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Blue Planet Cats video

 

I probably missed this being posted but I'll post it anyway.



So this thing is suppose to sleep 6. Take a look at the shots down the hull from the bow. Those hulls are pretty narrow, no solar or wind power shown either. Also where is the genset he mentioned stored?

Steve in Solomons MD
Re: Converting an Albin 27

 

Glenn,

I wouldn't go smaller than a 90 or 100Ah Li battery bank, small banks have bigger issues with Peukert's Effect, they lose more power under high load rates. You could also consider 4 group 31 AGM (105Ah) to begin with, they would weigh about 280 pounds, but you should get about an 8Nm range at 4Kts to 80% DoD. Then after you win the lottery, you can upgrade to the latest Li batteries. :)

If you're thinking generator, Mike has been successful with his Honda 2000 and a charger, I think that he can put about 15A into his system when the generator is running, that is about half of your 4kt load, so your batteires should last twice as long at that speed. There are some chargers available that can deliver more than 20A at 48V running on a Honda or Yamaha 2000 generator. The generator should be on deck while running. But the good part is that you don't need to set it up until you think that tyou need the range. If it's truly a day sail, you can leave the generator ashore.

It sounds like your getting your head wrapped around this project. Let us know if you need more info as you do more research.

Fair winds,
Eric

--- In electricboats@..., "Glenn Dennis" <vega1184@...> wrote:

Eric

Thanks for the input, IMO the battery is key here.

The actual power required to push the boat and the reserve capacity was what I was unsure of. It's good to get advice from some one who has experience in the field rather than just going it alone. Truthfully I had been more interested in the mechanical part of the system and did not put much effort in calculating the battery requirements. I was a little optimistic on range but I could start with smaller pack and go larger later. L/A or AGM will certainly add a lot of weight, maybe a smaller lithium pack, say 40 or 50 Ah and generator (Hybrid) would be the way to go. Several things to consider and of course cost; the boat although in very good shape is 39 years old.

Glenn
Re: Converting an Albin 27

Glenn Dennis
 

Eric

Thanks for the input, IMO the battery is key here.

The actual power required to push the boat and the reserve capacity was what I was unsure of. It's good to get advice from some one who has experience in the field rather than just going it alone. Truthfully I had been more interested in the mechanical part of the system and did not put much effort in calculating the battery requirements. I was a little optimistic on range but I could start with smaller pack and go larger later. L/A or AGM will certainly add a lot of weight, maybe a smaller lithium pack, say 40 or 50 Ah and generator (Hybrid) would be the way to go. Several things to consider and of course cost; the boat although in very good shape is 39 years old.

Glenn

--- In electricboats@..., "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:

Glenn,

Good reasoning on developing your budget, but I find your orignal budget a little aggressive, you will propbably go over that number by the time you get a running conversion with basic instrumentation. You can leave some stuff off, but you'll probably end up spending the money eventually. To do the project as you describe, I would brace yourself for about $5k US. Who knows, you could even come in under that...

Looking at your design parameter, you said that your basic "stretch" requirement is 20Mn @ 4kts. I find that somewhat challenging but still reasonable. Let's do a little math.. :)

Because we don't know anything else about your system yet, we'll have to go with some broad estimates. But I will go out on a limb and state that these "guesses" will be closer than you might think.

The first assumption is that your boat will take about 1500W (2hp) to power at 4kts. You might do better, you could do worse, but this is close enough for estimating. At 4kts, you'll need 5 hours of capacity. I never estimate a battery pack at more than 80% depth of discharge (DoD), even if the battery chemistry can take it. If you think about it, when was the last time that you ran your car to 100% DoD of the gas tank? I think that we all fill up before we run completely out of fuel and typically treat our boats the same.

Speaking of battery chemistry, different types of batteries act differently in storing energy, delivering energy and their lifespan measured in charging cycles. How far you regularly discharge your batteries can affect their lifespan, but this thread is not the place for that discussion, I don't want to get sidetracked...

So for your battery types, I will use 65% DoD for flooded batteries (FLA) and 80% DoD for AGM. If you want to use different DoD, let me know and I can recalculate the numbers.

So we're aiming for 5 hrs at 1500W. Here we go....

FLA batteries like T-105s or T-125s have a Peukerts exponent of 1.25 and using a 65% DoD, you need 14kWh to give you the required 9100Wh usable to run for 5 hours. That's 290Ah of FLA batteries at 48V. US Battery makes the US305EXC 290Ah 6V battery that weighs 102 pounds; you would need 8 batteries for a combined weight of 816 pounds. These batteries seem to cost about $200 a piece or $1600 for your boat

AGM batteries have a Peukerts exponent around 1.15 and using a 80% DoD, you need 11kWh to give you the required 8800Wh usable to run for 5 hours. That's 230Ah of AGM batteries at 48V. Trojan makes the 8D-AGM 230Ah 12V battery that weighs 167 pounds; you would need 4 batteries for a combined weight of 668 pounds. These batteries appear to cost around $650 online or $2600 for your boat

Just for fun, let's look at LiFePO4 batteries, they have a Peukerts exponent around 1.05 and using a 80% DoD, you need 10kWh to give you the required 8000Wh usable to run for 5 hours. That's 200Ah of LiFePO4 batteries at 48V. Thundersky makes the TS-LYP-200AHA 200Ah 3.2V battery that weighs 16.1 pounds; you would need 16 cells for a combined weight of 260 pounds. These batteries cost $260 or $4160 for your boat. Lithium batteries should have extra protection; a battery management system (BMS) will cost approximately $500 for these batteries, pushing the cost to around $4700.

Whew, that's a lot of info, but I suggest that you mull it over for a while and see how it feels. Another answer is to change your requirements, a 15 mile range @ 4kts is obviously cheaper and lighter and so is 20Nm @ 3kts.

But I like your original request, my 30' ketch conversion with LiFePO4 batteries is spec'd to run 16Nm @ 4 kts. I should be able to verify that performance within a month or two and I'll post my results here.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA


--- In electricboats@..., "Glenn Dennis" <vega1184@> wrote:

Eric and all

I set the budget based on what it would cost me to repower with a new/old stock diesel (Volvo MD2001 9 Hp, 1 Cyl). I currently have a non-working inboard gas with feathering prop (Albin Combi drive) that is too small to work with anything else. I use a 9.9 outboard mounted on the transom, it works for the most part but if there is over 2 or 3 ft swell the prop tends to come out of the water and you can't charge the house batteries. Most of my motoring is just out and in to the Club, less than 10 min @ 3 or 4 Kts, each way most days. Top speed is not a real concern 5 or 5.5 kts would be more than enough, but would I have to have longer range for when you have to get back. I would like 20 Nm @ 4kts. I have had the boat two years now and mostly just day sail with a couple of weekend trips every now and then, but I want to do longer trips. Also I sail solo often.

With either option I will need Prop, shaft, coupling, exhaust, etc. Because of design the largest prop I could fit would be 13 inches, maybe 14 if I could get it back far enough, I was considering a 13 X 13 pitch. As for space the Vega is blessed/cursed with 23" wide X 48" long X 16" high void behind the current engine occupied by only an exhaust pipe. Also it's easy to make wider, I could fit 4 X 8d batteries no problem. Weight however would be another issue at 4 x 66 kg she may have a bow up attitude. I could try to keep them as for forward as possible may making a step cover for one. 6 volt GC batteries would be easier to distribute.

"As long as you approach this project with your eyes open to what it really means, then you shouldn't be disappointed."

That's why I'm here, trying to learn as much as possible before I comitt to the project. Oh and it would be nice to have a quiet "green" boat.


Glenn
AC vs DC Motor

akenai
 

I have been looking at the AC-13 or AC-15 AC Motors they are large enough to use on my 36' steel hull, But I have not found much info that I could understand as to compair them to DC motors other than the few DC drives that are in the higher hp range and then the cost gets to extreme. www.thunderstruck-ev.com carries the set as well as
www.currentevtech.com These look like a nice package and the price dosent seam to bad.
Anyone familer with these? Arby talked about AC awhile back.

Aaron
Re: Converting an Albin 27

 

Glenn,

Good reasoning on developing your budget, but I find your orignal budget a little aggressive, you will propbably go over that number by the time you get a running conversion with basic instrumentation. You can leave some stuff off, but you'll probably end up spending the money eventually. To do the project as you describe, I would brace yourself for about $5k US. Who knows, you could even come in under that...

Looking at your design parameter, you said that your basic "stretch" requirement is 20Mn @ 4kts. I find that somewhat challenging but still reasonable. Let's do a little math.. :)

Because we don't know anything else about your system yet, we'll have to go with some broad estimates. But I will go out on a limb and state that these "guesses" will be closer than you might think.

The first assumption is that your boat will take about 1500W (2hp) to power at 4kts. You might do better, you could do worse, but this is close enough for estimating. At 4kts, you'll need 5 hours of capacity. I never estimate a battery pack at more than 80% depth of discharge (DoD), even if the battery chemistry can take it. If you think about it, when was the last time that you ran your car to 100% DoD of the gas tank? I think that we all fill up before we run completely out of fuel and typically treat our boats the same.

Speaking of battery chemistry, different types of batteries act differently in storing energy, delivering energy and their lifespan measured in charging cycles. How far you regularly discharge your batteries can affect their lifespan, but this thread is not the place for that discussion, I don't want to get sidetracked...

So for your battery types, I will use 65% DoD for flooded batteries (FLA) and 80% DoD for AGM. If you want to use different DoD, let me know and I can recalculate the numbers.

So we're aiming for 5 hrs at 1500W. Here we go....

FLA batteries like T-105s or T-125s have a Peukerts exponent of 1.25 and using a 65% DoD, you need 14kWh to give you the required 9100Wh usable to run for 5 hours. That's 290Ah of FLA batteries at 48V. US Battery makes the US305EXC 290Ah 6V battery that weighs 102 pounds; you would need 8 batteries for a combined weight of 816 pounds. These batteries seem to cost about $200 a piece or $1600 for your boat

AGM batteries have a Peukerts exponent around 1.15 and using a 80% DoD, you need 11kWh to give you the required 8800Wh usable to run for 5 hours. That's 230Ah of AGM batteries at 48V. Trojan makes the 8D-AGM 230Ah 12V battery that weighs 167 pounds; you would need 4 batteries for a combined weight of 668 pounds. These batteries appear to cost around $650 online or $2600 for your boat

Just for fun, let's look at LiFePO4 batteries, they have a Peukerts exponent around 1.05 and using a 80% DoD, you need 10kWh to give you the required 8000Wh usable to run for 5 hours. That's 200Ah of LiFePO4 batteries at 48V. Thundersky makes the TS-LYP-200AHA 200Ah 3.2V battery that weighs 16.1 pounds; you would need 16 cells for a combined weight of 260 pounds. These batteries cost $260 or $4160 for your boat. Lithium batteries should have extra protection; a battery management system (BMS) will cost approximately $500 for these batteries, pushing the cost to around $4700.

Whew, that's a lot of info, but I suggest that you mull it over for a while and see how it feels. Another answer is to change your requirements, a 15 mile range @ 4kts is obviously cheaper and lighter and so is 20Nm @ 3kts.

But I like your original request, my 30' ketch conversion with LiFePO4 batteries is spec'd to run 16Nm @ 4 kts. I should be able to verify that performance within a month or two and I'll post my results here.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@..., "Glenn Dennis" <vega1184@...> wrote:

Eric and all

I set the budget based on what it would cost me to repower with a new/old stock diesel (Volvo MD2001 9 Hp, 1 Cyl). I currently have a non-working inboard gas with feathering prop (Albin Combi drive) that is too small to work with anything else. I use a 9.9 outboard mounted on the transom, it works for the most part but if there is over 2 or 3 ft swell the prop tends to come out of the water and you can't charge the house batteries. Most of my motoring is just out and in to the Club, less than 10 min @ 3 or 4 Kts, each way most days. Top speed is not a real concern 5 or 5.5 kts would be more than enough, but would I have to have longer range for when you have to get back. I would like 20 Nm @ 4kts. I have had the boat two years now and mostly just day sail with a couple of weekend trips every now and then, but I want to do longer trips. Also I sail solo often.

With either option I will need Prop, shaft, coupling, exhaust, etc. Because of design the largest prop I could fit would be 13 inches, maybe 14 if I could get it back far enough, I was considering a 13 X 13 pitch. As for space the Vega is blessed/cursed with 23" wide X 48" long X 16" high void behind the current engine occupied by only an exhaust pipe. Also it's easy to make wider, I could fit 4 X 8d batteries no problem. Weight however would be another issue at 4 x 66 kg she may have a bow up attitude. I could try to keep them as for forward as possible may making a step cover for one. 6 volt GC batteries would be easier to distribute.

"As long as you approach this project with your eyes open to what it really means, then you shouldn't be disappointed."

That's why I'm here, trying to learn as much as possible before I comitt to the project. Oh and it would be nice to have a quiet "green" boat.


Glenn
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Hunter 27 has electric option

David Goldsmith
 



On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Eric <ewdysar@...> wrote:
?

Hmmm. I just checked the Hunter website and it says the Hunter 27 waterline length is 23'7". But that's just a minor detail... It doesn't change the general results much.

Ah, yep I see. I was going on the numbers published by Sail in their little write up, they've got the hull length that Hunter lists as the LWL and don't make mention of the LWL from the Hunter spec. Either way, its still got a pretty good water line for its LOA, of course all that changes once you start heeling or loading it down. I seem to remember a few years ago them selling a Hunter 26 that was the same boat but with an outboard instead of an inboard and some pretension to trailering, but I may be fuzzy on that. I do remember sailing our old '77 27 into St. Augustine coming back from the Bahamas and one of the brand new Hunter 27s sailing by us and asking us where we'd been (the Q flag was up and we had clearly been 'out there' for a while.)
?


But we're obviously on the same page. BTW, the Elco drive certainly looks sturdy, I wonder how much that unit weighs. There's a picture on the ELCO 27e brochure that is linked to the Hunter 27 spec page on the Hunter US website.

It looks like a serious little drive doesn't it! I'd really like to get a look inside that case.

David
?

Eric



--- In electricboats@..., David Goldsmith wrote:
>
> I love it when you lay it out for us. I'd like to throw in a few points
> however. The Catalina 30 actually has a shorter waterline, its listed as
> 25', while the Hunter 27 has a full 27' waterline and the Hunter's
> displacement is listed as about 7,600 lbs, while the Catalina weighs in at
> 10,200. The current Hunter 27 really isn't in the same class as the older
> Hunters of that length or the Catalinas. Its more of a stretched 25 footer
> than a roomy cruiser.
>
> Those other numbers won't dramatically affect what usually works out to a
> lot of factors like how the boat is loaded, the condition of the batteries,
> and the weather and sea conditions. I wouldn't put it past them to be
> quoting range and speed that assume you're sailing down hill:)
>
> I would assume, but take this with a grain of salt, that Hunter and Elco
> would have this set up very well optimized and worked out. They've both got
> extensive experience and complete control over every component so they
> should be able to make a good show of things. We'll know as soon as someone
> on the list buys one, any takers?
>
> David
>
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Eric wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > David,
> >
> > I ran some quick numbers to see if 20 miles at 6kts is reasonable from that
> > battery bank.
> >
> > 214Ah @ 72V = 15.4kWh
> > 80% depth of discharge = 12.3kWh usable...

> >
> > So I would believe 20nm @ 4.5kts from specific info that you posted from
> > Hunter. That is very good performance from an electric conversion of this size....

> >
> > Of course, these are all estimates based on experience collected here and
> > with other electric conversions. Hunter's results may vary, the only
> > effective way to find out is to put one of their 27e's through its paces.
> > Let's hope that someone here buys one and gives a detailed performance and
> > efficiency report.
> >
> > Fair winds,
> > Eric
> > Marina del Rey, CA
> >
[Electric Boats] Re: feasible regen

 

Bill,

So you were getting about 60 watts at 4 or 5 knots? That's right back where this conversation started.... I find it much more effective to talk about watts instead of amps in this kind of discussion due to the varied voltages that are used by different boats.

But I think that you're on the right track. By using a dedicated water powered generator, that entire component can be optimized for extracting power from the water flowing by at the speeds that you expect to achieve regularly. An additional benefit is, like you said, you don't have to take the performance hit unless you choose to harvest power.

The typical problem with using an electric drive for regen is that a prop that is optimized for providing thrust will not be as efficient for collecting energy and vice versa.

I noticed that Robbie stated that he uses 2 dedicated Aquair units rather than the drive unit regen typically discussed here, the Aquairs obviously don't function as drives too. And the same performance data keeps coming up. From the Aquair website "The reason for the choice is that when sailing downwind at 6 knots, the Aquair 100 Water Drive generates approx. 5 amps continuous charge." So they quote 60 watts (5A x 12V) from 6 knots of boat speed. Their chart also shows less than 25 watts from 4 knots of boat speed. That works out to less than 0.5A charging for my 48V boat, or 1 solid week of continuous sailing to charge my 8kWh battery bank from 50% discharged. That assumes no other electrical loads along the way.

So I'm back to my original premise. Regen will not provide any significant charging to a traction battery bank for most conversions being discussed here. Regen or water generators can provide enough to cover most house loads but not much more.

I would personally love to be proven wrong on this premise, but I'm still waiting....

Fair winds,
Eric

--- In electricboats@..., Steamboat Willie <stmbtwle@...> wrote:

Eric I'd look into a taffrail generator like that sold by Hamilton Ferris.?? I finally gave mine away after giving up sailing, but it would put out a pretty reliable 4-5 amps at 4-5 knots on my 26' Pearson monohull.?? It didn't weigh much and would certainly keep ahead of my electrical loads.???? I even used it when I was motoring to supplement the rather puny outboard alternator.????

Nice thing about the contraption is I could bring it aboard when I was more interested in speed than generating...?? Only problem I had with it was it seemed to have an affinity for seaweed...

Bill
Re: New guy Questions

Glenn Dennis
 

Eric and all

I set the budget based on what it would cost me to repower with a new/old stock diesel (Volvo MD2001 9 Hp, 1 Cyl). I currently have a non-working inboard gas with feathering prop (Albin Combi drive) that is too small to work with anything else. I use a 9.9 outboard mounted on the transom, it works for the most part but if there is over 2 or 3 ft swell the prop tends to come out of the water and you can't charge the house batteries. Most of my motoring is just out and in to the Club, less than 10 min @ 3 or 4 Kts, each way most days. Top speed is not a real concern 5 or 5.5 kts would be more than enough, but would I have to have longer range for when you have to get back. I would like 20 Nm @ 4kts. I have had the boat two years now and mostly just day sail with a couple of weekend trips every now and then, but I want to do longer trips. Also I sail solo often.

With either option I will need Prop, shaft, coupling, exhaust, etc. Because of design the largest prop I could fit would be 13 inches, maybe 14 if I could get it back far enough, I was considering a 13 X 13 pitch. As for space the Vega is blessed/cursed with 23" wide X 48" long X 16" high void behind the current engine occupied by only an exhaust pipe. Also it's easy to make wider, I could fit 4 X 8d batteries no problem. Weight however would be another issue at 4 x 66 kg she may have a bow up attitude. I could try to keep them as for forward as possible may making a step cover for one. 6 volt GC batteries would be easier to distribute.

"As long as you approach this project with your eyes open to what it really means, then you shouldn't be disappointed."

That's why I'm here, trying to learn as much as possible before I comitt to the project. Oh and it would be nice to have a quiet "green" boat.


Glenn

--- In electricboats@..., "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:

Glenn,

I'm interested in your budget. How much would a diesel re-power cost for your boat? Are you considering electric primarily because you think that it is a cheaper alternative to ICE?

You should seriously think about the compromises that you're signing up for. A 500 lb flooded or AGM battery bank will drive your boat about as far as 0.75 gallons of diesel. The Vega is a small boat, do you have room for eight 6V golf cart batteries or four 4D batteries?

A new Beta twin diesel weighs about 200 pounds. A decent sized electric drive will weigh 200+ lbs more than a diesel system, including a full 8 gallon fuel tank, that is sized for your boat.

How long have you been sailing your boat? How much fuel do you usually burn over the course of your regular trip? When I realized that I rarely burned one whole gallon per trip in my boat, electric drive became more feasible. I'll spend at least 80% of what I would have spent for a diesel re-power that I did myself, so I'm not doing it to save money.

As long as you approach this project with your eyes open to what it really means, then you shouldn't be disappointed. i've seen a number of newly converted boats that obviously did not meet their owner's expectations.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA


--- In electricboats@..., "vega1184" <vega1184@> wrote:

I need to repower my 27' sailboat was looking at a diesel but electric has interested me. I have a strong mechanical background and some electrical experience mostly automotive and a little residential, that being said I can safety repair most anything; it's designing where I may need some help. I have a very healthy respect for electricity and always ensure cables are properly terminated, sealed and secured, all grounds are in place and all batteries secured.
First off budget is an issue I don't want to go over $4K, from prop to batteries, is this possible? Rough guess shaft, prop, bearings, etc $1K. Kit something like Thunderstruck, Sevcon Brushless Sailboat Kit - 8.5KW () $1.5K. Wiring, motor mount, belt drive reduction, misc bits $0.5K. That leaves $1K for batteries and chargers, not much I know, but I could add more later. I would thinks 48 volt would be better (at least safer), but amps are starting to get high. Batteries, I guess I would have to go with AGM, have some space, would love LiFePO4 but out of my buget right now. Any one have any suggestions?

Boat Specs
1971 Albin Vega
LOA 27'
LWL 23'
Beam 8' at WL 7'
Displ average 6500 Lbs

Glenn
Re: Hunter 27 has electric option

 

Hmmm. I just checked the Hunter website and it says the Hunter 27 waterline length is 23'7". But that's just a minor detail... It doesn't change the general results much.

But we're obviously on the same page. BTW, the Elco drive certainly looks sturdy, I wonder how much that unit weighs. There's a picture on the ELCO 27e brochure that is linked to the Hunter 27 spec page on the Hunter US website.

Eric

--- In electricboats@..., David Goldsmith <suntreader@...> wrote:

I love it when you lay it out for us. I'd like to throw in a few points
however. The Catalina 30 actually has a shorter waterline, its listed as
25', while the Hunter 27 has a full 27' waterline and the Hunter's
displacement is listed as about 7,600 lbs, while the Catalina weighs in at
10,200. The current Hunter 27 really isn't in the same class as the older
Hunters of that length or the Catalinas. Its more of a stretched 25 footer
than a roomy cruiser.

Those other numbers won't dramatically affect what usually works out to a
lot of factors like how the boat is loaded, the condition of the batteries,
and the weather and sea conditions. I wouldn't put it past them to be
quoting range and speed that assume you're sailing down hill:)

I would assume, but take this with a grain of salt, that Hunter and Elco
would have this set up very well optimized and worked out. They've both got
extensive experience and complete control over every component so they
should be able to make a good show of things. We'll know as soon as someone
on the list buys one, any takers?

David

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Eric <ewdysar@...> wrote:



David,

I ran some quick numbers to see if 20 miles at 6kts is reasonable from that
battery bank.

214Ah @ 72V = 15.4kWh
80% depth of discharge = 12.3kWh usable...

So I would believe 20nm @ 4.5kts from specific info that you posted from
Hunter. That is very good performance from an electric conversion of this size....

Of course, these are all estimates based on experience collected here and
with other electric conversions. Hunter's results may vary, the only
effective way to find out is to put one of their 27e's through its paces.
Let's hope that someone here buys one and gives a detailed performance and
efficiency report.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA
Re: [Electric Boats] ELCO

Charlie Girsch
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I've been in touch with the former owner of ELCO and he offers the following information:

The best information and best recommendation I can?pass on is to have people call Holden Hayes at Spincraft boats.? Holden has picked up all the service and sales to the Elco customers.? He is the best in the business and his contact information is listed below.
?
Mr. G. Holden Hayes
Spincraft Electric Boats
2595 Blackwell Street, Unit 108
Ottawa, Canada K1B 4E4
800.313.7913

- charlie g -



On 2010-11-23 07:15, David Hughes wrote:
?

Elco is located here on the east coast, NY I think, and is one of the oldest companies dedicated to electric boating. However, they have gone through many ownership changes and challenges with one very recently. I tried contacting them this past year for my project and after several phone calls and the total lack of information, I gave up. I do hope they have figured it out and got beyond their troubles.

--- In electricboats@..., David Goldsmith wrote:
>
> I don't have any more info than is available from Hunter or from a brief
> article in Sail:
>
>
>
> I know I gave that last boat a hard time, so let me make it up by saying
> this is a pretty sweet little set up. Elco is a very good name in electric
> boats, I'd love to have their systems and expertise designing my set up. The
> batteries are six 210amp/hr AGMs (4d?), which is a good compromise on cost
> and easy of maintenance. This is just the right sized boat to have a system
> like this, small enough that the motor and battery requirements are
> reasonable, but big enough it can handle the weight and room. Their claimed
> 20 miles at 6 knots sounds reasonable and not like an 'ideal conditions at 2
> knots' type of situation.
>
> I'll note that the motor looks to be a very good system, completely
> enclosed, and possibly direct drive, its not clear if there is any gear
> reduction done in the case. Anyone familiar with Elco systems? The only
> concern I'd have is that it runs on 72V which is beyond the nominal 48V at
> which more safety concerns have to be addressed. I'm more comfortable with
> 48V but a professionally designed and installed system should be fine since
> they know what they're doing and I'm just tinkering.
>
> I didn't see any estimate on cost, I would assume it costs more than the
> standard diesel, but it really shouldn't be that much more.
>
> Sometimes Hunter is given a hard time for being one of the big-three of
> sailboats and producing a sort of mainstream product where price and quality
> have an inverse relationship. I owned a 1977 Hunter 27, the really tubby one
> designed by John Cherubini, and it was really a pretty good boat for what it
> was, built like a tank too. They've changed a lot since then of course. I
> took a tour of the factory a few years ago and was pretty impressed. They
> weren't quite the modern marvel the new Beneteau factories are but it was
> clean and well organized and there was still a lot of hand work going into
> assembling the interior components and installing the systems.
>
> This is the type of electric propulsion I think will be first to go
> mainstream, in boats that are really a little on the small side for a diesel
> and a little on the big size for an outboard, where low maintenance is more
> important than range under power. I really hope the other builders follow
> suit. As for the hobbyist, this is exactly the type of system that many of
> us are trying to build for our own boats of about this size and the more
> Hunter, Catalina, and Beneteau start offering these as options the better
> available and easier they will be for us to implement too.
>
> Very cool, thumbs up!
>
> David
>
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Todd wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I just saw that the Hunter 27 has an electric drive option from a company
> > named Elco. Anyone have more info on this?
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: [Electric Boats] Hunter 27 has electric option

David Goldsmith
 

I love it when you lay it out for us. I'd like to throw in a few points however. The Catalina 30 actually has a shorter waterline, its listed as 25', while the Hunter 27 has a full 27' waterline and the Hunter's displacement is listed as about 7,600 lbs, while the Catalina weighs in at 10,200. The current Hunter 27 really isn't in the same class as the older Hunters of that length or the Catalinas. Its more of a stretched 25 footer than a roomy cruiser.

Those other numbers won't dramatically affect what usually works out to a lot of factors like how the boat is loaded, the condition of the batteries, and the weather and sea conditions. I wouldn't put it past them to be quoting range and speed that assume you're sailing down hill:)

I would assume, but take this with a grain of salt, that Hunter and Elco would have this set up very well optimized and worked out. They've both got extensive experience and complete control over every component so they should be able to make a good show of things. We'll know as soon as someone on the list buys one, any takers?

David


On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Eric <ewdysar@...> wrote:
?

David,

I ran some quick numbers to see if 20 miles at 6kts is reasonable from that battery bank.

214Ah @ 72V = 15.4kWh
80% depth of discharge = 12.3kWh usable

Using a Peukerts exponent of 1.15 for AGM to compensate for high amp draws, I backed into the constant load that would let the batteries last 3.3 hours (6kts x 3.3 hrs = 20nm)

The 3.3 hours rate to 80% depth of discharge is 42A @ 72V or 3024W. So the question becomes whether or not the Hunter 27e can cruise at 6kts while only using 3kW (4hp) of power. Given the observed data from similar boats, that might be optimistic. A Catalina 30 (longer waterline) conversion that is pretty well documented uses 3.2kW (4.2hp) to hit 5kts and 6 kts takes about 6kW (8hp).

So lets slow it down, just a little. The 4 hour rate (5kts x 4 hrs = 20nm) for this battery pack to 80% DoD is 36A @ 72V or 2592W. That looks like were getting closer with 2.6kW (3.4hp) to run at 5kts.

One step down, lets look at 4.5kts. The 4.45 hour rate (4.5kts x 4.45 hrs = 20nm) to 80% DoD is 32.5A @ 72V or 2340W. Now we're looking at 2.3kW (3.1hp) to drive the boat at 4.5kts and that rate sounds a lot like the numbers that various owners have reported in this group.

So I would believe 20nm @ 4.5kts from specific info that you posted from Hunter. That is very good performance from an electric conversion of this size.

If we use the rule of thumb that doubling the power will increase boat speed by 1.5kts, then 6 kts will take 4.7kW (6.2hp) and the batteries will be 80% discharged in 2 hours or 12nm. Again, this sounds a little optimistic to me, but somewhat believable). Hull speed on this boat works out to be between 6 and 6.5kts.

Of course, these are all estimates based on experience collected here and with other electric conversions. Hunter's results may vary, the only effective way to find out is to put one of their 27e's through its paces. Let's hope that someone here buys one and gives a detailed performance and efficiency report.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

I personally haven't found quick reviews in the glossy sail magazines to be the most technically reliable sources. This might be one of those marketing things, saying the boat can hit 6kts and has a range of 20nm doesn't necessarily mean that it can go 20nm at 6kts. :)



--- In electricboats@..., David Goldsmith <suntreader@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have any more info than is available from Hunter or from a brief
> article in Sail:
>
>
>
> I know I gave that last boat a hard time, so let me make it up by saying
> this is a pretty sweet little set up. Elco is a very good name in electric
> boats, I'd love to have their systems and expertise designing my set up. The
> batteries are six 210amp/hr AGMs (4d?), which is a good compromise on cost
> and easy of maintenance. This is just the right sized boat to have a system
> like this, small enough that the motor and battery requirements are
> reasonable, but big enough it can handle the weight and room. Their claimed
> 20 miles at 6 knots sounds reasonable and not like an 'ideal conditions at 2
> knots' type of situation....

>
>
> Very cool, thumbs up!
>
> David
>


Re: [Electric Boats] Re: feasible regen

 

Eric I'd look into a taffrail generator like that sold by Hamilton Ferris.? I finally gave mine away after giving up sailing, but it would put out a pretty reliable 4-5 amps at 4-5 knots on my 26' Pearson monohull.? It didn't weigh much and would certainly keep ahead of my electrical loads.?? I even used it when I was motoring to supplement the rather puny outboard alternator.??

Nice thing about the contraption is I could bring it aboard when I was more interested in speed than generating...? Only problem I had with it was it seemed to have an affinity for seaweed...

Bill


--- On Wed, 11/24/10, Eric wrote:

From: Eric
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: feasible regen
To: electricboats@...
Date: Wednesday, November 24, 2010, 4:35 PM

?

Steve,

I completely agree with you. My drive system is regen capable and I certainly won't disable that feature, any "free" power is welcome on my boat. But I will not count on any significant contribution to my charge from regen, it will be a present from Poseidon. Unfortunately, with my boat (a Herrschoff H-28 knockoff), 5kts is just about all I can count on, a 120 mile day would be stretching the boundaries. But like you have stated, 100W x 24 hours will deliver 2.4kWh a day and that will easily cover all but the most wasteful house loads. Now I just hope I can get 100W out of my drive....

On the trimaran, the outboard comes out of the water less than a minute after being shut down, so the only thing that I'm suffering is the weight. My offshore racing org's safety requirements is "Sufficient power and fuel for the boat to achieve a speed equal to the square root of her waterline (5kts for me), for a distance of 30 nautical miles in flat water without a headwind." 3 gallons of gas is technically enough, although I generally carry between 4 and 6 gallons for long races (that extra 20 pounds is worth my peace of mind). Electric is not yet feasible to meet this requirement.

BTW, in the last 3 years, I've spent more on new sails for the trimaran than my entire drive conversion with LiFePO4 batteries in the ketch. Don't let my wife find out.... :)

Fair winds,
Eric

--- In electricboats@..., Steve Dolan wrote:
>
> Eric,
> I would suggest that the regen may not be practical on a 2 or 3 hour 5 knot sail but what if you sail for a distance and use power for the stereo or a few gauges? What if the total usage of power during an overnight run equaled your regeneration rate? "Anything that is free is for me" so any power I can get is good thing. It may not be able to fully charge your batteries but it's better than nothing unless the drag exceeds the benefit. What if you're on the back of a 20 foot wave heading down and can get 6 amps (or more) all the way down and half the way up the next wave? You could run your motors at 2 knots and gain 50 miles in a 24 hour period at no cost. I didn't do the math but should be close. Anyway even a little regen is better than no regen. But then again the majority of boats here are smaller and don't travel as far. I think if I had a smaller boat and it was free or included in the package I would think of it as a plus. Now if I had a tri (I do have a MR2 spyder) for nothing but speed the weight would definitely be a consideration. I'm surprised you don't just have a couple of paddles! You could probably still get up to 5 knots :o)
>
> Steve in Solomons
>
>
> I know that my 30' ketch has only touched 6kts a couple of times in over 10 years. 5kts takes a solid breeze for my old boat. So I don't expect much from regen from my electric drive, even when headed offshore to our local islands.
>
> Alternatively, my 27' trimaran has hit 6kts boat speed in only 5kts true wind. If I converted that boat to electric, that kind of performance would no longer be possible. I'm not willing to sacrifice my good runs at 15kts+ boat speed to go electric. The 9.8hp outboard is auxilliary power that works for me.
>
[Electric Boats] Re: feasible regen

 

Steve,

I completely agree with you. My drive system is regen capable and I certainly won't disable that feature, any "free" power is welcome on my boat. But I will not count on any significant contribution to my charge from regen, it will be a present from Poseidon. Unfortunately, with my boat (a Herrschoff H-28 knockoff), 5kts is just about all I can count on, a 120 mile day would be stretching the boundaries. But like you have stated, 100W x 24 hours will deliver 2.4kWh a day and that will easily cover all but the most wasteful house loads. Now I just hope I can get 100W out of my drive....

On the trimaran, the outboard comes out of the water less than a minute after being shut down, so the only thing that I'm suffering is the weight. My offshore racing org's safety requirements is "Sufficient power and fuel for the boat to achieve a speed equal to the square root of her waterline (5kts for me), for a distance of 30 nautical miles in flat water without a headwind." 3 gallons of gas is technically enough, although I generally carry between 4 and 6 gallons for long races (that extra 20 pounds is worth my peace of mind). Electric is not yet feasible to meet this requirement.

BTW, in the last 3 years, I've spent more on new sails for the trimaran than my entire drive conversion with LiFePO4 batteries in the ketch. Don't let my wife find out.... :)

Fair winds,
Eric

--- In electricboats@..., Steve Dolan <sdolan@...> wrote:

Eric,
I would suggest that the regen may not be practical on a 2 or 3 hour 5 knot sail but what if you sail for a distance and use power for the stereo or a few gauges? What if the total usage of power during an overnight run equaled your regeneration rate? "Anything that is free is for me" so any power I can get is good thing. It may not be able to fully charge your batteries but it's better than nothing unless the drag exceeds the benefit. What if you're on the back of a 20 foot wave heading down and can get 6 amps (or more) all the way down and half the way up the next wave? You could run your motors at 2 knots and gain 50 miles in a 24 hour period at no cost. I didn't do the math but should be close. Anyway even a little regen is better than no regen. But then again the majority of boats here are smaller and don't travel as far. I think if I had a smaller boat and it was free or included in the package I would think of it as a plus. Now if I had a tri (I do have a MR2 spyder) for nothing but speed the weight would definitely be a consideration. I'm surprised you don't just have a couple of paddles! You could probably still get up to 5 knots :o)

Steve in Solomons


I know that my 30' ketch has only touched 6kts a couple of times in over 10 years. 5kts takes a solid breeze for my old boat. So I don't expect much from regen from my electric drive, even when headed offshore to our local islands.

Alternatively, my 27' trimaran has hit 6kts boat speed in only 5kts true wind. If I converted that boat to electric, that kind of performance would no longer be possible. I'm not willing to sacrifice my good runs at 15kts+ boat speed to go electric. The 9.8hp outboard is auxilliary power that works for me.
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: feasible regen

 

Paul,
I forgot about the prop design and you are correct. The pitch is more and 3 blades is a normal design. It's not a switch, you're in neutral or in my case a slight bump on. It's more again dependent on the size of the boat as to how much drag you incur. Heck I have 2 of them down there! Anything is going to incur drag but how much depends on a number of factors. A fast, light boat is going to be much more susceptible to anything hanging down below on a fixed installation. There are several manufactures with retractable props for smaller boats out there and I would probably be looking at that for light air. But us big nasty CondoCats are not so susceptible to anything hanging down. We might loose a 1/2 knot or 1 knot but we don't care sitting in the back drinking coolaid and burning the dogs! :o)

Steve in Solomons MD


Steve,

For me at least -- and this may be because I don't fully understand the technology -- the issue is that regen isn't just a switch you flip or an option you order with the controller...it's also about selecting a prop that can regen efficiently. Such a prop will incur worse drag whether it is re-gen'ing or not, correct?

My boat has a two-blade prop which hides in the aperture when vertical (or pretends to, at least). I feel like this makes a difference when sailing, though I don't have a knotmeter so I can't back that up with data. If I keep this prop (or one similar), my understanding is that regen performance will be even worse than otherwise.

In other words, you commit to the drag when you affix the prop, and you can't take it off in light air when you can't stand the drag.

Is this understanding correct?

Paul
--- In electricboats@..., Steve Dolan <sdolan@...> wrote:

Eric,
I would suggest that the regen may not be practical on a 2 or 3 hour 5 knot sail but what if you sail for a distance and use power for the stereo or a few gauges? What if the total usage of power during an overnight run equaled your regeneration rate? "Anything that is free is for me" so any power I can get is good thing. It may not be able to fully charge your batteries but it's better than nothing unless the drag exceeds the benefit. What if you're on the back of a 20 foot wave heading down and can get 6 amps (or more) all the way down and half the way up the next wave? You could run your motors at 2 knots and gain 50 miles in a 24 hour period at no cost. I didn't do the math but should be close. Anyway even a little regen is better than no regen. But then again the majority of boats here are smaller and don't travel as far. I think if I had a smaller boat and it was free or included in the package I would think of it as a plus. Now if I had a tri (I do have a MR2 spyder) for nothing but speed the weight would definitely be a consideration. I'm surprised you don't just have a couple of paddles! You could probably still get up to 5 knots :o)

Steve in Solomons


I know that my 30' ketch has only touched 6kts a couple of times in over 10 years. 5kts takes a solid breeze for my old boat. So I don't expect much from regen from my electric drive, even when headed offshore to our local islands.

Alternatively, my 27' trimaran has hit 6kts boat speed in only 5kts true wind. If I converted that boat to electric, that kind of performance would no longer be possible. I'm not willing to sacrifice my good runs at 15kts+ boat speed to go electric. The 9.8hp outboard is auxilliary power that works for me.



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Electric Boats] Hunter 27 has electric option

 

David,

I ran some quick numbers to see if 20 miles at 6kts is reasonable from that battery bank.

214Ah @ 72V = 15.4kWh
80% depth of discharge = 12.3kWh usable

Using a Peukerts exponent of 1.15 for AGM to compensate for high amp draws, I backed into the constant load that would let the batteries last 3.3 hours (6kts x 3.3 hrs = 20nm)

The 3.3 hours rate to 80% depth of discharge is 42A @ 72V or 3024W. So the question becomes whether or not the Hunter 27e can cruise at 6kts while only using 3kW (4hp) of power. Given the observed data from similar boats, that might be optimistic. A Catalina 30 (longer waterline) conversion that is pretty well documented uses 3.2kW (4.2hp) to hit 5kts and 6 kts takes about 6kW (8hp).

So lets slow it down, just a little. The 4 hour rate (5kts x 4 hrs = 20nm) for this battery pack to 80% DoD is 36A @ 72V or 2592W. That looks like were getting closer with 2.6kW (3.4hp) to run at 5kts.

One step down, lets look at 4.5kts. The 4.45 hour rate (4.5kts x 4.45 hrs = 20nm) to 80% DoD is 32.5A @ 72V or 2340W. Now we're looking at 2.3kW (3.1hp) to drive the boat at 4.5kts and that rate sounds a lot like the numbers that various owners have reported in this group.

So I would believe 20nm @ 4.5kts from specific info that you posted from Hunter. That is very good performance from an electric conversion of this size.

If we use the rule of thumb that doubling the power will increase boat speed by 1.5kts, then 6 kts will take 4.7kW (6.2hp) and the batteries will be 80% discharged in 2 hours or 12nm. Again, this sounds a little optimistic to me, but somewhat believable). Hull speed on this boat works out to be between 6 and 6.5kts.

Of course, these are all estimates based on experience collected here and with other electric conversions. Hunter's results may vary, the only effective way to find out is to put one of their 27e's through its paces. Let's hope that someone here buys one and gives a detailed performance and efficiency report.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

I personally haven't found quick reviews in the glossy sail magazines to be the most technically reliable sources. This might be one of those marketing things, saying the boat can hit 6kts and has a range of 20nm doesn't necessarily mean that it can go 20nm at 6kts. :)

--- In electricboats@..., David Goldsmith <suntreader@...> wrote:

I don't have any more info than is available from Hunter or from a brief
article in Sail:



I know I gave that last boat a hard time, so let me make it up by saying
this is a pretty sweet little set up. Elco is a very good name in electric
boats, I'd love to have their systems and expertise designing my set up. The
batteries are six 210amp/hr AGMs (4d?), which is a good compromise on cost
and easy of maintenance. This is just the right sized boat to have a system
like this, small enough that the motor and battery requirements are
reasonable, but big enough it can handle the weight and room. Their claimed
20 miles at 6 knots sounds reasonable and not like an 'ideal conditions at 2
knots' type of situation....


Very cool, thumbs up!

David
[Electric Boats] Re: feasible regen

 

Steve,

For me at least -- and this may be because I don't fully understand the technology -- the issue is that regen isn't just a switch you flip or an option you order with the controller...it's also about selecting a prop that can regen efficiently. Such a prop will incur worse drag whether it is re-gen'ing or not, correct?

My boat has a two-blade prop which hides in the aperture when vertical (or pretends to, at least). I feel like this makes a difference when sailing, though I don't have a knotmeter so I can't back that up with data. If I keep this prop (or one similar), my understanding is that regen performance will be even worse than otherwise.

In other words, you commit to the drag when you affix the prop, and you can't take it off in light air when you can't stand the drag.

Is this understanding correct?

Paul

--- In electricboats@..., Steve Dolan <sdolan@...> wrote:

Eric,
I would suggest that the regen may not be practical on a 2 or 3 hour 5 knot sail but what if you sail for a distance and use power for the stereo or a few gauges? What if the total usage of power during an overnight run equaled your regeneration rate? "Anything that is free is for me" so any power I can get is good thing. It may not be able to fully charge your batteries but it's better than nothing unless the drag exceeds the benefit. What if you're on the back of a 20 foot wave heading down and can get 6 amps (or more) all the way down and half the way up the next wave? You could run your motors at 2 knots and gain 50 miles in a 24 hour period at no cost. I didn't do the math but should be close. Anyway even a little regen is better than no regen. But then again the majority of boats here are smaller and don't travel as far. I think if I had a smaller boat and it was free or included in the package I would think of it as a plus. Now if I had a tri (I do have a MR2 spyder) for nothing but speed the weight would definitely be a consideration. I'm surprised you don't just have a couple of paddles! You could probably still get up to 5 knots :o)

Steve in Solomons


I know that my 30' ketch has only touched 6kts a couple of times in over 10 years. 5kts takes a solid breeze for my old boat. So I don't expect much from regen from my electric drive, even when headed offshore to our local islands.

Alternatively, my 27' trimaran has hit 6kts boat speed in only 5kts true wind. If I converted that boat to electric, that kind of performance would no longer be possible. I'm not willing to sacrifice my good runs at 15kts+ boat speed to go electric. The 9.8hp outboard is auxilliary power that works for me.
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: feasible regen

 

Eric,
I would suggest that the regen may not be practical on a 2 or 3 hour 5 knot sail but what if you sail for a distance and use power for the stereo or a few gauges? What if the total usage of power during an overnight run equaled your regeneration rate? "Anything that is free is for me" so any power I can get is good thing. It may not be able to fully charge your batteries but it's better than nothing unless the drag exceeds the benefit. What if you're on the back of a 20 foot wave heading down and can get 6 amps (or more) all the way down and half the way up the next wave? You could run your motors at 2 knots and gain 50 miles in a 24 hour period at no cost. I didn't do the math but should be close. Anyway even a little regen is better than no regen. But then again the majority of boats here are smaller and don't travel as far. I think if I had a smaller boat and it was free or included in the package I would think of it as a plus. Now if I had a tri (I do have a MR2 spyder) for nothing but speed the weight would definitely be a consideration. I'm surprised you don't just have a couple of paddles! You could probably still get up to 5 knots :o)

Steve in Solomons


I know that my 30' ketch has only touched 6kts a couple of times in over 10 years. 5kts takes a solid breeze for my old boat. So I don't expect much from regen from my electric drive, even when headed offshore to our local islands.

Alternatively, my 27' trimaran has hit 6kts boat speed in only 5kts true wind. If I converted that boat to electric, that kind of performance would no longer be possible. I'm not willing to sacrifice my good runs at 15kts+ boat speed to go electric. The 9.8hp outboard is auxilliary power that works for me.
[Electric Boats] Re: New guy Questions

 

Eric --

I read your comments as realistic, not negative. I always appreciate your contributions here because they are objective and well-grounded. I also like how you run the numbers to ground.

That said, I think the cost comparison is difficult. From what I can tell, you can put a diesel in for what the electric conversion will cost, but the diesel would have to be used. A new diesel would cost about double what the electric conversion would cost.

Maybe the used diesel will outlast the new electric installation, I don't know; but it does seem like apples and oranges, don't you think?

Paul

--- In electricboats@..., "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:

Robbie,

You make a good point. I'll have to remind the guy badmouthing electric conversions on the Cheoy Lee board that spent 6 months and more than $6000 converting his sailboat that doesn't perform the way that the electric drive vendor led him to believe. He's now trying to sell his boat for what he paid before the conversion, and he's not getting any takers.

There have been a number of people that have come here asking about converting ski boats and 50'+ houseboats to pure electric. I believe that it is our responsibility to give them enough real information (not marketing hype) so that they can make their own choices. But perhaps I shouldn't be so negative, at least we'll have more slightly used components available at lower costs for our own projects after their projects fail....

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@..., hob tonn <marlborosounds@> wrote:

G'day People.
I hope that this will not turn up in everyones spam box.
I believe that if people wish to change to electric power then they should do
just that, without people trying to talk them out of it or showing the negative side of things....

So all the Killjoy's out there, Let the people be who they are and maybe one of
them will invent something that you will purchase in a few years for your
boating fun.

Cheers
Robbie
S/V Qwave
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: High end electric/diesel yacht

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

?

David,

?

Ideological issues aside, nuclear is an excellent option these days for power generation. I don't know about your local plant which is without a doubt not the latest and greatest but still, if you're charging from that source you can be pretty sure there aren't any particulate or carbon equivalent emission problems.

Gee wiz, I¡¯m greener than I thought! :o)

?


Steve, I think I speak for the whole group when I say we're happy to have you here and you may very well be the most knowledge person available anywhere on these systems (probably more so than the engineers since they haven't had the same field experience), that 410 is certainly a very big boat and an electric drive is an ambitious undertaking.

Hey thanks, I might be up there on the 410¡¯s but I learn something every time I¡¯m on Electra Glide. I¡¯ve actually stayed in close contact with one of the Field Techs for Solomons (now Electric Marine Propulsion ? ). We do exchange info and ideas.

??


?The manual trans is a good analogy, and it always seemed to me that the choice of charter service was a bold move, I mean, they must have know how those systems were going to be beat to hell! They probably got more use in a season than they would have in ten years in private hands. Still, I reiterate my concern from before, that kind of exposure and that kind of testing was bound to turn people off of these systems, maybe enthusiastic private owners would have been a better option for the long-term sales of these systems. That's all speculation of course, they may have tried private owners who wouldn't bite, they may have made a deal of some sort with the charter companies.

I¡¯m again guessing but I would bet that the owners were looking at the ¡°Charter to Own¡± deals and were driven by the sales pitch of ¡°less maintenance costs¡± when they purchased. I don¡¯t know if many know about the charter industry down there but 5 to 6 years is the longest most of those companies want a boat in service do to ¡°ware and tare¡±. After that period they want newer boats. At $20k a week you can¡¯t blame the renter. I don¡¯t know if any boats were directly bought by the leasing companies. ???

?

?

By the way Lagoon has a 470 their electrifying through Tether¡¯s company Emotions and Dave has done 2 500¡¯s. I first met Dave in Solomons Md on board Electra Glide last year along with Nigel Calder. They wanted to see what improvements had been made over the original design as well as see what issues I had. I mostly had concerns about the lack of monitoring of the batteries as well as the genset that he didn¡¯t really have anything to do with and has since been fixed with 2 $5 parts and been running like a top (knock on wood). The other projects they are working on is a 60¡¯ TAG boat (see on their site) ¡°Tang¡± and through a grant some HYMAR projects which includes an EMM (energy management system) which they seem to be still having some problems with. KISS!

?

I just love the Lagoon cats, the French charter type cats are given a hard time by the speed freaks, but that's not my MO so I think they're great. My question though is that mainsail, its way up there! Have you found any trouble setting, dousing, sheeting, or generally getting way up on the cabin to mess with the boom or sail? The other question I see raised a lot is the helm placement, any trouble with visibility?

?

I think your talking about the larger cats with fly bridges? Those things are monsters and are a pain to see from. The main sails are very high off the deck and I¡¯m sure having been properly designed to take the raised pitching point they command but they look top heavy. Now the 410 is more conventional and though they have a rag top they are manageable from above all though a hard top down the road is in the plans for us. Housing the main I have an Electric winch but haven¡¯t used it except for the top 2 feet. I need some exercise! Dowsing is easy, release the halyard and it falls into the stack pack. Setting is all from the rear helm and starboard winches¡¯ and the Admiral (all 100lbs) has no issues with it. Overall other than docking this boat (it gets easier every time) it¡¯s stress free.

?

That's interesting. Nigel Calder's books are invaluable for any boat owner. His latest projects I've read about have been real space-ship type electric systems for the entire boat, they seem a little over the top to me, but I'm glad someone is into this stuff in boats, I bet the results when they're all done are going to be amazing.
I mentioned the EMS systems and I think that¡¯s what your referring to on Calder¡¯s boat along with the Power Distribution Systems he¡¯s got on board. ?

?

Agreed, the retrofit systems most of us are installing are adequate for the sorts of 25-35 foot boats they're going into but once you get much larger the batteries just get out of hand and the availability of motors, controllers, gear boxes, and the like all become more difficult. Something as large as those big cats really do need a complicated system if electricity is involved and pretty much require a gen-set. I can't help but thinking the problem is expectations, with an electric set up the user knows there will be compromises with speed and range, so he accepts them. If one were willing to make the very same compromises and install a pair of diesels of more like 20hp than the 50hp that is the usual and accept the very same compromise I wonder if they could get away with a much simpler system and better fuel economy if it was used in the same way as an electric would have been.

?

I¡¯m no expert or heavy into electrics but I don¡¯t feel like the system is all that complicated. Now there is no way I¡¯m going to rebuild a controller or fix an electric motor but really what else is there? Most failures are wiring related. I do have a Main Distribution Box but inside that is mostly a couple of buss bars, breakers, and some big wires. (I tend to over simplify) but if you stare at it long enough it falls into place. It took me the longest time to comprehend the fact that the batteries, generator, motors and Inverter could all run to the same buss bars without burning up or how the distribution of power would work between the batteries and genset. As with anything complicated you just break it down into smaller pieces. ??


Given your experience, could you describe your electric system, hybrid or otherwise for a cat like your 410 or something similar? I know a few decades ago there was a lot of talk about hydraulic drive for cats, using a single engine to drive a pair of hydraulic motors to move the boat would, the efficiencies of hydraulics are pretty good these days, comparable to a hybrid electric system? I know hydraulics are pretty 'industrial' and I'm sure that's a turn off for a lot of people. The only think I'd like less than a diesel spill in the boat is hydraulic fluid.

I wouldn¡¯t want to depend on my sailing skills to bring my boat into a dock on sails alone under ¡°ruff¡± conditions. Something is going to get broken. Running a single engine for propulsion leaves you with no means to ¡°get out of trouble¡± accept the sails (well the anchor to). On a Big boat you want to have options. I agree on the ¡°spills¡±. Part of the systems on a Blue Water boat have to be redundant. If something fails you want to have a plan ¡°B¡± or even a plan ¡°C¡±. Having 2 hulls makes a dual system the way to go. God what a dream it is to be able to spin on a dime.

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I attached a couple of pictures to see the diagram of the power flow as well as a side view of the boat. I would be happy to answer any other questions.

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Have a great Thanksgiving everyone,

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Steve in Solomons MD


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Steve in Solomons MD



[Electric Boats] Re: New guy Questions

 

Robbie,

You make a good point. I'll have to remind the guy badmouthing electric conversions on the Cheoy Lee board that spent 6 months and more than $6000 converting his sailboat that doesn't perform the way that the electric drive vendor led him to believe. He's now trying to sell his boat for what he paid before the conversion, and he's not getting any takers.

There have been a number of people that have come here asking about converting ski boats and 50'+ houseboats to pure electric. I believe that it is our responsibility to give them enough real information (not marketing hype) so that they can make their own choices. But perhaps I shouldn't be so negative, at least we'll have more slightly used components available at lower costs for our own projects after their projects fail....

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@..., hob tonn <marlborosounds@...> wrote:

G'day People.
I hope that this will not turn up in everyones spam box.
I believe that if people wish to change to electric power then they should do
just that, without people trying to talk them out of it or showing the negative side of things....

So all the Killjoy's out there, Let the people be who they are and maybe one of
them will invent something that you will purchase in a few years for your
boating fun.

Cheers
Robbie
S/V Qwave
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