Re: Outboard Sizing Help Needed
Does your current bow trolling motor mount on deck? Maybe you could do something similar for a second motor at the rear. Or maybe you could find or fashion a kicker bracket to mount on the sloped aft area. It only has to handle 20 or 30lbs of motor and 100lbs of thrust.
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Bob, I was rewatching your video assembling your 48 volt pack on your boat and had a question regarding the 12 volt cell grouping. I see blue stripes on one end of each 4 cell group. Are those in place to reduce swelling and is swelling something I need to be concerned with?
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I see similar price at BatteryFinds:
$65/cell but that includes shipping.? Good energy density at 170Wh/kg.
But it look like those cells are coming from China at BatteryFinds.? So likely more than one month shipping time.
If your Georgia company has them in stock and shipping isn't too bad, that probably makes more sense.
I personally haven't ordered from BatteryFinds yet, but I've heard good things about them.
Maybe browse through BatteryFinds' USA stock to see if you can beat the Georgia company price-wise (including shipping)?
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I was looking around and found EVE LF105 3.2 LifePO4 fo $60 per cell, 16 cells for $960. This is a company in Georgia USA. Good price? What are you all currently using??
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Re: Outboard Sizing Help Needed
I was just watching some YouTube vidieos on this. I fly R/C giant scale and 2 meter pattern planes so I’m familiar with the APC props and have a few different pitches in 10 and 13 inch.?
looking at the rear of my boat I don’t have much space on iether side of the main motor. As you can see the rear slopes upward at approximately 30° on both the left and right side of the transom. Those sections sound hollow to me and I do not think the main transom board is underneath of that fiberglass so that leaves me with a very narrow area to mount anything. That narrows my selection of motors significantly.?
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Re: Advice for electric conversion
I converted my 25HP Tohatsu outboard to electric just over 20 years ago. Since, I have been running with an original Briggs and Stratton Etek motor. The mount is fairly simple with a thin quarter or three eights inch thick aluminum plate on which is mounted 3 thick aluminum uprights maybe 2inch high each and on top of that a half inch aluminum plate that the motor is mounted to. ?The motor direct drives the spline shaft and there are no additional bearings. Initially I cast my own spline to 7 eighths inch diam. Shaft couplers by casting the spline part with JB weld…those would last 2 or 3 months before shredding… Later I learned that outboard driveshafts typically have identical splines on top and bottom.? And so, for 35 dollars I picked up a used lower unit spline bevel gear, then bringing that and a 7 eights diameter shaft coupler to a machinist I had the machinist grind down the gear to 7 eighths inch diam at one end, then inserted and epoxied the result into the 7 eights diam. Coupler.? Result has been solid for nearly 20 years and cost just 100 dollars total including the machining.? I was looking at at least 500 dollars to get a spline coupler machined, so this was a bargain. ? See pics at ? Myles ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Randy Cain
Sent: Saturday, October 7, 2023 6:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Advice for electric conversion ? This is the approach that I'm taking. I have dual ME-1616 motors and dual 120S saildrives. I plan on using 0.5in aluminum plate, reusing the existing spline welded to a new jackshaft that sits on bearings in an oil bath.
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Re: Outboard Sizing Help Needed
One thing you should know is trolling motors are designed, not for primary propulsion, but to control the boat at slow speeds.?
Their props are pitched for slower speeds and more torque, not higher speeds you might be able to achieve with the same motor.
The stock props that come from the motor manufacturer are usually low pitch, like 3 - 4".
You might consider changing the prop on your existing electric motor to gain additional speed.
Identifying which pitch/diameter of prop you would use depends on how much power you are consuming now when your motor is at wide open throttle. You would need an in-line or clamp on amp meter to take these measurements.
Specific motors have an upper limit to how many amps they are designed for.? That specification should be in the motor's documentation.? The gap between your current power consumption and the rating of the motor will give you how much power you have to play with trying new props.
I use model airplane props to "dial in" the pitch/diameter choice, paying close attention to how they affect speed and power consumption.
You may need to make minor modifications to the prop hubs or use nylon spacers to get them to fit on your motor's prop spindle and match your shear pin.
Don't expect miracles with this approach.? You might gain a 0.5 mph increase in speed, or, perhaps some additional efficiency because the model airplane props are thinner and slice through the water with less resistance.
Physics is a tough taskmaster.? There is an exponential relationship between additional speed and power consumption.
With my 26 foot, 4000 pound cruiser, I can go 2.5 miles per hour on 400 watts, 3 miles per hour on 700 watts and 4 miles per hour on 1200 watts (zero wind, no current, no chop)? I literally have to triple my power consumption for that extra 1.5 mph.? 6 mph is possible, (My hull speed is 6.4 mph) but would consume over 3kw.
Your mileage/speed/power consumption will vary depending on your boat hull design and water/wind/current conditions.
I vote for using your existing motor, adjusting your props to use all its power, and be happy with 3.5 mph and invest in better batteries.? New LiFePO ones are an interesting option if you can get the right charge controller for them and keep them reasonably dry.
Ken Cooke Solar Six
If you
On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 12:17?PM Kelly R. < kelly@...> wrote: My max range requirement would be 10 miles total one way in a rescue situation and that range would be more than enough for the electric lakes.? The speed is not a big concern, reliability and range is the driving factor so if that 6MPH number is pushing me over a line I would be happy with 4 or 5 MPH, I just want to know I can get home. I can always fish along the way ;).?
The golden EZ-x10 is about $3500 with no additional controllers needed.
The Navy 6 would be $3500 plus an additional $350 for the basic controller.?
Option 2:
Stick with 36 volts and put the money into batteries. I already have the 36-volt trolling motor up front with autopilot for steering and when needed I could add a second 36-volt motor to the rear. Would a second motor on the rear of the boat work? This gives me even more redundancy.??
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Re: Outboard Sizing Help Needed
My max range requirement would be 10 miles total one way in a rescue situation and that range would be more than enough for the electric lakes.? The speed is not a big concern, reliability and range is the driving factor so if that 6MPH number is pushing me over a line I would be happy with 4 or 5 MPH, I just want to know I can get home. I can always fish along the way ;).?
The golden EZ-x10 is about $3500 with no additional controllers needed.
The Navy 6 would be $3500 plus an additional $350 for the basic controller.?
Option 2:
Stick with 36 volts and put the money into batteries. I already have the 36-volt trolling motor up front with autopilot for steering and when needed I could add a second 36-volt motor to the rear. Would a second motor on the rear of the boat work? This gives me even more redundancy.??
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Re: Advice for electric conversion
This is the approach that I'm taking. I have dual ME-1616 motors and dual 120S saildrives. I plan on using 0.5in aluminum plate, reusing the existing spline welded to a new jackshaft that sits on bearings in an oil bath.
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Re: Outboard Sizing Help Needed
My friend has a Torqueedo on his Macgregor 25 and it does well. It might do 10 miles at mid throttle.
I have an epropulsion spirit Evo on a small pontoon boat on a lake in Canada. It’s great . We do the leisurely evening ‘wine tour’ of the lake at lower speeds. ?Its probably 3 miles and we return with 95% battery. If needed, we can push along at a good clip - maybe 5 mph?
I have the basically the same motor on my 15’ Pocketship which I just launched last week, so I don’t have good numbers on it, but I probably went a mile and hardly used any battery. This one has regen, but you’d have to go over 5 knots to get much output.?
Yes they are expensive, but they are trouble free, and have good thrust.? -Steve
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On Oct 6, 2023, at 11:51 PM, Phil Boyer via groups.io <philaboyer@...> wrote:
? I have used a Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 for the last 6 years. I have it pushing an 18' home built catamaran with solar panals on a canopy. I find the Torqeedo is very efficient for a cruising speed of 5 knots. I also have an Elco 20 hp motor and it works well but does not have the same efficiency for cruising.
Phil Boyer
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Re: Outboard Sizing Help Needed
I have used a Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 for the last 6 years. I have it pushing an 18' home built catamaran with solar panals on a canopy. I find the Torqeedo is very efficient for a cruising speed of 5 knots. I also have an Elco 20 hp motor and it works well but does not have the same efficiency for cruising.
Phil Boyer
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Re: Outboard Sizing Help Needed
I've played with electric outboards a little bit.
One experiment was using a 48V Torqeedo on a Catalina 22 (compared to your boat, a little longer, maybe about the same weight?).? ? From my notes, I was able to do about 6.3mph at 3300 watts (wide open throttle), with 4 AGM 12V batteries.? ?For 3300 watts, to go 20 miles (round trip of your rounded up 10 miles), you should plan for at least 200Ah of battery.? If you don't use lithium, you will need to plan twice as much for lead's 50% depth of discharge.
The 24V Torqeedo did a fine job of pushing the Catalina 22, but max speed was only about 4.5mph - and that was at close to 2000W.
I agree with the comment that the Torqeedo's seem very high priced.? I'm also reluctant to leave such an expensive motor in salt water!
For my 10' West Marine RIB dinghy, I did an experiment with a 48V Hangkai against a 24V (not 48V) Torqeedo. Note that a 10' RIB dinghy is not as svelt as a sailboat!!! The 24V Torqeedo could only push the dinghy to 4.3 knots at 1200W (47.5A, 24.8V). The 48V Hangkai pushed the dinghy to a very modest 3.4 knots at 1000W (17.6A, 56.6V)
My experience so far has been that the Torqeedo is a MUCH more robust outboard, and seems to put out a lot more thrust - largely due to the much larger prop.
The 48V 1000W Hangkai is a "cute little motor" for puttering around in the dinghy.? You won't go anywhere fast!? ?But it will easily run 2 hours on a 60AH 48V ebike battery, and at $350 - it's cheaper than the ebike battery!? ?Motors will die, especially in the salt environment I'm in.? ?I'll be feel a LOT better about replacing a $350 Hangkai than a $4000 Torqeedo.? ?But it won't push you to 6mph.
Good luck! John
On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 08:30:27 PM CDT, Kelly R. <kelly@...> wrote:
I am back with more questions for the group. As you may recall I did this build,? /g/electricboats/message/31909?with your help and wanted to let you know that this system is still working great.? Now for the electric outboard idea/question. The boat is used for fishing on the Potomac River utilizing the 1997 150 HP 2 stroke (that left me stranded the other day for the first time) and it is also used in some electric-only lakes utilizing the 36-volt trolling motor (thread above). Being stranded the other day was not a great feeling and I was too far away from the marina to get home with the trolling motor and battery setup I have. This got me thinking... an electric outboard could serve as an emergency kicker motor and allow me to venture further into the electric-only lakes.? Distance: on Google Maps I plotted out a distance from my furthest fishing point back to the marina I frequent. I ended up with approx 8 miles, let's round that up to 10 miles.? Speed: my 36-volt trolling motor pulls me along at an average speed of 3.5 MPH according to my GPS...? If I could get 6 MPH that would be great but distance is more important than speed for a self-rescue.? Boat specs: Hull Material: Fiberglass, Beam: 7'7", Length: 20', Net Weight: 2250 lbs. I think a 48-volt setup would be better than 36 volt but I am open to all suggestions. If I go 48 volts then eventually I could replace my trolling motor with a 48-volt setup and have maybe 30 or 40 extra Ah of capacity in an emergency.?
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Re: Outboard Sizing Help Needed
I think the motor I have would meet those requirements well.? ePropulsion Navy 6.0 Evo.? With the low-pitch prop, 6mph should be achievable on your boat.
They make a smaller version (3.0), but I think it would be close on hitting 6mph.? Given that they are close in price and weight (closer than the 2x power difference), going for the higher-powered model is easy to justify.
Other than a Hangkai electric outboard motor (2.2kW), that's the only model I have direct experience with.? But I do look over Golden Motor's offerings from time to time.? Their EZ-X05 motor might be a better fit for your needs (and more cost effective):
And of course there's Torqeedo, but I feel that they are overpriced for what they deliver.
One good resource for this type of question is??... they also have an 'under 5kW' guide ... your requirements seem to put you right on that line.? But I could be off on that estimation as I have a semi-displacement hull and yours is a planing hull.
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Outboard Sizing Help Needed
I am back with more questions for the group. As you may recall I did this build,? /g/electricboats/message/31909?with your help and wanted to let you know that this system is still working great.? Now for the electric outboard idea/question. The boat is used for fishing on the Potomac River utilizing the 1997 150 HP 2 stroke (that left me stranded the other day for the first time) and it is also used in some electric-only lakes utilizing the 36-volt trolling motor (thread above). Being stranded the other day was not a great feeling and I was too far away from the marina to get home with the trolling motor and battery setup I have. This got me thinking... an electric outboard could serve as an emergency kicker motor and allow me to venture further into the electric-only lakes.? Distance: on Google Maps I plotted out a distance from my furthest fishing point back to the marina I frequent. I ended up with approx 8 miles, let's round that up to 10 miles.? Speed: my 36-volt trolling motor pulls me along at an average speed of 3.5 MPH according to my GPS...? If I could get 6 MPH that would be great but distance is more important than speed for a self-rescue.? Boat specs: Hull Material: Fiberglass, Beam: 7'7", Length: 20', Net Weight: 2250 lbs. I think a 48-volt setup would be better than 36 volt but I am open to all suggestions. If I go 48 volts then eventually I could replace my trolling motor with a 48-volt setup and have maybe 30 or 40 extra Ah of capacity in an emergency.?
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Re: Advice for electric conversion
?
Ric,
Can you tell me about the process of mating the motor and saildrive in your current setup? Did you use all off the shelf adaptors?
I have a 120S I would like to add an electric motor to. I can see that I had not through the shifting issue, but first I Would like to know how you made that horizontal shat connection.
Thanks
Marcel
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Re: Advice for electric conversion
When I yanked my diesels out of my cat, I was planning on belting the electric motor to the shaft of the sail drive gearbox. After some thought, I pulled out the sail drives, glassed over the holes and installed straight shafts. But I also considered doing exactly what you’re thinking of - mounting the motors vertically and married to the shaft of the sail drives.?
you may wish to consider using pulleys and a belt to the vertical shaft? That way you can deal with whatever reduction ratio you need and make your life a lot simpler.?
my guess is you can pull the gear box off the sail drive. You’ll need to fabricate a plate with the shaft poking out over the top to contain oil. The motor can then be mounted forward of the drive, either inverted (preferable for access to the belt) or vertical.?
the shop manual for the drive should give you enough info to do the job?
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Re: Advice for electric conversion
That is correct Reuben. The Starboard side has a new Beta 38 with a new sail drive which is working out very well. When I converted the old port VP sail drive I had not known the input had to be turned in only one direction due to the clutch setup. I think I could gain some efficiency in eliminating the clutches and being able to use the motor controller for forward and reverse. The system is currently working but eliminating the VP clutches might be a longer term advantage. I’m sorta kind looking for a junked VP sail drive to tear apart for experimenting.
cheers
Ric
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Re: Advice for electric conversion
It seems you want to mount the motor vertically with a connection to the vertical shaft of the stern drive, eliminating the gear box? This makes a lot of sense.?
I assume you still have a diesel in the other hull? If so, why not consider adding a 48vdc alternator to this motor?
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Re: Power in and out of battery bank
Matt -
Could you expand this a bit please? I think I understand your reply but there were a couple other questions posed such as whether the situation of simultaneous charging/discharging is more damaging. Depending on the context I expect it could be - here
is my thinking and feel free to correct as I don’t have a ton of experience with this other than owning an electric/hybrid car.?
I think you could have two or three contexts, in theory, to using solar power. First, it’s perfect to top up your house batteries so long as you’re not running an air fryer on the boat daily. That said, when you are low on stored power and looking for
what you could get from solar or a gas generator to try to run the engine, solar and a generator will likely help, a bigger bank will also help to delay that scenario but unless you can charge from a slip, it will likely be hard to keep up with demand from
what I’ve read. If your bank is seriously depleted and you keep going the power from a solar panel or generator or both will be flowing into a nearly completely depleted battery and if pulled off right away the battery will stay depleted- having power flow
in and out at this low state might be damaging (? not a statement of fact). If this is the case is it better to charge an external battery and continuously deplete it or allow it to charge something and then discharge it?
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On Sep 27, 2023, at 5:17 PM, Matt Foley <matt@...> wrote:
? They are correct you can’t! Not because it will damage the battery, it’s just physically not possible. Energy is either flowing in or out.?
If the load is greater than the charging source, it will pull from the source(s) simultaneously. If the load is less than the charging source, it will power the load and charge the battery.?
You are fine. Happy motoring.?
Matt Foley
Sunlight Conversions?
1-201-914-0466
ABYC Certified Marine?
Electrical Technician
On Sep 27, 2023, at 4:50 PM, rholden@... wrote:
?Hi All
Very fundamental beginner's question here.
I currently have a 160amp hour 48-volt closed cell battery bank running a thunderstruck 10KW motor and all works well. ( Looking forward to lithium in the future).
QUESTION: If I am charging the battery using solar panels - or in some cases a generator - can I run the motor at the same time?
There a several claims on Google search that you cannot charge and discharge a battery bank at the same time.?
If you are running solar panels ( which I am about to install) - I can't imagine that you switch them off each time you want to run the motor.
Can someone please clarify if I can charge and discharge simultaneously, or will this damage the batteries or create other issues?
The expert help from this group is very much appreciated.
Richard
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Re: Power in and out of battery bank
Mat is correct but… ?there is no need to shut anything off. What happens is if you need a lot of power for the motor both the solar panels and the batteries will try to provide it. If the motor is in a very low power setting (idle) the the solar might be putting out enough power for the motor and some for the batteries.? Cheers, Ric
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cpcanoesailor
Kelly Regan
bobkart
Randy Cain
Reuben Trane
Ric Sanders