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Re: feasible regen
Todd,
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A faster boat would be great, but if we're talking about 28'-32' displacement sailboats, breaking 6 knots gets more difficult with 1/4 ton of batteries on board. For bigger boats, that speed threshold is easier to hit, but bigger boats take bigger drives, and so on... The best success stories that I have heard about regen is in the 40'+ catamarans that can cruise at 7 or 8kts even with the extra weight related to the electric system(s). So how fast do you regularly sail in your boat today? I know that my 30' ketch has only touched 6kts a couple of times in over 10 years. 5kts takes a solid breeze for my old boat. So I don't expect much from regen from my electric drive, even when headed offshore to our local islands. Alternatively, my 27' trimaran has hit 6kts boat speed in only 5kts true wind. If I converted that boat to electric, that kind of performance would no longer be possible. I'm not willing to sacrifice my good runs at 15kts+ boat speed to go electric. The 9.8hp outboard is auxilliary power that works for me. We've got a lot of options and we each get to figure out what will work best for the way that we actually use our boats. Electric is a good answer for some use cases and horrible for some other use cases. Learning the difference before the considerable investment of time and money is why I'm a member of this group. Fair winds, Eric Marina del Rey, CA --- In electricboats@..., "Todd" <toddbates99@...> wrote:
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: converting a 42 foot sloop to electric propulsion
hob tonn
G'day Todd,
I have two Aquair units both are mounted tho I only use one at a time, but I can toss both props into the water if I have strong enough wind to benifit the drag. The only problems I have seen with others who have used them are they forget about them and will somehow get them fowled up in the props.
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Cheers
Robbie
S/V Qwave
Von: Todd An: electricboats@... Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 25. November 2010, 4:15:36 Uhr Betreff: [Electric Boats] Re: converting a 42 foot sloop to electric propulsion ? Regen for short trips is probably not viable. That said it might be nice for longer trips. Or perhaps with larger faster boats it might be more viable. This article gives a nice synopsis "". I think regen may be like water makers, you have to be going for longer trips to make sense. I like Capt. Mikes idea of mutual backups. Maybe solar, regen, and generator with a faster boat. |
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Re: converting a 42 foot sloop to electric propulsion
Regen for short trips is probably not viable. That said it might be nice for longer trips. Or perhaps with larger faster boats it might be more viable. This article gives a nice synopsis ". I think regen may be like water makers, you have to be going for longer trips to make sense. I like Capt. Mikes idea of mutual backups. Maybe solar, regen, and generator with a faster boat.
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: New guy Questions
Aaron Williams
Robbie
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What are you using for an electric motor system? any details boat displacement, battery size, motor size?
Aaron
From: hob tonn To: electricboats@... Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 7:26:10 AM Subject: AW: [Electric Boats] Re: New guy Questions ?
G'day People.
I hope that this will not turn up in everyones spam box.
I believe that if people wish to change to electric power then they should do just that, without
people trying to talk them out of it or showing the negative side of things.
I have found in the past that what didnt work for other worked perfect for me and visa versa.
Some speak of regen, yes If your a weekend sailor and only go out for two hours a day or thats the max
distance that you sail, yes Regen is out. But if you just motor out of a slip you can leave and not use 2% of your? battery bank aswell , depending on how big your marina is.
?
I have electric on my 42' ketch, I wouldnt trade it for a zillion desiel or gas engines. Im not a weekend sailor.
I will cross again the pacific in the boat. As we all should remember sail boats have no engines. Only a secondary being said that the Wind and Sails are your Primary. Are we sailboats or are we power boats?
?
Do we wish to sail or do we wish to run the engine at 5knts? and play the part. I kno in case of emergencies
engines are a delight. But what did people do 55 years ago? Not even a VHF to cry into or a SSB.? And
Cell Phones were only a reality in a Dick Tracy Show.
?
People if you wish to have electric get electric. What didnt work for me doesnt mean it will not work for you.
Maybe you will be the one who revolutionizes batteries or a new style of electric motor. I love my electric boat.
And when people are in the doldrums? afraid to run thier desiel or gas engines due to the fact they wish to save the petro to motor in to the islands. I can move along at a few knts per hour with no wind all day long. even if its 1 knot per hour under power and direction, thats 24 knots further than most will be and some times even more depending on what direction they are drifting. Also moving at 1knot per hour a person could run many hours befor even using up 50% of a 48vt bank.
?
So all the Killjoy's out there, Let the people be who they are and maybe one of them will invent something that you will purchase in a few years for your boating fun.
?
Cheers
Robbie
S/V Qwave
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: High end electric/diesel yacht
David Goldsmith
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Steve Dolan <sdolan@...> wrote:
Ideological issues aside, nuclear is an excellent option these days for power generation. I don't know about your local plant which is without a doubt not the latest and greatest but still, if you're charging from that source you can be pretty sure there aren't any particulate or carbon equivalent emission problems. ?
Steve, I think I speak for the whole group when I say we're happy to have you here and you may very well be the most knowledge person available anywhere on these systems (probably more so than the engineers since they haven't had the same field experience), that 410 is certainly a very big boat and an electric drive is an ambitious undertaking. ?
The manual trans is a good analogy, and it always seemed to me that the choice of charter service was a bold move, I mean, they must have know how those systems were going to be beat to hell! They probably got more use in a season than they would have in ten years in private hands. Still, I reiterate my concern from before, that kind of exposure and that kind of testing was bound to turn people off of these systems, maybe enthusiastic private owners would have been a better option for the long-term sales of these systems. That's all speculation of course, they may have tried private owners who wouldn't bite, they may have made a deal of some sort with the charter companies. ?
I just love the Lagoon cats, the French charter type cats are given a hard time by the speed freaks, but that's not my MO so I think they're great. My question though is that mainsail, its way up there! Have you found any trouble setting, dousing, sheeting, or generally getting way up on the cabin to mess with the boom or sail? The other question I see raised a lot is the helm placement, any trouble with visibility? ?
That's interesting. Nigel Calder's books are invaluable for any boat owner. His latest projects I've read about have been real space-ship type electric systems for the entire boat, they seem a little over the top to me, but I'm glad someone is into this stuff in boats, I bet the results when they're all done are going to be amazing. ?
Agreed, the retrofit systems most of us are installing are adequate for the sorts of 25-35 foot boats they're going into but once you get much larger the batteries just get out of hand and the availability of motors, controllers, gear boxes, and the like all become more difficult. Something as large as those big cats really do need a complicated system if electricity is involved and pretty much require a gen-set. I can't help but thinking the problem is expectations, with an electric set up the user knows there will be compromises with speed and range, so he accepts them. If one were willing to make the very same compromises and install a pair of diesels of more like 20hp than the 50hp that is the usual and accept the very same compromise I wonder if they could get away with a much simpler system and better fuel economy if it was used in the same way as an electric would have been. Given your experience, could you describe your electric system, hybrid or otherwise for a cat like your 410 or something similar? I know a few decades ago there was a lot of talk about hydraulic drive for cats, using a single engine to drive a pair of hydraulic motors to move the boat would, the efficiencies of hydraulics are pretty good these days, comparable to a hybrid electric system? I know hydraulics are pretty 'industrial' and I'm sure that's a turn off for a lot of people. The only think I'd like less than a diesel spill in the boat is hydraulic fluid. David ?
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: High end electric/diesel yacht
I'm not knowledgeable on the "up stream" power costs but I haven't heard anything about Nuclear Power production and its efficiency so since I have one just up the street in Calvert County Maryland I may have to run by (I always wanted to visit it anyway) and see if they have any numbers.
The electric power from my local utility is confirmed to be more than 20% supplied by renewable sources. The largest coal powered plant within 300 miles was decommisioned in 2005. The bulk of our local power generation is from natural gas, so I would say that the electricity in my area is considerably cleaner than power from IC engines. In our area, electricity is not used much for heating anything, water, cooking and area heating is usually natural gas because it is more efficient (cheaper) overall, it just happens to be cleaner too. Moving on to the trickle down process, I would use the Solomon/Lagoon joint venture as an example. The handful of charter catamarans that were put into service provided enough feedback from regular users, that Solomon re-engineered the systems that they sell to people like you or me. Those charter cats were pulled from service and "new and improved" versions were released later. (I believe that one of the early Lagoons is owned by someone in this group). The real world experience gained from less than a dozen of these large boats has influenced many later ventures, I would bet that the Hunter engineers are very aware of what worked there and what didn't. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yup it's me, the Lagoon 410 owner. The last one of 3 built as a test bed for the later 420's that SOME were placed into charter .The first 410 was also placed into charter for about 5 years buy the original owner. Let's say you own a 5 speed manual car and you give it to a friend for the day that has never driven a 5 speed. What are the chances that the trans is going to feel some pain over that time? Most know how much monitoring has to go on with an Electric Boat to maintain the system in peak performance and longevity of the Batteries. In its infancy the systems were not meant for that kind of abuse and they were abused. I don't care how much you think you know, its taken me about a year now to feel comfortable with the system and know what's going on. Nether Lagoon or Solomons provided wiring diagrams and I just don't have a warm fuzzy feeling unless I have a set. The boats were pulled from "service" for several reasons. In the charter business down there the majority of renters were not sailing but powering from island to island. They run A/C 24/7 and everything else they could. As with any boat system this complicated they had glitches, mostly at first with the software for the genset/ charging routines I believe. Battery life was shortened do to abuse which then creates more problems with the charging system trying to keep up. IMO this type of system should never have been put into charter to start with. There are a few major differences between the 410 and 420 systems. 1. The Solomons system wasn't used in the 420's! 2. The Solomons system was pretty much a non computer system. The genset was manually started and shut down on the original system. One original 410 has a new genset with the Auto run and it seems to be working now (a cooling issue corrected). You monitor the state of charge and go from there on the 410. 3. The Solomons system is based on 144V system where the 420 was a 72V system. 4. Though I've never physically seen the 420 system I'm pretty sure the hardware is different. Different controllers and motors. Something a lot of people don't know is the Solomons motors are actually 2 motors connected together with 2 controllers per side. In my case I have 4 motors and 4 controllers. If I loose one of the "halves" or one controller I can still run on the other 1/2 at 50% output and throttle back to 25% on the other side. Ok the reason why most don't run on this particular system is the cost. I bought my boat at about the cost of a standard ICE boat. I putter around the Chesapeake Bay at this time and have no more grand plans than the East Coast and hopefully the Caribbean in a few years. 410E #1 is heading for South America in a few months. 410E #2 completed a trip up the East Coast with a new owner this summer mostly in the ICW on a genset (power) do to inexperience with the sailing part of the boat and all the new systems and is planning to head to the Caribbean next Spring. I'm planning the Delmarva Peninsula next year then up to Boston and down to Myrtle Beach the following year. From there who knows. As for my costs for fuel I filled the tanks with 40g at the start of the second year but don't know the mileage and used the boat about 60 days on the water or how "full" the tanks were. Considering the enjoyment I am quite pleased with this cost. Maintenance has been much simpler than my dock mates with ICE systems. Additional costs have been under $3k but that includes system upgrades such as the PakTrakr and a controller that was bad which now gives me a rebuilt spare. I'm budgeting around $5k a year for batteries down the road. This is a big boat and a big system. In most cases the majority of the Electric boats on this site are much smaller and most aren't planning for trips over a few weeks of traveling in blue water. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- About the Hunter 27e, I think that the Hunter 27 is a reasonable modern production boat, though not my cup of tea. Using Elco's "drop-in" diesel replacement should be pretty straightforward. I give Hunter a big thumbs up for putting the option out there, even if they haven't built one yet (does anybody know?). I've heard that Catalina out here on the west coast is discussing electric options too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe that Beneteau is also testing an Electric system built by Dave Tether, the original owner of Solomons and now working with Nigel Calder. There are several very large cats with Electric Drive Systems (Hybrid) that are on the water at this time. Just a point on Hybrid systems. Once you get to a certain size boat and plan on a long distance or extended cruise you have to have a hybrid system. I realize most here are not interested in gensets and the like but if you're planning on any long distance sailing you got to have a backup to the batteries. I also believe most understand this and realize pure electric isn't smart under those conditions at this time. Steve in Solomons MD |
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: New guy Questions
hob tonn
G'day People.
I hope that this will not turn up in everyones spam box.
I believe that if people wish to change to electric power then they should do just that, without
people trying to talk them out of it or showing the negative side of things.
I have found in the past that what didnt work for other worked perfect for me and visa versa.
Some speak of regen, yes If your a weekend sailor and only go out for two hours a day or thats the max
distance that you sail, yes Regen is out. But if you just motor out of a slip you can leave and not use 2% of your? battery bank aswell , depending on how big your marina is.
?
I have electric on my 42' ketch, I wouldnt trade it for a zillion desiel or gas engines. Im not a weekend sailor.
I will cross again the pacific in the boat. As we all should remember sail boats have no engines. Only a secondary being said that the Wind and Sails are your Primary. Are we sailboats or are we power boats?
?
Do we wish to sail or do we wish to run the engine at 5knts? and play the part. I kno in case of emergencies
engines are a delight. But what did people do 55 years ago? Not even a VHF to cry into or a SSB.? And
Cell Phones were only a reality in a Dick Tracy Show.
?
People if you wish to have electric get electric. What didnt work for me doesnt mean it will not work for you.
Maybe you will be the one who revolutionizes batteries or a new style of electric motor. I love my electric boat.
And when people are in the doldrums? afraid to run thier desiel or gas engines due to the fact they wish to save the petro to motor in to the islands. I can move along at a few knts per hour with no wind all day long. even if its 1 knot per hour under power and direction, thats 24 knots further than most will be and some times even more depending on what direction they are drifting. Also moving at 1knot per hour a person could run many hours befor even using up 50% of a 48vt bank.
?
So all the Killjoy's out there, Let the people be who they are and maybe one of them will invent something that you will purchase in a few years for your boating fun.
?
Cheers
Robbie
S/V Qwave
Von: Eric An: electricboats@... Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 24. November 2010, 17:38:07 Uhr Betreff: [Electric Boats] Re: New guy Questions ? Glenn, --- In electricboats@..., "vega1184" wrote: > > I need to repower my 27' sailboat was looking at a diesel but electric has interested me. I have a strong mechanical background and some electrical experience mostly automotive and a little residential, that being said I can safety repair most anything; it's designing where I may need some help. I have a very healthy respect for electricity and always ensure cables are properly terminated, sealed and secured, all grounds are in place and all batteries secured. > First off budget is an issue I don't want to go over $4K, from prop to batteries, is this possible? Rough guess shaft, prop, bearings, etc $1K. Kit something like Thunderstruck, Sevcon Brushless Sailboat Kit - 8.5KW () $1.5K. Wiring, motor mount, belt drive reduction, misc bits $0.5K. That leaves $1K for batteries and chargers, not much I know, but I could add more later. I would thinks 48 volt would be better (at least safer), but amps are starting to get high. Batteries, I guess I would have to go with AGM, have some space, would love LiFePO4 but out of my buget right now. Any one have any suggestions? > > Boat Specs > 1971 Albin Vega > LOA 27' > LWL 23' > Beam 8' at WL 7' > Displ average 6500 Lbs > > Glenn > |
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: converting a 42 foot sloop to electric propulsion
--- On Wed, 11/24/10, vega1184 wrote:
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Re: [Electric Boats] High end electric/diesel yacht
Carel Ruysink
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Re: New guy Questions
Glenn,
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I'm interested in your budget. How much would a diesel re-power cost for your boat? Are you considering electric primarily because you think that it is a cheaper alternative to ICE? You should seriously think about the compromises that you're signing up for. A 500 lb flooded or AGM battery bank will drive your boat about as far as 0.75 gallons of diesel. The Vega is a small boat, do you have room for eight 6V golf cart batteries or four 4D batteries? A new Beta twin diesel weighs about 200 pounds. A decent sized electric drive will weigh 200+ lbs more than a diesel system, including a full 8 gallon fuel tank, that is sized for your boat. How long have you been sailing your boat? How much fuel do you usually burn over the course of your regular trip? When I realized that I rarely burned one whole gallon per trip in my boat, electric drive became more feasible. I'll spend at least 80% of what I would have spent for a diesel re-power that I did myself, so I'm not doing it to save money. As long as you approach this project with your eyes open to what it really means, then you shouldn't be disappointed. i've seen a number of newly converted boats that obviously did not meet their owner's expectations. Fair winds, Eric Marina del Rey, CA --- In electricboats@..., "vega1184" <vega1184@...> wrote:
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Re: converting an Albin Vega 27 to electric propulsion
Yep, regen rarely lives up to its promise. I'll say this again, I have not heard of any verifiable claim of generating more than 100W at 5kts boat speed or less. That's less than 2A at charging voltages for a 48V system.
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Depending on where you live and boat, wind also has a difficult time living up to expectations. The typical wind generators create no power under 7 or 8kts wind speed and take about 15kts before they generate any significant power. So anytime your apparent wind drops to about 10kts you're not going to be putting much into your batteries. I've known a few people that have gotten complaints in regular marinas about the noise made by their generators. That said, wind generators can be an effective way to keep a battery system topped up and in some areas can do a decent job charging. Of the onboard, renewable choices, solar seems to be the most consistant method. Properly sized and placed, a solar array can provide significant power while sailing and may recover a depleted battery bank in a few days of full sun. Solar panels are truly silent and add very little drag, unlike wind or water power alternatives. Some small boats may have a difficult time finding enough room for than 100W of PV panels, other boats have room for much more capability. Fair winds, Eric Marina del Rey, CA --- In electricboats@..., "vega1184" <vega1184@...> wrote:
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Re: converting a 42 foot sloop to electric propulsion
vega1184
Is regen that bad, I have similar plan (see other post) but will have limited batteries and wanted to recharge by regen. Would wind gen be better than regen.
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--- In electricboats@..., "Mark n Angela" <mstafford@...> wrote:
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New guy Questions
vega1184
I need to repower my 27' sailboat was looking at a diesel but electric has interested me. I have a strong mechanical background and some electrical experience mostly automotive and a little residential, that being said I can safety repair most anything; it's designing where I may need some help. I have a very healthy respect for electricity and always ensure cables are properly terminated, sealed and secured, all grounds are in place and all batteries secured.
First off budget is an issue I don't want to go over $4K, from prop to batteries, is this possible? Rough guess shaft, prop, bearings, etc $1K. Kit something like Thunderstruck, Sevcon Brushless Sailboat Kit - 8.5KW () $1.5K. Wiring, motor mount, belt drive reduction, misc bits $0.5K. That leaves $1K for batteries and chargers, not much I know, but I could add more later. I would thinks 48 volt would be better (at least safer), but amps are starting to get high. Batteries, I guess I would have to go with AGM, have some space, would love LiFePO4 but out of my buget right now. Any one have any suggestions? Boat Specs 1971 Albin Vega LOA 27' LWL 23' Beam 8' at WL 7' Displ average 6500 Lbs Glenn |
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Re: [Electric Boats] Hunter 27 has electric option
David Hughes
Elco is located here on the east coast, NY I think, and is one of the oldest companies dedicated to electric boating. However, they have gone through many ownership changes and challenges with one very recently. I tried contacting them this past year for my project and after several phone calls and the total lack of information, I gave up. I do hope they have figured it out and got beyond their troubles.
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--- In electricboats@..., David Goldsmith <suntreader@...> wrote:
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: High end electric/diesel yacht
David Goldsmith
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Eric <ewdysar@...> wrote:
Electricity in California is some of the cleanest in the country, so you guys are probably in good shape for electric vehicles from an emissions per person mile stand point. Unfortunately, the rest of us are still running on coal with some natural gas in there and I know of several biomass plants in the works down here, so that's good news. Its still a stretch to assume that emissions are lower via central generation rather than point of use, there are just too many other factors that can shift the equation either way; you've got a much better chance than I do, but for instance California does not have the most modern power grid around and distribution losses can be very very high. I'm not asserting one is better than the other in every case; again, its very complicated, just that even given a very efficient point of use or a very efficient central generation set-up, the question still has too many factors to be able to use one bit of information to answer the question. This isn't a failing for any of us, its just the nature of the beast to have so much uncertainty in it. The most concrete answer would be a moderate solar array on the stern rail to charge up the battery bank. Then you know exactly where the energy is coming from and you know there aren't any emissions related to the daily use of the system. The other point to be made about claims of renewable power purchases is that sort of accounting and accrediting is very suspect at this stage. There are many cases of those claims being the result of accounting tricks, buying carbon off-set credits of questionable validity, buying shares in funds to build future renewable energy stations, or otherwise making the claim without any relation to the actual energy being generated and used. If you were so inclined, and I'm certainly not, you'd have a lot of work cut out for you to trace the volts at your outlet back to their generation source. I don't have a better answer for you about figuring what type of energy each of us gets but its never as simply as we'd like. ?
I haven't been privy to Lagoon's R&D program so I can't speak to how much feedback they've had or how that has affected their designs for future systems. I'll note that they don't seem to offer an electric model anymore, is that the case? I'm not sure the Lagoon experience was a good one for electric boats. I don't know what happened with those models or with Solomon but the scuttlebutt was the systems didn't perform to expectations, were terribly expensive, unreliable, and were quickly dumped by their owners and the company as well, as we all know perceptions can be more important than the truth, take for instance the lack of diesel powered small vehicles in the US, the rest of the world loves them but if you ask an American about diesel cars they'll recall the loud, smelly, slow Mercedes Benz models from the 70s (which I happen to think are pretty cool). I have no idea if those things are true, I know we have a member who has one and likes it and his experience is invaluable around here; but those rumors and tales, whether there was any basis to them at all, for all I know it was the oil companies whispering things around the docks, have probably scared off more builders and buyers than they encouraged. I do know from many years ago the founder of Solomon made a lot of outlandish claims and generally wasn't the guy you'd want to listen to when it came to electric motors but he's since left the company. I'm not claiming to know the story, really I guess I'm asking if anyone here knows any more than the dock side chatter I've gotten up to this point, some internet scuttlebutt is better than some dock scuttlebutt isn't it? In general I'd rather make modest claims and surprise people than make outlandish claims and disappoint, but I'm no salesman. I'm sure the Hunter guys followed all of that with interest and I'll add that to the list of things to ask them if I head over there. ?
They aren't really my style either but they'll sell more of those 27es than probably every other electric sailboat model combined up to this point. Really I'm surprised Catalina didn't get there first, they're usually more of the leader in this relationship, there could be all kinds of business dynamics going on; Catalina could be waiting to see how Hunter does, Catalina may not have been able to get the motors in the quantities they needed but Hunter could with a smaller production run, the President of Elco may be sleeping with the purchasing agent over at Hunter, who knows. Beneteau would have been my second guess but they had their electric outing in Lagoon, I'd like to think they have a blockbuster system up their sleeve but really the innovation potential in electric drives for boats is pretty low. The current tech is pretty much maxed out, the motors and controllers are super efficient, its just batteries that hold everything back, if the battery technology would show up then we'd all be off to the races, until then we're just hoping the wind doesn't quit. There's also the R&D costs involved, the margins on small boats is already pretty thin and you can guess there aren't a lot of people buying those entry level yachts these days, I'm sure Hunter is taking a chance but for better or worse they do seem to 'innovate' (i.e. do weird things) more than Catalina, such as the B&R rig, or those round cockpits they were using back in the late 90s. ?
Good call. David ?
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Re: High end electric/diesel yacht
David,
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The electric power from my local utility is confirmed to be more than 20% supplied by renewable sources. The largest coal powered plant within 300 miles was decommisioned in 2005. The bulk of our local power generation is from natural gas, so I would say that the electricity in my area is considerably cleaner than power from IC engines. In our area, electricity is not used much for heating anything, water, cooking and area heating is usually natural gas because it is more efficient (cheaper) overall, it just happens to be cleaner too. Moving on to the trickle down process, I would use the Solomon/Lagoon joint venture as an example. The handful of charter catamarans that were put into service provided enough feedback from regular users, that Solomon re-engineered the systems that they sell to people like you or me. Those charter cats were pulled from service and "new and improved" versions were released later. (I believe that one of the early Lagoons is owned by someone in this group). The real world experience gained from less than a dozen of these large boats has influenced many later ventures, I would bet that the Hunter engineers are very aware of what worked there and what didn't. About the Hunter 27e, I think that the Hunter 27 is a reasonable modern production boat, though not my cup of tea. Using Elco's "drop-in" diesel replacement should be pretty straightforward. I give Hunter a big thumbs up for putting the option out there, even if they haven't built one yet (does anybody know?). I've heard that Catalina out here on the west coast is discussing electric options too. I'll move any more thoughts about the Hunter to its own thread. Fair winds, Eric Marina del Rey, CA converting my 1964 Cheoy Lee Bermuda 30 ketch --- In electricboats@..., David Goldsmith <suntreader@...> wrote:
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Re: [Electric Boats] High end electric/diesel yacht
David Goldsmith
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Eric <ewdysar@...> wrote:
Respectfully, the EPA methodology isn't as foolproof as a single number can explain. Electric cars, unless they are being charged from a known renewable source, such as wind, solar, biomass, or hydro, do have emissions associated with their use, but determining those emissions is a case-by-case situation starting from their charging outlet and ending up at the mine or the well where the fuel originates. I have no doubt that electric cars, when compared to conventional cars, use less energy to drive around, but I think its more from their owners attention to weight, driving habits, and design of the vehicle rather than something inherent in using grid power instead of point of use power. ?
No argument there. Boats are pleasure objects, they're all wonderful when they fulfill the desires of their owners, and I'd never tell someone they had a 'bad boat' as long as it made them happy. Electrics are a great way to power a whole lot of boats out there, but 50 foot planing cruisers isn't one of them, at least not yet. Personally, I'd rather have electrics over an engine any day as long as it met my needs, but that's personal, a lot of people just love big loud engines and more power to them (no pun intended), boats are for personal fun after all. ?
My discussion certainly is speculative, I haven't been on the boat and probably never will be (but would love a ride if anyone is offering!) maybe someone with some experience running large yachts like this one could weigh in on how they see the electrics being advantageous? For all I know slow speed maneuvering may very well be a big problem with large planning boats, and the engines idle being too loud early in the morning may be a big problem too, I'm sure someone with some experience could give some more examples. Advertising materials get away with an awful lot, legally anyone can pretty much say anything they like, whether that is a good thing or not is an entirely different discussion that has nothing to do with electric boats so thankfully we don't have to get into it, but personally (just me talking here), I think its a stretch to talk about zero emissions and about 'hybrid' because these terms imply something to consumers, and what it implies isn't what this boat does. I'd say the same thing about a whole lot of advertising out there, not trying to single these guys out. ?
I'm certainly willing to discount, ridicule, even mock the opinions of others if they're sufficiently stupid, it doesn't happen often, and it hasn't happened around here, but I reserve that right:) You make a good point that this is a pleasure boat, and I didn't mean to suggest that any of our boats are 'efficient' or anything like that, its all surplus when it goes into our toys and that's wonderful, from the silliest little lake schooner to the ugliest mega yacht, and certainly to my ancient sailboat, boats are all just fun things not to be taken too seriously. If they would have just described the boat and its systems then I'd probably be more interested in its drive than anything else, but when they go on about how its a planing hull & a displacement hull & has prop tunnels & and is super efficient because it can put around at 8 knots on the electrics, well, come on, I can't let that go:) ?
Sure, no problem with any and everyone buying anything they like. I would question whether there is anything here that's going to trickle down to the rest of us. I mean, they'll probably build what, ten of these total? The systems aren't completely specified but I would guess the components are all off-the-shelf items (at least as much as they can be in boats) rather than representing a break through in motors, controllers, batteries, or gearing. There won't be enough to bring down costs on the components, and the system isn't one that would scale down to the more pedestrian boats discussed around here. At this point in the technology, motors and controllers are mature technologies that are slowly developing but there isn't much more in the way of efficiency to get out of an electric motor. The next big tech needs to come in batteries and the next big technology will move not just boats but transportation, consumer items, and probably just about everything else forward will be energy storage, so I wouldn't think this particular product is going to make that happen either. Can we talk about how great that new Hunter 27e is? I drive by the plant all the time, if the group would like to put together some questions I'm sure I could make an appointment to go and talk to the designers and see some being built (if they're in production yet.) David ?
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Re: [Electric Boats] High end electric/diesel yacht
David Goldsmith
John,
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That is sometimes offered as a reason for better emissions but it isn't always the case, and whether it is or is not comes down to a ton of factors. On one end of the scale if the marina (or your garage) was powered from a solar or wind station then even with all kinds of inefficiencies in the system there would be fewer emissions involved. At the other end if the power is coming from a coal plant hundreds of miles away then you're probably emitting less just burning the fuel where you are. This comes up when trying to figure out whether a gas range or an electric produced more emissions, if the power plant is burning the same natural gas as the stove is then its going to be more efficient to just burn it at the stove than to burn it at the power plan, convert it to electricity, send the electricity down the lines, and then convert it to heat, better to just make the heat at the point of use. It feels intuitive than an electric application produces fewer emissions than a fuel burning one but that's largely because the emissions aren't right in front of us with an electric. The case of plug-in hybrids is similar, if your power comes from coal (like most of ours in the US does) then you're probably making more emissions with a plug-in instead of just burning it where you need the the energy, you could start calculating your mileage in tons of coal instead of gallons of gas. Just as an experiment a few months ago I worked through some of the equations to try and figure out whether my gas law mower was producing more emissions than my neighbor's electric law mower. Our municipal power here comes from a coal plant. I burn about 2 gallons of gas a year in my mower. I didn't have the emissions levels for the local plant or any idea of the efficiency of the grid bringing the power over to our houses so those were just estimates in the equation. The solution was he was probably producing more emissions? using an electric mower than I was with my gas mower. His mower uses less power to do the job because of the limits of 120V electric outlets, but the exhaust from my gas mower makes a lot less of the bad emissions that a coal plant does. The equation could easily have tipped the other way with a more efficient power plant or a better distribution grid, but it would still be pretty close. Of course, the guy down the block who mows once a year does better than either of us! Its certainly true that a power plant can be more efficient with its fuel use per useful energy out, but most power plants aren't that modern and even most of the new ones aren't using the best technology either, even with the greater efficiency you have to take into account the transmission of the energy, which can sap over half of it in some cases. I guess the short answer is if you're burning fuel where you need the power then you know exactly what you're using, if you're plugging in then you have no idea, without a lot of work, how much energy is being used or what the emissions might be. David On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 4:20 PM, John Riehl <riehlj2002@...> wrote:
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Re: [Electric Boats] High end electric/diesel yacht
David,
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I've been involved with electric car conversions for about 15 years, and I have seen the same emission arguments against electric cars. Some people have claimed that electric cars should have higher emissions per mile that average cars due to local power sources. There is now solid evidence to the contrary, the Nissan Leaf is recognized with EPA gas milage equivalent of 99mpg with holistic emissions much lower than the latest gasoline hybrids or hyper-efficient diesels. As far as "what's the point", their use case is different than my boating needs; however, that doesn't make their use case any less valid. I know a number of large power boaters that use their boats for "sunset harbor cruises" more than half the time that they cast off from the dock. That usage is low speed and could be entirely covered by shore power charging, the diesels would not need to be started at all. I agree that given the setup, the electric drives are probably not designed to add power beyond the capabilities of the IC engines, like some automotive hybrids, but again, the use case is different for a boat instead of a car. The statement that you have no experience with this type of boat makes your arguments against the concept more speculative than practical. I didn't see anything in their marketing info that was any more misleading than what you see in regular promotional propaganda for non-hybrid boats (or cars, or cell phones, or coffee makers, etc...) Like you, I personally don't believe that pleasure boats like the ones that we discuss in this group benefit from hybrid drive systems because of the additional complexity, weight, cost, etc. But I know that some people here feel differently and I'm not willing to discount other opinions just because I don't agree with them. We all get to spend our money and time however we like, so more power to whomever wants to buy one these yachts. And I'm guessing that even we will eventually gain benefits from this type of "leading edge" product with the lessons learned from supporting mainstream users. Fair winds, Eric Marina del Rey, CA --- In electricboats@..., David Goldsmith <suntreader@...> wrote:
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Re: [Electric Boats] High end electric/diesel yacht
On the issue of emissions, the whole point of plug-in hybrid cars is that the energy you get from the electric grid is generated more cleanly per kWh than from an ICE due to more efficiency in a large-scale power plant. ?Shouldn't the same hold true for a plug-in hybrid boat? John
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