to my small shop. Mike has suggested that Whitehill makes tooling for Felder which is remotely possible but I've never heard of tooling coming from anyone except German sources. ? On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 10:44 AM imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote: I thought you could get custom knives for both 40mm & 50mm safety cutters. They had a graph paper for you to draw one out. Remember it being the cheapest option to get profiles, for hobbyist or short runs, as long as 40mm/50mm is acceptable. I have never ordered any. Has anyone done so? There were other similar cutters with custom knives as an option. I have not checked this out in a while so will take a bit of looking to see who is still around.
On May 25, 2020, at 8:51 AM, TJ Cornish <tj@...> wrote:
?I am awaiting delivery of a CF531. This will be my first shaper. I'm familiar with router bits of course and the fantastic custom stuff you can do with shaper tooling like rail and stile cutters, but am trying to get my head around how you do normal things such as coves and roundovers.
I like the idea of a multi-knife head like the Felder 40mm safety head, and I understand the function of chip limiters which sure seem like a good idea to me, but the knife choices that are available from the Felder site are in many cases, really odd and I struggle to see how I would use them. Conspicuously absent are a set of radiuses - 6mm, 9mm, 12mm, etc., sizes that are ubiquitous in router bits and probably some of the first profiles new router users buy. This seems true even in the Amana line - there are a lot of strange choices, but finding normal knives is challenging.
I understand the idea of shifting the head up or down to get several profiles on one knife, but again, a lot of the knives I see don't seem particularly useful.? What am I missing? How do you best do normal things on a shaper??
For example, this is one of the few knives that makes sense to me:??It has the roundover and cove profiles for an 8mm radius on one knife, and I can see how to use both of these. Why aren't there similar knives in other radiuses?
In non-replacable tooling, I've found roundover cutters like these:??but I'm surprised that I can't find the comparable stuff in the replacable knives world.
What am I missing?? Thanks in advance.
--
-- Michael Garrison Stuber
?
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Yes, it is set so all members can view and edit.
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On May 25, 2020, at 10:14 AM, Michael Garrison Stuber < mtgstuber@...> wrote:
Based on this thread I added Whitehill and Royce-Ayr to the
sources wiki page
(/g/felderownersgroup/wiki/18408) I know the last time I mentioned the Wiki there was a problem
with the permissions.? I believe Brian fixed them so that all
members can edit.
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Yea I checked out the Flickr,
Thanks a lot.
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Joe Jensen
David P. Best
Gerald Yungling
imran
Dave Rossetti
