On Dec 20, 2024, at 1:11 AM, Jim Wagner via groups.io <wagnejam99@...> wrote:

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A "simple BBS" does not necessarily make a simple system. Creating messages, sending them, receiving messages, and reading them all contribute to the complexity. ?Some of those contribute more complexity than the BBS. So, think about the whole system, because the parts need to fit together seamlessly. One model of simplicity is the cellular text message system. You could do worse (a lot worse) than that and few would use it.

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Jim, KA7EHK

On 12/19/2024 6:09 PM PST David Clark via groups.io <cw.w4trj@...> wrote:

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500' real good. The 2m I got going is at 350' amd we do pretty good.?

No idea how well I can do with just regular people. I have a nasty habit of thinking positive when it sometimes is not warranted, amd have utterly failed at several things. But Ive also had some astonishing successes as well.?

Old man told me once when I was dejected after a failure "well you tried and nobody else did. The only guarantee is you miss every shot you dont take."?

So, there's that.?

ive tried and succeeded and failed at a bunch of stuff most people never attempt. I always learn something and I aint basing my well-being on what other people do. It needs to be done, there's interest, I'm gonna see what happens. I'll let you know if it's a bust.?

thanks

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DC

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?Good morning--

Perhaps I should clarify what I mean by "simpicity:"

For this purpose, the overarching goal is to create a method to communicate to a relatively small group of people in an agricultural amd sparsely populated area.?

These people have shared interests and some common goals and obstacles. They are far from town and government help, they are self-reliant, they are problem-solvers, they look out for and help each other. If you're familiar with the best of old-school small-town America (I recognize some have never seen this), ?these are the people I'm talking about.

The problem to be solved is how to create a means to communicate over a radius of 5-10 miles. Live voice contact has been already solved via a GMRS repeater.

So, here are parameters I'm asking feedback on:

? (I'll say thank you to those already offering excellent feedback so far.)

1. a BBS type system -- meaning a way to distribute messages and/or short bulletins to a group of people. These messages can be retrieved at any time. Henceforth in this writing we will call this "the software."

2. Accessible via RF only, not dependent on Internet or cellular network. Ideally not dependent on a valid Amateur Radio call sign.

3. The software will be easy to install. "Easy" means one click and the installer does the rest, without the user having to be a computer jock. Some config info to be filled in by user. Assume the client install will happen on some number of different machines, say 25 for sake of discussion. If one says "this type of install cannot be done," I refer you to essentially any Mac software in the last 37 years of my own experience, or the Winlink install I did last month. This is not an attempt to debate Mac vs any other platform. It's simply an illustration of the desired parameter.

4. The BBS software and radio runs all the time.

5. The "client" connects when desired as simply as possible -- turn on radio to a given frequency/channel, start client software, click connect button, login, retrieve messages. Interact further, or not.?

6. The BBS's of 1989 era were previously mentioned as the model because they were straight to the point. Form followed function. No draperies in the cabin. No doubt there was a lot going on behind the scenes, but anyone back then witnessed little old ladies accessing them easily. Simple. They were small and fast enough, performing excellent work over 1200 baud modems.?

7. Thats it. Some will say nobody will use it. That is not the question I'm posing. While it may be a valid rabbit trail for the cynical, it's not under consideration. The focus is on what CAN be done, not on what people will or will not do. My neighbors do remarkable things all the time, from helping to birth calves to helping put out grass fires, to spur-of-the-moment cooking for 200. This doesn't count growing and harvesting crops and keeping the monstrous machines running to do that.

8. Additionally, I'm requesting the collective brainpower to create something that can be used anywhere in the country, as a way for similarly situated groups to retain some semblance of community in times of adversity. The scenes we've seen play out in western NC provide plenty of examples of adversity bringing out amazing response by common people, and also give an idea of how helpful something like this could have been had it been in place. When one has zero "normal" comms or outside help, anything will be better than that.

Thanks to all,

DC

W4TRJ

On Dec 20, 2024, at 1:11 AM, Jim Wagner via groups.io <wagnejam99@...> wrote:

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A "simple BBS" does not necessarily make a simple system. Creating messages, sending them, receiving messages, and reading them all contribute to the complexity. ?Some of those contribute more complexity than the BBS. So, think about the whole system, because the parts need to fit together seamlessly. One model of simplicity is the cellular text message system. You could do worse (a lot worse) than that and few would use it.

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Jim, KA7EHK

On 12/19/2024 6:09 PM PST David Clark via groups.io <cw.w4trj@...> wrote:

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500' real good. The 2m I got going is at 350' amd we do pretty good.?

No idea how well I can do with just regular people. I have a nasty habit of thinking positive when it sometimes is not warranted, amd have utterly failed at several things. But Ive also had some astonishing successes as well.?

Old man told me once when I was dejected after a failure "well you tried and nobody else did. The only guarantee is you miss every shot you dont take."?

So, there's that.?

ive tried and succeeded and failed at a bunch of stuff most people never attempt. I always learn something and I aint basing my well-being on what other people do. It needs to be done, there's interest, I'm gonna see what happens. I'll let you know if it's a bust.?

thanks

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DC

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Ben --

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And anyone else actually familiar with meshtastic aside from watching youtube vids (like me) ---

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-- I see we have the choice of 800 or 900 mhz OR also listed is 433 mhz. I'm thinking 433 might be better in my area due to vegetation etc. Anyone got an opinion?

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-- Has anybody actually used a Lilygo T Deck? Does it actually work? This is a stand alone unit (similar to what I described several messages up), with self contained keyboard etc and not requiring a cell phone. Just thinking one set of batteries is enough to keep charged in an emergency situation.

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-- Would really like to hear from anyone with actualy experience in this group with meshtastic. I've spoken to some meshtastic only guys, they were very excited about things that as a ham don't blow my dress up at all (ranges of 300 yrds etc), simply because they've never been exposed to ham ranges and capabilities. That's why I am leaning towards? ham-type solution even if it's more complex.

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BUT

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I am open minded on the meshtastic, because as stated I "want" to like it. I'm just not convinced it really works.?

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Ben you're saying it really works. Do you know this first-hand? Not doubting you, just clarifying.?

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Thank you --

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DC

W4TRJ

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On 12/20/2024 12:06 PM PST Ben Kuhn via groups.io <ku0hn@...> wrote:

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Hi David,

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-- I see we have the choice of 800 or 900 mhz OR also listed is 433 mhz. I'm thinking 433 might be better in my area due to vegetation etc. Anyone got an opinion?

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For unlicensed folks, the only real choice is 900MHz.? 433MHz and 800MHz are ISM bands in other regions, but not North America.? If everyone was a ham, 433 would be an option and provide for a much better link budget but if everyone is unlicensed 900MHz will keep it legal.? Also high gain antennas for 900MHz are much cheaper and smaller.

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-- Has anybody actually used a Lilygo T Deck? Does it actually work? This is a stand alone unit (similar to what I described several messages up), with self contained keyboard etc and not requiring a cell phone. Just thinking one set of batteries is enough to keep charged in an emergency situation.

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Yes and Yes*.? The Asterisk on the second Yes is because the device works okay with the mainline firmware, but the user interface is pretty bad since it's the same interface as the little nodes with OLED screens and 3 buttons.? You can send and receive messages via the built-in keyboard.? The device has to be configured with the phone app over bluetooth though.

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?There is a highly experimental graphical firmware for this device and it's pretty neat but missing some features.? One caveat is it has to be configured on the device itself so inputting encryption keys is a major pain.? You can't just scan a QR code on a phone like with the standard firmware.? The firmware isn't being built/published so you have to compile it yourself or find someone who already has.

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This is my T-Deck in a 3d printed case with a 3p 18650 Li-Ion battery.? It lasts about a week between charges but it's quite thick with that much battery.? The new version that comes with a case and battery pack included is probably easier for your non-technical folks.

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I wouldn't suggest a T-Deck with either firmware as an only meshtastic device.? It's a great "interface device" but your antennas are limited since you carry it around.? If you pair it with a Heltec v3 or something similar with a high-gain antenna up high, the Heltec can forward anything over the mesh to the T-Deck.

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-- Would really like to hear from anyone with actualy experience in this group with meshtastic. I've spoken to some meshtastic only guys, they were very excited about things that as a ham don't blow my dress up at all (ranges of 300 yrds etc), simply because they've never been exposed to ham ranges and capabilities. That's why I am leaning towards? ham-type solution even if it's more complex.

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Like anything else with a radio in it, range is entirely dependent on your antenna situation and the path.? A tiny compromised antenna might only go 300 yards, kind of like the rubber duck on an FRS radio.? If you mount the radio outside on a mast with an 8dbi omni antenna right above it (to minimize coax loss) you are going to have a much better time.? If you are at the periphery of the covered area, going with a high gain beam will do even better.? Multi-mile links aren't hard with a good antenna, and tens of miles aren't too difficult if both antennas are up high with clear line of sight.? Also, remember, it's a mesh so you can talk to stations. 3-4 hops away.? You don't need a clear line of sight to everyone else in the mesh.

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Consider that a couple decades ago it was very common for WISPs to use 900MHz because it could penetrate foliage better than 2.4 or 5GHz.? They were running wifi over 4-8MHz wide channels and going 10 or so miles with multi-megabit speeds while staying within the limitations of the ISM bands.? LoRA is much more of a weak-signal mode than 802.11 wifi and the limitations are identical.? The robustness of the protocol gives it a range advantage.

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My suggestion is to design and build the way the WISP people do.? Put an antenna as high as you can with the radio mounted next to it to minimize coax loss.? The only real difference is I would suggest using an omni antenna if you can so that your node can extend the mesh.? If an omni doesn't have enough gain, then a yagi or panel-type beam is the way to go.? Antennas are cheap for this band.? Really cheap.

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73,

Ben - KU0HN

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On Friday, December 20th, 2024 at 1:13 PM, David Clark via groups.io <cw.w4trj@...> wrote:

Ben --

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And anyone else actually familiar with meshtastic aside from watching youtube vids (like me) ---

?

-- I see we have the choice of 800 or 900 mhz OR also listed is 433 mhz. I'm thinking 433 might be better in my area due to vegetation etc. Anyone got an opinion?

?

-- Has anybody actually used a Lilygo T Deck? Does it actually work? This is a stand alone unit (similar to what I described several messages up), with self contained keyboard etc and not requiring a cell phone. Just thinking one set of batteries is enough to keep charged in an emergency situation.

?

-- Would really like to hear from anyone with actualy experience in this group with meshtastic. I've spoken to some meshtastic only guys, they were very excited about things that as a ham don't blow my dress up at all (ranges of 300 yrds etc), simply because they've never been exposed to ham ranges and capabilities. That's why I am leaning towards? ham-type solution even if it's more complex.

?

BUT

?

I am open minded on the meshtastic, because as stated I "want" to like it. I'm just not convinced it really works.?

?

Ben you're saying it really works. Do you know this first-hand? Not doubting you, just clarifying.?

?

Thank you --

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DC

W4TRJ

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