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Michael,
It¡¯s already in my store on CafePress: ?
If you want a thong version, let me know and I¡¯ll add it to the shop.
<Do You.jpg>
On Feb 13, 2022, at 9:16 AM, Michael Garrison Stuber < mtgstuber@...> wrote:
I feel like we need some new Felder Swag: "It's 11 o'clock . . . do you know where your dial indicator is?"
Same here.
<screenshot_5462.jpg>
On Feb 13, 2022, at 8:14 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...>
wrote:
I
keep a dial indicator on a stand handy at all times,
sits on top of one of my roll aways. Setting the fence
to the blade is always going to give you some error,
unless your set up tool allows for the toe out of the
blade. You need to set fences, straight or angled to the
axis of movement of the slider.
Brian,
I definitely do not want
to bring a dial indicator out every time I
need to set to 45. Yes, my statement was not
the best but I had mentioned earlier that I
want something quick and to me referencing
blade and fence is the quickest method. I did
not mean to imply that it is the only method.
Imran
On Feb 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...>
wrote:
?
Your statement makes no sense. You use the
square to set the angle of the fence, using a
dial indicator on a stand to indicate the one
edge. The blade has nothing to do with it.
Once the fence is at 45? accurately, you can
cut anything you want.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Michael,
It¡¯s already in my store on CafePress: ?
If you want a thong version, let me know and I¡¯ll add it to the shop.
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 13, 2022, at 9:16 AM, Michael Garrison Stuber < mtgstuber@...> wrote:
I feel like we need some new Felder Swag: "It's 11 o'clock . . . do you know where your dial indicator is?"
Same here.
<screenshot_5462.jpg>
On Feb 13, 2022, at 8:14 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...>
wrote:
I
keep a dial indicator on a stand handy at all times,
sits on top of one of my roll aways. Setting the fence
to the blade is always going to give you some error,
unless your set up tool allows for the toe out of the
blade. You need to set fences, straight or angled to the
axis of movement of the slider.
Brian,
I definitely do not want
to bring a dial indicator out every time I
need to set to 45. Yes, my statement was not
the best but I had mentioned earlier that I
want something quick and to me referencing
blade and fence is the quickest method. I did
not mean to imply that it is the only method.
Imran
On Feb 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...>
wrote:
?
Your statement makes no sense. You use the
square to set the angle of the fence, using a
dial indicator on a stand to indicate the one
edge. The blade has nothing to do with it.
Once the fence is at 45? accurately, you can
cut anything you want.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Re: K 700 S, Did Felder cheap out on the rip fence?
I have one on my bandsaw and it¡¯s great! Of course it reads minus in this situation but its very easy to zero to make an adjustment.
Bill Belanger 
How good are the aftermarket DRO? It looks like a Wixey is $120 for a fence.
The Wixey I put on my thicknesses is pretty accurate.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Not a Felder Owner yet - expecting K700S in February and A941 in April 2022
|
Brett,
Thanks. Very informative.
Imran
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On Feb 13, 2022, at 4:08 PM, Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote: ? I hate to tell anyone this, but even though I have the length compensating thingamajig and it works great, and I have dial indicators, and I have Brian Lamb's triangle with pins, and I have an EGL/VGL on order....
1. I still use pencil reference marks constantly to keep from screwing up project cut errors
2. I also still use template cuts of scrap materials to cut first, then leave as a bedded?surface under my stock so that I have a pre-cut piece. It makes it way faster to set up that way.?
3. I used to make a big (like 24" or greater lateral length sides)? 45-45-90 triangle out of scrap plywood on the CNC machine for that purpose also and just bed against the fence while leaving it in the square crosscut position so it was easy to flip back and forth. A shopmade jig of any kind can be helpful and easily used for this purpose as well. On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 1:38 PM Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: The shot pin indexing affair on my 2001 machine is dead on for the 45? settings. But, if I was doing a picture frame and wanted dead on joints, I¡¯d probably pull out the indicator, only takes a few minutes.
I cannot imagine anyone in business can afford to put a dial indicator every time, when they make a miter. I can see it for a very special piece but not routinely. Do I have it wrong?
Sure, many pros probably have indexing so they don¡¯t have to mess with a dial indicator.
Imran On Feb 13, 2022, at 12:15 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber < mtgstuber@...> wrote: ?
I feel like we need some new Felder Swag: "It's 11 o'clock . . . do you know where your dial indicator is?"
Same here.
<screenshot_5462.jpg>
On Feb 13, 2022, at 8:14 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...>
wrote:
I
keep a dial indicator on a stand handy at all times,
sits on top of one of my roll aways. Setting the fence
to the blade is always going to give you some error,
unless your set up tool allows for the toe out of the
blade. You need to set fences, straight or angled to the
axis of movement of the slider.
Brian,
I definitely do not want
to bring a dial indicator out every time I
need to set to 45. Yes, my statement was not
the best but I had mentioned earlier that I
want something quick and to me referencing
blade and fence is the quickest method. I did
not mean to imply that it is the only method.
Imran
On Feb 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...>
wrote:
?
Your statement makes no sense. You use the
square to set the angle of the fence, using a
dial indicator on a stand to indicate the one
edge. The blade has nothing to do with it.
Once the fence is at 45? accurately, you can
cut anything you want.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
|
Michael,
Totally agree. I had to look up lithophane. You should share your work unless it is of private nature. Sounds very interesting.
Imran
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On Feb 13, 2022, at 4:49 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...> wrote: ?
Hi Imran,
??? Yet again one my attempts at humor got lost.? It was an
homage to some of the other swag David has created over the years
emphasizing precision and some of the public service ads that used
to run on US television in the 1970s.
??? With respect to what makes sense in business, it all depends
on where your costs are and what kinds of products you are trying
to produce.? For anything repetitive, typically you want to drive
both the labor and the opportunities for mistakes out of the
process.? Wally Kunkel (AKA Mr. Sawdust) wrote about how when they
were building the Levittowns after World War II, they had setup a
whole series of DeWalt radial saws, each set to make a particular
cut so that they could mass produce rafters on site.? Another
professional wood worker I was reading about regularly purchases
additional routers, having each one set up with a specific bit for
a specific cut.? Of course all of this not only trades money for
time, but also requires space.? How much is your time worth to
you?? How much are your clients willing to pay?? What level of
craftsmanship do they demand?? If I was selling a $24,000 table
(like the absolutely gorgeous one that Fred Rossi provided a link
to), getting out a dial indicator might be built into the price
(assuming it was required to maintain quality).
??? What do you like doing and what do you want to pay someone
else do to (understanding that their work might be embedded in a
jig or a precision square)?? If everything you do is bespoke, then
you likely need to account for the time to reconfigure your
machines.? If your start making products which use a consistent
cut, you might setup one machine dedicated to making that cut
because of the speed it affords.?
??? When I make lithophanes
() as presents for family,
I make a frames that use a shallow stub tenon.? After running my
frame stock on the shaper, I set up one radial saw with a dado
blade at the exact right height for creating the shoulders.? I
have a second radial saw configured for a standard cross cut.?
Having two saws configured different ways makes the process of
creating frames much much faster.? Changing blades and setups each
time would kill my productivity.? Doing all the cuts of one kind
and then switching to another would allow be faster, but assumes
that I know the exact size of the frames up front, which I
typically don't because of variations in the size of the glass.? I
have the luxury of having multiple saws and the space for them.?
Back when I had a single saw, I just did a lot of reconfiguring on
any project I did.
??? Returning to the original topic, if I had a whole series of
miters I needed to make and needed to be perfect, I would likely
take the time to ensure that my machine was absolutely spot on so
that I could do production cutting.? Or I would assume that it
wasn't going to ever be good enough and plan to use a shooting
board to true the final miters -- but then you're back to a lot of
labor which probably makes your product unaffordable.
On 2/13/2022 11:19 AM, imranindiana wrote:
I cannot imagine anyone in business can afford to
put a dial indicator every time, when they make a miter. I can
see it for a very special piece but not routinely. Do I have it
wrong?
Sure, many pros probably have indexing so they
don¡¯t have to mess with a dial indicator.
Imran
On Feb 13, 2022, at 12:15 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber
<mtgstuber@...> wrote:
?
I feel like we need some new Felder Swag:
"It's 11 o'clock . . . do you know where your dial indicator
is?"
On 2/13/2022 8:26 AM, david@...
via groups.io wrote:
Same here.
On Feb 13, 2022, at 8:14 AM, Brian Lamb
< blamb11@...>
wrote:
I keep a dial indicator on a stand handy at
all times, sits on top of one of my roll aways.
Setting the fence to the blade is always going to
give you some error, unless your set up tool allows
for the toe out of the blade. You need to set
fences, straight or angled to the axis of movement
of the slider.
Brian,
I definitely do not
want to bring a dial indicator out every
time I need to set to 45. Yes, my
statement was not the best but I had
mentioned earlier that I want something
quick and to me referencing blade and
fence is the quickest method. I did not
mean to imply that it is the only method.
Imran
On Feb 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, Brian Lamb
< blamb11@...>
wrote:
?
Your statement makes no sense. You use the
square to set the angle of the fence,
using a dial indicator on a stand to
indicate the one edge. The blade has
nothing to do with it. Once the fence is
at 45? accurately, you can cut anything
you want.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Hi Imran,
??? Yet again one my attempts at humor got lost.? It was an
homage to some of the other swag David has created over the years
emphasizing precision and some of the public service ads that used
to run on US television in the 1970s.
??? With respect to what makes sense in business, it all depends
on where your costs are and what kinds of products you are trying
to produce.? For anything repetitive, typically you want to drive
both the labor and the opportunities for mistakes out of the
process.? Wally Kunkel (AKA Mr. Sawdust) wrote about how when they
were building the Levittowns after World War II, they had setup a
whole series of DeWalt radial saws, each set to make a particular
cut so that they could mass produce rafters on site.? Another
professional wood worker I was reading about regularly purchases
additional routers, having each one set up with a specific bit for
a specific cut.? Of course all of this not only trades money for
time, but also requires space.? How much is your time worth to
you?? How much are your clients willing to pay?? What level of
craftsmanship do they demand?? If I was selling a $24,000 table
(like the absolutely gorgeous one that Fred Rossi provided a link
to), getting out a dial indicator might be built into the price
(assuming it was required to maintain quality).
??? What do you like doing and what do you want to pay someone
else do to (understanding that their work might be embedded in a
jig or a precision square)?? If everything you do is bespoke, then
you likely need to account for the time to reconfigure your
machines.? If your start making products which use a consistent
cut, you might setup one machine dedicated to making that cut
because of the speed it affords.?
??? When I make lithophanes
() as presents for family,
I make a frames that use a shallow stub tenon.? After running my
frame stock on the shaper, I set up one radial saw with a dado
blade at the exact right height for creating the shoulders.? I
have a second radial saw configured for a standard cross cut.?
Having two saws configured different ways makes the process of
creating frames much much faster.? Changing blades and setups each
time would kill my productivity.? Doing all the cuts of one kind
and then switching to another would allow be faster, but assumes
that I know the exact size of the frames up front, which I
typically don't because of variations in the size of the glass.? I
have the luxury of having multiple saws and the space for them.?
Back when I had a single saw, I just did a lot of reconfiguring on
any project I did.
??? Returning to the original topic, if I had a whole series of
miters I needed to make and needed to be perfect, I would likely
take the time to ensure that my machine was absolutely spot on so
that I could do production cutting.? Or I would assume that it
wasn't going to ever be good enough and plan to use a shooting
board to true the final miters -- but then you're back to a lot of
labor which probably makes your product unaffordable.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2/13/2022 11:19 AM, imranindiana wrote:
I cannot imagine anyone in business can afford to
put a dial indicator every time, when they make a miter. I can
see it for a very special piece but not routinely. Do I have it
wrong?
Sure, many pros probably have indexing so they
don¡¯t have to mess with a dial indicator.
Imran
On Feb 13, 2022, at 12:15 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber
<mtgstuber@...> wrote:
?
I feel like we need some new Felder Swag:
"It's 11 o'clock . . . do you know where your dial indicator
is?"
On 2/13/2022 8:26 AM, david@...
via groups.io wrote:
Same here.
On Feb 13, 2022, at 8:14 AM, Brian Lamb
< blamb11@...>
wrote:
I keep a dial indicator on a stand handy at
all times, sits on top of one of my roll aways.
Setting the fence to the blade is always going to
give you some error, unless your set up tool allows
for the toe out of the blade. You need to set
fences, straight or angled to the axis of movement
of the slider.
Brian,
I definitely do not
want to bring a dial indicator out every
time I need to set to 45. Yes, my
statement was not the best but I had
mentioned earlier that I want something
quick and to me referencing blade and
fence is the quickest method. I did not
mean to imply that it is the only method.
Imran
On Feb 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, Brian Lamb
< blamb11@...>
wrote:
?
Your statement makes no sense. You use the
square to set the angle of the fence,
using a dial indicator on a stand to
indicate the one edge. The blade has
nothing to do with it. Once the fence is
at 45? accurately, you can cut anything
you want.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
I hate to tell anyone this, but even though I have the length compensating thingamajig and it works great, and I have dial indicators, and I have Brian Lamb's triangle with pins, and I have an EGL/VGL on order....
1. I still use pencil reference marks constantly to keep from screwing up project cut errors
2. I also still use template cuts of scrap materials to cut first, then leave as a bedded?surface under my stock so that I have a pre-cut piece. It makes it way faster to set up that way.?
3. I used to make a big (like 24" or greater lateral length sides)? 45-45-90 triangle out of scrap plywood on the CNC machine for that purpose also and just bed against the fence while leaving it in the square crosscut position so it was easy to flip back and forth. A shopmade jig of any kind can be helpful and easily used for this purpose as well.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 1:38 PM Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: The shot pin indexing affair on my 2001 machine is dead on for the 45? settings. But, if I was doing a picture frame and wanted dead on joints, I¡¯d probably pull out the indicator, only takes a few minutes.
I cannot imagine anyone in business can afford to put a dial indicator every time, when they make a miter. I can see it for a very special piece but not routinely. Do I have it wrong?
Sure, many pros probably have indexing so they don¡¯t have to mess with a dial indicator.
Imran On Feb 13, 2022, at 12:15 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber < mtgstuber@...> wrote: ?
I feel like we need some new Felder Swag: "It's 11 o'clock . . . do you know where your dial indicator is?"
Same here.
<screenshot_5462.jpg>
On Feb 13, 2022, at 8:14 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...>
wrote:
I
keep a dial indicator on a stand handy at all times,
sits on top of one of my roll aways. Setting the fence
to the blade is always going to give you some error,
unless your set up tool allows for the toe out of the
blade. You need to set fences, straight or angled to the
axis of movement of the slider.
Brian,
I definitely do not want
to bring a dial indicator out every time I
need to set to 45. Yes, my statement was not
the best but I had mentioned earlier that I
want something quick and to me referencing
blade and fence is the quickest method. I did
not mean to imply that it is the only method.
Imran
On Feb 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...>
wrote:
?
Your statement makes no sense. You use the
square to set the angle of the fence, using a
dial indicator on a stand to indicate the one
edge. The blade has nothing to do with it.
Once the fence is at 45? accurately, you can
cut anything you want.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
|
Post pictures, location and difficulty of moving/shipping and it will be worth what someone will pay for it. Given the long lead times for new machines, it should be a seller¡¯s market.
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I am trying to determine the value of a 2010 AD-741. ?It has the standard Felder blades, and has seen less than average hobbyist use.
I have recently upgraded, and need the room.
I originally paid just under $10,000.
I have no idea how to price this, but it is in excellent condition.
I am open to suggestions on how to price this tool for sale.
Thank you,
Martin
|
Re: K 700 S, Did Felder cheap out on the rip fence?
How good are the aftermarket DRO? It looks like a Wixey is $120 for a fence.
The Wixey I put on my thicknesses is pretty accurate.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Not a Felder Owner yet - expecting K700S in February and A941 in April 2022
|
I am trying to determine the value of a 2010 AD-741. ?It has the standard Felder blades, and has seen less than average hobbyist use.
I have recently upgraded, and need the room.
I originally paid just under $10,000.
I have no idea how to price this, but it is in excellent condition.
I am open to suggestions on how to price this tool for sale.
Thank you,
Martin
|
Re: K 700 S, Did Felder cheap out on the rip fence?
Pretty sure this is what I used to replace mine.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 13, 2022, at 12:35 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
Buy a new scale for the rip fence, inch/metric per your preference. Replace the Felder one and then see where you are.
David, Mark, & Brian¡
I figured out my DRO on the large cross cut fence. ?It¡¯s dialed in and now I¡¯m confident it¡¯s cutting a know quantity. ?I know it¡¯s baby steps, but I want to learn this stuff. ?I appreciate all of your feed back! ?Everyone on here has been great! ?
I made four cuts out of my 1x material, of various lengths, with the cross cut fence. Then laid them at those lengths set on the rip fence and my fence is reading all over the place. ?1 out 4 was correct, when lining up with the measurement on the rip fence scale. There is something definitely not jiving here. ?I took a 40mm spacer block along the support bar and table and the reveal is all consistent. ?The height of the bar is parallel with the top sitting at 32mm below the cast top. ?I¡¯ll run this by Tech Support I guess.
Maybe go for broke and get the commissioning service ordered up. ?
Thx,
Wade
? No, the 202.8 is the offset see the DRO shows ¡°0¡±. This may be wrong because its too late but i assume you have set the dro for the cut which in this case is 202.8 with the flip stop all the way to the right against the hard stop on the fence - yours may be slightly higher or lower. Then you enter the offset of the piece you cut. When you push the up arrow and the down arrow at the same time you will get zero, then repeat and it goes back to the other dimension.
David is much better and more clear in describing this stuff, i¡¯m a beer drinker I think he is a Bourbon drinker? ? Mark,
Okay so I would just cut a random arbitrary piece first that I know would be less than 6¡± and then measure this with the calipers. ?Mark its length, such as you did with the 202.8 one. ?Then take this new spacer and put it between the flip stop and another stick that I¡¯d cut to another arbitrary length that is also less than 6¡± and caliper that, and then add the two together. ?Take this total and Input this into the DRO? ? ? Here is a little better pic of it in use
<image0.jpeg>On Feb 13, 2022, at 12:10 AM, Mark Kessler via <mkessler10@...> wrote:
? You can make a spacer to cut less 6¡± and below then set the off set on the DRO to it <image0.jpeg>? I can try and find the email that she quoted me this. ?My area was a factor, Pacific Northwest? ? That makes no sense to me unless your shop is in Alaska or Hawaii. ?A friend just had a Kappa 400 xMotion commissioned and it was $1,400.
David Best
Hey Mark,
Yeah commissioning wasn¡¯t cheap. ?I pretty much blame Covid for everything now! ??
Wade ? Holy cow, 3k for commissioning? I think 2 yrs ago it was $1250 at the time of purchase. They included it because of the issues with the ad941. They probably raised the price because of me, they had to come back 4 times before i told them to stop? ? David,
I have laid down two different tape measures against the rip fence scale. ?Both have indicated the same results. ?After about 20¡± out, the scale starts getting off from what the steel tapes are saying. I¡¯m convinced this scale is not reading correctly. ?
I did not pay for the commissioning because they quoted me $3k for it. ?After spending $20K plus on the saw, that was my limit. ?And I thought it would be very useful to get to know the saw better and to understand how to do all of this with a hands on experience. ?It¡¯s testing my patience a bit, but I want to learn it.?
Wade
? Lay your measuring tape down on top of the Felder tape for the rip fence and see if they agree. ?
Have you calibrated your digital crosscut stops yet? ?A full PDF of directions is here: ?? Additional photos and videos of the process are here: ?
If you have the crosscut stops calibrated accurately, you can cut yourself a known-good stick that¡¯s as long as you want to compare with what the rip fence is giving you for the same distance. ?If they disagree, either the rip fence distance tape is not accurately marked, or there is some kind of cockpit error on your part, or the round bar that holds the rip fence housing is severely angled relative to the front edge of the cast iron top ?and saw blade.
I¡¯ve asked before, but never heard a response: ?is there some reason you didn¡¯t have Felder commission your machine?
? Hi David,
Made a precise 6¡± block, then calibrated the scale to that, then produced 5 additional ones. ?Lined them up against a 36¡± long cut I made and I¡¯m off by almost a 1/16th. ?Please see attached pictures below.?
Thx,
Wade
<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>
<image2.jpeg>
<image0.jpeg> ? To achieve precise results, your machine needs to be precisely aligned. ?To get your machine in alignment, you need a few specialized tools, and a workflow that eliminates as many sources of error as possible. ?We don¡¯t - for instance - know if your tape measure is accurate. ?I have seen accuracy of conventional wind-up tape measures vary by as much as 1/8" over 4 feet. ?I posted some results about my tape tests a while back, and I recommend you read that post which is here: ?? Starrett tapes are the only once use in my shop. ??
You might first lay your tape measure down against or on top of the distance marking strip provided as part of your rip fence. ?Check to see if they agree. ?You would also benefit by having a decent flat steel measuring straight edge such at this one: ? I have two of these in my shop and use them all the time.? ? A conventional yardstick is no a precise measurement device. ?
The process I outlined will eliminate many sources of potential error in checking your rip fence distance tapes. ?What you care about is the results of the cut, not what your handheld tape against the fence to saw blade is suggesting the resulting cut might be in length. ?I¡¯m working under the assumption that you do not have a 12¡± digital caliper or a precise straight edge with known-good markings such as the one linked to above. ?So the process I outlined (assuming you have a 6¡± digital caliper) will get you to a string of 6¡± long blocks that when put together end-to-end should represent a known-good reference point for checking another longer off-cut length.
If you want to invest in a good but relatively inexpensive 12¡± digital caliper, I recommend this one - I have two of them and use them all the time in my woodworking workflow. ??? ?If you want something cheaper, there is this unit: ?? ?Or if you want a high quality unit, get the Mitutoyo like I have: ??
David,
That¡¯s an interesting approach. ?I¡¯m going to perform what you described, because I¡¯m very interested. ?I will admit I don¡¯t fully understand how it¡¯s going to explain the scale being off when I take simple measurement from the same tooth each time to the fence, at different distances. The further out I measure off the same tooth, the more off the scale reads.?
But I¡¯m going to try your method now.
Thank You,
Wade ? Again, without some photos or a video, I can¡¯t tell if you have a measuring cockpit error or what¡¯s going on. ? You should be measuring the results of a cut, not trying to measure from a blade tooth to the fence. ?The same is true of the crosscut stop - the measurement scale should be adjusted to agree with the precisely measured length of a piece of material cut using that stop position.
If you have a 6¡± digital caliper, here is one way to check accurately. ?Get yourself some 1 x 1 wood material. ?Set your fence at 6¡± as a bump stop, not overlapping the blade, and crosscut cut one piece using the crosscut fence and the rip fence as the bump stop. ?Measure it with your digital caliper, then adjust the fence as required, repeating the cut as necessary until the off-cut measures precisely 6¡± long. ?Then adjust the position of your measuring scale so the 6¡± mark aligns precisely with the fence face. Then cut five more of the 6¡± long blocks, and line them up on the bench end-to-end. ?That should be 36¡± long. ?Then position your fence at 36¡±, and make another off-cut there and compare that to the stack of blocks for length.
That¡¯s what I¡¯m wondering I might have, a faulty scale.
Wade On Feb 12, 2022, at 2:16 PM, Steve Lyde via <stlyde@...> wrote:
? I have not noticed my Felder measurements being off but I did have that with the slider system on my sawstop. ?It turned out to be a faulty measurement scale from Sawstop not a faulty setup procedure.? Steve Lyde ? I do not understand your setup and how you are measuring that generates the error. ?Please make a video and post it somewhere so we can see what you¡¯re seeing.
I¡¯ve got the toe out dialed in right where spec says it should be. ?Then carefully tightened the other two remaining bolts on the support bar, while checking the indicator each time. ?Everything is good and tight. ?So then I calibrated the rip fence scale at 10¡± from the blade. ?Then I proceeded to measure at 5¡±, 10¡±, 20¡± all dead on. ?Then I get to 30¡± and it¡¯s off by a 1/32¡±, then out at 40¡± it¡¯s off en entire 1/16¡± of an inch. ?There has to be something else wrong here.
Thx,
Wade
? I think you¡¯ll find an analog (rather than digital) dial indicator far more useful for alignments. ?Generally speaking, you¡¯re looking for relative measurements rather than absolute - like in the case of the eccentricity of your rip fence wheel. ?Get yourself something like this:
?
David, your a smart guy!
Video attached. ?It just went over .010 in one spot! ? I¡¯ll forward this to Felder as well
? Rotate the rip fence housing around and upside down. ?Mount the dial indicator mag base somewhere inside the rip fence housing and indicate over and down to the wheel. ?Then carefully rotate the wheel and observe the indicator reading. ? If the indicator reading changes more than say 0.010¡± as it¡¯s rotated, then the wheel is defective and causing your fence to bounce up/down as it traverses the surface of the machine. ??
Yes, Just bought one prior to the saw showing up. ? Thx, Wade On Feb 12, 2022, at 9:13 AM, david@... via <david@...> wrote:
?
Are the two nuts, circled in red, only to adjust the rip fence 90 degrees to the table surface? ?And the ONLY way you want to dial in your toe out is through the adjustments of the large 50mm support bar as you described David?
Correct.
Do you have a dial indicator with magnetic base? ??Similar to this?
David Best
<magneticbasedialindicator.jpg>
|
The shot pin indexing affair on my 2001 machine is dead on for the 45? settings. But, if I was doing a picture frame and wanted dead on joints, I¡¯d probably pull out the indicator, only takes a few minutes.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I cannot imagine anyone in business can afford to put a dial indicator every time, when they make a miter. I can see it for a very special piece but not routinely. Do I have it wrong?
Sure, many pros probably have indexing so they don¡¯t have to mess with a dial indicator.
Imran On Feb 13, 2022, at 12:15 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber < mtgstuber@...> wrote: ?
I feel like we need some new Felder Swag: "It's 11 o'clock . . . do you know where your dial indicator is?"
Same here.
<screenshot_5462.jpg>
On Feb 13, 2022, at 8:14 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...>
wrote:
I
keep a dial indicator on a stand handy at all times,
sits on top of one of my roll aways. Setting the fence
to the blade is always going to give you some error,
unless your set up tool allows for the toe out of the
blade. You need to set fences, straight or angled to the
axis of movement of the slider.
Brian,
I definitely do not want
to bring a dial indicator out every time I
need to set to 45. Yes, my statement was not
the best but I had mentioned earlier that I
want something quick and to me referencing
blade and fence is the quickest method. I did
not mean to imply that it is the only method.
Imran
On Feb 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...>
wrote:
?
Your statement makes no sense. You use the
square to set the angle of the fence, using a
dial indicator on a stand to indicate the one
edge. The blade has nothing to do with it.
Once the fence is at 45? accurately, you can
cut anything you want.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Re: K 700 S, Did Felder cheap out on the rip fence?
Buy a new scale for the rip fence, inch/metric per your preference. Replace the Felder one and then see where you are.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
David, Mark, & Brian¡
I figured out my DRO on the large cross cut fence. ?It¡¯s dialed in and now I¡¯m confident it¡¯s cutting a know quantity. ?I know it¡¯s baby steps, but I want to learn this stuff. ?I appreciate all of your feed back! ?Everyone on here has been great! ?
I made four cuts out of my 1x material, of various lengths, with the cross cut fence. Then laid them at those lengths set on the rip fence and my fence is reading all over the place. ?1 out 4 was correct, when lining up with the measurement on the rip fence scale. There is something definitely not jiving here. ?I took a 40mm spacer block along the support bar and table and the reveal is all consistent. ?The height of the bar is parallel with the top sitting at 32mm below the cast top. ?I¡¯ll run this by Tech Support I guess.
Maybe go for broke and get the commissioning service ordered up. ?
Thx,
Wade
? No, the 202.8 is the offset see the DRO shows ¡°0¡±. This may be wrong because its too late but i assume you have set the dro for the cut which in this case is 202.8 with the flip stop all the way to the right against the hard stop on the fence - yours may be slightly higher or lower. Then you enter the offset of the piece you cut. When you push the up arrow and the down arrow at the same time you will get zero, then repeat and it goes back to the other dimension.
David is much better and more clear in describing this stuff, i¡¯m a beer drinker I think he is a Bourbon drinker? ? Mark,
Okay so I would just cut a random arbitrary piece first that I know would be less than 6¡± and then measure this with the calipers. ?Mark its length, such as you did with the 202.8 one. ?Then take this new spacer and put it between the flip stop and another stick that I¡¯d cut to another arbitrary length that is also less than 6¡± and caliper that, and then add the two together. ?Take this total and Input this into the DRO? ? ? Here is a little better pic of it in use
<image0.jpeg>On Feb 13, 2022, at 12:10 AM, Mark Kessler via <mkessler10@...> wrote:
? You can make a spacer to cut less 6¡± and below then set the off set on the DRO to it <image0.jpeg>? I can try and find the email that she quoted me this. ?My area was a factor, Pacific Northwest? ? That makes no sense to me unless your shop is in Alaska or Hawaii. ?A friend just had a Kappa 400 xMotion commissioned and it was $1,400.
David Best
Hey Mark,
Yeah commissioning wasn¡¯t cheap. ?I pretty much blame Covid for everything now! ??
Wade ? Holy cow, 3k for commissioning? I think 2 yrs ago it was $1250 at the time of purchase. They included it because of the issues with the ad941. They probably raised the price because of me, they had to come back 4 times before i told them to stop? ? David,
I have laid down two different tape measures against the rip fence scale. ?Both have indicated the same results. ?After about 20¡± out, the scale starts getting off from what the steel tapes are saying. I¡¯m convinced this scale is not reading correctly. ?
I did not pay for the commissioning because they quoted me $3k for it. ?After spending $20K plus on the saw, that was my limit. ?And I thought it would be very useful to get to know the saw better and to understand how to do all of this with a hands on experience. ?It¡¯s testing my patience a bit, but I want to learn it.?
Wade
? Lay your measuring tape down on top of the Felder tape for the rip fence and see if they agree. ?
Have you calibrated your digital crosscut stops yet? ?A full PDF of directions is here: ?? Additional photos and videos of the process are here: ?
If you have the crosscut stops calibrated accurately, you can cut yourself a known-good stick that¡¯s as long as you want to compare with what the rip fence is giving you for the same distance. ?If they disagree, either the rip fence distance tape is not accurately marked, or there is some kind of cockpit error on your part, or the round bar that holds the rip fence housing is severely angled relative to the front edge of the cast iron top ?and saw blade.
I¡¯ve asked before, but never heard a response: ?is there some reason you didn¡¯t have Felder commission your machine?
? Hi David,
Made a precise 6¡± block, then calibrated the scale to that, then produced 5 additional ones. ?Lined them up against a 36¡± long cut I made and I¡¯m off by almost a 1/16th. ?Please see attached pictures below.?
Thx,
Wade
<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>
<image2.jpeg>
<image0.jpeg> ? To achieve precise results, your machine needs to be precisely aligned. ?To get your machine in alignment, you need a few specialized tools, and a workflow that eliminates as many sources of error as possible. ?We don¡¯t - for instance - know if your tape measure is accurate. ?I have seen accuracy of conventional wind-up tape measures vary by as much as 1/8" over 4 feet. ?I posted some results about my tape tests a while back, and I recommend you read that post which is here: ?? Starrett tapes are the only once use in my shop. ??
You might first lay your tape measure down against or on top of the distance marking strip provided as part of your rip fence. ?Check to see if they agree. ?You would also benefit by having a decent flat steel measuring straight edge such at this one: ? I have two of these in my shop and use them all the time.? ? A conventional yardstick is no a precise measurement device. ?
The process I outlined will eliminate many sources of potential error in checking your rip fence distance tapes. ?What you care about is the results of the cut, not what your handheld tape against the fence to saw blade is suggesting the resulting cut might be in length. ?I¡¯m working under the assumption that you do not have a 12¡± digital caliper or a precise straight edge with known-good markings such as the one linked to above. ?So the process I outlined (assuming you have a 6¡± digital caliper) will get you to a string of 6¡± long blocks that when put together end-to-end should represent a known-good reference point for checking another longer off-cut length.
If you want to invest in a good but relatively inexpensive 12¡± digital caliper, I recommend this one - I have two of them and use them all the time in my woodworking workflow. ??? ?If you want something cheaper, there is this unit: ?? ?Or if you want a high quality unit, get the Mitutoyo like I have: ??
David,
That¡¯s an interesting approach. ?I¡¯m going to perform what you described, because I¡¯m very interested. ?I will admit I don¡¯t fully understand how it¡¯s going to explain the scale being off when I take simple measurement from the same tooth each time to the fence, at different distances. The further out I measure off the same tooth, the more off the scale reads.?
But I¡¯m going to try your method now.
Thank You,
Wade ? Again, without some photos or a video, I can¡¯t tell if you have a measuring cockpit error or what¡¯s going on. ? You should be measuring the results of a cut, not trying to measure from a blade tooth to the fence. ?The same is true of the crosscut stop - the measurement scale should be adjusted to agree with the precisely measured length of a piece of material cut using that stop position.
If you have a 6¡± digital caliper, here is one way to check accurately. ?Get yourself some 1 x 1 wood material. ?Set your fence at 6¡± as a bump stop, not overlapping the blade, and crosscut cut one piece using the crosscut fence and the rip fence as the bump stop. ?Measure it with your digital caliper, then adjust the fence as required, repeating the cut as necessary until the off-cut measures precisely 6¡± long. ?Then adjust the position of your measuring scale so the 6¡± mark aligns precisely with the fence face. Then cut five more of the 6¡± long blocks, and line them up on the bench end-to-end. ?That should be 36¡± long. ?Then position your fence at 36¡±, and make another off-cut there and compare that to the stack of blocks for length.
That¡¯s what I¡¯m wondering I might have, a faulty scale.
Wade On Feb 12, 2022, at 2:16 PM, Steve Lyde via <stlyde@...> wrote:
? I have not noticed my Felder measurements being off but I did have that with the slider system on my sawstop. ?It turned out to be a faulty measurement scale from Sawstop not a faulty setup procedure.? Steve Lyde ? I do not understand your setup and how you are measuring that generates the error. ?Please make a video and post it somewhere so we can see what you¡¯re seeing.
I¡¯ve got the toe out dialed in right where spec says it should be. ?Then carefully tightened the other two remaining bolts on the support bar, while checking the indicator each time. ?Everything is good and tight. ?So then I calibrated the rip fence scale at 10¡± from the blade. ?Then I proceeded to measure at 5¡±, 10¡±, 20¡± all dead on. ?Then I get to 30¡± and it¡¯s off by a 1/32¡±, then out at 40¡± it¡¯s off en entire 1/16¡± of an inch. ?There has to be something else wrong here.
Thx,
Wade
? I think you¡¯ll find an analog (rather than digital) dial indicator far more useful for alignments. ?Generally speaking, you¡¯re looking for relative measurements rather than absolute - like in the case of the eccentricity of your rip fence wheel. ?Get yourself something like this:
?
David, your a smart guy!
Video attached. ?It just went over .010 in one spot! ? I¡¯ll forward this to Felder as well
? Rotate the rip fence housing around and upside down. ?Mount the dial indicator mag base somewhere inside the rip fence housing and indicate over and down to the wheel. ?Then carefully rotate the wheel and observe the indicator reading. ? If the indicator reading changes more than say 0.010¡± as it¡¯s rotated, then the wheel is defective and causing your fence to bounce up/down as it traverses the surface of the machine. ??
Yes, Just bought one prior to the saw showing up. ? Thx, Wade On Feb 12, 2022, at 9:13 AM, david@... via <david@...> wrote:
?
Are the two nuts, circled in red, only to adjust the rip fence 90 degrees to the table surface? ?And the ONLY way you want to dial in your toe out is through the adjustments of the large 50mm support bar as you described David?
Correct.
Do you have a dial indicator with magnetic base? ??Similar to this?
David Best
<magneticbasedialindicator.jpg>
|
I cannot imagine anyone in business can afford to put a dial indicator every time, when they make a miter. I can see it for a very special piece but not routinely. Do I have it wrong?
Sure, many pros probably have indexing so they don¡¯t have to mess with a dial indicator.
Imran
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 13, 2022, at 12:15 PM, Michael Garrison Stuber <mtgstuber@...> wrote: ?
I feel like we need some new Felder Swag:
"It's 11 o'clock . . . do you know where your dial indicator is?"
On 2/13/2022 8:26 AM,
david@... via groups.io wrote:
Same here.
On Feb 13, 2022, at 8:14 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...>
wrote:
I
keep a dial indicator on a stand handy at all times,
sits on top of one of my roll aways. Setting the fence
to the blade is always going to give you some error,
unless your set up tool allows for the toe out of the
blade. You need to set fences, straight or angled to the
axis of movement of the slider.
Brian,
I definitely do not want
to bring a dial indicator out every time I
need to set to 45. Yes, my statement was not
the best but I had mentioned earlier that I
want something quick and to me referencing
blade and fence is the quickest method. I did
not mean to imply that it is the only method.
Imran
On Feb 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...>
wrote:
?
Your statement makes no sense. You use the
square to set the angle of the fence, using a
dial indicator on a stand to indicate the one
edge. The blade has nothing to do with it.
Once the fence is at 45? accurately, you can
cut anything you want.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Re: K 700 S, Did Felder cheap out on the rip fence?
David, Mark, & Brian¡
I figured out my DRO on the large cross cut fence. ?It¡¯s dialed in and now I¡¯m confident it¡¯s cutting a know quantity. ?I know it¡¯s baby steps, but I want to learn this stuff. ?I appreciate all of your feed back! ?Everyone on here has been great! ?
I made four cuts out of my 1x material, of various lengths, with the cross cut fence. Then laid them at those lengths set on the rip fence and my fence is reading all over the place. ?1 out 4 was correct, when lining up with the measurement on the rip fence scale. There is something definitely not jiving here. ?I took a 40mm spacer block along the support bar and table and the reveal is all consistent. ?The height of the bar is parallel with the top sitting at 32mm below the cast top. ?I¡¯ll run this by Tech Support I guess.
Maybe go for broke and get the commissioning service ordered up. ?
Thx,
Wade
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 12, 2022, at 9:44 PM, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:
? No, the 202.8 is the offset see the DRO shows ¡°0¡±. This may be wrong because its too late but i assume you have set the dro for the cut which in this case is 202.8 with the flip stop all the way to the right against the hard stop on the fence - yours may be slightly higher or lower. Then you enter the offset of the piece you cut. When you push the up arrow and the down arrow at the same time you will get zero, then repeat and it goes back to the other dimension.
David is much better and more clear in describing this stuff, i¡¯m a beer drinker I think he is a Bourbon drinker? On Feb 13, 2022, at 12:29 AM, Wade Dees <wjdsignature@...> wrote:
? Mark,
Okay so I would just cut a random arbitrary piece first that I know would be less than 6¡± and then measure this with the calipers. ?Mark its length, such as you did with the 202.8 one. ?Then take this new spacer and put it between the flip stop and another stick that I¡¯d cut to another arbitrary length that is also less than 6¡± and caliper that, and then add the two together. ?Take this total and Input this into the DRO? ? On Feb 12, 2022, at 9:19 PM, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:
? Here is a little better pic of it in use
 On Feb 13, 2022, at 12:10 AM, Mark Kessler via groups.io <mkessler10@...> wrote:
? You can make a spacer to cut less 6¡± and below then set the off set on the DRO to it  On Feb 13, 2022, at 12:00 AM, Wade Dees <wjdsignature@...> wrote:
? I can try and find the email that she quoted me this. ?My area was a factor, Pacific Northwest? On Feb 12, 2022, at 8:50 PM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote:
? That makes no sense to me unless your shop is in Alaska or Hawaii. ?A friend just had a Kappa 400 xMotion commissioned and it was $1,400.
David Best
Hey Mark,
Yeah commissioning wasn¡¯t cheap. ?I pretty much blame Covid for everything now! ??
Wade ? Holy cow, 3k for commissioning? I think 2 yrs ago it was $1250 at the time of purchase. They included it because of the issues with the ad941. They probably raised the price because of me, they had to come back 4 times before i told them to stop? ? David,
I have laid down two different tape measures against the rip fence scale. ?Both have indicated the same results. ?After about 20¡± out, the scale starts getting off from what the steel tapes are saying. I¡¯m convinced this scale is not reading correctly. ?
I did not pay for the commissioning because they quoted me $3k for it. ?After spending $20K plus on the saw, that was my limit. ?And I thought it would be very useful to get to know the saw better and to understand how to do all of this with a hands on experience. ?It¡¯s testing my patience a bit, but I want to learn it.?
Wade
? Lay your measuring tape down on top of the Felder tape for the rip fence and see if they agree. ?
Have you calibrated your digital crosscut stops yet? ?A full PDF of directions is here: ?? Additional photos and videos of the process are here: ?
If you have the crosscut stops calibrated accurately, you can cut yourself a known-good stick that¡¯s as long as you want to compare with what the rip fence is giving you for the same distance. ?If they disagree, either the rip fence distance tape is not accurately marked, or there is some kind of cockpit error on your part, or the round bar that holds the rip fence housing is severely angled relative to the front edge of the cast iron top ?and saw blade.
I¡¯ve asked before, but never heard a response: ?is there some reason you didn¡¯t have Felder commission your machine?
? Hi David,
Made a precise 6¡± block, then calibrated the scale to that, then produced 5 additional ones. ?Lined them up against a 36¡± long cut I made and I¡¯m off by almost a 1/16th. ?Please see attached pictures below.?
Thx,
Wade
<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>
<image2.jpeg>
<image0.jpeg> ? To achieve precise results, your machine needs to be precisely aligned. ?To get your machine in alignment, you need a few specialized tools, and a workflow that eliminates as many sources of error as possible. ?We don¡¯t - for instance - know if your tape measure is accurate. ?I have seen accuracy of conventional wind-up tape measures vary by as much as 1/8" over 4 feet. ?I posted some results about my tape tests a while back, and I recommend you read that post which is here: ?? Starrett tapes are the only once use in my shop. ??
You might first lay your tape measure down against or on top of the distance marking strip provided as part of your rip fence. ?Check to see if they agree. ?You would also benefit by having a decent flat steel measuring straight edge such at this one: ? I have two of these in my shop and use them all the time.? ? A conventional yardstick is no a precise measurement device. ?
The process I outlined will eliminate many sources of potential error in checking your rip fence distance tapes. ?What you care about is the results of the cut, not what your handheld tape against the fence to saw blade is suggesting the resulting cut might be in length. ?I¡¯m working under the assumption that you do not have a 12¡± digital caliper or a precise straight edge with known-good markings such as the one linked to above. ?So the process I outlined (assuming you have a 6¡± digital caliper) will get you to a string of 6¡± long blocks that when put together end-to-end should represent a known-good reference point for checking another longer off-cut length.
If you want to invest in a good but relatively inexpensive 12¡± digital caliper, I recommend this one - I have two of them and use them all the time in my woodworking workflow. ??? ?If you want something cheaper, there is this unit: ?? ?Or if you want a high quality unit, get the Mitutoyo like I have: ??
David,
That¡¯s an interesting approach. ?I¡¯m going to perform what you described, because I¡¯m very interested. ?I will admit I don¡¯t fully understand how it¡¯s going to explain the scale being off when I take simple measurement from the same tooth each time to the fence, at different distances. The further out I measure off the same tooth, the more off the scale reads.?
But I¡¯m going to try your method now.
Thank You,
Wade ? Again, without some photos or a video, I can¡¯t tell if you have a measuring cockpit error or what¡¯s going on. ? You should be measuring the results of a cut, not trying to measure from a blade tooth to the fence. ?The same is true of the crosscut stop - the measurement scale should be adjusted to agree with the precisely measured length of a piece of material cut using that stop position.
If you have a 6¡± digital caliper, here is one way to check accurately. ?Get yourself some 1 x 1 wood material. ?Set your fence at 6¡± as a bump stop, not overlapping the blade, and crosscut cut one piece using the crosscut fence and the rip fence as the bump stop. ?Measure it with your digital caliper, then adjust the fence as required, repeating the cut as necessary until the off-cut measures precisely 6¡± long. ?Then adjust the position of your measuring scale so the 6¡± mark aligns precisely with the fence face. Then cut five more of the 6¡± long blocks, and line them up on the bench end-to-end. ?That should be 36¡± long. ?Then position your fence at 36¡±, and make another off-cut there and compare that to the stack of blocks for length.
That¡¯s what I¡¯m wondering I might have, a faulty scale.
Wade On Feb 12, 2022, at 2:16 PM, Steve Lyde via <stlyde@...> wrote:
? I have not noticed my Felder measurements being off but I did have that with the slider system on my sawstop. ?It turned out to be a faulty measurement scale from Sawstop not a faulty setup procedure.? Steve Lyde ? I do not understand your setup and how you are measuring that generates the error. ?Please make a video and post it somewhere so we can see what you¡¯re seeing.
I¡¯ve got the toe out dialed in right where spec says it should be. ?Then carefully tightened the other two remaining bolts on the support bar, while checking the indicator each time. ?Everything is good and tight. ?So then I calibrated the rip fence scale at 10¡± from the blade. ?Then I proceeded to measure at 5¡±, 10¡±, 20¡± all dead on. ?Then I get to 30¡± and it¡¯s off by a 1/32¡±, then out at 40¡± it¡¯s off en entire 1/16¡± of an inch. ?There has to be something else wrong here.
Thx,
Wade
? I think you¡¯ll find an analog (rather than digital) dial indicator far more useful for alignments. ?Generally speaking, you¡¯re looking for relative measurements rather than absolute - like in the case of the eccentricity of your rip fence wheel. ?Get yourself something like this:
?
David, your a smart guy!
Video attached. ?It just went over .010 in one spot! ? I¡¯ll forward this to Felder as well
? Rotate the rip fence housing around and upside down. ?Mount the dial indicator mag base somewhere inside the rip fence housing and indicate over and down to the wheel. ?Then carefully rotate the wheel and observe the indicator reading. ? If the indicator reading changes more than say 0.010¡± as it¡¯s rotated, then the wheel is defective and causing your fence to bounce up/down as it traverses the surface of the machine. ??
Yes, Just bought one prior to the saw showing up. ? Thx, Wade On Feb 12, 2022, at 9:13 AM, david@... via <david@...> wrote:
?
Are the two nuts, circled in red, only to adjust the rip fence 90 degrees to the table surface? ?And the ONLY way you want to dial in your toe out is through the adjustments of the large 50mm support bar as you described David?
Correct.
Do you have a dial indicator with magnetic base? ??Similar to this?
David Best
<magneticbasedialindicator.jpg>
|
I feel like we need some new Felder Swag:
"It's 11 o'clock . . . do you know where your dial indicator is?"
On 2/13/2022 8:26 AM,
david@... via groups.io wrote:
Same here.
On Feb 13, 2022, at 8:14 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...>
wrote:
I
keep a dial indicator on a stand handy at all times,
sits on top of one of my roll aways. Setting the fence
to the blade is always going to give you some error,
unless your set up tool allows for the toe out of the
blade. You need to set fences, straight or angled to the
axis of movement of the slider.
Brian,
I definitely do not want
to bring a dial indicator out every time I
need to set to 45. Yes, my statement was not
the best but I had mentioned earlier that I
want something quick and to me referencing
blade and fence is the quickest method. I did
not mean to imply that it is the only method.
Imran
On Feb 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...>
wrote:
?
Your statement makes no sense. You use the
square to set the angle of the fence, using a
dial indicator on a stand to indicate the one
edge. The blade has nothing to do with it.
Once the fence is at 45? accurately, you can
cut anything you want.
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Derek and Speedrrracer, thanks for sharing your experiences comparing SS style sliders with Hammer sliders, I appreciate the time you guys put into it. I think Sawstop makes the best cabinet saw on the market, but in the end, it¡¯s still a cabinet saw. And cabinet saws place the operator in line with the blade and require the operator to push the wood along?the rip fence past the blade. SS blade brake protects you from serious injury if you touch the blade, and the riving knife reduces the chance of having wood shot back at you. Preaching to the quire here I know, but sliders have a completely different approach to safety, or they can anyway. I¡¯m still too frequently using the rip fence as a traditional rip fence instead of a bump stop, but there¡¯s no good reason for it, unless the piece is longer than the slider. Slide the table back, secure your workpiece (pneumatic clamps, F&F, hold downs, whatever), walk the slider past the blade with your hands nowhere near the danger zone, unclamp, repeat. You¡¯re not in the line of fire, and the rip fence shouldn¡¯t be trapping any cutoffs between the fence and blade anyway. So really, the safest saw would be one with a sliding table long enough for your longest typical rip, along with a good parallel rip fence option (by which I mean?Brian Lamb¡¯s) and F&F.? Emphasis on safety in this discussion is because of my kids being in the shop. But they¡¯ll not be using a table saw without close supervision in any case. So I¡¯m definitely thinking a Hammer slider, but maybe not the shortest stroke option.? Thanks again, all.? -Shawn
On Saturday, February 12, 2022, 4:45 PM, Derek Cohen <derekcohen@...> wrote: Shawn, for 20 years I had a 3hp contractor saw with a sliding crosscut saw - pretty much the same setup as the SawStop+crosscut slider you are considering. The CC slider was a very decent, solid cast iron and steel construction which kept its settings. It was a much better machine than the standard tablesaw.?
I decided to upgrade 5 years ago. The choice was either another, but better version of the above, which would be the SawStop+CC slider, or a Hammer K3 Winner. I am a serious hobbiest building solid wood furniture, no sheet goods, and frequently enter furniture design and build competitions. At this stage I had not used a true slider, recognising that the machine fixture I had was designed for crosscutting, and not ripping. This is a relevant difference.?
I was fortunate to be able to experience both machines side-by-side and understand the limitation of the SS, along with the promise of the K3. The K3 I was looking at was a short wagon 1250mm. Both machines are very solidly built and will last an amateur forever. Hell, I see many pro shops having far lesser quality machines than mine, and certainly lesser quality than SS. The K3 has 4 hp to the SS 3 hp, and a 12¡± blade vs the 10¡± of the SS. Having used a 12¡± for so many years, moving to a 10¡± was a step backward. Interestingly, ignoring the travel needed for the wagon, the K3 has a much smaller footprint than the SS. And the extra space needed for wagon travel is actually an illusion since one needs this on a standard tablesaw anyway. Lastly, the ¡°slider¡± on the SS is not a wagon as you know it, but designed for crosscut use. The side lies about 6-9¡± away from the blade, unlike a true slider, and I think that you would find this disconcerting.
In the end it was the K3 that came out quite far on top, not in quality of build (this was much of a muchness), but it features and range. I have had zero regret, and am still finding more ways to do things on this delightful machine. ?
This photo was taken shortly after getting the K3 ¡
Regards from Perth
Derek
|
Re: Flip stops for F&F jig
Here's my version I made shortly after getting my K3 last year. Cork was used for the non slip material on the faces.  ??
|
Same here.
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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On Feb 13, 2022, at 8:14 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
I keep a dial indicator on a stand handy at all times, sits on top of one of my roll aways. Setting the fence to the blade is always going to give you some error, unless your set up tool allows for the toe out of the blade. You need to set fences, straight or angled to the axis of movement of the slider.
Brian,
I definitely do not want to bring a dial indicator out every time I need to set to 45. Yes, my statement was not the best but I had mentioned earlier that I want something quick and to me referencing blade and fence is the quickest method. I did not mean to imply that it is the only method.
Imran On Feb 13, 2022, at 10:20 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: ? Your statement makes no sense. You use the square to set the angle of the fence, using a dial indicator on a stand to indicate the one edge. The blade has nothing to do with it. Once the fence is at 45? accurately, you can cut anything you want.
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Re: K 700 S, Did Felder cheap out on the rip fence?
Brian,
Lol, I know I need to just keep my roll up tape measure for out on the job sites only. ?I¡¯m a newby, and this is a learning curve to say the least. ?
It did occur to me late last night, wait I have 6 perfect sized 6¡± blocks. ?I can calibrate with that. I¡¯m going to do it this morning.?
Thank You,
Wade
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On Feb 13, 2022, at 7:03 AM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
? Cripes¡ he just made a whole bunch of 6¡± blocks to stack together, use two and you have 12¡±. Wade needs to get past the idea that he thinks his tape measure is correct and figure out what is really correct, the tape measure, the fence scale or neither.
Well, I guess you¡¯re just going tp have to get inventive. ? Have you considered making a spacer block of a known length? ? Oh, wait, you don¡¯t have a known-length reference standard that¡¯s longer than 6-inches right? ?How about two blocks that are precisely 5¡± long then?
David,
I was going to do that after watching your set videos for the digital crosscut stops, but now I have another problem in doing that at the moment. ?My DRO has the flip stop on the left. ?I do not have a DRO with a flip stop on the right. ?I can only cut down to about an 8¡± long stick. ?And my digital caliper is maxed out at 6¡± or so. ?So I cannot cut a know quantity under 6¡± to program into the DRO.
Wade ? Setup and calibrate your digital crosscut stops and check whether a 30¡± stick cut on that side of the blade agrees with your tape measures or your rip fence scale. ?My money¡¯s on the rip fence scale being the more accurate. ?But hey, I could be wrong. ?My point is that you have no known-good reference standard now other than the stack of 6¡± blocks. ?You¡¯re groping around in the dark until you find a known-good reference point.
David,
I have laid down two different tape measures against the rip fence scale. ?Both have indicated the same results. ?After about 20¡± out, the scale starts getting off from what the steel tapes are saying. I¡¯m convinced this scale is not reading correctly. ?
I did not pay for the commissioning because they quoted me $3k for it. ?After spending $20K plus on the saw, that was my limit. ?And I thought it would be very useful to get to know the saw better and to understand how to do all of this with a hands on experience. ?It¡¯s testing my patience a bit, but I want to learn it.?
Wade
? Lay your measuring tape down on top of the Felder tape for the rip fence and see if they agree. ?
Have you calibrated your digital crosscut stops yet? ?A full PDF of directions is here: ?? Additional photos and videos of the process are here: ?
If you have the crosscut stops calibrated accurately, you can cut yourself a known-good stick that¡¯s as long as you want to compare with what the rip fence is giving you for the same distance. ?If they disagree, either the rip fence distance tape is not accurately marked, or there is some kind of cockpit error on your part, or the round bar that holds the rip fence housing is severely angled relative to the front edge of the cast iron top ?and saw blade.
I¡¯ve asked before, but never heard a response: ?is there some reason you didn¡¯t have Felder commission your machine?
? Hi David,
Made a precise 6¡± block, then calibrated the scale to that, then produced 5 additional ones. ?Lined them up against a 36¡± long cut I made and I¡¯m off by almost a 1/16th. ?Please see attached pictures below.?
Thx,
Wade
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<image0.jpeg> ? To achieve precise results, your machine needs to be precisely aligned. ?To get your machine in alignment, you need a few specialized tools, and a workflow that eliminates as many sources of error as possible. ?We don¡¯t - for instance - know if your tape measure is accurate. ?I have seen accuracy of conventional wind-up tape measures vary by as much as 1/8" over 4 feet. ?I posted some results about my tape tests a while back, and I recommend you read that post which is here: ?? Starrett tapes are the only once use in my shop. ??
You might first lay your tape measure down against or on top of the distance marking strip provided as part of your rip fence. ?Check to see if they agree. ?You would also benefit by having a decent flat steel measuring straight edge such at this one: ? I have two of these in my shop and use them all the time.? ? A conventional yardstick is no a precise measurement device. ?
The process I outlined will eliminate many sources of potential error in checking your rip fence distance tapes. ?What you care about is the results of the cut, not what your handheld tape against the fence to saw blade is suggesting the resulting cut might be in length. ?I¡¯m working under the assumption that you do not have a 12¡± digital caliper or a precise straight edge with known-good markings such as the one linked to above. ?So the process I outlined (assuming you have a 6¡± digital caliper) will get you to a string of 6¡± long blocks that when put together end-to-end should represent a known-good reference point for checking another longer off-cut length.
If you want to invest in a good but relatively inexpensive 12¡± digital caliper, I recommend this one - I have two of them and use them all the time in my woodworking workflow. ??? ?If you want something cheaper, there is this unit: ?? ?Or if you want a high quality unit, get the Mitutoyo like I have: ??
David,
That¡¯s an interesting approach. ?I¡¯m going to perform what you described, because I¡¯m very interested. ?I will admit I don¡¯t fully understand how it¡¯s going to explain the scale being off when I take simple measurement from the same tooth each time to the fence, at different distances. The further out I measure off the same tooth, the more off the scale reads.?
But I¡¯m going to try your method now.
Thank You,
Wade ? Again, without some photos or a video, I can¡¯t tell if you have a measuring cockpit error or what¡¯s going on. ? You should be measuring the results of a cut, not trying to measure from a blade tooth to the fence. ?The same is true of the crosscut stop - the measurement scale should be adjusted to agree with the precisely measured length of a piece of material cut using that stop position.
If you have a 6¡± digital caliper, here is one way to check accurately. ?Get yourself some 1 x 1 wood material. ?Set your fence at 6¡± as a bump stop, not overlapping the blade, and crosscut cut one piece using the crosscut fence and the rip fence as the bump stop. ?Measure it with your digital caliper, then adjust the fence as required, repeating the cut as necessary until the off-cut measures precisely 6¡± long. ?Then adjust the position of your measuring scale so the 6¡± mark aligns precisely with the fence face. Then cut five more of the 6¡± long blocks, and line them up on the bench end-to-end. ?That should be 36¡± long. ?Then position your fence at 36¡±, and make another off-cut there and compare that to the stack of blocks for length.
That¡¯s what I¡¯m wondering I might have, a faulty scale.
Wade On Feb 12, 2022, at 2:16 PM, Steve Lyde via <stlyde@...> wrote:
? I have not noticed my Felder measurements being off but I did have that with the slider system on my sawstop. ?It turned out to be a faulty measurement scale from Sawstop not a faulty setup procedure.? Steve Lyde ? I do not understand your setup and how you are measuring that generates the error. ?Please make a video and post it somewhere so we can see what you¡¯re seeing.
I¡¯ve got the toe out dialed in right where spec says it should be. ?Then carefully tightened the other two remaining bolts on the support bar, while checking the indicator each time. ?Everything is good and tight. ?So then I calibrated the rip fence scale at 10¡± from the blade. ?Then I proceeded to measure at 5¡±, 10¡±, 20¡± all dead on. ?Then I get to 30¡± and it¡¯s off by a 1/32¡±, then out at 40¡± it¡¯s off en entire 1/16¡± of an inch. ?There has to be something else wrong here.
Thx,
Wade
? I think you¡¯ll find an analog (rather than digital) dial indicator far more useful for alignments. ?Generally speaking, you¡¯re looking for relative measurements rather than absolute - like in the case of the eccentricity of your rip fence wheel. ?Get yourself something like this:
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David, your a smart guy!
Video attached. ?It just went over .010 in one spot! ? I¡¯ll forward this to Felder as well
? Rotate the rip fence housing around and upside down. ?Mount the dial indicator mag base somewhere inside the rip fence housing and indicate over and down to the wheel. ?Then carefully rotate the wheel and observe the indicator reading. ? If the indicator reading changes more than say 0.010¡± as it¡¯s rotated, then the wheel is defective and causing your fence to bounce up/down as it traverses the surface of the machine. ??
Yes, Just bought one prior to the saw showing up. ? Thx, Wade On Feb 12, 2022, at 9:13 AM, david@... via <david@...> wrote:
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Are the two nuts, circled in red, only to adjust the rip fence 90 degrees to the table surface? ?And the ONLY way you want to dial in your toe out is through the adjustments of the large 50mm support bar as you described David?
Correct.
Do you have a dial indicator with magnetic base? ??Similar to this?
David Best
<magneticbasedialindicator.jpg>
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David P. Best
Bill Belanger
imran