I agree the templaco is expensive which I acquired used a decade ago… ?Rockler may have a cheaper approach. ??

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of imranindiana via groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 8, 2021 9:49 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FOG] Boring techniques and jigs for passage doors

?

Michael,

?

I have only used it once almost 2 yrs ago but found that I had to mess with it a bit to ensure the jaws are parallel. The bit was also not sharp but that is not a fault. There is no cushioning on clamp faces but that is normally not a concern with hard wood. It does not offer any alignment aid from door to jamb, so you are working with your markings.

?

Keep in mind that I bought it used so my issue could be due to wear. Once you get used to Festool (generally good quality) it is easy to find fault. I also think $400-$500 (templaco that Chris shared) is a bit much for what you get.

?

On the other hand it did work on my door that was 2.25” thick.

?

Are there any other kind available?

?

Imran

On Mar 8, 2021, at 9:53 AM, Michael Todrin <michaeltodrin@...> wrote:

?

Thanks Imran. It looks like Big Horn makes a similar jig. What do you find it’s shortcomings are?

?

Michael

On Mar 8, 2021, at 9:44 AM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:

?

I have Kwikset 91380 which is apparently discontinued. I bought it used. It does the job but I cannot say I love it.

?

?

<image0.jpeg>

?

?

Imran

?

On Mar 8, 2021, at 9:31 AM, Michael Todrin <michaeltodrin@...> wrote:

?I am planning to build new passage doors for my house and I am curious what methods, machinery, jigs and techniques people use to for boring for locksets.

Thanks in advance,

Michael

?

On Mar 8, 2021, at 10:49 AM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:

?

Michael,

I have only used it once almost 2 yrs ago but found that I had to mess with it a bit to ensure the jaws are parallel. The bit was also not sharp but that is not a fault. There is no cushioning on clamp faces but that is normally not a concern with hard wood. It does not offer any alignment aid from door to jamb, so you are working with your markings.

Keep in mind that I bought it used so my issue could be due to wear. Once you get used to Festool (generally good quality) it is easy to find fault. I also think $400-$500 (templaco that Chris shared) is a bit much for what you get.

On the other hand it did work on my door that was 2.25” thick.

Are there any other kind available?

Imran

On Mar 8, 2021, at 9:53 AM, Michael Todrin <michaeltodrin@...> wrote:

?

Thanks Imran. It looks like Big Horn makes a similar jig. What do you find it’s shortcomings are?

Michael

On Mar 8, 2021, at 9:44 AM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:

?

I have Kwikset 91380 which is apparently discontinued. I bought it used. It does the job but I cannot say I love it.

<image0.jpeg>

Imran

On Mar 8, 2021, at 9:31 AM, Michael Todrin <michaeltodrin@...> wrote:

?I am planning to build new passage doors for my house and I am curious what methods, machinery, jigs and techniques people use to for boring for locksets.

Thanks in advance,

Michael

?

I use a square and a hand held power Drill &? hand? chisels

I am planning to build new passage doors for my house and I am curious what methods, machinery, jigs and techniques people use to for boring for locksets.

Thanks in advance,

Michael

I bought the dado blade 3 years ago and just went to use it but I did not get any shims, not sure it should have them. Been on line and see shims but no real instructions. I only bought the 8-15 mm. Does anyone have paper instructions. I must be getting old. Lol It is supposed to be adjustable. If I leave it together I get the 8mm. I think it might be an easy answer. ? Thanks Doug

I am planning to build new passage doors for my house and I am curious what methods, machinery, jigs and techniques people use to for boring for locksets.

Thanks in advance,

Michael

On Mar 8, 2021, at 9:44 AM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:

?

I have Kwikset 91380 which is apparently discontinued. I bought it used. It does the job but I cannot say I love it.

<image0.jpeg>

Imran

On Mar 8, 2021, at 9:31 AM, Michael Todrin <michaeltodrin@...> wrote:

?I am planning to build new passage doors for my house and I am curious what methods, machinery, jigs and techniques people use to for boring for locksets.

Thanks in advance,

Michael

On Mar 8, 2021, at 9:31 AM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:

?

Hi AJ,

If you like you can call me at 765-210-7645. I am in Indiana EST.

If you can share the electrical schematics (typically in a pouch on the electrical cabinet door) that can speed up the process by removing any ambiguity.

You won’t hurt my feelings if you do not want to avail help. So no worries in that case.

Imran

On Mar 7, 2021, at 9:55 PM, AJ Quinter <ajquinter@...> wrote:

?

Thanks all for your comments!? I hope to be able to contribute here more in the future when I have a bit more experience to share!

?

Mike – I agree with you that new means new.? I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect that all buttons should work and they should resolve this issue in some manner.

?

Imran – I know little to nothing about how the switching is set up (electrical connections are not my strong suit) other than the start button is battery powered and the stop button has to be “hard wired” to comply with European safety standards.?

?

David – As you mention, the saw is fully functional as is.? It certainly doesn’t seem like the end of the world for the remote stop button not to work.? At the same time, I think all of the features on a new saw should function properly.? I would like to determine what a reasonable solution might be that is fair to both parties involved.? If Felder’s only solution is to come and disassemble the sliding table, I have thought about just telling them to forget it and that I would work with it as is.? I am not worried about removing the sliding table from the machine base, but I am concerned about disassembling the sliding table itself.? Maybe this concern is unfounded.

?

Mark – I will take a closer look at the electrical connection as you suggest.? This seemed to be an obvious possible issue at the time, so the tech spent a lot of time looking at it and verified the electrical continuity to the stop button itself and within the electrical panel.? He seemed to feel the plastic housing was cracked, but that there were no other issues.

Thanks again,?
AJ?

On Mar 7, 2021, at 7:38 PM, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:

David, I totally agree with your recommendation.

I do think that connector and the tech’s “check” is suspect, that connecter should come apart to see if a wire got pulled from the connector, they are tiny wires and the strain relief is week in that connector. In any case the electrical part is fairly easy to diagnose even over the phone.?

I guess the other thing is that I would think they would be obligated to fix the stop switch and not simply leave it not working and compensate for it, i know it’s an eu rule but... I would demand a new extrusion with delivery and install if they come to the conclusion that it needs to come apart - it is a brand new saw after all....

Regards, Mark

On Mar 7, 2021, at 10:22 PM, david@... via <david@...> wrote:

?I did see your email to Imran, it arrived after I sent my reply. ?My theory is correct then.

My recommendations to AJ stand. ?I would not authorize a field repair if it requires removing the bearing ways (top or bottom) to correct the electrical isolation. ?I would either live with remote start and no remote stop and ask for refund of the option, or I would insist on a replacement sliding table (complete unit). ?The idea that a Felder tech would start screwing with the bearing ways on the sliding table gives me the willies. ?

David Best

On Mar 7, 2021, at 7:15 PM, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:

Hi David, not sure if you saw my email to Imran but yes the right upper and lower rails that carry the 24v are isolated with plastic sheeting ?and I didn’t show a pic but the upper rails are connected to the switch with wires same way as the lower rails.

Regards, Mark

On Mar 7, 2021, at 10:07 PM, david@... via <david@...> wrote:

?Hi AJ,

Now you known why I have Felder commission my equipment - I’m fully capable of doing it my self, but there are often missing parts or damaged items, and I don’t want any finger-pointing that I was somehow the source of the problem. ?Every Felder machine I’ve received has had some kind of post-commissioning followup issue to be resolved. ?Most have been minor. ?In once, the first Dual 51 outfeed table elevation system was damaged internally, and the entire machine had to be replaced. ?Most recently, the outfeed extension table on my Kappa 400 was warped and a new table was sent to replace it (70+ pounds arriving 8 weeks later). ?So this kind of thing does happen, and it can be very frustrating to pay high dollar for something that has issues upon delivery. ?Many (if not most) of the problems I have seen discussed here and in private stem from poor packaging and shipment damage.

I don’t have direct experience with the remote stop switch on the sliding table, but I do have some ideas and suggestions. ?The wireless remote start facility has been an option on Felder sliders for about 18 years. ?It was only recently they added a remote STOP switch to the configuration. ?Due to safety regulations in Europe, the requirement is that a Stop switch has to be hard wired, and can not be triggered electronically. ?The stop circuits on the Felder equipment are all based on a Normally Closed switch to maintain continuity for the machine to run. ?The theory here is that if the switch itself were to malfunction, you’’d want it to stop the machine or prevent it from starting. ?The E-STOP switch is wired in parallel with the saw blade cover plenum cover switch and the cassis hinged door switch. ?If any of these switches are open, or the wires to them become damaged, the circuit is broken and the machine will not start.

I’m not entirely sure if the remote start switch on the slider is in that same circuit. ?My guess is that it’s a separate circuit, but is also probably a normally closed setup, so that when the switch is pressed it actually breaks a circuit rather than making one.

Looking at the photo Mark provided, it looks to me like the remote stop circuit cable is wired to terminate on the bearing ways of the sliding table lower carriage. ?Here is what I’m looking at:

<screenshot_4880.jpeg>

I conclude from this that that one of the bearing ways (the V-shaped hard steel runners facing outward on each side) is electrically isolated from the other bearing ways. ?I’ll also theorize that the stop circuit is triggered when the connection between the two bearing ways is electrically opened, and that something inside the top moving part of the sliding table is making the connection until the stop button is depressed. ?This theory would be easily confirmed by removing the two Phillips screws that attach the wires, and testing the function when the wires are shorted together.

The question in my mind is how this system electrically isolates one of the bearing ways from the extrusion it attaches to below. ?There must be some kind of insulator material that isolates the ways, and the fasteners that attach it ?to the lower carriage. ?Again, I’m flying blind here, not having dealt with this before, but logically, that’s what makes sense to me.

Look at the photo you originally posted, it is also clear that the connector between the sliding table wires and the machine chassis is broken:

<screenshot_4882.jpeg>

And from another photos, there is evidence of some kind of insulator material for presumably electrical isolation:

<screenshot_4881.jpeg>

I can imagine a simple fix for this (connector replacement) or a pretty challenging fix for this (tearing off one of the bearing ways and fixing the electrical isolation material). ?The extent of the required fix would bias my own idea what should happen. ?Here are some scenarios.

If the fault lies with the lower carriage of the sliding table, specifically electrical isolation of the V-ways, then I would assume the bearing way has to come off, the insulator reapplied or repaired, and the way replaced. ?The alignment of those bearing ways is a critical element in the performance of the sliding table, and this is done in the factory with precision jigs and fixtures. ?It is possible to adjust one of the bearing ways in the field with a specialized measurement device which has been discussed here and I document here: ?

I would not trust having a Felder field technician remove and reinstall one ?of the bearing ways on the sliding table - the alignment requirement is too critical IMO. ?If that turns out to be the case, I would either insist on a new sliding table (probably 6 months wait, but minimal disruption for install), or I would live without the remote start function and ask Felder to refund the cost of the option.

Hope this helps.

David Best

On Mar 7, 2021, at 10:38 AM, AJ Quinter <ajquinter@...> wrote:

I posted here a little while back about an opportunity I had to purchase several Felder tools (lightly used saw, planer, jointer, dust collector, etc.).? It seemed like a great deal, but unfortunately things fell apart quickly when I stipulated in the bill of sale that the seller had to confirm that he was the legal owner of the equipment, free of liens or other encumbrances.

After that deal fell apart, I ended up ordering a new K940S with a 126" sliding table.? I have never owned a sliding table saw and although I own David Best's excellent survival guide, decided to have the machine commissioned by a Felder technician.

I received the saw and a couple of issues came up during the commissioning.? The outrigger and fence extrusions were packed with the sliding table.? During shipping these extrusions scratched the insulating tape on the underside of the sliding table.? The damage did not look like a big deal at the time.?

When the entire commissioning process was finished, I made a test cut and the stop button on the sliding table did not work (the start button worked fine).? Justin, the technician, indicated that the start button works with radio frequency, but the stop button works by conducting electricity through the sliding rails themselves.? The rails must need to be isolated in some manner to prevent the signal from shorting out to the machine base.? He indicated that the scratched insulating tape could be the issue (he tried fixing this with electrical tape, but didn't succeed), or it could be a damaged insulating coating on one of the many, many screws in the sliding table assembly.? He indicated that this was definitely a warranty issue.? He would need to come back and completely disassemble the sliding table to try to fix the problem.??

I am not at all thrilled with this idea!? Although Justin seemed very competent, I don't like the idea of someone disassembling and reassembling the factory assembled sliding table on site.? Obviously, this component is really the critical precision element on the whole machine.? I don't have clean space, fixtures, etc. for this operation to take place.? I am also quite concerned that when finished (and with my luck) nothing will be resolved!? Further, I am not thrilled about someone coming in and upending my shop for several days with this process.

One of the other issues I had is the wire connection between the sliding table and main saw cracked during installation.? Justin indicated that this was a relatively common issue, but obviously not ideal.? He checked in the electrical panel and indicated that there were no issues with functionality relating to the cracked connection.??

I would love to get some feedback from all of you regarding these issues.? How would you proceed?? What would you try to get Felder to do to remedy the situation?? How big of a deal is it that the stop button on the sliding table doesn't work???

Thanks so much for your help and opinions!


??
<damaged strip.jpg><cracked connection.jpg>

On Mar 7, 2021, at 10:22 PM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote:

?I did see your email to Imran, it arrived after I sent my reply. ?My theory is correct then.

My recommendations to AJ stand. ?I would not authorize a field repair if it requires removing the bearing ways (top or bottom) to correct the electrical isolation. ?I would either live with remote start and no remote stop and ask for refund of the option, or I would insist on a replacement sliding table (complete unit). ?The idea that a Felder tech would start screwing with the bearing ways on the sliding table gives me the willies. ?

David Best

https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/

On Mar 7, 2021, at 7:15 PM, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:

Hi David, not sure if you saw my email to Imran but yes the right upper and lower rails that carry the 24v are isolated with plastic sheeting ?and I didn’t show a pic but the upper rails are connected to the switch with wires same way as the lower rails.

Regards, Mark

On Mar 7, 2021, at 10:07 PM, david@... via <david@...> wrote:

?Hi AJ,

Now you known why I have Felder commission my equipment - I’m fully capable of doing it my self, but there are often missing parts or damaged items, and I don’t want any finger-pointing that I was somehow the source of the problem. ?Every Felder machine I’ve received has had some kind of post-commissioning followup issue to be resolved. ?Most have been minor. ?In once, the first Dual 51 outfeed table elevation system was damaged internally, and the entire machine had to be replaced. ?Most recently, the outfeed extension table on my Kappa 400 was warped and a new table was sent to replace it (70+ pounds arriving 8 weeks later). ?So this kind of thing does happen, and it can be very frustrating to pay high dollar for something that has issues upon delivery. ?Many (if not most) of the problems I have seen discussed here and in private stem from poor packaging and shipment damage.

I don’t have direct experience with the remote stop switch on the sliding table, but I do have some ideas and suggestions. ?The wireless remote start facility has been an option on Felder sliders for about 18 years. ?It was only recently they added a remote STOP switch to the configuration. ?Due to safety regulations in Europe, the requirement is that a Stop switch has to be hard wired, and can not be triggered electronically. ?The stop circuits on the Felder equipment are all based on a Normally Closed switch to maintain continuity for the machine to run. ?The theory here is that if the switch itself were to malfunction, you’’d want it to stop the machine or prevent it from starting. ?The E-STOP switch is wired in parallel with the saw blade cover plenum cover switch and the cassis hinged door switch. ?If any of these switches are open, or the wires to them become damaged, the circuit is broken and the machine will not start.

I’m not entirely sure if the remote start switch on the slider is in that same circuit. ?My guess is that it’s a separate circuit, but is also probably a normally closed setup, so that when the switch is pressed it actually breaks a circuit rather than making one.

Looking at the photo Mark provided, it looks to me like the remote stop circuit cable is wired to terminate on the bearing ways of the sliding table lower carriage. ?Here is what I’m looking at:

<screenshot_4880.jpeg>

I conclude from this that that one of the bearing ways (the V-shaped hard steel runners facing outward on each side) is electrically isolated from the other bearing ways. ?I’ll also theorize that the stop circuit is triggered when the connection between the two bearing ways is electrically opened, and that something inside the top moving part of the sliding table is making the connection until the stop button is depressed. ?This theory would be easily confirmed by removing the two Phillips screws that attach the wires, and testing the function when the wires are shorted together.

The question in my mind is how this system electrically isolates one of the bearing ways from the extrusion it attaches to below. ?There must be some kind of insulator material that isolates the ways, and the fasteners that attach it ?to the lower carriage. ?Again, I’m flying blind here, not having dealt with this before, but logically, that’s what makes sense to me.

Look at the photo you originally posted, it is also clear that the connector between the sliding table wires and the machine chassis is broken:

<screenshot_4882.jpeg>

And from another photos, there is evidence of some kind of insulator material for presumably electrical isolation:

<screenshot_4881.jpeg>

I can imagine a simple fix for this (connector replacement) or a pretty challenging fix for this (tearing off one of the bearing ways and fixing the electrical isolation material). ?The extent of the required fix would bias my own idea what should happen. ?Here are some scenarios.

If the fault lies with the lower carriage of the sliding table, specifically electrical isolation of the V-ways, then I would assume the bearing way has to come off, the insulator reapplied or repaired, and the way replaced. ?The alignment of those bearing ways is a critical element in the performance of the sliding table, and this is done in the factory with precision jigs and fixtures. ?It is possible to adjust one of the bearing ways in the field with a specialized measurement device which has been discussed here and I document here: ?

I would not trust having a Felder field technician remove and reinstall one ?of the bearing ways on the sliding table - the alignment requirement is too critical IMO. ?If that turns out to be the case, I would either insist on a new sliding table (probably 6 months wait, but minimal disruption for install), or I would live without the remote start function and ask Felder to refund the cost of the option.

Hope this helps.

David Best

On Mar 7, 2021, at 10:38 AM, AJ Quinter <ajquinter@...> wrote:

I posted here a little while back about an opportunity I had to purchase several Felder tools (lightly used saw, planer, jointer, dust collector, etc.).? It seemed like a great deal, but unfortunately things fell apart quickly when I stipulated in the bill of sale that the seller had to confirm that he was the legal owner of the equipment, free of liens or other encumbrances.

After that deal fell apart, I ended up ordering a new K940S with a 126" sliding table.? I have never owned a sliding table saw and although I own David Best's excellent survival guide, decided to have the machine commissioned by a Felder technician.

I received the saw and a couple of issues came up during the commissioning.? The outrigger and fence extrusions were packed with the sliding table.? During shipping these extrusions scratched the insulating tape on the underside of the sliding table.? The damage did not look like a big deal at the time.?

When the entire commissioning process was finished, I made a test cut and the stop button on the sliding table did not work (the start button worked fine).? Justin, the technician, indicated that the start button works with radio frequency, but the stop button works by conducting electricity through the sliding rails themselves.? The rails must need to be isolated in some manner to prevent the signal from shorting out to the machine base.? He indicated that the scratched insulating tape could be the issue (he tried fixing this with electrical tape, but didn't succeed), or it could be a damaged insulating coating on one of the many, many screws in the sliding table assembly.? He indicated that this was definitely a warranty issue.? He would need to come back and completely disassemble the sliding table to try to fix the problem.??

I am not at all thrilled with this idea!? Although Justin seemed very competent, I don't like the idea of someone disassembling and reassembling the factory assembled sliding table on site.? Obviously, this component is really the critical precision element on the whole machine.? I don't have clean space, fixtures, etc. for this operation to take place.? I am also quite concerned that when finished (and with my luck) nothing will be resolved!? Further, I am not thrilled about someone coming in and upending my shop for several days with this process.

One of the other issues I had is the wire connection between the sliding table and main saw cracked during installation.? Justin indicated that this was a relatively common issue, but obviously not ideal.? He checked in the electrical panel and indicated that there were no issues with functionality relating to the cracked connection.??

I would love to get some feedback from all of you regarding these issues.? How would you proceed?? What would you try to get Felder to do to remedy the situation?? How big of a deal is it that the stop button on the sliding table doesn't work???

Thanks so much for your help and opinions!


??
<damaged strip.jpg><cracked connection.jpg>

On Mar 7, 2021, at 7:15 PM, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:

Hi David, not sure if you saw my email to Imran but yes the right upper and lower rails that carry the 24v are isolated with plastic sheeting ?and I didn’t show a pic but the upper rails are connected to the switch with wires same way as the lower rails.

Regards, Mark

On Mar 7, 2021, at 10:07 PM, david@... via <david@...> wrote:

?Hi AJ,

Now you known why I have Felder commission my equipment - I’m fully capable of doing it my self, but there are often missing parts or damaged items, and I don’t want any finger-pointing that I was somehow the source of the problem. ?Every Felder machine I’ve received has had some kind of post-commissioning followup issue to be resolved. ?Most have been minor. ?In once, the first Dual 51 outfeed table elevation system was damaged internally, and the entire machine had to be replaced. ?Most recently, the outfeed extension table on my Kappa 400 was warped and a new table was sent to replace it (70+ pounds arriving 8 weeks later). ?So this kind of thing does happen, and it can be very frustrating to pay high dollar for something that has issues upon delivery. ?Many (if not most) of the problems I have seen discussed here and in private stem from poor packaging and shipment damage.

I don’t have direct experience with the remote stop switch on the sliding table, but I do have some ideas and suggestions. ?The wireless remote start facility has been an option on Felder sliders for about 18 years. ?It was only recently they added a remote STOP switch to the configuration. ?Due to safety regulations in Europe, the requirement is that a Stop switch has to be hard wired, and can not be triggered electronically. ?The stop circuits on the Felder equipment are all based on a Normally Closed switch to maintain continuity for the machine to run. ?The theory here is that if the switch itself were to malfunction, you’’d want it to stop the machine or prevent it from starting. ?The E-STOP switch is wired in parallel with the saw blade cover plenum cover switch and the cassis hinged door switch. ?If any of these switches are open, or the wires to them become damaged, the circuit is broken and the machine will not start.

I’m not entirely sure if the remote start switch on the slider is in that same circuit. ?My guess is that it’s a separate circuit, but is also probably a normally closed setup, so that when the switch is pressed it actually breaks a circuit rather than making one.

Looking at the photo Mark provided, it looks to me like the remote stop circuit cable is wired to terminate on the bearing ways of the sliding table lower carriage. ?Here is what I’m looking at:

<screenshot_4880.jpeg>

I conclude from this that that one of the bearing ways (the V-shaped hard steel runners facing outward on each side) is electrically isolated from the other bearing ways. ?I’ll also theorize that the stop circuit is triggered when the connection between the two bearing ways is electrically opened, and that something inside the top moving part of the sliding table is making the connection until the stop button is depressed. ?This theory would be easily confirmed by removing the two Phillips screws that attach the wires, and testing the function when the wires are shorted together.

The question in my mind is how this system electrically isolates one of the bearing ways from the extrusion it attaches to below. ?There must be some kind of insulator material that isolates the ways, and the fasteners that attach it ?to the lower carriage. ?Again, I’m flying blind here, not having dealt with this before, but logically, that’s what makes sense to me.

Look at the photo you originally posted, it is also clear that the connector between the sliding table wires and the machine chassis is broken:

<screenshot_4882.jpeg>

And from another photos, there is evidence of some kind of insulator material for presumably electrical isolation:

<screenshot_4881.jpeg>

I can imagine a simple fix for this (connector replacement) or a pretty challenging fix for this (tearing off one of the bearing ways and fixing the electrical isolation material). ?The extent of the required fix would bias my own idea what should happen. ?Here are some scenarios.

If the fault lies with the lower carriage of the sliding table, specifically electrical isolation of the V-ways, then I would assume the bearing way has to come off, the insulator reapplied or repaired, and the way replaced. ?The alignment of those bearing ways is a critical element in the performance of the sliding table, and this is done in the factory with precision jigs and fixtures. ?It is possible to adjust one of the bearing ways in the field with a specialized measurement device which has been discussed here and I document here: ?

I would not trust having a Felder field technician remove and reinstall one ?of the bearing ways on the sliding table - the alignment requirement is too critical IMO. ?If that turns out to be the case, I would either insist on a new sliding table (probably 6 months wait, but minimal disruption for install), or I would live without the remote start function and ask Felder to refund the cost of the option.

Hope this helps.

David Best

On Mar 7, 2021, at 10:38 AM, AJ Quinter <ajquinter@...> wrote:

I posted here a little while back about an opportunity I had to purchase several Felder tools (lightly used saw, planer, jointer, dust collector, etc.).? It seemed like a great deal, but unfortunately things fell apart quickly when I stipulated in the bill of sale that the seller had to confirm that he was the legal owner of the equipment, free of liens or other encumbrances.

After that deal fell apart, I ended up ordering a new K940S with a 126" sliding table.? I have never owned a sliding table saw and although I own David Best's excellent survival guide, decided to have the machine commissioned by a Felder technician.

I received the saw and a couple of issues came up during the commissioning.? The outrigger and fence extrusions were packed with the sliding table.? During shipping these extrusions scratched the insulating tape on the underside of the sliding table.? The damage did not look like a big deal at the time.?

When the entire commissioning process was finished, I made a test cut and the stop button on the sliding table did not work (the start button worked fine).? Justin, the technician, indicated that the start button works with radio frequency, but the stop button works by conducting electricity through the sliding rails themselves.? The rails must need to be isolated in some manner to prevent the signal from shorting out to the machine base.? He indicated that the scratched insulating tape could be the issue (he tried fixing this with electrical tape, but didn't succeed), or it could be a damaged insulating coating on one of the many, many screws in the sliding table assembly.? He indicated that this was definitely a warranty issue.? He would need to come back and completely disassemble the sliding table to try to fix the problem.??

I am not at all thrilled with this idea!? Although Justin seemed very competent, I don't like the idea of someone disassembling and reassembling the factory assembled sliding table on site.? Obviously, this component is really the critical precision element on the whole machine.? I don't have clean space, fixtures, etc. for this operation to take place.? I am also quite concerned that when finished (and with my luck) nothing will be resolved!? Further, I am not thrilled about someone coming in and upending my shop for several days with this process.

One of the other issues I had is the wire connection between the sliding table and main saw cracked during installation.? Justin indicated that this was a relatively common issue, but obviously not ideal.? He checked in the electrical panel and indicated that there were no issues with functionality relating to the cracked connection.??

I would love to get some feedback from all of you regarding these issues.? How would you proceed?? What would you try to get Felder to do to remedy the situation?? How big of a deal is it that the stop button on the sliding table doesn't work???

Thanks so much for your help and opinions!


??
<damaged strip.jpg><cracked connection.jpg>

On Mar 7, 2021, at 10:07 PM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote:

?Hi AJ,

Now you known why I have Felder commission my equipment - I’m fully capable of doing it my self, but there are often missing parts or damaged items, and I don’t want any finger-pointing that I was somehow the source of the problem. ?Every Felder machine I’ve received has had some kind of post-commissioning followup issue to be resolved. ?Most have been minor. ?In once, the first Dual 51 outfeed table elevation system was damaged internally, and the entire machine had to be replaced. ?Most recently, the outfeed extension table on my Kappa 400 was warped and a new table was sent to replace it (70+ pounds arriving 8 weeks later). ?So this kind of thing does happen, and it can be very frustrating to pay high dollar for something that has issues upon delivery. ?Many (if not most) of the problems I have seen discussed here and in private stem from poor packaging and shipment damage.

I don’t have direct experience with the remote stop switch on the sliding table, but I do have some ideas and suggestions. ?The wireless remote start facility has been an option on Felder sliders for about 18 years. ?It was only recently they added a remote STOP switch to the configuration. ?Due to safety regulations in Europe, the requirement is that a Stop switch has to be hard wired, and can not be triggered electronically. ?The stop circuits on the Felder equipment are all based on a Normally Closed switch to maintain continuity for the machine to run. ?The theory here is that if the switch itself were to malfunction, you’’d want it to stop the machine or prevent it from starting. ?The E-STOP switch is wired in parallel with the saw blade cover plenum cover switch and the cassis hinged door switch. ?If any of these switches are open, or the wires to them become damaged, the circuit is broken and the machine will not start.

I’m not entirely sure if the remote start switch on the slider is in that same circuit. ?My guess is that it’s a separate circuit, but is also probably a normally closed setup, so that when the switch is pressed it actually breaks a circuit rather than making one.

Looking at the photo Mark provided, it looks to me like the remote stop circuit cable is wired to terminate on the bearing ways of the sliding table lower carriage. ?Here is what I’m looking at:

<screenshot_4880.jpeg>

I conclude from this that that one of the bearing ways (the V-shaped hard steel runners facing outward on each side) is electrically isolated from the other bearing ways. ?I’ll also theorize that the stop circuit is triggered when the connection between the two bearing ways is electrically opened, and that something inside the top moving part of the sliding table is making the connection until the stop button is depressed. ?This theory would be easily confirmed by removing the two Phillips screws that attach the wires, and testing the function when the wires are shorted together.

The question in my mind is how this system electrically isolates one of the bearing ways from the extrusion it attaches to below. ?There must be some kind of insulator material that isolates the ways, and the fasteners that attach it ?to the lower carriage. ?Again, I’m flying blind here, not having dealt with this before, but logically, that’s what makes sense to me.

Look at the photo you originally posted, it is also clear that the connector between the sliding table wires and the machine chassis is broken:

<screenshot_4882.jpeg>

And from another photos, there is evidence of some kind of insulator material for presumably electrical isolation:

<screenshot_4881.jpeg>

I can imagine a simple fix for this (connector replacement) or a pretty challenging fix for this (tearing off one of the bearing ways and fixing the electrical isolation material). ?The extent of the required fix would bias my own idea what should happen. ?Here are some scenarios.

If the fault lies with the lower carriage of the sliding table, specifically electrical isolation of the V-ways, then I would assume the bearing way has to come off, the insulator reapplied or repaired, and the way replaced. ?The alignment of those bearing ways is a critical element in the performance of the sliding table, and this is done in the factory with precision jigs and fixtures. ?It is possible to adjust one of the bearing ways in the field with a specialized measurement device which has been discussed here and I document here: ?

I would not trust having a Felder field technician remove and reinstall one ?of the bearing ways on the sliding table - the alignment requirement is too critical IMO. ?If that turns out to be the case, I would either insist on a new sliding table (probably 6 months wait, but minimal disruption for install), or I would live without the remote start function and ask Felder to refund the cost of the option.

Hope this helps.

David Best

On Mar 7, 2021, at 10:38 AM, AJ Quinter <ajquinter@...> wrote:

I posted here a little while back about an opportunity I had to purchase several Felder tools (lightly used saw, planer, jointer, dust collector, etc.).? It seemed like a great deal, but unfortunately things fell apart quickly when I stipulated in the bill of sale that the seller had to confirm that he was the legal owner of the equipment, free of liens or other encumbrances.

After that deal fell apart, I ended up ordering a new K940S with a 126" sliding table.? I have never owned a sliding table saw and although I own David Best's excellent survival guide, decided to have the machine commissioned by a Felder technician.

I received the saw and a couple of issues came up during the commissioning.? The outrigger and fence extrusions were packed with the sliding table.? During shipping these extrusions scratched the insulating tape on the underside of the sliding table.? The damage did not look like a big deal at the time.?

When the entire commissioning process was finished, I made a test cut and the stop button on the sliding table did not work (the start button worked fine).? Justin, the technician, indicated that the start button works with radio frequency, but the stop button works by conducting electricity through the sliding rails themselves.? The rails must need to be isolated in some manner to prevent the signal from shorting out to the machine base.? He indicated that the scratched insulating tape could be the issue (he tried fixing this with electrical tape, but didn't succeed), or it could be a damaged insulating coating on one of the many, many screws in the sliding table assembly.? He indicated that this was definitely a warranty issue.? He would need to come back and completely disassemble the sliding table to try to fix the problem.??

I am not at all thrilled with this idea!? Although Justin seemed very competent, I don't like the idea of someone disassembling and reassembling the factory assembled sliding table on site.? Obviously, this component is really the critical precision element on the whole machine.? I don't have clean space, fixtures, etc. for this operation to take place.? I am also quite concerned that when finished (and with my luck) nothing will be resolved!? Further, I am not thrilled about someone coming in and upending my shop for several days with this process.

One of the other issues I had is the wire connection between the sliding table and main saw cracked during installation.? Justin indicated that this was a relatively common issue, but obviously not ideal.? He checked in the electrical panel and indicated that there were no issues with functionality relating to the cracked connection.??

I would love to get some feedback from all of you regarding these issues.? How would you proceed?? What would you try to get Felder to do to remedy the situation?? How big of a deal is it that the stop button on the sliding table doesn't work???

Thanks so much for your help and opinions!


??
<damaged strip.jpg><cracked connection.jpg>

On Mar 7, 2021, at 10:38 AM, AJ Quinter <ajquinter@...> wrote:

I posted here a little while back about an opportunity I had to purchase several Felder tools (lightly used saw, planer, jointer, dust collector, etc.).? It seemed like a great deal, but unfortunately things fell apart quickly when I stipulated in the bill of sale that the seller had to confirm that he was the legal owner of the equipment, free of liens or other encumbrances.

After that deal fell apart, I ended up ordering a new K940S with a 126" sliding table.? I have never owned a sliding table saw and although I own David Best's excellent survival guide, decided to have the machine commissioned by a Felder technician.

I received the saw and a couple of issues came up during the commissioning.? The outrigger and fence extrusions were packed with the sliding table.? During shipping these extrusions scratched the insulating tape on the underside of the sliding table.? The damage did not look like a big deal at the time.?

When the entire commissioning process was finished, I made a test cut and the stop button on the sliding table did not work (the start button worked fine).? Justin, the technician, indicated that the start button works with radio frequency, but the stop button works by conducting electricity through the sliding rails themselves.? The rails must need to be isolated in some manner to prevent the signal from shorting out to the machine base.? He indicated that the scratched insulating tape could be the issue (he tried fixing this with electrical tape, but didn't succeed), or it could be a damaged insulating coating on one of the many, many screws in the sliding table assembly.? He indicated that this was definitely a warranty issue.? He would need to come back and completely disassemble the sliding table to try to fix the problem.??

I am not at all thrilled with this idea!? Although Justin seemed very competent, I don't like the idea of someone disassembling and reassembling the factory assembled sliding table on site.? Obviously, this component is really the critical precision element on the whole machine.? I don't have clean space, fixtures, etc. for this operation to take place.? I am also quite concerned that when finished (and with my luck) nothing will be resolved!? Further, I am not thrilled about someone coming in and upending my shop for several days with this process.

One of the other issues I had is the wire connection between the sliding table and main saw cracked during installation.? Justin indicated that this was a relatively common issue, but obviously not ideal.? He checked in the electrical panel and indicated that there were no issues with functionality relating to the cracked connection.??

I would love to get some feedback from all of you regarding these issues.? How would you proceed?? What would you try to get Felder to do to remedy the situation?? How big of a deal is it that the stop button on the sliding table doesn't work???

Thanks so much for your help and opinions!


??
<damaged strip.jpg><cracked connection.jpg>

On Mar 7, 2021, at 8:51 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:

?

Mark,

Very helpful info and I know you shared it before but too much info to retain. So how is this circuit wired because reversing wires on a typical stop switch wired in series is not affected by reversing wires?

So it appears that the right and left rails (roller track) are isolated from the main extrusion. Not sure how they do that, aren’t they screwed into extrusion?

Anyhow, I assume the same setup is duplicated on the slider rails and signals finally reach the stop switch.

Imran

On Mar 7, 2021, at 8:37 PM, Mark Kessler <mkessler10@...> wrote:

?Hi me again, I am such a dip shiz lol, some how I didn’t even notice the pic’s you included... Dude! Totally gota be the plug and it does look like it got ripped off, if you look at the little tabs they look like they have been wrenched on , my money is on the wires being reversed...

Regards, Mark

On Mar 7, 2021, at 8:23 PM, Mark Kessler via groups.io <mkessler10@...> wrote:

?

So i just re read your email after i typed the below, i think its your connector to the slider, it is common as its fully exposed during installation and easy to forget. Disconnect it and check to see if the pins are fully extended and one is not pushed in. (Incidentally I work with a lot of servo motors at work being disconnected and reconnected a lot and it is the first thing i check when a motor won’t work, the pin/ getting pushed in slightly, and this is on military type connectors so it happens...)?

When I installed my slider I managed to rip the connector off when I was sliding the extrusion which is easy to do on this design. I ended up reassembling the pins in the reverse which caused the ?same issue you describe, os it possible the tech did this without you seeing it happen? ?Take a close look at the connector to see if there is any damage to it, this is an easy fix by looking at the elec schematic.?

<image0.jpeg>

Also take a quick look at where the cable enters the bottom of the extrusion, if it looks good then I would doubt there is a wiring issue inside unless it happened at the factory, bit who knows...

<image1.jpeg>

?if you have a meter you could check the continuity from the pin on the connector to the 2 wires on the end of the slide.

<image2.jpeg>

The plastic strip on top of the left rail is just there to prevent an accident short from an errent event, if it wasn’t there (or piece missing from damage) it shouldn’t cause an issue in itself, nothing is touching it.?

Regards, Mark

On Mar 7, 2021, at 7:28 PM, David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:

?

I agree you need more diagnosis before the panic sets in.? I doubt you will get a new table and given the way of the world, you might not have enough life expectancy to wait for the replacement.? Taking the sliding table off isn't a horrible job if it comes to that.? The sub base does the adjusting.? If the other off switches work, you should be functional until Felder fixes the problem.? The remote on is the real benefit so if that is working life won't be too bad.? Dave

---

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 6:34 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [FOG] New K940S issues

?

AJ,

In order to offer any help I need to understand this electrical connection. There should be two wires in the cable unless this stop switch is wired differently then the typical normally closed stop switches on felder machines.

I can understand using slider for one signal but not sure how the other signal is routed to the switch.

I assume slider and it’s base can be electrically isolated?(as rollers are in plastic cages)?providing 2 signal paths but that seems easy to short so likely not the case.

Anyhow, it is important to understand the isolation so I can understand the extent of the fix.

Imran

On Mar 7, 2021, at 1:38 PM, AJ Quinter <ajquinter@...> wrote:

?I posted here a little while back about an opportunity I had to purchase several Felder tools (lightly used saw, planer, jointer, dust collector, etc.).? It seemed like a great deal, but unfortunately things fell apart quickly when I stipulated in the bill of sale that the seller had to confirm that he was the legal owner of the equipment, free of liens or other encumbrances.

After that deal fell apart, I ended up ordering a new K940S with a 126" sliding table.? I have never owned a sliding table saw and although I own David Best's excellent survival guide, decided to have the machine commissioned by a Felder technician.

I received the saw and a couple of issues came up during the commissioning.? The outrigger and fence extrusions were packed with the sliding table.? During shipping these extrusions scratched the insulating tape on the underside of the sliding table.? The damage did not look like a big deal at the time.?

When the entire commissioning process was finished, I made a test cut and the stop button on the sliding table did not work (the start button worked fine).? Justin, the technician, indicated that the start button works with radio frequency, but the stop button works by conducting electricity through the sliding rails themselves.? The rails must need to be isolated in some manner to prevent the signal from shorting out to the machine base.? He indicated that the scratched insulating tape could be the issue (he tried fixing this with electrical tape, but didn't succeed), or it could be a damaged insulating coating on one of the many, many screws in the sliding table assembly.? He indicated that this was definitely a warranty issue.? He would need to come back and completely disassemble the sliding table to try to fix the problem.??

I am not at all thrilled with this idea!? Although Justin seemed very competent, I don't like the idea of someone disassembling and reassembling the factory assembled sliding table on site.? Obviously, this component is really the critical precision element on the whole machine.? I don't have clean space, fixtures, etc. for this operation to take place.? I am also quite concerned that when finished (and with my luck) nothing will be resolved!? Further, I am not thrilled about someone coming in and upending my shop for several days with this process.

One of the other issues I had is the wire connection between the sliding table and main saw cracked during installation.? Justin indicated that this was a relatively common issue, but obviously not ideal.? He checked in the electrical panel and indicated that there were no issues with functionality relating to the cracked connection.??

I would love to get some feedback from all of you regarding these issues.? How would you proceed?? What would you try to get Felder to do to remedy the situation?? How big of a deal is it that the stop button on the sliding table doesn't work???

Thanks so much for your help and opinions!


??

<damaged strip.jpg>

<cracked connection.jpg>