Screw holding is also an issue. ?One solution, that also lightens it, is to face lumber core plywood with a thin face of MDF.
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On May 21, 2020, at 9:21 AM, Jason Holtz < jholtzy@...> wrote:
There used to be "ultralight MDF", but I haven't seen it around for quite a while. I think it was using pine or basswood. It was particularly poor at holding fasteners. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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By the way, I just noticed that MSC has the plain Mitutoyo 6 inch on sale for $109,?
--
- Dave Rossetti, Santa Fe
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There used to be "ultralight MDF", but I haven't seen it around for quite a while. I think it was using pine or basswood. It was particularly poor at holding fasteners. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Cliff, seems like you're conflating issues vis-a-vis bolt stretch and lock washers.? ?The purpose of lock washers is to resist bolt rotation (loosening) under vibration.? ?They are indeed pointless in applications with little or no vibration.? But merely torqueing bolts does not obviate lock washers (or other anti-loosening methods like wiring or adhesives).? ?
To be more specific about movement, the principle failure mode of wood/bolt connections is that the bolt-clamped wood expands with increased moisture content (absorbed from atmospheric humidity), but the bolt does not stretch as the wood expands because metal is so much stronger than wood.? So the wood fibers crush (permanently deform) slightly.? Then when the wood returns to the original moisture content at which is was bolted, the wood has deformed slightly and is actually smaller than it was originally, hence the clamping force is reduced.? The magnitude and frequency of moisture cycling, crush strength of the wood species, dimension of clamped parts, etc. impacts the ultimate performance.??
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There is an Altendorf Duplex on Woodweb for $750.? You'd have to figure out how to mount it to a Felder though... Dave
I have one that I've never used...still in the box. Would sell for $1250 plus shipping.
Michael
michael@...
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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I have one that I've never used...still in the box. Would sell for $1250 plus shipping.
Michael
michael@...
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Re: Kappa 450 with a pro glide slider advice
Thanks Imran, I will definately? travel to see it before i purchase. My dealer here had suggested the same as you about removing the slider for transport, its for sale through another dealer who took it as a trade in and definately in great shape. like 1 man shop operated. I was just looking to see peoples opinions on the pro glide and try to get some info from people who have one possibly before i start booking flights etc to go view it and spend a decent amount on shipping it to me also..? Cheers Chris
On Thursday 21 May 2020, 15:20:08 GMT+1, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Chris,
I would not buy a saw without checking in person unless you know the seller. It can look nice and new but it is possible to destroy the slider without any sign of physical abuse.
Make sure the seller is able to disassemble and crate the saw and slider separately (unless short slider). I recently went thru this process. It can be done but need to be done with knowledge and care.
Imran?
On May 21, 2020, at 9:51 AM, Chris Kidney via groups.io <chrisdbaah@...> wrote: ? Thanks Dave, thats good to hear yes the saw is in great shape and has definately been looked after comes with DRO stops and rip-fence and plenty of supports for the table etc.. I was just concerned as to why they stopped making them,, My dealer had mentioned that they were slightly harder to align the slider as they were not as much adjustment as the Xroll.. I am sure some guys on here have one and hopefully can give some info as I have only seen pictures of this saw as it is in another state to where i live? and havent been able to see it in person , so any advice is appreciated Cheers Chris
|
I agree Cliff, access is always best and can actually be a design feature. Wood density has so much to do with this equation.
On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 9:49 AM Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq. < rohrabacher@...> wrote:
On 5/21/20 8:05 AM, habacomike via
wrote:
They are through screwed to the back post with machine screws. The hole in the back post will be plugged.
Over the decades I've put plenty of furniture and other wood
structure together with? machine bolts, This is what I've learned:
?In one short sentence:?? Machine bolts are unreliable in wood
when installed to be inaccessible later on.
Wood moves.? That's the greatest?? issue in steel hardware.?
Normally? to get a? machine bolt? to perform properly? one has to
torque it to some known spec. This stretches the bolt to a known
amount? falling within the? recovery curve of? the youngs modulus
for the bolt material.? The fact of the bolt stretching? obviates?
the need of use of a lock washer.
That is to say the bolt is deformed by stretching but when?
loosened? will recover it's dimensions? with out issue because?
the stretching? is inside the point? of deformation at which the
material would be permanently? deformed. .? There is a different?
youngs modulus of elasticity? for every? alloy and every?
material.?? IT is why? German engineers do not specify? lock
washers on their? fasteners.? They specify a torque.
Cheap shit? A36 alloy Steel Bolts sold to the retail consumer?
are? often an exception because? little attention is paid to the
alloy often called Chinesium.? China makes a great? amount of
steel from the? hammered off black scale?? ( that black shit on
hot rolled steel that you gotta remove to TIG it or Paint it).
Theoretically? the?? scale is the exact same alloy as the
underlying steel but? they get it from everywhere so? the term
"alloy" is? unhelpful.? It is usually OK steel for run-of-the-mill
work? but? is is unreliable for closely? specified work.
Anyway all that said,? the bolt? even when tightened to the
proper torque? to stretch it that little bit necessary to?
eliminate any need for lock washers? is still an issue in wood
because wood moves.? It moves in response to humidity and it?
creeps under pressure.
I've used oversize washers and backing plates and if they are big
enough? it lets me maintain that torque setting ? for a very long
time in very hard lumber.? But it still moves.? I have tried
Spring Washers ( marvelous little things)? and? that? does? work
better. But there's no perfect cure all pill.
Revisiting my work? years? even decades later I have? observes
that bolts I thought I had torqued properly? were? often? loose
and rattling around.?? Not always,? but often enough to discourage
me from? covering them with? plugs and making them inaccessible.
?
|
Re: Kappa 450 with a pro glide slider advice
Chris,
I would not buy a saw without checking in person unless you know the seller. It can look nice and new but it is possible to destroy the slider without any sign of physical abuse.
Make sure the seller is able to disassemble and crate the saw and slider separately (unless short slider). I recently went thru this process. It can be done but need to be done with knowledge and care.
Imran?
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On May 21, 2020, at 9:51 AM, Chris Kidney via groups.io <chrisdbaah@...> wrote: ? Thanks Dave, thats good to hear yes the saw is in great shape and has definately been looked after comes with DRO stops and rip-fence and plenty of supports for the table etc.. I was just concerned as to why they stopped making them,, My dealer had mentioned that they were slightly harder to align the slider as they were not as much adjustment as the Xroll.. I am sure some guys on here have one and hopefully can give some info as I have only seen pictures of this saw as it is in another state to where i live? and havent been able to see it in person , so any advice is appreciated Cheers Chris
|
Re: Kappa 450 with a pro glide slider advice
Chris,
As I searched for a used saw I came across at least couple of Kappa 450s. I was advised against these ax being orphan models that may not get a lot of support from Felder. They were also new models that can have issues. Some accessories also may not be compatible.
Given that you can buy proven models on the used market I stayed away from these.
Imran
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On May 21, 2020, at 9:25 AM, Chris Kidney via groups.io <chrisdbaah@...> wrote: ?Hello Guys
I am after a little advice I have come across a Kappa 450 with Pro glide slider and am hoping some of you here might be familar with it and be able to share your experience and knowledge of it? this particular machine is in excellent condition and looks to have done minimal work. I have checked with my local dealer and he has advised me that parts and guides for the table quite exspensive as they dont do Pro Glide anymore. Does anybody know why they stopped making it? Was it due to not being reliable? Iwould be really greatful if any of you who have a 450 could lend me some of your advice as I really am quite keen on the saw just want to know if there is anything i should be aware of?
Thanks in advance
Chris
|
Re: Kappa 450 with a pro glide slider advice
Thanks Dave, thats good to hear yes the saw is in great shape and has definately been looked after comes with DRO stops and rip-fence and plenty of supports for the table etc.. I was just concerned as to why they stopped making them,, My dealer had mentioned that they were slightly harder to align the slider as they were not as much adjustment as the Xroll.. I am sure some guys on here have one and hopefully can give some info as I have only seen pictures of this saw as it is in another state to where i live? and havent been able to see it in person , so any advice is appreciated Cheers Chris
|
On 5/21/20 8:05 AM, habacomike via
groups.io wrote:
They are through screwed to the back post with machine screws. The hole in the back post will be plugged.
Over the decades I've put plenty of furniture and other wood
structure together with? machine bolts, This is what I've learned:
?In one short sentence:?? Machine bolts are unreliable in wood
when installed to be inaccessible later on.
Wood moves.? That's the greatest?? issue in steel hardware.?
Normally? to get a? machine bolt? to perform properly? one has to
torque it to some known spec. This stretches the bolt to a known
amount? falling within the? recovery curve of? the youngs modulus
for the bolt material.? The fact of the bolt stretching? obviates?
the need of use of a lock washer.
That is to say the bolt is deformed by stretching but when?
loosened? will recover it's dimensions? with out issue because?
the stretching? is inside the point? of deformation at which the
material would be permanently? deformed. .? There is a different?
youngs modulus of elasticity? for every? alloy and every?
material.?? IT is why? German engineers do not specify? lock
washers on their? fasteners.? They specify a torque.
Cheap shit? A36 alloy Steel Bolts sold to the retail consumer?
are? often an exception because? little attention is paid to the
alloy often called Chinesium.? China makes a great? amount of
steel from the? hammered off black scale?? ( that black shit on
hot rolled steel that you gotta remove to TIG it or Paint it).
Theoretically? the?? scale is the exact same alloy as the
underlying steel but? they get it from everywhere so? the term
"alloy" is? unhelpful.? It is usually OK steel for run-of-the-mill
work? but? is is unreliable for closely? specified work.
Anyway all that said,? the bolt? even when tightened to the
proper torque? to stretch it that little bit necessary to?
eliminate any need for lock washers? is still an issue in wood
because wood moves.? It moves in response to humidity and it?
creeps under pressure.
I've used oversize washers and backing plates and if they are big
enough? it lets me maintain that torque setting ? for a very long
time in very hard lumber.? But it still moves.? I have tried
Spring Washers ( marvelous little things)? and? that? does? work
better. But there's no perfect cure all pill.
Revisiting my work? years? even decades later I have? observes
that bolts I thought I had torqued properly? were? often? loose
and rattling around.?? Not always,? but often enough to discourage
me from? covering them with? plugs and making them inaccessible.
?
|
Re: Kappa 450 with a pro glide slider advice
If the saw is in good condition, I'd not be afraid of the Pro glide.? It was more expensive to manufacture and supposedly a little more stout of build than the X roll.? The additional cost was not warranted in Felder's opinion but it wasn't an inferior set
up.? Dave
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Hello Guys
I am after a little advice I have come across a Kappa 450 with Pro glide slider and am hoping some of you here might be familar with it and be able to share your experience and knowledge of it? this particular machine is in excellent condition and looks to
have done minimal work. I have checked with my local dealer and he has advised me that parts and guides for the table quite exspensive as they dont do Pro Glide anymore. Does anybody know why they stopped making it? Was it due to not being reliable? Iwould
be really greatful if any of you who have a 450 could lend me some of your advice as I really am quite keen on the saw just want to know if there is anything i should be aware of?
Thanks in advance
Chris
|
I would use Loctite 242, that¡¯s the medium strength blue version. It can be taken back apart with some difficulty, but the screws shouldn¡¯t loosen on their own. Make sure both pieces, bolt and threaded insert are clean of any oil or such, you want good clean metal to metal or the loctite might not hold.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
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On May 21, 2020, at 5:05 AM, habacomike via groups.io <habacomike@...> wrote:
I¡¯m just about done building my set of dining chairs. The chair backs are held to the back post with threaded inserts inset into the back. They are through screwed to the back post with machine screws. The hole in the back post will be plugged.
Here¡¯s the question ¡ª given that it will be impossible to get to the machine screw to tighten it should it loosen, should I lactate the threaded insert to keep the screw snug?
Mike
|
Kappa 450 with a pro glide slider advice
Hello Guys
I am after a little advice I have come across a Kappa 450 with Pro glide slider and am hoping some of you here might be familar with it and be able to share your experience and knowledge of it? this particular machine is in excellent condition and looks to have done minimal work. I have checked with my local dealer and he has advised me that parts and guides for the table quite exspensive as they dont do Pro Glide anymore. Does anybody know why they stopped making it? Was it due to not being reliable? Iwould be really greatful if any of you who have a 450 could lend me some of your advice as I really am quite keen on the saw just want to know if there is anything i should be aware of?
Thanks in advance
Chris
|
Not that great on cutting tools either but if warranted then not sure of any viable alternatives. I sure would like to know if a lighter substitute is available.
Imran
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On May 21, 2020, at 9:02 AM, habacomike via groups.io <habacomike@...> wrote: ? It is great for most veneer work. ?If only it wasn¡¯t so heavy¡
And the dust is a big drawback.
I use MDF when doing marquetry or any form of veneer work, only because of it's stability and total lack of expanding or contracting.. Paul Schurch who was my marquetarian teacher for years was the one who had me use MDF for my projects for that reason.
Yes most of us do mainly because of the fine dust. Its gotten a bad reputation from inept woodworkers that use it in a wrong application and don't understand how to work with?it. Fine Woodworking and other mags have done articles over years on the use of MDF for extreme stability in museums. Just food for thought. Few research or read the spec sheets which explain the differences. This in Brett case is where a good sales?rep comes into play. My sales guy has over 40 years in the business and understands the products he?sells. I've met a lot?that have just started that are trained sales people that might be fine selling a refrigerator?but don't have a clue about wood or sheet goods. I¡¯ve used a bit of MDF for veneering and marquetry projects, but I just buy the stuff that my hardwood supplier carries.? Much better than that at the Borg.? Frankly, I¡¯d prefer to avoid the stuff.
Mike
Brett,
I was just kidding, not really putting the product down. My shop door have MDO for exterior cladding and are doing just fine after 18 yrs. Although, that is an ancient product.
I watch this old house and read JLC online letters - recently started getting their print magazine - but had not heard of exterior MDF. Fact that you prefer or PVC for trim is worth knowing.
Last time I looked for siding options I discovered a product made out of ash, cannot remember the name but it was rated for ground contact. IIRC, my exploration stopped when I learned each board was $60. This however is something to consider for trim. Not sure how it compared to marine grade MDF.
Imran? ? Okay, I give?up, if David Best hasn't an answer, the point must be moot. hahaha!
Imran - yes, I've used and been pleasantly?surprised at Extira?MDF for exterior?trimming, even clad a set of church doors in it. However the amount of typical MDF sag and creep (i.e. non structural uses only) still applies even to the exterior resiny stuff.? But I seem to like it better than PVC, especially when it comes to thermal expansion.?
SL (Stephen) - aha! yet ANOTHER "Medite" variant, but that is structural? Another product to investigate for applications I didn't even know I needed.
I guess most folks on this forum are like myself - MDF isn't really the "core" of the business processes, thanks for the engagement just the same. On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 4:27 PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: Probably all epoxy with a bit of saw dust ?
Imran ?Marine grade MDF - now ³Ù³ó±ð°ù±ð¡¯²õ a concept !!!
Brett, I just recently discovered that there is such a thing as exterior MDF....maybe that will float your boat ..lol!? Regards? Stephen?
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
--
|
It is great for most veneer work. ?If only it wasn¡¯t so heavy¡
And the dust is a big drawback.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I use MDF when doing marquetry or any form of veneer work, only because of it's stability and total lack of expanding or contracting.. Paul Schurch who was my marquetarian teacher for years was the one who had me use MDF for my projects for that reason.
Yes most of us do mainly because of the fine dust. Its gotten a bad reputation from inept woodworkers that use it in a wrong application and don't understand how to work with?it. Fine Woodworking and other mags have done articles over years on the use of MDF for extreme stability in museums. Just food for thought. Few research or read the spec sheets which explain the differences. This in Brett case is where a good sales?rep comes into play. My sales guy has over 40 years in the business and understands the products he?sells. I've met a lot?that have just started that are trained sales people that might be fine selling a refrigerator?but don't have a clue about wood or sheet goods. I¡¯ve used a bit of MDF for veneering and marquetry projects, but I just buy the stuff that my hardwood supplier carries.? Much better than that at the Borg.? Frankly, I¡¯d prefer to avoid the stuff.
Mike
Brett,
I was just kidding, not really putting the product down. My shop door have MDO for exterior cladding and are doing just fine after 18 yrs. Although, that is an ancient product.
I watch this old house and read JLC online letters - recently started getting their print magazine - but had not heard of exterior MDF. Fact that you prefer or PVC for trim is worth knowing.
Last time I looked for siding options I discovered a product made out of ash, cannot remember the name but it was rated for ground contact. IIRC, my exploration stopped when I learned each board was $60. This however is something to consider for trim. Not sure how it compared to marine grade MDF.
Imran? ? Okay, I give?up, if David Best hasn't an answer, the point must be moot. hahaha!
Imran - yes, I've used and been pleasantly?surprised at Extira?MDF for exterior?trimming, even clad a set of church doors in it. However the amount of typical MDF sag and creep (i.e. non structural uses only) still applies even to the exterior resiny stuff.? But I seem to like it better than PVC, especially when it comes to thermal expansion.?
SL (Stephen) - aha! yet ANOTHER "Medite" variant, but that is structural? Another product to investigate for applications I didn't even know I needed.
I guess most folks on this forum are like myself - MDF isn't really the "core" of the business processes, thanks for the engagement just the same. On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 4:27 PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: Probably all epoxy with a bit of saw dust ?
Imran ?Marine grade MDF - now ³Ù³ó±ð°ù±ð¡¯²õ a concept !!!
Brett, I just recently discovered that there is such a thing as exterior MDF....maybe that will float your boat ..lol!? Regards? Stephen?
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
--
|
When we experience loose or worn threads we dab yellow glue and/or urethane glue in place of loctite, based on how much trouble we've had undoing other people's sloppy repair jobs, it works pretty well.
|
I use MDF when doing marquetry or any form of veneer work, only because of it's stability and total lack of expanding or contracting.. Paul Schurch who was my marquetarian teacher for years was the one who had me use MDF for my projects for that reason.
On Thursday, May 21, 2020, 05:38:08 AM PDT, jmkserv@... <jmkserv@...> wrote:
Yes most of us do mainly because of the fine dust. Its gotten a bad reputation from inept woodworkers that use it in a wrong application and don't understand how to work with?it. Fine Woodworking and other mags have done articles over years on the use of MDF for extreme stability in museums. Just food for thought. Few research or read the spec sheets which explain the differences. This in Brett case is where a good sales?rep comes into play. My sales guy has over 40 years in the business and understands the products he?sells. I've met a lot?that have just started that are trained sales people that might be fine selling a refrigerator?but don't have a clue about wood or sheet goods.
I¡¯ve used a bit of MDF for veneering and marquetry projects, but I just buy the stuff that my hardwood supplier carries.? Much better than that at the Borg.? Frankly, I¡¯d prefer to avoid the stuff.
Mike
Brett,
I was just kidding, not really putting the product down. My shop door have MDO for exterior cladding and are doing just fine after 18 yrs. Although, that is an ancient product.
I watch this old house and read JLC online letters - recently started getting their print magazine - but had not heard of exterior MDF. Fact that you prefer or PVC for trim is worth knowing.
Last time I looked for siding options I discovered a product made out of ash, cannot remember the name but it was rated for ground contact. IIRC, my exploration stopped when I learned each board was $60. This however is something to consider for trim. Not sure how it compared to marine grade MDF.
Imran? ? Okay, I give?up, if David Best hasn't an answer, the point must be moot. hahaha!
Imran - yes, I've used and been pleasantly?surprised at Extira?MDF for exterior?trimming, even clad a set of church doors in it. However the amount of typical MDF sag and creep (i.e. non structural uses only) still applies even to the exterior resiny stuff.? But I seem to like it better than PVC, especially when it comes to thermal expansion.?
SL (Stephen) - aha! yet ANOTHER "Medite" variant, but that is structural? Another product to investigate for applications I didn't even know I needed.
I guess most folks on this forum are like myself - MDF isn't really the "core" of the business processes, thanks for the engagement just the same. On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 4:27 PM imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: Probably all epoxy with a bit of saw dust ?
Imran ?Marine grade MDF - now ³Ù³ó±ð°ù±ð¡¯²õ a concept !!!
Brett, I just recently discovered that there is such a thing as exterior MDF....maybe that will float your boat ..lol!? Regards? Stephen?
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
|
Re: Drawer Notching for Blum
I've always left the back slat of the drawer box cut short enough where notching is not needed at all.. The bottom is set in a dado groove on the sides and front.? The bottom is secured to the back of the drawer box with either screws or staples..In all my years, I've never once had a bottom fail or come loose.
On Wednesday, May 20, 2020, 12:48:32 PM PDT, joelgelman via groups.io <joelgelman@...> wrote:
I remember watching Frank Klausz make a step stool to include dovetails and sliding dovetail in very little time at a show way back when American Woodworker was involved. ?Talented guy with hand tool skills. I was looking at his video on Youtube.
I always wanted the full dovetails to be seen in the rear if the drawer would be pulled out all the way. ?With the cut off the back method, you do not get that bottom cap, and you have to remember to not do that cut at the bottom ?avoid a missing bottom corner of the side panel.
However, definitely not a big deal as that area really never gets attention. ?Maybe I will change the way I make drawers in the future, although that shaper does make quick work of notching. ?To me, one advantage is being able to remove-replace the drawer bottom as an option. ?Appreciate the input. ??
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Dave Rossetti
Jason Holtz
imran