Thanks John a really good source of info, I just realised my typo on the header with double ll . I have used thread carbide inserts for cutting threads and they seem good for direct plunge cutting. I am contemplating doing a left hand thread for a new cross slide lead screw on stainless steel 1.0mm pitch but I think I need dedicated a EL insert although experimenting with standard ER ones seem to cut ok but I think I will get the EL inserts anyway. Anyway to use an old expression the ELS is the best thing since sliced bread.?