Re: Good first shaper bit
I will second that to everything Alex said.
I did the alpine shaper class this last summer and will say it was the best thing I have done, What you think is expensive was worth every penny spent and more.
Before the class I had never used a shaper and had a very expensive one sitting in front of me in my new shop and afraid of it
after the class, I use it all the time and feel good about it, I haven't tried the bow master yet but straight runs with our without the power feeder is just cool.
I would highly suggest that anyone who is new to the shaper, Take the class, Its cheaper than a loss of a digit. Joe is a remarkable guy and will spend extra time with you on something that your not clear or comfortable with. He even gave me some time after class helping me with some milling questions that were not even part of the class.
For 2k or what ever it was, best money spent yet, I am planning to go back and take the lift and slide & the euro window classes. I will probably never built one, but the classes are above the top.
Now If I could get David Best to spend a week at my shop, that would be the best it can get with angels..............hint
Glen
Big Tree Woodworking
P.O. Box 257 Avery Ca 95224
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 8:16 PM Alex Bowlds < aabj@...> wrote: I was completely new to the use of the shaper.? I too didn¡¯t have a clue how to get started.? I learned of the Alpine Technical Workshops that are taught by Joe Calhoun in Ouray Colorado.? Greg Godbout of Rangate facilitates the logistics for these classes.? While attending the first class, I worked with Greg to get a starter set of shaper tools.? Since then, I have been adding to my set as I determine my needs.? I was told that the shaper is one machine that will ultimately have more expense in tooling than the machine.? I¡¯ve got a good start on that.
I would recommend you consider taking one or more of the Alpine classes.? They focus on the SAFE use of the shaper.? While there, you will get ample opportunity to discuss your tooling needs with Greg, Joe, and the other students.? Plus, Greg provides a great discount on tooling to Alpine attendees.? And the bonus is you get to learn how to keep all your digits while using the shaper.? The classes aren¡¯t cheap, in my opinion, they are worth every penny.? Class size is limited to six or less.?
Enjoy,
Alex On Feb 11, 2020, at 2:24 PM, robsimmons67 via Groups.Io <robsimmons67=[email protected]> wrote:
?So after getting my C3-41 I am not sure what a good first but would to get. I do have a router table but I do want to use the shaper. Any advice on what a good bit or two to get? Just have no idea where to start.?
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Re: Good first shaper bit
I was completely new to the use of the shaper. ?I too didn¡¯t have a clue how to get started. ?I learned of the Alpine Technical Workshops that are taught by Joe Calhoun in Ouray Colorado. ?Greg Godbout of Rangate facilitates the logistics for these classes. ?While attending the first class, I worked with Greg to get a starter set of shaper tools. ?Since then, I have been adding to my set as I determine my needs. ?I was told that the shaper is one machine that will ultimately have more expense in tooling than the machine. ?I¡¯ve got a good start on that.
I would recommend you consider taking one or more of the Alpine classes. ?They focus on the SAFE use of the shaper. ?While there, you will get ample opportunity to discuss your tooling needs with Greg, Joe, and the other students. ?Plus, Greg provides a great discount on tooling to Alpine attendees. ?And the bonus is you get to learn how to keep all your digits while using the shaper. ?The classes aren¡¯t cheap, in my opinion, they are worth every penny. ?Class size is limited to six or less.?
Enjoy,
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On Feb 11, 2020, at 2:24 PM, robsimmons67 via Groups.Io <robsimmons67@...> wrote:
?So after getting my C3-41 I am not sure what a good first but would to get. I do have a router table but I do want to use the shaper. Any advice on what a good bit or two to get? Just have no idea where to start.?
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It may not be available, as a number of hits that look like (by title) as possible items in the on-line catalog items (found by searching for a "Euro Guard") are grayed out. They state "We are sorry this product is currently ineligible for shipment to your country".? Part of the tariffs?
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Re: Good first shaper bit
I called Greg at Rangate and got the Craftsman shaper set. From what I¡¯ve been reading, it¡¯s a very good start. $2900+
Bill Belanger?
Rob, I would make a call to Greg at Rangate. I bought a set of start up cutters from him at the Vegas show and got a very good deal based on what it would have been buying separate.
I got a rebate head, two adjustable groovers, and a basic profile set, great start for me to learn on. I have used all a lot except the profile cutter so far. The finish cut are extremely clean. how every the smaller groover will not do 1/4" so I bought another one. Very happy with the company, product and service. I cant remember the cost but it was good for what I got.? ?
Big Tree Woodworking
P.O. Box 257 Avery Ca 95224
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 1:50 PM robsimmons67 via Groups.Io <robsimmons67= [email protected]> wrote: So after getting my C3-41 I am not sure what a good first but would to get. I do have a router table but I do want to use the shaper. Any advice on what a good bit or two to get? Just have no idea where to start.?
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Re: Good first shaper bit
I was going to add this but David Best already just did, The Cuttershare from Rangate is a great way to try stuff out, although basic cutters are not in the program, a lot are.
I am going to try my first attempt on raised panel doors next, well not first but first on the new machines and I am planning to use the Cuttershare for this. I have full intention of buying the set but until I figure out the door style trend where I live that appears to be ever changing, Cuttershare is a no brainer.
Glen
Big Tree Woodworking
P.O. Box 257 Avery Ca 95224
This is the kind of spiral cutter Lucky is talking about. ? This particular one is a Rangate product and comes with a rub bearing for template work and has nickers top and bottom.? I have a similar version made by Leitz.? Terrific cutter.?
 I often get asked ¡°I¡¯m new to shapers and want to get cutters for it, what should I buy?¡±. ? In my own experience, that¡¯s putting the cart before the horse, and if you aren¡¯t careful you¡¯ll spend a lot of money on tooling that¡¯s rarely or never used. ? I learned this the hard way. ? The best strategy for shaper tooling is to let the projects you commit to making drive the acquisition of the shaper tooling. ??
For instance, if you think you¡¯ll be doing a lot of tenon cutting for joinery, a pair of deep cutting rebate cutters might seem ideal - stack one cutter above the other with a spacer in between and presto, you have a variable thickness tenoner. ? Then a year later you realize all your tenon work is done with a Festool domino router. ? I¡¯ve seen this specific scenario many times. ?
To be sure, some cutters are more general use than others, and a spiral rebate cutter like Lucky mentioned facilitates template/pattern work, edge rebates, and can even be useful as dimensioning timber. ?
Lots of people will say to get a variable thickness grooving cutter.? The utility of a groover is entirely dependent on the projects you undertake. ? I have two variable width groomers in my shaper tool inventory, and they are the least used cutters in my collection because of the type of work I do. ??
Then there are the bargain hunters who lunge after cutters because they are on sale, or offered at a whopping discount to new.? I¡¯ve been guilty of this myself.? So you buy that super screaming deal of a panel raising cutter, then once you use it you discover it doesn¡¯t have the profile shape you want, or is too large to go down into the shaper cavity below the cast iron top like you thought. ? Research what fits your machine, and buy what you know you need and will meet all the needs of your project and fit the machine.
Rangate¡¯s Cutter Share program is a terrific way to test out shaper tooling. ? You can rent most of their standard cutters for a few months for a project, then if you decide you need to own it, you can buy that set at a discount.?
My very strong encouragement is to let your projects drive your cutter purchases, and resist the temptation to buy a bunch of tooling on a prospective basis. ?
David Best - Sent from my iPad On Feb 11, 2020, at 6:01 PM, imranindiana via Groups.Io <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
? David,
I do not have a spiral head like you describe. Just a question, does it have nickers top and bottom to do clean rebates like a rebate head. If not how do you rate rebate quality compared to a rebate head with nickers - I assume you have one.
Imran On Feb 12, 2020, at 3:00 AM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?In general, the most used cutter by my colleagues and me, is a spiral cutter between 80-125mm diameter, and 60-100mm tall. The exact size depends on your machine¡¯s capacity to tilt the cutter through a full 45 degrees.?
This cutter can rebate timber, on the top or bottom, forward or backward, very cleanly, and at a myriad of sizes. You can put an angle on the edge of a piece of timber. You can chamfer edges at basically any size. You can even ¡°raise¡± a panel by rebating the front to fit into a table-saw-made groove and complete cabinet work.?
Many places make a cutter like I¡¯ve described above, including Hammer, Felder, Rangate, etc. I have a 125mm dia. Spiral cutter from Leitz. I love it and use it all the time.? And your second cutter should be an adjustable groover, unless you have the dado set? On 12 Feb 2020, at 7:50 am, robsimmons67 via Groups.Io <robsimmons67=[email protected]> wrote:
?So after getting my C3-41 I am not sure what a good first but would to get. I do have a router table but I do want to use the shaper. Any advice on what a good bit or two to get? Just have no idea where to start.?
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Re: Good first shaper bit
Rob, I would make a call to Greg at Rangate. I bought a set of start up cutters from him at the Vegas show and got a very good deal based on what it would have been buying separate.
I got a rebate head, two adjustable groovers, and a basic profile set, great start for me to learn on. I have used all a lot except the profile cutter so far. The finish cut are extremely clean. how every the smaller groover will not do 1/4" so I bought another one. Very happy with the company, product and service. I cant remember the cost but it was good for what I got.? ?
Big Tree Woodworking
P.O. Box 257 Avery Ca 95224
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 1:50 PM robsimmons67 via Groups.Io <robsimmons67= [email protected]> wrote: So after getting my C3-41 I am not sure what a good first but would to get. I do have a router table but I do want to use the shaper. Any advice on what a good bit or two to get? Just have no idea where to start.?
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Re: Good first shaper bit
This is the kind of spiral cutter Lucky is talking about. ? This particular one is a Rangate product and comes with a rub bearing for template work and has nickers top and bottom. ?I have a similar version made by Leitz. ?Terrific cutter.?
 I often get asked ¡°I¡¯m new to shapers and want to get cutters for it, what should I buy?¡±. ? In my own experience, that¡¯s putting the cart before the horse, and if you aren¡¯t careful you¡¯ll spend a lot of money on tooling that¡¯s rarely or never used. ? I learned this the hard way. ? The best strategy for shaper tooling is to let the projects you commit to making drive the acquisition of the shaper tooling. ??
For instance, if you think you¡¯ll be doing a lot of tenon cutting for joinery, a pair of deep cutting rebate cutters might seem ideal - stack one cutter above the other with a spacer in between and presto, you have a variable thickness tenoner. ? Then a year later you realize all your tenon work is done with a Festool domino router. ? I¡¯ve seen this specific scenario many times. ?
To be sure, some cutters are more general use than others, and a spiral rebate cutter like Lucky mentioned facilitates template/pattern work, edge rebates, and can even be useful as dimensioning timber. ?
Lots of people will say to get a variable thickness grooving cutter. ?The utility of a groover is entirely dependent on the projects you undertake. ? I have two variable width groomers in my shaper tool inventory, and they are the least used cutters in my collection because of the type of work I do. ??
Then there are the bargain hunters who lunge after cutters because they are on sale, or offered at a whopping discount to new. ?I¡¯ve been guilty of this myself. ?So you buy that super screaming deal of a panel raising cutter, then once you use it you discover it doesn¡¯t have the profile shape you want, or is too large to go down into the shaper cavity below the cast iron top like you thought. ? Research what fits your machine, and buy what you know you need and will meet all the needs of your project and fit the machine.
Rangate¡¯s Cutter Share program is a terrific way to test out shaper tooling. ? You can rent most of their standard cutters for a few months for a project, then if you decide you need to own it, you can buy that set at a discount.?
My very strong encouragement is to let your projects drive your cutter purchases, and resist the temptation to buy a bunch of tooling on a prospective basis. ?
David Best - Sent from my iPad
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On Feb 11, 2020, at 6:01 PM, imranindiana via Groups.Io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? David,
I do not have a spiral head like you describe. Just a question, does it have nickers top and bottom to do clean rebates like a rebate head. If not how do you rate rebate quality compared to a rebate head with nickers - I assume you have one.
Imran On Feb 12, 2020, at 3:00 AM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
? In general, the most used cutter by my colleagues and me, is a spiral cutter between 80-125mm diameter, and 60-100mm tall. The exact size depends on your machine¡¯s capacity to tilt the cutter through a full 45 degrees.?
This cutter can rebate timber, on the top or bottom, forward or backward, very cleanly, and at a myriad of sizes. You can put an angle on the edge of a piece of timber. You can chamfer edges at basically any size. You can even ¡°raise¡± a panel by rebating the front to fit into a table-saw-made groove and complete cabinet work.?
Many places make a cutter like I¡¯ve described above, including Hammer, Felder, Rangate, etc. I have a 125mm dia. Spiral cutter from Leitz. I love it and use it all the time.? And your second cutter should be an adjustable groover, unless you have the dado set? On 12 Feb 2020, at 7:50 am, robsimmons67 via Groups.Io <robsimmons67@...> wrote:
?So after getting my C3-41 I am not sure what a good first but would to get. I do have a router table but I do want to use the shaper. Any advice on what a good bit or two to get? Just have no idea where to start.?
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You likely have contacted Mary Wu (the is a form to fill at the OAV website); did she send the drawing? I believe OAV means Overall and Advanced Vigor
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I debated? getting? a Ron fu? for a long time and rejected it
eventually.? I wanted the rigidity of a full size mill.
Depending on what your application is you may not need to spend the
money on a restored unit? though the Seven Gees I saw on that Ohio site
looks pretty good.
I might have gone that route? but I ended up getting one made in 1982
with almost zero hours? the frosting is still fresh.
I have a AngleLock type Vice from Precision Mathews.? It is as well made
as any of the? Kurt? Vices I used in my decades in machine shops.
I may also get their dividing head.
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Re: Good first shaper bit
Hi Imran.?
It has nickers top and bottom. I have a lot of cutters and use a lot of them. But this cutter is my most used. Cheers.?
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On 12 Feb 2020, at 12:01 pm, Imran Malik <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? David,
I do not have a spiral head like you describe. Just a question, does it have nickers top and bottom to do clean rebates like a rebate head. If not how do you rate rebate quality compared to a rebate head with nickers - I assume you have one.
Imran On Feb 12, 2020, at 3:00 AM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
? In general, the most used cutter by my colleagues and me, is a spiral cutter between 80-125mm diameter, and 60-100mm tall. The exact size depends on your machine¡¯s capacity to tilt the cutter through a full 45 degrees.?
This cutter can rebate timber, on the top or bottom, forward or backward, very cleanly, and at a myriad of sizes. You can put an angle on the edge of a piece of timber. You can chamfer edges at basically any size. You can even ¡°raise¡± a panel by rebating the front to fit into a table-saw-made groove and complete cabinet work.?
Many places make a cutter like I¡¯ve described above, including Hammer, Felder, Rangate, etc. I have a 125mm dia. Spiral cutter from Leitz. I love it and use it all the time.? And your second cutter should be an adjustable groover, unless you have the dado set? On 12 Feb 2020, at 7:50 am, robsimmons67 via Groups.Io <robsimmons67@...> wrote:
?So after getting my C3-41 I am not sure what a good first but would to get. I do have a router table but I do want to use the shaper. Any advice on what a good bit or two to get? Just have no idea where to start.?
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Thanks David for the write-up.? I enjoyed reading it.? I am saving for a PM-833T, but now PM has a TV version.? Could you comment on why get the gear drive vs. the belt drive?
SW
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Sang Luu,
It may be worth your while to check on ocean freight. You likely will not get much discount on air freight for multiple units but you may on ocean freight.
Imran? On Feb 11, 2020, at 11:14 PM, Sang Luu <sangluu@...> wrote:
?Quick update:?
I received the initial single quantity quote yesterday. The good news -- it is indeed $300 but the entire unit, which includes the crating/palette, weighs something like 77kgs! As a result, the freight itself is very high - they quoted $670 to my part of the country, using air freight -- which is the bad news. I'm not a shipping/logistics expert but the use of ocean freight for a small less than container load would be even more expensive, so they recommended using air freight. This brings the total to just shy of $1000, which is high in my opinion.?I collected our interest and replied back asking for a consolidated quote for 4 sets combined into one palette, so in theory that could shave off some cost. Once I receive the updated numbers, I will share.
I wasn't expecting to organize a group buy and because of the weight, I think it would present some cost challenges for folks not close to the SF Bay Area and logistics challenges in terms of distribution. So at this point, it's not looking great given we all wanted to "experiment" with a low cost option.?
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Re: Good first shaper bit
David,
I do not have a spiral head like you describe. Just a question, does it have nickers top and bottom to do clean rebates like a rebate head. If not how do you rate rebate quality compared to a rebate head with nickers - I assume you have one.
Imran On Feb 12, 2020, at 3:00 AM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
? In general, the most used cutter by my colleagues and me, is a spiral cutter between 80-125mm diameter, and 60-100mm tall. The exact size depends on your machine¡¯s capacity to tilt the cutter through a full 45 degrees.?
This cutter can rebate timber, on the top or bottom, forward or backward, very cleanly, and at a myriad of sizes. You can put an angle on the edge of a piece of timber. You can chamfer edges at basically any size. You can even ¡°raise¡± a panel by rebating the front to fit into a table-saw-made groove and complete cabinet work.?
Many places make a cutter like I¡¯ve described above, including Hammer, Felder, Rangate, etc. I have a 125mm dia. Spiral cutter from Leitz. I love it and use it all the time.? And your second cutter should be an adjustable groover, unless you have the dado set? On 12 Feb 2020, at 7:50 am, robsimmons67 via Groups.Io <robsimmons67@...> wrote:
?So after getting my C3-41 I am not sure what a good first but would to get. I do have a router table but I do want to use the shaper. Any advice on what a good bit or two to get? Just have no idea where to start.?
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Regarding the Harvey S-12 Blade Guard, if that Harvey is the same as this Harvey,? the company that bought out Bridge City Tool Works, contact Jack Xu, Harvey Owner at:
Our new corporate office location is:
Bridge City Tool Works
Harvey Industries International DBA Harvey Industries
10830 Ada Ave.
Montclair, CA 91763
(800) 253-3332
Our manufacturing facility is located in Nanjing, China.
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Re: Good first shaper bit
Do you have a feeder?? That would be one my first purchases.? Dave
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You might also consider the universal set with interchangeable knives.? I have an extra set for a 30mm spindle.
?
?
Jon S
?
?
So after getting my C3-41 I am not sure what a good first but would to get. I do have a router table but I do want to use the shaper. Any advice on what a good bit or two to get? Just have no idea where to start.?
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Re: Good first shaper bit
You might also consider the universal set with interchangeable knives.? I have an extra set for a 30mm spindle. ? 
? Jon S ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of robsimmons67 via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2020 1:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [FOG] Good first shaper bit? So after getting my C3-41 I am not sure what a good first but would to get. I do have a router table but I do want to use the shaper. Any advice on what a good bit or two to get? Just have no idea where to start.?
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Re: Good first shaper bit
The spiral cutter is a good suggestion with a bearing for doing template work as well as everything Lucky suggested. I use that bit for flush cutting templates quite often. Rangate has a smaller diameter which can help get in tighter and is very nice.
Depending on what you do, a HSS insert cutterhead can take you easily to a huge variety of cutting ability. Rangate has? Klein, CMT, Freud, and Amana all make them as well and there is a large catalog of inserts and the ability to get custom ground knives too. This would be my first pick for a general purpose shop with an alternate ability to do dados. It will get you to a very inexpensive versatile system that you can start using the shaper's abilities.
If you are a business and short run cabinet doors are a part of it, the Rangate cabinet door cutter is very versatile with its insert knife system. If you don't, probably not worth the investment and a dedicated profile set can be had for a fraction of the cost, or even perhaps an insert knife for the HSS insert cutterhead.?
I use a dado head for most of my grooving but if I was doing more furniture instead of casework groovers would be good to have. Also, they would be more important if I didn't have a combo machine and had a separate shaper.?There is a very versatile multiuse set from rangate that covers a lot of the bases including serving as a groover.
Any other heads would be dependent on what you do and how often you do it.
Michael Tagge
Built Custom Carpentry
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Re: Good first shaper bit
In general, the most used cutter by my colleagues and me, is a spiral cutter between 80-125mm diameter, and 60-100mm tall. The exact size depends on your machine¡¯s capacity to tilt the cutter through a full 45 degrees.?
This cutter can rebate timber, on the top or bottom, forward or backward, very cleanly, and at a myriad of sizes. You can put an angle on the edge of a piece of timber. You can chamfer edges at basically any size. You can even ¡°raise¡± a panel by rebating the front to fit into a table-saw-made groove and complete cabinet work.?
Many places make a cutter like I¡¯ve described above, including Hammer, Felder, Rangate, etc. I have a 125mm dia. Spiral cutter from Leitz. I love it and use it all the time.? And your second cutter should be an adjustable groover, unless you have the dado set?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 12 Feb 2020, at 7:50 am, robsimmons67 via Groups.Io <robsimmons67@...> wrote:
?So after getting my C3-41 I am not sure what a good first but would to get. I do have a router table but I do want to use the shaper. Any advice on what a good bit or two to get? Just have no idea where to start.?
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So after getting my C3-41 I am not sure what a good first but would to get. I do have a router table but I do want to use the shaper. Any advice on what a good bit or two to get? Just have no idea where to start.?
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Just checked?Scott&Sargent -- it just so happens the shipping cost to me, along with the guard comes in at exactly $1,005.08? --? ?:) The guard looks to be of the same type of build, from the video found their slider product page.?
This got me searching....Grizzly imports Asian sliders too and I found the same exact assembly on one of their sliders here page 97:
I called them; it's priced at $1113 + $24 shipping (ha!) = $1137?
£þ°À³å(¥Ä)³å/£þ
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Bill Belanger
David P. Best
David Luckensmeyer
imran
Jonathan Smith
Sang Luu