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Will Direwolf on Windows work with an audio adapter model DRA-65 or DRA-70 from ? These adapters have a , but it requires sound output on both left and right stereo channels. One channel goes to the radio, and the other channel triggers PTT when it detects output sound. Perhaps the question boils down to whether Direwolf can be configured to output the same audio on both stereo channels.
These adapters can also trigger PTT from the GPIO3 output of the CMedia CM119A. But Direwolf on Windows can't use this method, says the User Guide.
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I believe applications which use the second audio channel for PTT do not send the same audio to both channels of the sound card. As I recall from the FLDigi information, the second channel starts before the data channel (PTT delay).? Keying the rig and starting the data signal at the same time is typically not a good idea.? I am sure it holds the PTT a short time after audio completion as well.? This PTT signal is commonly only a single tone (:)
I cannot answer whether Direwolf operates in this manner or not, but the question may not be whether Direwolf can send the same audio to both channels.
On Thursday, March 11, 2021, 7:39:07 PM EST, John Kristian <jmkristian@...> wrote:
Will Direwolf on Windows work with an audio adapter model DRA-65 or DRA-70 from ? These adapters have a , but it requires sound output on both left and right stereo channels. One channel goes to the radio, and the other channel triggers PTT when it detects output sound. Perhaps the question boils down to whether Direwolf can be configured to output the same audio on both stereo channels.
These adapters can also trigger PTT from the GPIO3 output of the CMedia CM119A. But Direwolf on Windows can't use this method, says the User Guide.
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When an application opens a stereo audio output device in mono mode, the same thing comes out of both audio channels.
AX.25 already deals with the delay between asserting PTT and the radio link stabilizing.?? It is the TXDELAY parameter.? This is the amount of time that an idle pattern is sent by the modem before sending the data.?
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The request was to use the secondary audio with a VOX circuit as the PTT control.??AX.25 may deal with PTT delay in a normal circumstance, but my?point was that since you state the audio is sent on both channels at the exact same time, there cannot be a PTT delay.? If anything, the VOX will delay the PTT in the wrong direction.
In order for the secondary audio VOX circuit to work in the same manner as you describe the AX.25, the secondary audio would have to start TXDELAY milliseconds before the primary audio used for sending the packet.
On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 19:31, WB2OSZ <wb2osz@...> wrote: When an application opens a stereo audio output device in mono mode, the same thing comes out of both audio channels.
AX.25 already deals with the delay between asserting PTT and the radio link stabilizing.?? It is the TXDELAY parameter.? This is the amount of time that an idle pattern is sent by the modem before sending the data.?
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or you use PTT from Direwolf to turn on an audio circuit (such as a 555 oscillator) to create a false audio into the vox circuit.
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On the other hand, you would be building more stuff to make this work than getting something that works properly.? (my thoughts)
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Arnold, KQ6DI
On 03/12/2021 6:17 PM Rob Giuliano via groups.io <kb8rco@...> wrote:
?
?
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The request was to use the secondary audio with a VOX circuit as the PTT control.??
AX.25 may deal with PTT delay in a normal circumstance, but my?point was that since you state the audio is sent on both channels at the exact same time, there cannot be a PTT delay.? If anything, the VOX will delay the PTT in the wrong direction.
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In order for the secondary audio VOX circuit to work in the same manner as you describe the AX.25, the secondary audio would have to start TXDELAY milliseconds before the primary audio used for sending the packet.
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On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 19:31, WB2OSZ
<wb2osz@...> wrote:
When an application opens a stereo audio output device in mono mode, the same thing comes out of both audio channels.
AX.25 already deals with the delay between asserting PTT and the radio link stabilizing.?? It is the TXDELAY parameter.? This is the amount of time that an idle pattern is sent by the modem before sending the data.?
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I am just trying to directly answer the questions in the original post:
============================================================================
John Kristian
Will Direwolf on Windows work with an audio adapter model DRA-65 or DRA-70 from ? These adapters have a ,
but it requires sound output on both left and right stereo channels.
One channel goes to the radio, and the other channel triggers PTT when
it detects output sound. Perhaps the question boils down to whether
Direwolf can be configured to output the same audio on both stereo
channels.
These adapters can also trigger PTT from the GPIO3
output of the CMedia CM119A. But Direwolf on Windows can't use this
method, says the User Guide.
============================================================================
So again, the request from the post was 2 fold: 1.? Will Direwolf on Windows work with an audio adapter model DRA-65 or DRA-70 from ?
A:? From WB2OSZ: When an application opens a stereo audio output device in mono mode, the same thing comes out of both audio channels.
My response:
I believe applications which use the second audio channel for PTT do not send the same audio to both channels of the sound card. As
I recall from the FLDigi information, the second channel starts before
the data channel (PTT delay).? Keying the rig and starting the data
signal at the same time is typically not a good idea.? I am sure it
holds the PTT a short time after audio completion as well.? This PTT
signal is commonly only a single tone (:)
I
cannot answer whether Direwolf operates in this manner or not, but the
question may not be whether Direwolf can send the same audio to both
channels.
But, if as indicated above, Direwolf DOES send the same audio on both channels at the same time, this is not an optimum configuration for PTT.? The PTT needs to go active BEFORE the audio.? I was pointing out that "I" felt he (John Kristian) would be disappointed if he tried to use his Masters Communications VOX circuit with Direwolf on the second of the stereo audio channels.
There are other discussions on using the CMedia GPIO on WIndows computers.
Robert Giuliano KB8RCO
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Just to clarify, if direwolf.conf selects a stereo output device (using ADEVICE, ADEVICE0, ADEVICE1 or ADEVICE2) followed by ACHANNELS 1, Direwolf on Windows will output the same audio to both left and right channels of that device. The same is true if there is no subsequent ACHANNELS command; in other words, the default value of ACHANNELS is 1.
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On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 04:31 PM, WB2OSZ wrote:
When an application opens a stereo audio output device in mono mode, the same thing comes out of both audio channels.
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And by the way, the DRA series that have VOX are jumper selectable to choose which channel the VOX circuit gets audio from. The advantage to using separate channels is that you can adjust the VOX separate from the TX audio. If only one channel is used, it could be difficult to find a level high enough to trip the VOX, but not too high for the transmitter.
VOX does add additional delay that has to be compensated for by increasing the TXD setting.
-Scott, NS7C
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But, if as indicated above, Direwolf?DOES?send the same audio on both channels at the same time, this is not an optimum configuration for PTT.? The PTT needs to go active BEFORE the audio.? I was pointing out that "I" felt he (John?Kristian)?would be disappointed if he tried to use his Masters Communications VOX circuit with Direwolf on the second of the stereo audio channels.
This is exactly what the TXD setting is for. Transmitters do not come up to full power immediately, receivers do not detect a signal immediately. There is always delay from PTT activation to when the actual data is sent, and it varies from radio to radio. TXD or Transmit Delay compensates for this.
-Scott, NS7C
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How the app uses TXD with PTT has no impact on? this discussion - the discussion is about VOX which doesn't use the PTT control line directly through the app.
So let me ask two DIRECT questions that will definitely answer the specifics about using VOX in tne manner:
1. Does the TXD variable have any impact on the audio?
2. Specifically, does Direwolf or any other sound card app start the audio on either or both channels TXD milliseconds before the data tones to account for possible VOX control?
Those are the specific questions related to the discussion.??
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On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 12:40, Scott Currie <scott.d.currie@...> wrote: But, if as indicated above, Direwolf?DOES?send the same audio on both channels at the same time, this is not an optimum configuration for PTT.? The PTT needs to go active BEFORE the audio.? I was pointing out that "I" felt he (John?Kristian)? would be disappointed if he tried to use his Masters Communications VOX circuit with Direwolf on the second of the stereo audio channels.
This is exactly what the TXD setting is for. Transmitters do not come up to full power immediately, receivers do not detect a signal immediately. There is always delay from PTT activation to when the actual data is sent, and it varies from radio to radio. TXD or Transmit Delay compensates for this.
-Scott, NS7C
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Direwolf CAN drive?PTT from the GPIO3 output of the CMedia CM119A, however indirectly:
CAT7200 is a program that uses the RTS (or DTR) signal from a virtual COM port to drive GPIO3.
ComOCom is a utility that creates a virtual com port pair.??
Direwolf is configured to drive RTS on on one virtual com port, and RTS of the paired virtual com port signals CAT7200 to drive GPIO3.
I use this method for with both a DRA30 and a modified $3 USB sound dongle with Windows 10.??
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As an alternative under Windows, use the CAT7200 utility and ComOcom to have Direwolf use RTS to drive the C-media GPIO PTT.
See _CM108_PTT_control.pdf in the FILES section.
FYI. Links to:
Inexpensive digital modes interface kits using the C-media IC.
How to build your own with PTT from a $3 USB sound dongle.
How to add C-media PTT control to Windows digital modes software with only serial port RTS PTT control.
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The subject and requested information for this thread was Masters Communications VOX.
So you agree that using VOX in the DRA-65 or DRA-70 isn't worth talking about and the only thing to talk about on this VOX thread is to suggest nonVOX alternatives.
So John Kristian, to directly answer the questions you pose: 1. Unless WB2OSZ comes back stating that the audio starts TXD milliseconds before transmitting
??? the packet tones, I do not think VOX is a viable option on either sound card channel. ?? It may work, but there is a reason the PTT is asserted TXD milliseconds before the packet tones are sent.
2. Only WB2OSZ can answer about Direwolf and CMedia GPIO control under Windows.
Robert Giuliano KB8RCO
On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 19:37, N0YWB
As an alternative under Windows, use the CAT7200 utility and ComOcom to have Direwolf use RTS to drive the C-media GPIO PTT.
See _CM108_PTT_control.pdf in the FILES section.
FYI. Links to:
Inexpensive digital modes interface kits using the C-media IC.
How to build your own with PTT from a $3 USB sound dongle.
How to add C-media PTT control to Windows digital modes software with only serial port RTS PTT control.
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Robert, Your understanding of TXD is backwards. TXD starts when PTT is set. During the TXD time flag characters are sent which gets the receive modem in sync. When TXD ends the data frame is sent. We do not start PTT before packet tones are sent, that's not how it works. This is what the timing looks like:  When we start a frame, PTT is set and TXD starts, and flag characters are sent. With VOX, the flag characters will trip the VOX and activate PTT. When TXD ends the data frame is sent. So, if the data frame is being cut off in VOX mode, you just need to increase TXD. CAT7200 will work as well to activate PTT on C-Media based sound card interfaces that use GPIO 3 for PTT, I requested that addition from John, G8BPQ. However, it would be better if Direwolf had this functionality added in the Windows version. Other applications have added C-Media GPIO support under Windows (Soundmodem, Vara). -Scott, NS7C
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My understanding is NOT backward at all. Remember the original post is about VOX, not HARDWARE PTT control.? With VOX, the actual radio PTT line CANNOT be asserted until there is audio for the VOX to act on.? The computer application has no way of knowing when the radio's PTT is actually activated, only when it is requesting it to be activated.
So, what you are stating differs from my understanding ONLY in that you state that during TXDELAY there are actually tones being sent (to sync modems).? That would mean that the VOX control would assert the PTT as soon as these audio tones start and allow the TX of actual packet tones to start later and be decoded properly.?
In the past, I have had issues with using VOX on packet, and it must have been due to my TXDELAY being too short for the PTT and sync to be completed properly in the TXDELAY time.
So for John Kristian's post, the reply is that the VOX should work fine, but you may have to increase TXDELAY to allow the VOX circuit to activate with the sync tones and enough time to sync.
Thank you for clarifying!
On Monday, March 15, 2021, 10:05:36 AM EDT, Scott Currie <scott.d.currie@...> wrote:
Robert, Your understanding of TXD is backwards. TXD starts when PTT is set. During the TXD time flag characters are sent which gets the receive modem in sync. When TXD ends the data frame is sent. We do not start PTT before packet tones are sent, that's not how it works. This is what the timing looks like:  When we start a frame, PTT is set and TXD starts, and flag characters are sent. With VOX, the flag characters will trip the VOX and activate PTT. When TXD ends the data frame is sent. So, if the data frame is being cut off in VOX mode, you just need to increase TXD. CAT7200 will work as well to activate PTT on C-Media based sound card interfaces that use GPIO 3 for PTT, I requested that addition from John, G8BPQ. However, it would be better if Direwolf had this functionality added in the Windows version. Other applications have added C-Media GPIO support under Windows (Soundmodem, Vara). -Scott, NS7C
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And when I assemble DRA-65 and 70's, one of the tests I do is jumper for VOX mode, set up for packet operation, and connect to the local RMS gateway. My default TXD is 250ms and they work fine with that.
-Scott, NS7C
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And really beating a dead horse now, attached are some audio samples of on-air packets. The first several are with TXD set to 250ms, the last several are set to a ridiculous 900ms. You can easily hear the flags followed by the actual data. These were using a DRA-70 in VOX mode.
-Scott, NS7C
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John WB2OSZ has released Direwolf 1.7 Snapshot A which includes a
Windows binary that includes native CM108/119 PTT support on
Windows.? Give that a try with your Master Communications device:
??
--David
KI6ZHD
On 03/14/2021 03:05 PM, N0YWB wrote:
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Direwolf CAN drive?PTT
from the GPIO3 output of the CMedia CM119A, however indirectly:
CAT7200 is a program that uses the RTS (or DTR) signal from
a virtual COM port to drive GPIO3.
ComOCom is a utility that creates a virtual com port pair.??
Direwolf is configured to drive RTS on on one virtual com port,
and RTS of the paired virtual com port signals CAT7200 to drive
GPIO3.
I use this method for with both a DRA30 and a modified $3 USB
sound dongle with Windows 10.??
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And v1.7 does work fine with the various DRA models, I have been testing it the past few days. It should also work fine with any of the other C-Media based devices that use the audio chip GPIO pins for PTT.
-Scott, NS7C
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Direwolf 1.7 Snapshot A works well on Windows with my DRA-65 audio adapter and "PTT CM108" in direwolf.conf. VOX is disabled (by jumper) in the DRA-65.
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John Kristian
Scott Currie
N0YWB