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You're right about that, Jamie. But we can't have 50.000V on our boats, max 48 or 96 V... I tried to look up the manufacturer, but without success. Assume it's just another Shenzhen backyard company. Please enlighten me, if some of you have ANY experience with this kind of motors ! I am going to Guangdong Province this weekend (the center of manufacturing in China), so if any really reasonable ideas, I would be able to go for inspection of a supplier.
Was that a bomb to you ???!!
P? fre., den 7. maj 2021 klokken 1:03, jamie.schlinkmann@... <jamie.schlinkmann@...> skrev: I'm sure some people will cringe....but these large outrunner drone motors are very efficient. There are several manufacturers of motors like this:
?
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APS 24050 Outrunner BLDC motor 50KV 40KW Paramotor
alienpowersystem.com
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This motor will get into the desired RPM range at 48V and below 10kW it will be very efficient. Of course it will also be able to produce more power when needed. Also there is a series of open-source drives available on the market that are very well designed...
?
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Welcome to the Home of E-Motion! What ever is on your mind, the Vesc-Environment will help you to achieve your goals faster. E-Motion is the key to success for the most innovative products of the near future.
vesc-project.com
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I know many will say they are not hardened for the marine environment but they certainly can be. If I were doing this kind of conversion on a saildrive I would look hard at components like this.
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Jamie
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Too late for me but I have been thinking on the same track: I have recently made some orders from this company:
Guangdong Shinegle New Energy Technologies Co., Ltd.
and am waiting on the shipment to arrive. I am testing their motor controller, programmer, throttle, and a couple of different motors, one 4kw and one 8kw. Part of my hypothesis is that while the sevcon Gen4 is awesome, maybe we don¡¯t need quite that expansive a feature set. It¡¯s not a road vehicle after all. ?
I also looked at brushless pmac motors used in drones and electric scooters. Mostly they seemed to not deliver suitable torque, at least as specified.?
But either way I think direct drive of a sail drive with no transmission is an unusual case. ?Is it just to avoid extra mounting hardware that you don¡¯t want a transmission of some sort? Would you put some kind of thrust bearing inline with the shaft? I think one of the risks with direct drive in a non-sail drive/v-drive config is that the electric motors aren¡¯t designed for any kind of significant axial load. Would the sail drive remove that concern?
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On May 6, 2021, at 15:01, Carsten via groups.io <Carstensemail@...> wrote:
? You're right about that, Jamie. But we can't have 50.000V on our boats, max 48 or 96 V... I tried to look up the manufacturer, but without success. Assume it's just another Shenzhen backyard company. Please enlighten me, if some of you have ANY experience with this kind of motors ! I am going to Guangdong Province this weekend (the center of manufacturing in China), so if any really reasonable ideas, I would be able to go for inspection of a supplier.
Was that a bomb to you ???!!
P? fre., den 7. maj 2021 klokken 1:03, jamie.schlinkmann@... <jamie.schlinkmann@...> skrev: I'm sure some people will cringe....but these large outrunner drone motors are very efficient. There are several manufacturers of motors like this:
?
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APS 24050 Outrunner BLDC motor 50KV 40KW Paramotor
alienpowersystem.com
|
This motor will get into the desired RPM range at 48V and below 10kW it will be very efficient. Of course it will also be able to produce more power when needed. Also there is a series of open-source drives available on the market that are very well designed...
?
|
Welcome to the Home of E-Motion! What ever is on your mind, the Vesc-Environment will help you to achieve your goals faster. E-Motion is the key to success for the most innovative products of the near future.
vesc-project.com
|
I know many will say they are not hardened for the marine environment but they certainly can be. If I were doing this kind of conversion on a saildrive I would look hard at components like this.
?
Jamie
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Yeah, well, details matter---look at the specs on that website. On one line claiming: ¡°KV: 50¡± On another: MaxVolt: 48S (200.6v) On another: MaxAmp: 190a On another: MaxPower: 40000w. So, it appears they claim max power at around 200v, 190amp with about 40kw power. NoLoadCurrent: Blank Resistance: Blank ? And not a dang thing about what the no load speed is, though they do spec: Torque: 68Nm Assuming 68Nm @ 190a, then Kt ~ 0.36N-m / amp And since Kt (N-m/amp) = Kb (V/r/sec), we have Kb ~ 0.36v/r/sec And assuming this torque is also with V~200v, then: ????????????? W(maxpwr) ~ 200v / (0.36v/r/s) ~ 556rad/sec ~ 5300RPM ²Ñ²¹²â²ú±ð¡ ? Specs matter¡when missing, suspicious or non-sensical, beware. ? -MT ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Carsten via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 3:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Ang.:Re: [electricboats] One engine down...looking for solutions/suggestions ? You're right about that, Jamie. But we can't have 50.000V on our boats, max 48 or 96 V... I tried to look up the manufacturer, but without success. Assume it's just another Shenzhen backyard company. Please enlighten me, if some of you have ANY experience with this kind of motors ! I am going to Guangdong Province this weekend (the center of manufacturing in China), so if any really reasonable ideas, I would be able to go for inspection of a supplier. Was that a bomb to you ???!! I'm sure some people will cringe....but these large outrunner drone motors are very efficient. There are several manufacturers of motors like this: | APS 24050 Outrunner BLDC motor 50KV 40KW Paramotor |
This motor will get into the desired RPM range at 48V and below 10kW it will be very efficient. Of course it will also be able to produce more power when needed. Also there is a series of open-source drives available on the market that are very well designed... Welcome to the Home of E-Motion! What ever is on your mind, the Vesc-Environment will help you to achieve your goals faster. E-Motion is the key to success for the most innovative products of the near future. |
I know many will say they are not hardened for the marine environment but they certainly can be. If I were doing this kind of conversion on a saildrive I would look hard at components like this.
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Alas, I didn¡¯t consider resistive loss¡but then, that¡¯s difficult to figure given the lack of detail. ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 4:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Ang.:Re: [electricboats] One engine down...looking for solutions/suggestions? Yeah, well, details matter---look at the specs on that website. On one line claiming: ¡°KV: 50¡± On another: MaxVolt: 48S (200.6v) On another: MaxAmp: 190a On another: MaxPower: 40000w. So, it appears they claim max power at around 200v, 190amp with about 40kw power. NoLoadCurrent: Blank Resistance: Blank ? And not a dang thing about what the no load speed is, though they do spec: Torque: 68Nm Assuming 68Nm @ 190a, then Kt ~ 0.36N-m / amp And since Kt (N-m/amp) = Kb (V/r/sec), we have Kb ~ 0.36v/r/sec And assuming this torque is also with V~200v, then: ????????????? W(maxpwr) ~ 200v / (0.36v/r/s) ~ 556rad/sec ~ 5300RPM ²Ñ²¹²â²ú±ð¡ ? Specs matter¡when missing, suspicious or non-sensical, beware. ? -MT ? ? ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Carsten via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 3:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Ang.:Re: [electricboats] One engine down...looking for solutions/suggestions ? You're right about that, Jamie. But we can't have 50.000V on our boats, max 48 or 96 V... I tried to look up the manufacturer, but without success. Assume it's just another Shenzhen backyard company. Please enlighten me, if some of you have ANY experience with this kind of motors ! I am going to Guangdong Province this weekend (the center of manufacturing in China), so if any really reasonable ideas, I would be able to go for inspection of a supplier. Was that a bomb to you ???!! I'm sure some people will cringe....but these large outrunner drone motors are very efficient. There are several manufacturers of motors like this: | APS 24050 Outrunner BLDC motor 50KV 40KW Paramotor |
This motor will get into the desired RPM range at 48V and below 10kW it will be very efficient. Of course it will also be able to produce more power when needed. Also there is a series of open-source drives available on the market that are very well designed... Welcome to the Home of E-Motion! What ever is on your mind, the Vesc-Environment will help you to achieve your goals faster. E-Motion is the key to success for the most innovative products of the near future. |
I know many will say they are not hardened for the marine environment but they certainly can be. If I were doing this kind of conversion on a saildrive I would look hard at components like this.
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You're right Myles about missing information. I have found it pretty hard to get a lot of information from most companies except the ones that don't have the motors you want. I think your calcs based on the assumptions show that it is potentially a usable motor for this application though. I am certainly not suggesting anyone tries to get 40kW from the motor continuously. As I said in my original post, at or below 10kW I think it would be an efficient motor.
I am not advocating for any company or certainly not for getting chinese motors, but we have to face the facts that a lot of products are coming from there. There is a German company hacker motoren that makes similar motors but not as big. They are simple motors, repairable, high-torque, lightweight, efficient, etc.
Jamie
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When the spec on the motor says 50KV, they mean RPM/volt, not kilo-volt. This is typical for the model airplane or car. Note that they spec 48v max voltage.
Search for 'electric motor kv' or this:
-Terry
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On 5/6/21 6:01 PM, Carsten via groups.io wrote: You're right about that, Jamie.
But we can't have 50.000V on our boats, max 48 or 96 V...
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My error - the voltage spec is max 200.6, (48 cells * 4.17v). I scanned too quickly.
-Terry
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On 5/7/21 9:53 AM, Terry Slattery wrote: When the spec on the motor says 50KV, they mean RPM/volt, not kilo-volt. This is typical for the model airplane or car. Note that they spec 48v max voltage.
Search for 'electric motor kv' or this:
????-Terry
On 5/6/21 6:01 PM, Carsten via groups.io wrote:
You're right about that, Jamie.
But we can't have 50.000V on our boats, max 48 or 96 V...
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Direct coupled motor :
For a saildrive, it might require a flexible joint, if the motor is mounted right on top of the saildrive vertical shaft. This depends on your alignment skills. It could even be "free floating" with rubber bushings mounted to a motor frame.
The horisontal shaft in the lower part of the saildrive has a thrust bearing, so no need for an extra.
For a shaft drive, a thrust bearing IS required before the flexible joint connecting the motor, of course. This could be a double spheric roller bearing. Alignment skills are mandatory here.
Cheers, Carsten
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Look into a torque arm with a solid coupling. Alignment will always be assured.
Direct coupled motor :
For a saildrive, it might require a flexible joint, if the motor is mounted right on top of the saildrive vertical shaft. This depends on your alignment skills. It could even be "free floating" with rubber bushings mounted to a motor frame.
The horisontal shaft in the lower part of the saildrive has a thrust bearing, so no need for an extra.
For a shaft drive, a thrust bearing IS required before the flexible joint connecting the motor, of course. This could be a double spheric roller bearing. Alignment skills are mandatory here.
Cheers, Carsten
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Thanks, that makes sense. ?
was thinking I would build "play" into the system and if I mounted it on the four corners of top of the Sail-Drive transmission casing then I would have a method for either adjusting those screws or the face plate screws for the electric motor. ?Would make a shaft coupling from engine drive onto the vertical shaft, place engine loosely mounted on mounting plate, then spin prop allowing motor to "settle" onto the vertical shaft. ?When no further discernible motor motion, I would tighten the mounting screws. ?
In my mind this works, likely the real life application would not be this easy. ?
--
Flip
42' Catamaran
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I think mosslanding's?idea is more reliable. The motor bearings can easily support the weight of the motor. A torque arm that is flexible in the radial and axial directions, but rigid in the tangential direction is sure to work. Look at the way encoders are mounted.
Thanks, that makes sense. ?
was thinking I would build "play" into the system and if I mounted it on the four corners of top of the Sail-Drive transmission casing then I would have a method for either adjusting those screws or the face plate screws for the electric motor.? Would make a shaft coupling from engine drive onto the vertical shaft, place engine loosely mounted on mounting plate, then spin prop allowing motor to "settle" onto the vertical shaft.? When no further discernible motor motion, I would tighten the mounting screws. ?
In my mind this works, likely the real life application would not be this easy. ?
--
Flip
42' Catamaran
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Jamie Schlinkmann