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Hello
I used to run a dial-in BBS years ago prior to the widespread Internet we now have. When a 1200 baud modem was a huge leap. Local access, light use, simple, effective for a small group. Could have been used widely but mine just wasnt. It was on a Mac back in System 7 days, but I had it configured and running in about an hour and it was functional from then on. Extremely useful for some projects a few guys worked on. Required zero effort after initial simple setup.
Why cant we do that now?
It baffles me that nobody seeks to see how simple something can be done. It seems the goal is to make it as complex as possible. Not always the right goal, too complex, complexity leads to breakage.
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When we had the operating system AND your application(s) running on one floppy disc people were doing very amazing things with very little overhead.?
I am not a programmer. I am an electronics troubleshooter working on industrial machines. I have a life and dont want to be consumed by screwing around with computers on my off time because I really dont have any off-time.?
I dont want to invent the wheel, I want to roll it. But I just want a basic wheel, not a wheel with the space shuttle attached.
I want to setup something similar to my old BBS for my small community. I have a cheap, new, Dell 64 bit laptop.
Im not interested in entertaining kids. Im not interested in getting it on the 'net. Im trying to provide a way for fairly small group of adults to get info in a work-related type of scenario. Imagine a neighborhood watch/rural area group that includes firefighters, people checking on old folks, etc
I spent an hour puzzling over bpq32.
- No closer to having even a slightly remote idea of how to make this work than I was prior to starting. I'll say I'm a Mac guy and if you're a Mac guy and have read through the setup stuff on any of the BBS applications it is mystifying. Not criticizing, just saying there's nothing obvious about how to make a windows box do stuff.?
Tried mystic. Wouldnt load.
Tried synchonous (or similar name). Wouldnt load.
I dont see this jacking around with overly complex software as an effective use of time, no matter how great the end result may be.
Can the following be done?
(Think of a cork bulletin board in a hallway at water cooler, back when we used pencils and 3x5 index cards to plan projects, where various people cross the path but dont actually see each other. This was the original idea of a BBS. But now implementation too complex, unwieldy.)
Intended for very local use.
Connect over radio using simple software. No use of internet or cell network. Could be vhf or hf. Could be GMRS (setting aside regulations for sake of this discussion).
Goals:
Regular non-tech people able to view simple, short posting of news about a given topic, say a power outage or lack of cell service, or a job several different guys are working on. Short and fast because its just data, no overhead of color and video and windows and zephyrs blowing in the corners and stuff.?
Able to respond with update about your status. Could be written text, could be a series of questions. Could be as simple as "all ok here".
Anyone logging in can view entire posting.
Extremely simple -- no games or entertainment.
All users are trusted and wont try to "hack the system."
Essentially just a running text message window, with ability to have different postings as topics, or simply a page per day or similar.
An absolutely minimalist setup, easy to install and make work.
Dont care about color or any other whizbang features. If you ever saw an old fido-net bbs very similar idea. Like DOS in appearance. Not "elegant." Pure function. A log cabin with a candle, no draperies or tablecloth. Dark ages.
Can this be actually done so that a person who is not a programmer can install and run on an extra cheap computer or tablet? Computer should be a modern model, not requiring a man to find an old xp or similar. Just buy a cheap laptop and install software, attach to radio, and leave it running.
Is bpq32 capable of this? Id think so but dont really know. Not willing to spend what appears to be hours figuring it out.
Alternatively, is anybody willing to do a setup like I describe for others?
Any ideas?
Is it possible for the current brainpower to replicate what was done in 1989?
Thanks to anyone who gets what Im saying.
DC
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As additional thoughts to my previous--
Imagine the scenario of Western NC in Hurricane Helene.
Imagine a lot of people having a gizmo like a Blackberry (or like a Lilygo T-deck on meshtastic) but was a GMRS or VHF capable radio, capable of voice, with keyboard and small screen for short messages, capable of running low power and lasting a long time on battery as well as being charged by a small solar cell.
Would it be helpful? You bet.
Maybe it could hit starlink also, tho I'd prefer open access to airwaves like regular ol' radio.
All the pieces are there.
Take a baofeng uv-5r, ?add the guts of a digirig to a
Processor and a tiny keyboard and screen, and youre there.
It can be done now with various cobbling but we need something you can hand a 90 yr old woman so she can listen to/read the local emergency info and call for help if she needs it.
See what I mean?
This seems so obvious as to almost be comical. Everybody is tinkering around the edges of it with meshtastic and packet amd all that. It just needs to be considered with actual usability by normal people in mind.
A very capable device to perform a very simple task of keeping comms going no matter what. No national news or stocks or sports or facebook -- just the neighbors keeping in touch. One step above kids playing with blister-pack walkie-talkies.
DC
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Baofeng is not as easy or as powerful as a $50 surplus taxicab radio. ?Working as a community you may be able to find a local who can get a couple of dozen for the project. ?With patience, your surplus radio guy may find them for much cheaper. ?
The Raspberry PI is $35 and makes a nicely reproducible packet radio setup. ? ?G8BPQ PILINBPQ runs on it.?
?There are definitely things to learn while turning this concept into a community project that everybody in the community can build. ?Talk this up locally, and feel free to glom onto global help. ? Local participant-hours are the best, of course.? ? ??
Tadd / KA2DEW ? tadd@...
Raleigh NC ?FM05pv
North Carolina ham-radio chatRoom Network:? Packet networking over ham?radio:? Local Raleigh ham radio info:?
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On Dec 18, 2024, at 11:41?AM, David Clark via groups.io <cw.w4trj@...> wrote:
As additional thoughts to my previous--
Imagine the scenario of Western NC in Hurricane Helene.
Imagine a lot of people having a gizmo like a Blackberry (or like a Lilygo T-deck on meshtastic) but was a GMRS or VHF capable radio, capable of voice, with keyboard and small screen for short messages, capable of running low power and lasting a long time on battery as well as being charged by a small solar cell.
Would it be helpful? You bet.
Maybe it could hit starlink also, tho I'd prefer open access to airwaves like regular ol' radio.
All the pieces are there.
Take a baofeng uv-5r, ?add the guts of a digirig to a
Processor and a tiny keyboard and screen, and youre there.
It can be done now with various cobbling but we need something you can hand a 90 yr old woman so she can listen to/read the local emergency info and call for help if she needs it.
See what I mean?
This seems so obvious as to almost be comical. Everybody is tinkering around the edges of it with meshtastic and packet amd all that. It just needs to be considered with actual usability by normal people in mind.
A very capable device to perform a very simple task of keeping comms going no matter what. No national news or stocks or sports or facebook -- just the neighbors keeping in touch. One step above kids playing with blister-pack walkie-talkies.
DC
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If you're talking about a single BBS, accessible via radio by everyone else, then UZ7HO's "EasyTerm" software might do the job.? I don't think it gets any simpler than that.? It's not a full-service BBS/Node with node-switching, etc., but it includes a PBBS where anyone can leave personal messages and bulletins.?? EasyTerm's requirements are any computer running Windows (or Linux using WINE).?? And of course a radio, antenna, and soundcard interface.? Screenshot below. ? Easyterm on the left, and its PBBS on the right.
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Oops, you would also need UZ7HO's "Soundmodem" soundcard TNC.?? The Easyterm terminal connects to that just like dial-up software terminals connect to hardware modems, but no physical connection, it's just a port on 127.0.0.1.? All the software is free and very simple.
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WinTNC is a nice PBBS too, like Easyterm. I agree with Jeff.
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Well I know this is a BPQ group, but I know of nothing as simple as a KPC3+ tnc with its built in ?PBBS, you just need a radio to have a simple bbs system. ?The biggest limitation is the half Megabyte message storage space, but it’s manageable. ?Now for a community bbs, where there are non- hams using it, you would need to assign them a Ham like ID to use to access it using a non-ham frequency. This would be an RF only solution so each member would need to have a similar setup.
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jim KI0BK?
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Wow.? Red Ryder BBS by Scott Watson.? I still remember the 'please do not click on my head' message in the 'about' dialog.? ?There's a blast from the past.? I used to run one, as well.? It was indeed straightforward.
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I think I understand what you are driving for.? Given FCC regs about data transmission on the various radio services, you're probably talking amateur VHF / UHF.? So that might be a limiter compared to what you describe as broad, general accessibility.? ?That having been said, the thing I like about BPQ is one can make it as simple or as complex as you want.? BPQ has provisions to allow users to self-register at first contact, and you can simply have all users in a single distribution 'all' group so that they see bulletins on connect.? In the radio world, the end user client is going to be a factor as well.? ?Simple terminal interfaces like VARATerm or EasyTerm as mentioned by others will grant that command-line style access you need vs something like RMSExpress.? ?2m radio and antenna,? small footprint computer like an HP elite mini refurb off Amazon running Windows, sound card interface like DigiRig, VARAFM or UZ7HO software, plus BPQ and you're in business.? ?If you are comfortable navigating Linux, then the linbpq on a pi is a great option, as well.
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73 de Ray KG7AV
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I loaded Easyterm and within moments had what appears to be a bbs screen.
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I loaded bpq based on some recommendations from others but as my original (probably too long) message said -- after an hour of reading setup guide and getting no logic from it, I closed it without having increased my knowledge at all. As said I'm a Mac guy and have 30 years experience with installing software and having a working application with no fuss except for minor config stuff. I cannot tell that my install of bpq accomplished anything other than wasting an hour and a half. I'm not criticizing -- I realize I'm the idiot here.
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I have heard all the "but Macs ain't really that good" arguments for 30 yrs. My windows experience is very limited and after having wrestled with bpq I can remember why that is so. Not criticizing, I'm sure it's great, but I have zero interest in being a windows guru. I want to use the tool, not mess with the tool.?
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I appreciate the guidance from you guys so far. I'm afraid this is not a "community build" project. This is not a "learn linux and give everybody a raspberry pi" project.
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This needs to be "I set it up, connect to radio, show a few people how to login at their place and move on" project. I'm not dealing with computer geeks here. I'm dealing with housewives, little old ladies, etc
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No doubt bpq will do what I need and all I would hope for, but if I cant get the damn thing to function at all without what appears to be hours of effort then that is not a path I am willing to take.?
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Which created my question of whether or not we could do 1989 level BBS in 2024. I should have said with 1989 effort also, which was very little.
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The focus is on simple.
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I looked at kantronics item recommended. Probably would work but maybe too simple given the reservations stated by KI0BK above.
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1.? For those recommending Easyterm -- will it actually be a working BBS that people can log in to and use for simple messaging and bulletins? It appears so but would like actual experience saying so.?
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Also need to know what the user needs to be running. Not clear on that. Easyterm I guess?
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2.? For those recommending bpq -- is there a sensible idiot's guide to installing and making it work? One that doesn't assume you already know how to do? it? If so, I'd like to know a link to it, please. I'm willing to try again maybe but I want to read it first. I mean idiot level, like:
? ?Step 1 - do X
? ?Step 2 - do Y
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Or is there some installer app that just sets the thing up and all one has to do is fill in config data? I saw no evidence of that, just a folder full of apps. To be fair, at least it loaded. Several others I tried would not load on my machine.
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Also. I live in the rural South. We don't have taxicabs here. I know we're backwards, but we drive our own vehicles.
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I greatly appreciate all the responses. Please see those numbered questions above and share insights.?
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Thank you for y'all's trouble. Also thanks for letting me poach onto the bpq's audience - was hoping somebody could point me to how to make bpq actually work so if that's possible I'm all ears for that also.
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DC
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Easyterm's BBS will do what you want, as far as a single BBS server.?? Everyone connecting to your BBS would be using Easyterm and Soundmodem on their end along with their own radio, antenna, etc. . so now it's getting less simple.? Then everyone connecting to the BBS would need their own amateur radio callsign, which sounds to me like it's game over since it would no longer be simple.
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There may be a way of legally sending AFSK data without a license or callsign though, using Part 15 devices, but you'd have to research that.? I think packet would not be legal with FRS/GMRS, and it's definitely not legal with CB or MURS.? You can't even do store-and-forward voice with MURS.? (I say "AFSK", because that's the sort of 'default' and by far the most common data mode used with packet radio.? )
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I think I remember seeing some hacks done to pagers, maybe that's an option?
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Maybe Meshtastic is the simplest method of legally texting over radio without a license.
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Jeff
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Thanks so much for a clear answer. I'm sorry i'm such a dunce on this. I've been a CW man all my ham career and this stuff is not as well documented as I'd like even tho it's been around for a long time.
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Thanks for answering what the "client" needs also. Somebody upstream mentioned a HP refurb tho I think most will have a computer
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The question of data over gmrs is a question -- it seems that FCC has said "a little is ok" type of thing.? We are in a rural area and I doubt there's been any signal ever before in history over GMRS in our area aside from me and my wife. So I'm gonna risk seeing if it will work.
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the callsign thing -- as you may know you cannot download winlink without an active callsign and from what I know the winlink system actually verifies when you want to download.?
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I have tried fldigi using a callsign on one end and a first initial and last name on the other, and that works. Dont know if it will work with easyterm but intend to find out.
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Maybe I shouldn't talk about it.
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Anyway, I intend to try to find something that will work so my neighbors won't be stuck with nothing like a couple of friends in NC were the first week of Helene. It almost literally drove one friend crazy, an older recent widow, who stilll hasn't really recovered from not knowing anything but what she could see for a week (and what she saw was pretty bad).? I just saw her last week and she is still quite shook up from the experience and it's been 2 months. She says you just cannot imagine how bad it is to see damage and injury and reach for your phone and have nothing over and over and over.
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I'm all for following regs, I pay my taxes, etc and operate within the guidelines in my life. But there is such a thing as "the radio community" and if we know (and most of us do know) that radio gets through when all else fails, then we have a great opportunity to view making some of this stuff work easily and maybe-not-regulation just in case we need to use it. I guess we just can't talk about it, but we still need to do it, because anyone paying attention to western NC and Helene has seen that hams contributed mightily up there to search and rescue (still are I believe).
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I know Mt Mitchell repeater did amazing work. I was involved for a short period one afternoon on an impromptu Health and Welfare net looking for people, us taking requests on HF, relaying via 2m to Mt. Mitchell, them relaying to hams with handhelds in the disaster area, and various hams going and putting eyes on people and reporting back to Mt. Mitchell, who then called the worried family members. Pretty amazing to be part of that and really got me thinking about my own area.
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Not all the helping "hams" were licensed, but we all know the regs state that anybody anywhere can use any radio any time if it involves life and property. So it got used for that, and people were helped. We have to acknowledge that was a good thing, I think, no matter how much we obey the rules.?
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Meshtastic. I really really want to like this platform. The mesh network idea (much I believe initially fleshed out by Zigbee) is something I have followed pretty close, tho haven't actually done it. Too much fiddling still to do to make it work. Also my area of interest is say a 5-7 mile radius with lots of pine trees and slightly rolling hills with the occasional fairly large hill. I don't see any way mestastic will work in its current mode even if you could buy an off-the-shelf unit that works, which I'm not sure you can do (except maybe a LilyGo T or similar, and last I checked they didn't have a damn case for it).?
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I've put up a GMRS repeater on my farm with the intention of getting as many of my neighbors using as possible. Shouldn't be hard to do --- we have recently begun building a neighborhood group (people love to cook and eat together), and Hurricane Helene was heading straight for us and veered off at last minute and went 20 miles east. It destroyed a lot of south and east GA, and all of us have seen the damage and most know somebody affected badly (or killed) by it. We all know it could have been us, and it got everybody's attention pretty well. I just started a month-long weekly technician license class at church 3 weeks ago, and we had 14 people show up from 3 different counties. Everyone in the class knows somebody in NC affected by Helene and it got their attention. Our little county has currently 3 hams who know how to operate, the rest have died off. So by New Year's Day we should have another 10 or so, and I'll begin another class the next week.
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The initial goal is get as many as I can on GMRS and some of those will become hams, and I'm planning accordingly. We will attempt on GMRS, knowing it will work on ham freqs.?
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Really appreciate the input. Maybe the conversation will lead to other people in other areas figuring out how to get their neighbors fixed up. We know how easy it is to lose comms, and we know that nobody is coming to help us but ourselves. With that in mind, we've all got plenty to think about and do. We have a lot of collective brainpower, thanks for sharing it.
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Really appreciate this conversation and the space to have it in. Perhaps it will have far-reaching effects.
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DC
W4TRJ
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Yep, I experienced Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico, and that was a major wake-up call to the ham community there.? Now they have an island-wide packet network as a result, and a lot of GMRS repeaters have gone up.
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Maybe a sort of old-school setup, using voice instead of data, like cludging together an answering machine using a computer?? And license-free FRS radios because that's simpler and cheap??? Audio-input to the computer triggers automatic recording to mp3 or wav files.? The trick would be how to retrieve voice messages by users and how to get each recorded message identifiable as for specific users.? Maybe DTMF by using their keypad on their radio (if it has a keypad).? On second thought, it sounds really complicated :)? Just brain-storming here...
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I've run a FRS/GMRS radio during storms as part of a Neighborhood HamWatch program using software that folks normally use for monitoring scanners. It records the message and adds a time stamp.?
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73, Steve KB1TCE
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I think you should look into LoRa
Trying to get even a reasonable percentage of the population onto digital Anything is a pretty high ask. Voice is about all most people can handle.?
Legally, GRMS offers good voice communications over a wide range, we can cover our entire huge county with it with a highly placed repeater. If that were to come down, we can have alternatives show up the vast majority of people even in ham radio can’t figure out digital.
Thank you for your willingness to try.
Gordon kx4z
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On Dec 19, 2024, at 18:21, Steve Hansen via groups.io <shansen@...> wrote:
? I've run a FRS/GMRS radio during storms as part of a Neighborhood HamWatch program using software that folks normally use for monitoring scanners. It records the message and adds a time stamp.?
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73, Steve KB1TCE
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Gordon
have you actually tried lora
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DC
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No, but we had a guy do a demonstration. It might do what you want and I think you don’t have to have a license. It’s really slow. I don’t know if you could make a bulletin board out of it, but I think it can handle some messages. You’re really asking way too much ofcommon people.?
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On Dec 19, 2024, at 20:05, David Clark via groups.io <cw.w4trj@...> wrote:
? Gordon
have you actually tried lora
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DC
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Gordon
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I have some uncommon folks here. And common folks can do some amazing stuff when trying to save their own family's butt
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Well acquainted with Lora and huge potential but i cannot imagine it working with low antennas thru our pines and slight hills, and all we'd have is text msgs. Same effort will yield better on GMRS and ham
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How tall is your GMRS antenna and what repeater amd power are you running?
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thanks
DC
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It’s not my repeater. We were provided some services from an antenna at 500 feet that is managed with a circulator so a whole slew of things can be on it. ?
I have a VARA digiPeter at the same height as part of that thing?
Over seven years of effort, I have several RMSs ?in the ?community and several digipeaters for various modes?
But I can count on my fingers the number of people who can really use them. Even some a RRL officials can’t figure this out! ?Or won’t?
Just for comparison, our club scored in the upper 6.5% of the ?4A category inARRL field day and we’re not a contest club …. ?We are an Aries group. ?If this is all that I can achieve with a nationally ranking group, what do you think will happen with just community people?
Gordon kx4z?
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On Dec 19, 2024, at 20:15, David Clark via groups.io <cw.w4trj@...> wrote:
? Gordon
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I have some uncommon folks here. And common folks can do some amazing stuff when trying to save their own family's butt
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Well acquainted with Lora and huge potential but i cannot imagine it working with low antennas thru our pines and slight hills, and all we'd have is text msgs. Same effort will yield better on GMRS and ham
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How tall is your GMRS antenna and what repeater amd power are you running?
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thanks
DC
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500' real good. The 2m I got going is at 350' amd we do pretty good.?
No idea how well I can do with just regular people. I have a nasty habit of thinking positive when it sometimes is not warranted, amd have utterly failed at several things. But Ive also had some astonishing successes as well.?
Old man told me once when I was dejected after a failure "well you tried and nobody else did. The only guarantee is you miss every shot you dont take."?
So, there's that.?
ive tried and succeeded and failed at a bunch of stuff most people never attempt. I always learn something and I aint basing my well-being on what other people do. It needs to be done, there's interest, I'm gonna see what happens. I'll let you know if it's a bust.?
thanks
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DC
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A "simple BBS" does not necessarily make a simple system. Creating messages, sending them, receiving messages, and reading them all contribute to the complexity. ?Some of those contribute more complexity than the BBS. So, think about the whole system, because the parts need to fit together seamlessly. One model of simplicity is the cellular text message system. You could do worse (a lot worse) than that and few would use it.
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Jim, KA7EHK
On 12/19/2024 6:09 PM PST David Clark via groups.io <cw.w4trj@...> wrote:
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500' real good. The 2m I got going is at 350' amd we do pretty good.?
No idea how well I can do with just regular people. I have a nasty habit of thinking positive when it sometimes is not warranted, amd have utterly failed at several things. But Ive also had some astonishing successes as well.?
Old man told me once when I was dejected after a failure "well you tried and nobody else did. The only guarantee is you miss every shot you dont take."?
So, there's that.?
ive tried and succeeded and failed at a bunch of stuff most people never attempt. I always learn something and I aint basing my well-being on what other people do. It needs to be done, there's interest, I'm gonna see what happens. I'll let you know if it's a bust.?
thanks
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DC
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Tadd KA2DEW in NC
Jeff KP3FT
Mauro Veiga
Ray Spreier-KG7AV