Re: Power feeder mount Hammer C3-31
Hi Trevor
41 kgs ? ?Huh….lightweight ;-). ?Mine is too heavy at 71kg TBH. ?I must have missed yours when I was looking to get one as IIRC I couldn’t find the reach of those available at the time on the Hammer catalogue. ?Or maybe it was the eye-watering price ? ?Hence going for the beast that I have because, like you, I thought that it would be good to get one that would cover off all three functions. ? But I’ve tried ripping a few times and ….? ?Well maybe your timber is better than mine but I soon came to the conclusion that out of all three functions, the table saw is the one that you listen to as it’s cutting, easing off when you need to. ?When you use a power feeder, you don’t get that option of ‘finesse’ as it were. ?It’ll just try and bash it through…come what may.
Even so, do you not find that that central pillar wanders about ?
Lastly, how many Weetabix do you have for your breakfast ?
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Hi Marshall,
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I have a C3-31 with a S308 power feed (part no 05.3.011) it mounts on a tilting bracket (part no 503-127) the feeder works both on a flat and horizontal axis.
It is really very heavy. The bracket mounting is different than used on the saw range (no photograph in the old catalogue) and at first appears that ?the single bolt securing mechanism is too light for the mass of the feeder.
There is a learning curve.
1. keep your legs and feet out of the way ?when lowering and raising.
2. Wind the motor as far forward as possible before you tilt it. The pivot arc is then controllable as it lowers.
3. Loosen all the adjusting levers just as you lower it onto the saw bench and it will level and square itself properly, then tighten everything up and you are good to go.
4. Toe the front in very slightly for best running results especially with the shaper.
5. Do a few dry runs with whatever option of the machine you want to use. Then you are ready to go.
6. Approximately ?6 inches is the widest board that you can rip when the feeder is mounted.
It is invaluable with the shaper and works well with both jointer and saw. It cost 1k Euros in 2018.
I was very sceptical at first due to the weight ?and found it very hard to set up, now I wouldn't be without it, and always look for ways to use it, as even ripping rough stock it is less tiring, safer, and you get a more consistent finish?
Trevor Lusty
Ireland
?
|
My upgrade from 37" to 43" sander also required a new collector. The 37" was on a 3hp Oneida, right next to it actually and it handled it pretty well. The new sander just buried?it.?
I just saw a 2 head Kundig on one of the auction sites. I tried to get one when I was upgrading, but kept running into people with deeper pockets. I'm quite happy with the SCM Sandya 10 though.
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
I loved the Smart collector that was here for a while. I'd like to see them size it up for shops like mine in the 15-20hp range. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
I think my dust collector warms up the shop more than my machines but it sure is nice in the winter.? I air condition the garage too but only run a 240pint a day dehumidifier in the storage building.? I hate humidity more every year.? Dave
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My other consideration is heat.? I run the AC and keep the shop at 80 in the summer.? Every watt consumed in the shop turns into heat.? And if my engineering memory is
correct, due to inefficiencies, it takes 3 watts of input to an air conditioner to remove 1 watt of heat.? So running 10HP for all machines would dump a lot of heat into the shop.? We initially sized the HVAC to handle 40HP of sander and 10HP of dust collection
running up to 4 hours a day and being able to keep cool even when 115 outside, ?was going to take 10 tons of AC.? We ended up relaxing to few hours and only assuming 110 F outside and I could get away with 5 tons of cooling.
?
?
I've been watching for a Kundig for you but few on the market.? DC for a WB takes up a lot of room.? I run a used Coral I found for $800 and added four AFF bags, 8' tall.? 7.5 hp? motor and works will with the 43"
dual drum and my big old machines in storage building, other than hauling heavy hoses around.? My ceiling height in garage shop is 11' so my blower and motor sit in the attic.? Cincinnati RBE 9 with four Wynn filters. ? I agree with Jason, the filters are
not the easiest to clean but I don't run the 25" WB much.
The gray AEM were also a nice sander but they usually need more power than I have.? The SCM two head shares a 30 hp motor.? Good on amps but not ideal.? I run 120-180 and if I need something more coarse I take out
the platen on the second head and leave the settings of the two drums alone.? It is finicky work aligning both heads on a manual unit.? Dave
I currently have a franken system Oneida, upgraded a couple times over the years.? Same parts as the 5HP Smart CNC (high pressure) with dual big HEPA filters.? Runs great
but if I get a big wide belt I may need more collector.? If I do I would end up with a new cyclone and fan and my own VFD setup.? So many used 43” wide belt sanders but few 37”.? I could run a 37” easily, maybe a two head 37” but not sure about a 43”.? Sadly
I don’t have enough ceiling height were my current cyclone sits to go bigger and move the collector and a bunch of duct is unappealing.
?
?
Joe, we are one the same page.? My comment wasn't for the pro designers but for the guy doing it himself.? I've had people send me calcs comparing 6,7,8" at the same fpm rather than the same cfm. ? I do think CV was
a factor in helping Oneida step up their game and add some design changes to the cyclone and offer more choices for the larger machine hobby types.? I still think CV should step up into that market a little more.? Bill started his design as a low cost alternative
using PVC 6" and a lower cost cyclone and motor combo.? He realized that 3 hp was too little but didn't think a full 5 hp was necessary for the type of system he was developing, it just was the next size motor available.? That need? came with the Max. ? It
was a a real benefit for those running 4" mains and flex but?? I'm assuming the Felder and MM guys are running larger equipment than most home shop guys so they can benefit from additional capacity.?
I'm a fan of the Smart System and think it is under marketed as the system with the most range for the 3-5 hp class of systems.? Dave
David, calculating the total resistance is what Bill's spreadsheet does.? It's what pros do too.? Total length of duct and diameter, angles, flex, transitions, etc.? The right design balances factors.? ?I am not a fan of the clearview but I understand his cyclone
is more efficient than Oneida's.? the bigger duct for home shops became internet gospel when people were running 4" everywhere.? 4" resistance per ft is way higher than 6".
|
My other consideration is heat.? I run the AC and keep the shop at 80 in the summer.? Every watt consumed in the shop turns into heat.? And if my engineering
memory is correct, due to inefficiencies, it takes 3 watts of input to an air conditioner to remove 1 watt of heat.? So running 10HP for all machines would dump a lot of heat into the shop.? We initially sized the HVAC to handle 40HP of sander and 10HP of
dust collection running up to 4 hours a day and being able to keep cool even when 115 outside, ?was going to take 10 tons of AC.? We ended up relaxing to few hours and only assuming 110 F outside and I could get away with 5 tons of cooling.
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of David Kumm
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2021 1:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Clamp-Together pipe for dust collection #dustcollection
?
I've been watching for a Kundig for you but few on the market.? DC for a WB takes up a lot of room.? I run a used Coral I found for $800 and added four AFF bags, 8' tall.? 7.5 hp? motor and works
will with the 43" dual drum and my big old machines in storage building, other than hauling heavy hoses around.? My ceiling height in garage shop is 11' so my blower and motor sit in the attic.? Cincinnati RBE 9 with four Wynn filters. ? I agree with Jason,
the filters are not the easiest to clean but I don't run the 25" WB much.
The gray AEM were also a nice sander but they usually need more power than I have.? The SCM two head shares a 30 hp motor.? Good on amps but not ideal.? I run 120-180 and if I need something more
coarse I take out the platen on the second head and leave the settings of the two drums alone.? It is finicky work aligning both heads on a manual unit.? Dave
I currently have a franken system Oneida, upgraded a couple times over the years.? Same parts as the 5HP Smart CNC (high pressure) with dual big HEPA
filters.? Runs great but if I get a big wide belt I may need more collector.? If I do I would end up with a new cyclone and fan and my own VFD setup.? So many used 43” wide belt sanders but few 37”.? I could run a 37” easily, maybe a two head 37” but not sure
about a 43”.? Sadly I don’t have enough ceiling height were my current cyclone sits to go bigger and move the collector and a bunch of duct is unappealing.
?
?
Joe, we are one the same page.? My comment wasn't for the pro designers but for the guy doing it himself.? I've had people send me calcs comparing 6,7,8" at the same fpm rather than the same cfm.
? I do think CV was a factor in helping Oneida step up their game and add some design changes to the cyclone and offer more choices for the larger machine hobby types.? I still think CV should step up into that market a little more.? Bill started his design
as a low cost alternative using PVC 6" and a lower cost cyclone and motor combo.? He realized that 3 hp was too little but didn't think a full 5 hp was necessary for the type of system he was developing, it just was the next size motor available.? That need?
came with the Max. ? It was a a real benefit for those running 4" mains and flex but?? I'm assuming the Felder and MM guys are running larger equipment than most home shop guys so they can benefit from additional capacity.?
I'm a fan of the Smart System and think it is under marketed as the system with the most range for the 3-5 hp class of systems.? Dave
David, calculating the total resistance is what Bill's spreadsheet does.? It's what pros do too.? Total length of duct and diameter, angles, flex, transitions, etc.? The right design balances factors.? ?I am not a fan of the clearview
but I understand his cyclone is more efficient than Oneida's.? the bigger duct for home shops became internet gospel when people were running 4" everywhere.? 4" resistance per ft is way higher than 6".
|
Re: Power feeder mount Hammer C3-31
Hi Marshall,
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I have a C3-31 with a S308 power feed (part no 05.3.011) it mounts on a tilting bracket (part no 503-127) the feeder works both on a flat and horizontal axis.
It is really very heavy. The bracket mounting is different than used on the saw range (no photograph in the old catalogue) and at first appears that ?the single bolt securing mechanism is too light for the mass of the feeder.
There is a learning curve.
1. keep your legs and feet out of the way ?when lowering and raising.
2. Wind the motor as far forward as possible before you tilt it. The pivot arc is then controllable as it lowers.
3. Loosen all the adjusting levers just as you lower it onto the saw bench and it will level and square itself properly, then tighten everything up and you are good to go.
4. Toe the front in very slightly for best running results especially with the shaper.
5. Do a few dry runs with whatever option of the machine you want to use. Then you are ready to go.
6. Approximately ?6 inches is the widest board that you can rip when the feeder is mounted.
It is invaluable with the shaper and works well with both jointer and saw. It cost 1k Euros in 2018.
I was very sceptical at first due to the weight ?and found it very hard to set up, now I wouldn't be without it, and always look for ways to use it, as even ripping rough stock it is less tiring, safer, and you get a more consistent finish?
Trevor Lusty
Ireland
?
|
I've been watching for a Kundig for you but few on the market.? DC for a WB takes up a lot of room.? I run a used Coral I found for $800 and added four AFF bags, 8' tall.? 7.5 hp? motor and works will with the 43" dual drum and my big old machines in storage
building, other than hauling heavy hoses around.? My ceiling height in garage shop is 11' so my blower and motor sit in the attic.? Cincinnati RBE 9 with four Wynn filters. ? I agree with Jason, the filters are not the easiest to clean but I don't run the
25" WB much.
The gray AEM were also a nice sander but they usually need more power than I have.? The SCM two head shares a 30 hp motor.? Good on amps but not ideal.? I run 120-180 and if I need something more coarse I take out the platen on the second head and leave the
settings of the two drums alone.? It is finicky work aligning both heads on a manual unit.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I currently have a franken system Oneida, upgraded a couple times over the years.? Same parts as the 5HP Smart CNC (high pressure) with dual big HEPA filters.? Runs great
but if I get a big wide belt I may need more collector.? If I do I would end up with a new cyclone and fan and my own VFD setup.? So many used 43” wide belt sanders but few 37”.? I could run a 37” easily, maybe a two head 37” but not sure about a 43”.? Sadly
I don’t have enough ceiling height were my current cyclone sits to go bigger and move the collector and a bunch of duct is unappealing.
?
?
Joe, we are one the same page.? My comment wasn't for the pro designers but for the guy doing it himself.? I've had people send me calcs comparing 6,7,8" at the same fpm rather than the same cfm. ? I do think CV was
a factor in helping Oneida step up their game and add some design changes to the cyclone and offer more choices for the larger machine hobby types.? I still think CV should step up into that market a little more.? Bill started his design as a low cost alternative
using PVC 6" and a lower cost cyclone and motor combo.? He realized that 3 hp was too little but didn't think a full 5 hp was necessary for the type of system he was developing, it just was the next size motor available.? That need? came with the Max. ? It
was a a real benefit for those running 4" mains and flex but?? I'm assuming the Felder and MM guys are running larger equipment than most home shop guys so they can benefit from additional capacity.?
I'm a fan of the Smart System and think it is under marketed as the system with the most range for the 3-5 hp class of systems.? Dave
David, calculating the total resistance is what Bill's spreadsheet does.? It's what pros do too.? Total length of duct and diameter, angles, flex, transitions, etc.? The right design balances factors.? ?I am not a fan of the clearview but I understand his cyclone
is more efficient than Oneida's.? the bigger duct for home shops became internet gospel when people were running 4" everywhere.? 4" resistance per ft is way higher than 6".
|
I should have paid them to design.? I have like $1000 of Nordfab parts I don’t need given my poor planning
?
?
Seriously, I think it’s money well spent.
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Bird Cupps
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2021 12:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Clamp-Together pipe for dust collection #dustcollection
?
Oneida quoted me $200.
On Jan 19, 2021, at 12:26 PM, David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
?
Joe, we are one the same page.? My comment wasn't for the pro designers but for the guy doing it himself.? I've had people send me calcs comparing 6,7,8" at the same fpm rather than the same cfm. ? I do think
CV was a factor in helping Oneida step up their game and add some design changes to the cyclone and offer more choices for the larger machine hobby types.? I still think CV should step up into that market a little more.? Bill started his design as a low cost
alternative using PVC 6" and a lower cost cyclone and motor combo.? He realized that 3 hp was too little but didn't think a full 5 hp was necessary for the type of system he was developing, it just was the next size motor available.? That need? came with the
Max. ? It was a a real benefit for those running 4" mains and flex but?? I'm assuming the Felder and MM guys are running larger equipment than most home shop guys so they can benefit from additional capacity.??
I'm a fan of the Smart System and think it is under marketed as the system with the most range for the 3-5 hp class of systems.? Dave
David, calculating the total resistance is what Bill's spreadsheet does.? It's what pros do too.? Total length of duct and diameter, angles, flex, transitions, etc.? The right
design balances factors.? ?I am not a fan of the clearview but I understand his cyclone is more efficient than Oneida's.? the bigger duct for home shops became internet gospel when people were running 4" everywhere.? 4" resistance per ft is way higher than
6".
?
|
I currently have a franken system Oneida, upgraded a couple times over the years.? Same parts as the 5HP Smart CNC (high pressure) with dual big HEPA
filters.? Runs great but if I get a big wide belt I may need more collector.? If I do I would end up with a new cyclone and fan and my own VFD setup.? So many used 43” wide belt sanders but few 37”.? I could run a 37” easily, maybe a two head 37” but not sure
about a 43”.? Sadly I don’t have enough ceiling height were my current cyclone sits to go bigger and move the collector and a bunch of duct is unappealing.
?
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Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of David Kumm
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2021 11:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Clamp-Together pipe for dust collection #dustcollection
?
Joe, we are one the same page.? My comment wasn't for the pro designers but for the guy doing it himself.? I've had people send me calcs comparing 6,7,8" at the same fpm rather than the same cfm.
? I do think CV was a factor in helping Oneida step up their game and add some design changes to the cyclone and offer more choices for the larger machine hobby types.? I still think CV should step up into that market a little more.? Bill started his design
as a low cost alternative using PVC 6" and a lower cost cyclone and motor combo.? He realized that 3 hp was too little but didn't think a full 5 hp was necessary for the type of system he was developing, it just was the next size motor available.? That need?
came with the Max. ? It was a a real benefit for those running 4" mains and flex but?? I'm assuming the Felder and MM guys are running larger equipment than most home shop guys so they can benefit from additional capacity.?
I'm a fan of the Smart System and think it is under marketed as the system with the most range for the 3-5 hp class of systems.? Dave
David, calculating the total resistance is what Bill's spreadsheet does.? It's what pros do too.? Total length of duct and diameter, angles, flex, transitions, etc.? The right design balances factors.? ?I am not a fan of the clearview but
I understand his cyclone is more efficient than Oneida's.? the bigger duct for home shops became internet gospel when people were running 4" everywhere.? 4" resistance per ft is way higher than 6".
|
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Show quoted text
On Jan 19, 2021, at 12:26 PM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Joe, we are one the same page.? My comment wasn't for the pro designers but for the guy doing it himself.? I've had people send me calcs comparing 6,7,8" at the same fpm rather than the same cfm. ? I do think CV was a factor in helping Oneida step up their game and add some design changes to the cyclone and offer more choices for the larger machine hobby types.? I still think CV should step up into that market a little more.? Bill started his design as a low cost alternative using PVC 6" and a lower cost cyclone and motor combo.? He realized that 3 hp was too little but didn't think a full 5 hp was necessary for the type of system he was developing, it just was the next size motor available.? That need? came with the Max. ? It was a a real benefit for those running 4" mains and flex but?? I'm assuming the Felder and MM guys are running larger equipment than most home shop guys so they can benefit from additional capacity.??
I'm a fan of the Smart System and think it is under marketed as the system with the most range for the 3-5 hp class of systems.? Dave
David, calculating the total resistance is what Bill's spreadsheet does.? It's what pros do too.? Total length of duct and diameter, angles, flex, transitions, etc.? The right design balances factors.? ?I am not a fan of the clearview but I understand his cyclone is more efficient than Oneida's.? the bigger duct for home shops became internet gospel when people were running 4" everywhere.? 4" resistance per ft is way higher than 6".
|
Joe, we are one the same page.? My comment wasn't for the pro designers but for the guy doing it himself.? I've had people send me calcs comparing 6,7,8" at the same fpm rather than the same cfm. ? I do think CV was a factor in helping Oneida step up their
game and add some design changes to the cyclone and offer more choices for the larger machine hobby types.? I still think CV should step up into that market a little more.? Bill started his design as a low cost alternative using PVC 6" and a lower cost cyclone
and motor combo.? He realized that 3 hp was too little but didn't think a full 5 hp was necessary for the type of system he was developing, it just was the next size motor available.? That need? came with the Max. ? It was a a real benefit for those running
4" mains and flex but?? I'm assuming the Felder and MM guys are running larger equipment than most home shop guys so they can benefit from additional capacity.?
I'm a fan of the Smart System and think it is under marketed as the system with the most range for the 3-5 hp class of systems.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
David, calculating the total resistance is what Bill's spreadsheet does.? It's what pros do too.? Total length of duct and diameter, angles, flex, transitions, etc.? The right design balances factors.? ?I am not a fan of the clearview but I understand
his cyclone is more efficient than Oneida's.? the bigger duct for home shops became internet gospel when people were running 4" everywhere.? 4" resistance per ft is way higher than 6".
|
David, calculating the total resistance is what Bill's spreadsheet does.? It's what pros do too.? Total length of duct and diameter, angles, flex, transitions, etc.? The right design balances factors.? ?I am not a fan of the clearview but I understand his cyclone is more efficient than Oneida's.? the bigger duct for home shops became internet gospel when people were running 4" everywhere.? 4" resistance per ft is way higher than 6".
|
Joe, sorry to remember wrong as you, not John has the Smart.? I would add that when calculating pressure of various size ducts and fittings, you must factor in the additional friction created by the increase in velocity created by the smaller duct.? I still
feel it is better to increase the flow by opening a second gate than reducing the diameter of the main.? While a 6" main will handle most machines, a larger jointer or planer may may need 800-1000 cfm and a shaper with two 5" ports can be over 1200.? Your
smart can probably pull that through a 6" pipe but a CV 1800 won't.? 7" is a pretty good main for a typical 5 hp 15" impeller system, 8" to the shaper or 24" planer and then reducing down might mean you leave the gate at the first machine a little open although
gates leak a fair amount anyway.? That is the call of the experts.?
Bill Pentz did some great work, particularly his cyclone and duct design.? In my talks with him a number of years ago, he wasn't designing for large 20+" machines, shapers or Wide belts.? I was hoping the new cyclone would be a little larger to handle the 8"
port.? Almost all commercial 5 hp systems run a 20" diameter.? The original CV was designed for the 6" main and modified for the 16" impeller.? I think a second size cyclone would be a benefit in the steel but know the cost is higher than the market CV sees
itself in.
I totally agree that someone who designs systems is worth the expense.? A person needs to make sure the machinery used now and what is expected in the future is accounted for.? Adding a great machine and having to redo the entire system is no fun.? Don't ask
how I know that.? Dave
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Please either have your duct supplier design the duct sizing or get familiar with the Bill Pentz spreadsheet and design yourself.? Big mains will enable higher CFM only
if the port at the machine (the smallest opening the air flows through) is about the same cross sectional area.
?
Simple mental experiment.? You have a garden hose bib with say 60 psi of city water pressure.? The 60 psi is like the pressure measurement of a dust collector stated in
inches water gauge.? There is also a metric equivalent.? You open the hose bib a little (like a small port) and you get water flowing at some gallon per minute rate. This would be like CFM in dust collection.? Now if you put a bigger water pipe behind the
hose bib but you didn’t open the bib any further you would get exactly the same gallons per minute.? You could put a 12” water line behind the hose bib and not get any more water at that setting.? If you want more gallons per minute you have to open the hose
bib up.? Or you could increase the pressure in the water line.? The engineering field is called fluid dynamics and that science tells you that to double the gallons per minute you need to increase the pressure by 4X.? So to double the gallons per minute you
would need 240 psi of water pressure, or you could open the hose bib a little further.
?
My Felder KF700SP has about a 5” port on the side of the machine but inside it’s connected to a 4” flex hose and they connects to a port under the blade that’s equivalent
to about a 3” diameter duct.? That 3” diameter is like the hose bib.? When does a large main help, it’s necessary when you are using multiple machines at one time or when you have a machine that has really big ports.? On your table saw with a typical collector
you will be lucky to pull 400 cfm.? Doesn’t matter if you have a 5” duct, 6” duct, 8” duct or 20” duct.? The suction pressure will determine how much air moves through that port.? But if the main is really big and you have small effective ports, the velocity
of the air in the main will be low and if too low, dust will settle in the main.
?
Big mains for a one person shop are usually a mistake.
?
I use an Oneida Smart collector that varies the pressure to maximize CFM.? More pressure is the only way to get more cfm through a small port.? My collector has a 7” inlet
and I ram 7” main to the planer and drum sander and then 6” everywhere else.? If you have a professional design the layout (free from must duct sellers) or like $100 from Oneida if you don’t buy duct from them, they will use software tools to optimize all
the parameters.
?
The think for people on maximizing duct diameter is to minimize friction from the air flowing. Friction is real but because the smallest passage for air is the main factor
in overall resistance, the big duct doesn’t help much.
?
With Bill Pentz’s spreadsheet you can model sample duct runs and play with changing duct sizes to see the impact.? It also flags when velocity is too low.
?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of
Acharya Kumarnathaswami
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2021 12:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Clamp-Together pipe for dust collection #dustcollection
?
So, run 8" main line with 6" drops... . Then four or five inch flex hose to the machines (depending on machine ports I suppose). If I go with? automated gates, since don't have to be within reach (as they do if they are manually operated--which) the automated
gates could be on the 6 inch. Sound right??
This is one type of automated gate that I discovered:
iVac 4" Automated Blast Gate :
It is electric.
|
Please either have your duct supplier design the duct sizing or get familiar with the Bill Pentz spreadsheet and design yourself.? Big mains will enable
higher CFM only if the port at the machine (the smallest opening the air flows through) is about the same cross sectional area.
?
Simple mental experiment.? You have a garden hose bib with say 60 psi of city water pressure.? The 60 psi is like the pressure measurement of a dust
collector stated in inches water gauge.? There is also a metric equivalent.? You open the hose bib a little (like a small port) and you get water flowing at some gallon per minute rate. This would be like CFM in dust collection.? Now if you put a bigger water
pipe behind the hose bib but you didn’t open the bib any further you would get exactly the same gallons per minute.? You could put a 12” water line behind the hose bib and not get any more water at that setting.? If you want more gallons per minute you have
to open the hose bib up.? Or you could increase the pressure in the water line.? The engineering field is called fluid dynamics and that science tells you that to double the gallons per minute you need to increase the pressure by 4X.? So to double the gallons
per minute you would need 240 psi of water pressure, or you could open the hose bib a little further.
?
My Felder KF700SP has about a 5” port on the side of the machine but inside it’s connected to a 4” flex hose and they connects to a port under the blade
that’s equivalent to about a 3” diameter duct.? That 3” diameter is like the hose bib.? When does a large main help, it’s necessary when you are using multiple machines at one time or when you have a machine that has really big ports.? On your table saw with
a typical collector you will be lucky to pull 400 cfm.? Doesn’t matter if you have a 5” duct, 6” duct, 8” duct or 20” duct.? The suction pressure will determine how much air moves through that port.? But if the main is really big and you have small effective
ports, the velocity of the air in the main will be low and if too low, dust will settle in the main.
?
Big mains for a one person shop are usually a mistake.
?
I use an Oneida Smart collector that varies the pressure to maximize CFM.? More pressure is the only way to get more cfm through a small port.? My collector
has a 7” inlet and I ram 7” main to the planer and drum sander and then 6” everywhere else.? If you have a professional design the layout (free from must duct sellers) or like $100 from Oneida if you don’t buy duct from them, they will use software tools to
optimize all the parameters.
?
The think for people on maximizing duct diameter is to minimize friction from the air flowing. Friction is real but because the smallest passage for
air is the main factor in overall resistance, the big duct doesn’t help much.
?
With Bill Pentz’s spreadsheet you can model sample duct runs and play with changing duct sizes to see the impact.? It also flags when velocity is too
low.
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Acharya Kumarnathaswami
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2021 12:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Clamp-Together pipe for dust collection #dustcollection
?
So, run 8" main line with 6" drops... . Then four or five inch flex hose to the machines (depending on machine ports I suppose). If I go with? automated gates, since don't have to be within reach (as they do if they are manually operated--which)
the automated gates could be on the 6 inch. Sound right??
This is one type of automated gate that I discovered:
iVac 4" Automated Blast Gate :
It is electric.
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Re: Power feeder mount Hammer C3-31
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On Jan 19, 2021, at 10:30 AM, Marshall Snodgrass <mtsnodgrassdds@...> wrote: ? Thanks you, ?I did try going into different threads on the group site regarding hammer just nothing on power feeds. ?Thanks for your help
Marshall,
Do you know that you can search on groupio site?
I found this thread by typing “C3-31 Power Feeder”. I am sure there is more info available.
Hope this helps.
Imran ?I was told there was a not too distant thread regarding mounting a power feeder on a Hammer C 3-31. Can anyone help direct me to that source or provide suggestions
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Re: Power feeder mount Hammer C3-31
Thanks you, ?I did try going into different threads on the group site regarding hammer just nothing on power feeds. ?Thanks for your help
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Marshall,
Do you know that you can search on groupio site?
I found this thread by typing “C3-31 Power Feeder”. I am sure there is more info available.
Hope this helps.
Imran ?I was told there was a not too distant thread regarding mounting a power feeder on a Hammer C 3-31. Can anyone help direct me to that source or provide suggestions
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Re: Power feeder mount Hammer C3-31
Marshall,
Do you know that you can search on groupio site?
I found this thread by typing “C3-31 Power Feeder”. I am sure there is more info available.
Hope this helps.
Imran
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On Jan 19, 2021, at 9:02 AM, Marshall Snodgrass <mtsnodgrassdds@...> wrote: ?I was told there was a not too distant thread regarding mounting a power feeder on a Hammer C 3-31. Can anyone help direct me to that source or provide suggestions
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Bird, that info will be helpful.? I have found that? whatever the recommended cfm for various machines are recommended, add 25%.? Restrictions internally in the machine can reduce the cfm measured at the port so build in some capacity.? I know my T130 shaper
needs 1800-2000 cfm and my edge sander needs more than I can get.? My 20" SAC is much more efficient at DC than my 24" Oliver was.? Dave
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I found this:
I think this might do the trick for me.
On Jan 18, 2021, at 11:10 PM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
I think that generally the 4000 fpm is vertical speed and 3500 is horiizontal.? Another key is to generate the proper velocity into the cyclone inlet to maximize the separation and protect the filters.? Each cyclone has a range for inlet speed that should be
designed into the system.
The Oneida system that is interesting is the smart system which speeds up the impeller to produce more air under pressure.? I think John here has one.? Oneida uses a good quality Baldor motor with a larger frame than CV but their regular 5 hp systems run a
15" impeller similar to the CV 1800.? The Max boosts that with a 16" impeller.? I don't know if CV went to a larger frame motor on their metal cyclone.? The weight of the motor on their 1800 and max was a limiting factor and why they went with a smaller frame.?
A DC motor works hard and given a choice, I'd prefer the larger bearings and shaft but then I like the CV cyclone design better than oneidas. Oneida uses a cast AL impeller, CV uses steel.? Filters are also rated for cfm per sq ft so you need to pay attention
to that.? CFM at the pressure your system runs at is what I consider most important.? Filtration quality of spun bond, Nano, or HEPA differs but it is the air that doesn't make it to the filters that hurts you.? The filters that minimize pressure drop and
maximize cfm beat filters that are a point or two higher in MERV rating IMO.??
Most important, don't take my opinion, do your own research.
Dave
Bird,
The risk of going too big is drop in air speed required to carry chips. IIRC, 4000 ft/min is the goal for the main duct.
So in designing the DC system one is trying to minimize the overall resistance so that adequate CFM is available at the machine while ensuring that the air speed does not drop below minimum requirement.
Imran
On Jan 18, 2021, at 10:32 PM, Bird Cupps < birdc@...> wrote:
?
On the subject of dust collecting, I have quite a bit of 4’’ spiral pipe if anyone is interested. If I remember right, Archarya is in Hawaii, so that’s probably not going to work to get it to him.
Is there any harm in sizing up ducts even if you don’t need it? I did some calculating and figured I needed a 6’’ line but I have 7’’ and 8’’ pipe on hand so figured I’d use that. I picked up a dust gorilla cyclone at an auction and it has an 8’’ entry, so
I need to get to 8’’ at some point.
Bird Cupps
Mount Horeb, Wisconsin
I have been extremely happy with my Ecogate blast gates and controller. ?Info here: ?
David Best - Sent from my iPad
On Jan 18, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Acharya Kumarnathaswami <kumar@...> wrote:
?Thank you for that, Dave. I'm glad you jumped in. The CVMAX looks more like what folks here had described earlier, with the 8" main line and 6" drops. Somehow I had gotten off track.?
A related issue I'm wondering about is automated blast gates, whether they are worth the expense and all, and whether a gate is needed on every machine.
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took a quick look. looks good.
Imran
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On Jan 19, 2021, at 9:44 AM, Bird Cupps <birdc@...> wrote: ? I found this:
I think this might do the trick for me. On Jan 18, 2021, at 11:10 PM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
I think that generally the 4000 fpm is vertical speed and 3500 is horiizontal.? Another key is to generate the proper velocity into the cyclone inlet to maximize the separation and protect the filters.? Each cyclone has a range for inlet speed that should be designed into the system.
The Oneida system that is interesting is the smart system which speeds up the impeller to produce more air under pressure.? I think John here has one.? Oneida uses a good quality Baldor motor with a larger frame than CV but their regular 5 hp systems run a 15" impeller similar to the CV 1800.? The Max boosts that with a 16" impeller.? I don't know if CV went to a larger frame motor on their metal cyclone.? The weight of the motor on their 1800 and max was a limiting factor and why they went with a smaller frame.? A DC motor works hard and given a choice, I'd prefer the larger bearings and shaft but then I like the CV cyclone design better than oneidas. Oneida uses a cast AL impeller, CV uses steel.? Filters are also rated for cfm per sq ft so you need to pay attention to that.? CFM at the pressure your system runs at is what I consider most important.? Filtration quality of spun bond, Nano, or HEPA differs but it is the air that doesn't make it to the filters that hurts you.? The filters that minimize pressure drop and maximize cfm beat filters that are a point or two higher in MERV rating IMO.??
Most important, don't take my opinion, do your own research.
Dave
Bird,
The risk of going too big is drop in air speed required to carry chips. IIRC, 4000 ft/min is the goal for the main duct.
So in designing the DC system one is trying to minimize the overall resistance so that adequate CFM is available at the machine while ensuring that the air speed does not drop below minimum requirement.
Imran On Jan 18, 2021, at 10:32 PM, Bird Cupps < birdc@...> wrote: ? On the subject of dust collecting, I have quite a bit of 4’’ spiral pipe if anyone is interested. If I remember right, Archarya is in Hawaii, so that’s probably not going to work to get it to him.
Is there any harm in sizing up ducts even if you don’t need it? I did some calculating and figured I needed a 6’’ line but I have 7’’ and 8’’ pipe on hand so figured I’d use that. I picked up a dust gorilla cyclone at an auction and it has an 8’’ entry, so I need to get to 8’’ at some point.
Bird Cupps Mount Horeb, Wisconsin
I have been extremely happy with my Ecogate blast gates and controller. ?Info here: ? David Best - Sent from my iPad On Jan 18, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Acharya Kumarnathaswami <kumar@...> wrote:
?Thank you for that, Dave. I'm glad you jumped in. The CVMAX looks more like what folks here had described earlier, with the 8" main line and 6" drops. Somehow I had gotten off track.?
A related issue I'm wondering about is automated blast gates, whether they are worth the expense and all, and whether a gate is needed on every machine.
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Re: Sharpening tablesaw blades
I have great experiences with Quinn as well.? They sharpened a wide variety of blades for me from Lamello blades to Festool blades with variable spacing to my Forrest, Felder and Morse metal blades, even replacing a couple of teeth.? Super friendly if you have questions, fast turnaround and good pricing.? I am certainly going to send them my Tenryu once it needs sharpening.?
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Jason Holtz
Joe Jensen
imran