Re: question about stoves on e-boats
Alcohol stoves are great but finding a decent one since Origo stopped making them is hard. The Wallas on the the other hand, is available and easy to use.
Paul J. Thompson
Information Technology?Manager
Henry Brooks Co. (t/a Bathroom Direct)
M 64 21 275 5001(txt only please)?F?64 9 913 3113?
E?paul@...
PO Box 58031, Botany, New Zealand 2163
5 Smales Road, East Tamaki, Manukau City
? ?
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and all copies from your system.On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 8:50?AM Scott E Erdman via <seerdman= [email protected]> wrote:
Thanks Paul, this makes sense. Seeing the prevalence of alcohol stoves in the boat space vs. backpacking and RV stuff where propane and other related fuels are the norm raised a question for me. It makes sense since boats have more sealed
compartments or spaces with limited air circulation so you need to be careful. I own a VW Westfalia and the kitchen has two burner propane and a dometic propane and electric fridge all connected into the house propane tank underneath the van.
?
?
?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2023 3:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [electricboats] question about stoves on e-boats
?
Lithium (LiFePo4) don't gas. Lead Acid (AGMs) do give of hydrogen if being over charged.? For cooking I'm using an induction hob when solar is plentiful and a
Wallas diesel stove which I run on kerosene on days which don't have good solar. I'd never have LPG onboard my boat as I've see more than one boat explode do to LPG problems.
Paul J. Thompson
Information Technology?Manager
Henry Brooks Co. (t/a Bathroom Direct)
M
64 21 275 5001(txt only please)?F?64
9 913 3113?
E?paul@...
PO Box 58031, Botany, New Zealand 2163
5 Smales Road, East Tamaki, Manukau City
? ?
The information in this email and any attachments is confidential.
This information may be subject to legal, professional, or other privilege.
It must not be disclosed to any person without our authority.
If you are not the intended recipient you are not authorised to and must
not disclose, copy, distribute, or retain this message or any part of it.
Please return this message to the sender immediately and delete any
and all copies from your system.
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On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 8:19?AM Scott E Erdman via <seerdman=[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Folks,
Another question – the boat that I’m looking to purchase is a Pearson 10M that has been converted to electric drive via a bank of Lithium cells for the drive and two AGM batteries
for the house functions. The owner removed the stove it came with and sold it to help finance the electric conversion. In it’s place there is now the stowable countertop that would have covered the stove, the mounting spots from the gimble and a truck fridge
which will come with the boat. Overall this is fine with me as I don’t really plan to need to bake a bunch and using a simple cartridge stove mounted on a holder that is gimbled will be fine for my purposes. My question is this – my understanding is that alcohol
stoves are common on sailboats to reduce the potential to have build up of explosive gasses from, for example, propane. I have a two burner propane Coleman folding green camp stove that works great and sees very little use which I would love to put in this
spot. An alternative would be a butane stove or even an induction stove. Is there any concern about use of such a stove igniting gasses from the Lithium batteries in the bank that resides in the quarterberth on the opposite side but which is in the same space
as the galley (i.e. not separated by a bulkhead). What is the safety concern for Lithium cells ? If they are in good shape and have enough air circulation is that enough or are there other concerns that might encourage use of induction, despite the power drain
it can create.
?
Thanks,
Scott
?
|
Re: question about stoves on e-boats
Thanks Paul, this makes sense. Seeing the prevalence of alcohol stoves in the boat space vs. backpacking and RV stuff where propane and other related fuels are the norm raised a question for me. It makes sense since boats have more sealed
compartments or spaces with limited air circulation so you need to be careful. I own a VW Westfalia and the kitchen has two burner propane and a dometic propane and electric fridge all connected into the house propane tank underneath the van.
?
?
?
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2023 3:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [electricboats] question about stoves on e-boats
?
Lithium (LiFePo4) don't gas. Lead Acid (AGMs) do give of hydrogen if being over charged.? For cooking I'm using an induction hob when solar is plentiful and a
Wallas diesel stove which I run on kerosene on days which don't have good solar. I'd never have LPG onboard my boat as I've see more than one boat explode do to LPG problems.
Paul J. Thompson
Information Technology?Manager
Henry Brooks Co. (t/a Bathroom Direct)
M
64 21 275 5001(txt only please)?F?64
9 913 3113?
E?paul@...
PO Box 58031, Botany, New Zealand 2163
5 Smales Road, East Tamaki, Manukau City
? ?
The information in this email and any attachments is confidential.
This information may be subject to legal, professional, or other privilege.
It must not be disclosed to any person without our authority.
If you are not the intended recipient you are not authorised to and must
not disclose, copy, distribute, or retain this message or any part of it.
Please return this message to the sender immediately and delete any
and all copies from your system.
?
?
On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 8:19?AM Scott E Erdman via <seerdman=[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Folks,
Another question – the boat that I’m looking to purchase is a Pearson 10M that has been converted to electric drive via a bank of Lithium cells for the drive and two AGM batteries
for the house functions. The owner removed the stove it came with and sold it to help finance the electric conversion. In it’s place there is now the stowable countertop that would have covered the stove, the mounting spots from the gimble and a truck fridge
which will come with the boat. Overall this is fine with me as I don’t really plan to need to bake a bunch and using a simple cartridge stove mounted on a holder that is gimbled will be fine for my purposes. My question is this – my understanding is that alcohol
stoves are common on sailboats to reduce the potential to have build up of explosive gasses from, for example, propane. I have a two burner propane Coleman folding green camp stove that works great and sees very little use which I would love to put in this
spot. An alternative would be a butane stove or even an induction stove. Is there any concern about use of such a stove igniting gasses from the Lithium batteries in the bank that resides in the quarterberth on the opposite side but which is in the same space
as the galley (i.e. not separated by a bulkhead). What is the safety concern for Lithium cells ? If they are in good shape and have enough air circulation is that enough or are there other concerns that might encourage use of induction, despite the power drain
it can create.
?
Thanks,
Scott
?
|
Re: question about stoves on e-boats
Lithium (LiFePo4) don't gas. Lead Acid (AGMs) do give of hydrogen if being over charged.? For cooking I'm using an induction hob when solar is plentiful and a Wallas diesel stove which I run on kerosene on days which don't have good solar. I'd never have LPG onboard my boat as I've see more than one boat explode do to LPG problems.
Paul J. Thompson
Information Technology?Manager
Henry Brooks Co. (t/a Bathroom Direct)
M 64 21 275 5001(txt only please)?F?64 9 913 3113?
E?paul@...
PO Box 58031, Botany, New Zealand 2163
5 Smales Road, East Tamaki, Manukau City
? ?
The information in this email and any attachments is confidential.
This information may be subject to legal, professional, or other privilege.
It must not be disclosed to any person without our authority.
If you are not the intended recipient you are not authorised to and must
not disclose, copy, distribute, or retain this message or any part of it.
Please return this message to the sender immediately and delete any
and all copies from your system.On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 8:19?AM Scott E Erdman via <seerdman= [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Folks,
Another question – the boat that I’m looking to purchase is a Pearson 10M that has been converted to electric drive via a bank of Lithium cells for the drive and two AGM batteries for the house functions. The owner removed the stove it
came with and sold it to help finance the electric conversion. In it’s place there is now the stowable countertop that would have covered the stove, the mounting spots from the gimble and a truck fridge which will come with the boat. Overall this is fine with
me as I don’t really plan to need to bake a bunch and using a simple cartridge stove mounted on a holder that is gimbled will be fine for my purposes. My question is this – my understanding is that alcohol stoves are common on sailboats to reduce the potential
to have build up of explosive gasses from, for example, propane. I have a two burner propane Coleman folding green camp stove that works great and sees very little use which I would love to put in this spot. An alternative would be a butane stove or even an
induction stove. Is there any concern about use of such a stove igniting gasses from the Lithium batteries in the bank that resides in the quarterberth on the opposite side but which is in the same space as the galley (i.e. not separated by a bulkhead). What
is the safety concern for Lithium cells ? If they are in good shape and have enough air circulation is that enough or are there other concerns that might encourage use of induction, despite the power drain it can create.
?
Thanks,
Scott
?
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Re: question about stoves on e-boats
My understanding is that lithium batteries do not emit any gas, except under extraordinary conditions (thermal runaway).
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question about stoves on e-boats
Hi Folks,
Another question – the boat that I’m looking to purchase is a Pearson 10M that has been converted to electric drive via a bank of Lithium cells for the drive and two AGM batteries for the house functions. The owner removed the stove it
came with and sold it to help finance the electric conversion. In it’s place there is now the stowable countertop that would have covered the stove, the mounting spots from the gimble and a truck fridge which will come with the boat. Overall this is fine with
me as I don’t really plan to need to bake a bunch and using a simple cartridge stove mounted on a holder that is gimbled will be fine for my purposes. My question is this – my understanding is that alcohol stoves are common on sailboats to reduce the potential
to have build up of explosive gasses from, for example, propane. I have a two burner propane Coleman folding green camp stove that works great and sees very little use which I would love to put in this spot. An alternative would be a butane stove or even an
induction stove. Is there any concern about use of such a stove igniting gasses from the Lithium batteries in the bank that resides in the quarterberth on the opposite side but which is in the same space as the galley (i.e. not separated by a bulkhead). What
is the safety concern for Lithium cells ? If they are in good shape and have enough air circulation is that enough or are there other concerns that might encourage use of induction, despite the power drain it can create.
?
Thanks,
Scott
?
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Re: Advice for electric conversion
Okay, I've attached a pdf of my conversion from the 30+ year old really expensive parts Volvo Piece of iron to the Thunderstruck AC 34 for your?entertainment. I have learned a lot since then and am now on my 3rd set of batteries with which I am pleased. I've also attached a photo of the top of the lower section of a VP 120s saildrive and am now thinking what Randy is proposing would be a great way to go. the shaft sticking up from the saildrive is actually a small jackshaft and slips onto the splines that are sticking out of the very top of the loewer unit. A new plate in place of all the parts of the upper section of the saildrive with a much simpler bracket?and coupling?method,? eliminating the friction loss of the original transmission, shifting issues etc. would seem to be a much better way to go.
Please please please let us all know if this works out and take?and share pictures. Cheers, Ric
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Re: Advice for electric conversion
Hi Marcel, I did this part back in early 2014 and am answering from memory. When I got the old motor out I found out the SD input shaft had a fairly well known issue of the splines being worn out. I got a new input shaft and gear and the machine shop boarded out a standard shaft coupling to go on the new shaft. I got a standard matching coupling for the AC 34 motor shaft. I also installed a “drive saver” flexible coupling between the ridged shaft couplings. I then took a ton of measurements ?and drew up an aluminum bracket with lots of possible adjustment ?that I could bolt to the original VP motor mounts. I had end plates made to bolt to the motor that had ears to drill and bolt to the large bracket. The motor mounts had some side to side movement and the motor end plate ears allowed fore, aft and vertical adjustment. I was able to align the two shaft couplings to within 2 thousandths which I figured with the drive saver in place was more than sufficient. This alignment did take almost a full day but I felt good about it when done. Since I’ve now got a couple hundred hours on it, it must be okay.
If I had it to do over again I would probably put a belt sheave on both shafts and make the mounting a bit easier. I would also figure out how to remove the clutches and reduction gearing inside the transmission and be able to use both forward and reverse directly from the electric motor.? Hope this helps. Cheers, Ric
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Re: Outboard Sizing Help Needed
The outboard cavitation plate should be even with the bottom of the boat. Mounting a motor above the plate will not work as intended since water flow will be turbulent.?
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Re: Outboard Sizing Help Needed
Overall efficiency depends on several factors, including the motor controller(s), the amount of drag in the water, and the propeller. It's really helpful if you can measure the power used by your motor(s) in different circumstances, and when trying out modifications.
Trolling motor controllers vary widely in efficiency. The new electronic ones are a huge improvement over the old-school resistors and switch type.
When you start using trolling motors for cruising instead of just positioning, then the drag of the motor and shaft becomes a significant factor in the overall efficiency. I use a 600W Haswing Protruar with my little trimaran, and I was able to reduce the energy needed to go 5mph by nearly 20% by adding an airplane fairing (for landing struts on kit planes) around the motor shaft, a nose cone, and an 11x6 APC propeller. You might want to look at sturdier after market trolling motor propellers for your heavier boat.
Another advantage of two electric motors is that you can have one that works best for fishing, and the other that is adapted for cruising. The fishing motor can also be a backup or augment the cruising motor. It sounds like you'd like them to share the same battery, so I think other things being equal, using one motor is more efficient than using two. But the benefits of having two motors available have already been stated.
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Re: Outboard Sizing Help Needed
Two motors versus one wins on redundancy.? But you're already going to at least one additional motor to get some redundancy... three/four motors is easily past a point of diminishing returns.
Downsides of two versus one motor (same total power) is more more cost, more weight and more drag.? The last two are probably not that large of a consideration given the actual numbers involved.
Possibly you could run a 24V or 48V motor from 36V with an appropriate DC-DC converter.? Downsides being some loss of efficiency (~10%) and an additional point of potential failure.? And those are harder to find at higher power levels, and costs go up beyond 1kW.
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Re: Outboard Sizing Help Needed
Yes the current trolling motor is deck mounted on the front and used for boat positioning when fishing.?
Your ideas of a pod type motor or another deck mount in the rear seem to be the best option.
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After assessing all the power option I think I need to stick with 36 volts. Unfortunately they don’t make 48 volt trolling motors with the features I need up front and I don’t want three separate systems, 48v, 36v, and 12v.
What are you thoughts on twin 36 volt motors vs a single in regards to efficiency?
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Re: Outboard Sizing Help Needed
Something like this might work:
Granted most of that style of motor are just for trolling.? But possibly a 'pod'-style
electric motor, mounted on something attached to the transom (one a side) that
can be flipped up when not in use:
Or combine the two ideas and see if a smallish pod motor can be mounted like
shown in that picture?
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Re: a couple of questions
I agree with this.? I have left my battery (48V LiFePo4, 280AH) on the boat stored outside for the winter in NE Ohio.? Last season they were at something like 53.25 volts when I put the boat way and 53.24V in spring after 6 months of no inputs or outputs. ?? Rock solid.? I have a Victron 712 monitor with Bluetooth and I would just drive by the boat and check the condition from my phone without getting out of my car.
My battery is made from prismatic cells and was assembled in place on the boat.? Removing it from the boat is not practical and would require disassembly.? That is likely to cause more wear and tear and more potential damage just from messing with it.? Te whole unit is about 200 lbs and it would not be practical to lift it out for winter storage.? And I don't think there i a need so long as it is not being charged in freezing conditions.? And there is no need to trickle charge these batteries if there is no load on them.?
FYI on the Pearson 10M, make sure the keel is blocked properly.? The aft section is a fiberglass fairing and can be damaged from improper blocking.?
Dan Pfeiffer
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On 2023-10-09 11:24 am, greenpjs04 wrote:
Hi Scott,
Regarding your question 1, there is nothing wrong with storing your batteries in your basement.? However, I do not believe you have to do that.? From what I have read, you are not supposed to CHARGE the batteries in freezing temperatures, but it is OK to STORE them at those temperatures.? Mine have been fine here in northern Ohio.
Note that I am NOT an expert, so those who know better, feel free to correct me.
?
Pat
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From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Scott E Erdman via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2023 11:43 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [electricboats] a couple of questions
?
I'm looking at buying a Pearson 10M that has been fitted with a Thunderstruck 10k and bank of 4 lithium battery packs for 196 AH 48V. All that checks out and fits fine with my needs and wants for the boat. The current owner did the install and it looks good. A couple of questions based on my reading:
?
- The boat will get stored somewhere around Lake Ontario outdoors over the winter. From what I read, it is best to store the batteries somewhere so they don't get subjected to sub zero temps so I plan to just pull them and put them in my basement over the winter. Also it seems it is best to have them somewhere around 80% capacity – i.e. not full charge.
?
- Looking for tips on keeping the batteries safe while sailing – they are installed well under the starboard cockpit seat and rear quarterberth area. I don't plan to sail in extreme weather and the area looked perfectly dry when I checked the boat out in the marina and out for a short sail in very very light breeze. Just wondering what sort of precautions aside from securing them very well people take to make sure the cells are never exposed to water. Basically this is a question asking, assuming it is well installed, are there some upgrades or best practices about insulating the connectors and such that can help further reduce issues that could be encountered – this is the nightmare scenario of a fire starting.
?
Thanks,
Scott
?
?
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Re: a couple of questions
Check with battery manufacturer. I have Winston cells - their spec sheet shows operating down to -45c. Does it get colder than that where you ?winter?
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Re: a couple of questions
Hi Scott, Regarding your question 1, there is nothing wrong with storing your batteries in your basement.? However, I do not believe you have to do that.? From what I have read, you are not supposed to CHARGE the batteries in freezing temperatures, but it is OK to STORE them at those temperatures.? Mine have been fine here in northern Ohio. Note that I am NOT an expert, so those who know better, feel free to correct me. ? Pat ? ?
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From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Scott E Erdman via groups.io Sent: Monday, October 9, 2023 11:43 AM To: [email protected]Subject: [electricboats] a couple of questions ? I’m looking at buying a Pearson 10M that has been fitted with a Thunderstruck 10k and bank of 4 lithium battery packs for 196 AH 48V. All that checks out and fits fine with my needs and wants for the boat. The current owner did the install and it looks good. A couple of questions based on my reading: ? - The boat will get stored somewhere around Lake Ontario outdoors over the winter. From what I read, it is best to store the batteries somewhere so they don’t get subjected to sub zero temps so I plan to just pull them and put them in my basement over the winter. Also it seems it is best to have them somewhere around 80% capacity – i.e. not full charge.
? - Looking for tips on keeping the batteries safe while sailing – they are installed well under the starboard cockpit seat and rear quarterberth area. I don’t plan to sail in extreme weather and the area looked perfectly dry when I checked the boat out in the marina and out for a short sail in very very light breeze. Just wondering what sort of precautions aside from securing them very well people take to make sure the cells are never exposed to water. Basically this is a question asking, assuming it is well installed, are there some upgrades or best practices about insulating the connectors and such that can help further reduce issues that could be encountered – this is the nightmare scenario of a fire starting.
? Thanks, Scott ? ? ?
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Re: a couple of questions
Hi Scott,
I have a Kirby 30 on Lake Ontario (at TSCC) with a Thunderstruck Kit as well and 3 48V/96 Ah Dakota Lithium packs wired in serial, this is my second season with the install.? In prior years I've removed the batteries from the boat for the winter and stored them indoors however at 80 lbs per battery that's a real chore.? I've reached out to Dakota Lithium to see if I could leave them in the boat as long as I disconnected the negative terminals so that they don't cross charge.? I'll let you know what I find out.
Regarding the install, as long as the owner did a good job bracing the batteries down, you should be ok in rough weather.? I built a Starboard tray and cover for mine and have the batteries bolted down where the old fuel tank used to be (under the cockpit).? I've been out in some really bouncy Lake Ontario waves and have never had a problem with the engine or the batteries.
Regards,
Jeff.
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I’m looking at buying a Pearson 10M that has been fitted with a Thunderstruck 10k and bank of 4 lithium battery packs for 196 AH 48V. All that checks out and fits fine with my needs and wants for the boat. The current owner did the install
and it looks good. A couple of questions based on my reading:
?
- The boat will get stored somewhere around Lake Ontario outdoors over the winter. From what I read, it is best to store the batteries somewhere so they don’t get subjected to sub zero
temps so I plan to just pull them and put them in my basement over the winter. Also it seems it is best to have them somewhere around 80% capacity – i.e. not full charge.
?
- Looking for tips on keeping the batteries safe while sailing – they are installed well under the starboard cockpit seat and rear quarterberth area. I don’t plan to sail in extreme
weather and the area looked perfectly dry when I checked the boat out in the marina and out for a short sail in very very light breeze. Just wondering what sort of precautions aside from securing them very well people take to make sure the cells are never
exposed to water. Basically this is a question asking, assuming it is well installed, are there some upgrades or best practices about insulating the connectors and such that can help further reduce issues that could be encountered – this is the nightmare scenario
of a fire starting.
?
Thanks,
Scott
?
?
?
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The expert sources I've encountered say that prismatic battery cases must be constrained and prevented from bulging.? I've divided my pack into 4 boxes of 4 so that I can take the batteries off the boat seasonally.? The boxes are built with stiff sides along the long dimensions of the interconnected batteries.? The boxes are interconnected in series with flexible connectors rather than the copper bars used within the boxes.
My belief is that a prismatic battery with a bulging side is a suspect battery.
[-tv]
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Anybody looking for a San Juan 24 in the Seattle area? Sails good Sails fine No?Motor ?doesn't work But my moorage won’t work out this winter And must get rid of it Open to any offers
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Those are lashing straps, to help keep the cells together when moving a four-cell module.? Without them, just the bus bars hold the cells together, and the two end cells can move a lot relative to the center two cells (when lifting the module).? The straps are on the edge of the cell block where that happens (where the two terminals for connecting to other modules are, as they have no bus bar on them).? Then another (black) strap with just a plastic buckle is run under the bus bars to facilitate lifting the modules by hand.? I'm sure I'll get questions about trusting the terminals to not pull away from the cells when being lifted, but "so far so good".
On bulging, once I ran the pack down 'all the way' intentionally, to be able to observe the motor controller behavior.? I believe that caused once cell to bulge somewhat.? I ended up enlarging one bus bar's holes to allow that connection to remain flat (instead of splaying out the cells towards the bottom).? In hindsight, this situation could have been helped by a BMS.? I basically identified the weakest cell the hard way.? It also has more self discharge now, so I have to work a bit harder at getting the pack full and balanced.
I've built a second pack since then (Gotion 105Ah cells), and use small rubber bumpers between the cells.? One reason is to better accommodate bulging, the other is because I learned that the blue plastic covers live metal (the alumunim case is at the same potential as one of the terminals).? If that blue plastic were to have its insulative properties compromised, I'd be looking at a catastrophic fault for at least one cell.
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