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Christine's Questions, Part 2 - Hell, Death, Judgment and other simple issues

Ray All Messages By This Member #49 Hi Christine, I rushed out my last answer.? Rereading it I realised that my last sentence should read, “Well, it turns out that we find in Genesis 15:2 that if Abraham goes childless, he names his chief servant, who we find is named ‘Eliezer/Eleazar,’ as his heir.” You wrote, “Furthermore, the narrative would indicate that judgment occurs at the moment of death, not at the resurrection and before our Judge's Throne? I have some perhaps ideas on this, but would appreciate further thoughts.” The New Testament lists three judgments, the Bema Seat Judgment (2 Cor 5:10;?1 Cor 3:11–15), the Sheep and Goats Judgment (Matt 25:31–46), and the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11–15).? None of them occurs at the moment of death. Only saved believers appear before the Bema Seat. People who believe in a Rapture believe that this judgment will occur AFTER the Rapture occurs. ?Salvation isn’t the issue, because Jesus nailed that on the Cross.? This is where the foundation that the deceased believers' built-in life is judged: “gold, silver, precious stones, [or] wood, hay, stubble.”? It’s not the person being judged, that has already been done and they passed.? It’s their works (what they did with their justification). The Sheep and Goat Judgment?occurs on or soon after the Second Coming (before the Millennium begins). All the nations (people) shall be gathered before Jesus and he will separate them one from another on the basis of their works, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. The Great White Throne?occurs at the end of the?Millennium.? It judges the unsaved dead for salvation or eternal damnation (the Second Death), and ushers in the New Heavens, the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem.? People who appeared before the Bema Seat Judgment or who passed the Sheep and Goats Judgement will not face the Great White Throne Judgment.? There is no double jeopardy. Christine, that’s what the New Testament says about judgments.? This answers your question but probably doesn’t address what you were after. The problem is using the term “judgment” which has the specific meanings noted above. Your question is really about what happens when a person dies BEFORE they face judgment.? The Abraham’s Bosum story that you mention refers to the Old Testament belief that the disembodied spirits of the departed go to an abode of the unsaved dead while awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment.? This is called “Hades”.? Their bodies remain in the grave. Per Jesus’ description in Luke 16:19-31, the (disembodied soul of the) wicked rich man wound up in flames in Hades, while the (disembodied soul of the) beggar named Lazarus ended up in Abraham’s bosom which was right next door. So here’s my (non)answer to your underlying question. Which part of Hades an individual’s disembodied soul ended up in the Old Testament wasn’t a matter of a “judgment” per se, it just happened righteously and automatically and was not contested.? It’s like the disembodied souls there were in something like pre-trial confinement. To some degree, this is moot for justified believers, because it seems in the New Testament that Jesus emptied Abraham’s bosom when He conquered death.? The souls of the departed believers are with Christ.? They will face the Bema Seat Judgment (whenever it occurs).? The disembodied souls of everyone else are still where they were before Jesus came, awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment. Blessings, Ray On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 09:47:09 am AEST, Christine <cjmcfadyen46@...> wrote: Hi Ray and fellow RO9ers, Can anyone provide a short, simple definition of Replacement Theology and problems that may arise if following this school of thought? Re the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Drs David Jeremiah and Chuck Missler, amongst others, including our Ray S, suggest that this is no parable, but that it actually happened. If so, it does shed light for me on problematic passages e.g. Christ's words to the thief on the cross. However, a reason given to exclude the story from parable status is that parables don't use given names - hence the poor man is Lazarus. Why, then, is the chief character not also named?? Furthermore, the narrative would indicate that judgement occurs at the moment of death, not at the resurrection and before ourJudge's Throne? I have some perhaps ideas on this, but would appreciate further thoughts. PS Is the meaning of Lazarus' name significant in the context of the story? Look forward eagerly to Ruth part 2. Keep well, everyone, Christine
Christine All Messages By This Member #52 Thanks, Ray, You are correct in assuming that my query didn't concern the nature/purpose of the 3 major judgements, but that, at the moment of death and prior to the Throne Judgements, souls immediately find out the direction of their eternal destiny, and either punishment or reward commences then, and there even if the setting is just an anteroom , as it were. Do you think the outcome is based on individual's life choices and so they are not necessarily surprised about where they find themselves? toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Tue, 4 Aug 2020, 2:16 pm Ray via , <ray.sarlin=[email protected]> wrote: Hi Christine, I rushed out my last answer.? Rereading it I realised that my last sentence should read, “Well, it turns out that we find in Genesis 15:2 that if Abraham goes childless, he names his chief servant, who we find is named ‘Eliezer/Eleazar,’ as his heir.” You wrote, “Furthermore, the narrative would indicate that judgment occurs at the moment of death, not at the resurrection and before our Judge's Throne? I have some perhaps ideas on this, but would appreciate further thoughts.” The New Testament lists three judgments, the Bema Seat Judgment (2 Cor 5:10;?1 Cor 3:11–15), the Sheep and Goats Judgment (Matt 25:31–46), and the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11–15).? None of them occurs at the moment of death. Only saved believers appear before the Bema Seat. People who believe in a Rapture believe that this judgment will occur AFTER the Rapture occurs.? Salvation isn’t the issue, because Jesus nailed that on the Cross.? This is where the foundation that the deceased believers' built-in life is judged: “gold, silver, precious stones, [or] wood, hay, stubble.”? It’s not the person being judged, that has already been done and they passed.? It’s their works (what they did with their justification). The Sheep and Goat Judgment?occurs on or soon after the Second Coming (before the Millennium begins). All the nations (people) shall be gathered before Jesus and he will separate them one from another on the basis of their works, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. The Great White Throne?occurs at the end of the?Millennium.? It judges the unsaved dead for salvation or eternal damnation (the Second Death), and ushers in the New Heavens, the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem.? People who appeared before the Bema Seat Judgment or who passed the Sheep and Goats Judgement will not face the Great White Throne Judgment.? There is no double jeopardy. Christine, that’s what the New Testament says about judgments.? This answers your question but probably doesn’t address what you were after. The problem is using the term “judgment” which has the specific meanings noted above. Your question is really about what happens when a person dies BEFORE they face judgment.? The Abraham’s Bosum story that you mention refers to the Old Testament belief that the disembodied spirits of the departed go to an abode of the unsaved dead while awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment.? This is called “Hades”.? Their bodies remain in the grave. Per Jesus’ description in Luke 16:19-31, the (disembodied soul of the) wicked rich man wound up in flames in Hades, while the (disembodied soul of the) beggar named Lazarus ended up in Abraham’s bosom which was right next door. So here’s my (non)answer to your underlying question. Which part of Hades an individual’s disembodied soul ended up in the Old Testament wasn’t a matter of a “judgment” per se, it just happened righteously and automatically and was not contested.? It’s like the disembodied souls there were in something like pre-trial confinement. To some degree, this is moot for justified believers, because it seems in the New Testament that Jesus emptied Abraham’s bosom when He conquered death.? The souls of the departed believers are with Christ.? They will face the Bema Seat Judgment (whenever it occurs).? The disembodied souls of everyone else are still where they were before Jesus came, awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment. Blessings, Ray On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 09:47:09 am AEST, Christine <cjmcfadyen46@...> wrote: Hi Ray and fellow RO9ers, Can anyone provide a short, simple definition of Replacement Theology and problems that may arise if following this school of thought? Re the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Drs David Jeremiah and Chuck Missler, amongst others, including our Ray S, suggest that this is no parable, but that it actually happened. If so, it does shed light for me on problematic passages e.g. Christ's words to the thief on the cross. However, a reason given to exclude the story from parable status is that parables don't use given names - hence the poor man is Lazarus. Why, then, is the chief character not also named?? Furthermore, the narrative would indicate that judgement occurs at the moment of death, not at the resurrection and before ourJudge's Throne? I have some perhaps ideas on this, but would appreciate further thoughts. PS Is the meaning of Lazarus' name significant in the context of the story? Look forward eagerly to Ruth part 2. Keep well, everyone, Christine

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