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Re: U3A R09 Bible Class Optional Participant Survey closes 5 PM on Wednesday, 5 August
G'day all, Thanks to all who have completed the course survey.? The response thus far has been excellent, and some great input has been collected.? The survey will close Wednesday, 5 August, at 5 P.M. If you would like to but haven't yet participated, please click on the link below and take the survey.? It will only take a few moments of your time, and the data will be analysed and forwarded to U3A headquarters.? I'm sure that they'll find it helpful. Thanks again. Blessings, Ray |
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Re: Further to Christine's response to Questions, Part 2 - Hell, Death, Judgment and other simple issues
Hi Christine, We already covered the Bible stuff.? All the rest is just speculation.? Regarding whether or not the disembodied souls are surprised, I would suspect that any sentient soul will be.? We're dealing with really important extremes, after all.?? What I would like to address is your comment, "souls immediately find out the direction of their eternal destiny."? I don't agree.? Of course,? I don't really know, but that would seem to negate the need for the Great White Throne Judgement, and probably the Sheep and Goats Judgement as well.? I see God as compassionate, fair, AND efficient. [My second engineering degree was a B.Sc. in Industrial Engineering, after all.]? I mean why punish a soul for up to 1,000 years or so, only to present before a Judge to hear, "What are you here for? Go back to Hades."? Plus, both the Sheep and Goats Judgement and the Great White Throne Judgement are real judgments, where the verdict could be positive ("Join the sheep") or not ("You goat!"). So, to my simple mind, Christine, I respectfully disagree about eternal destiny and punishment or reward occurring at the moment of death.? I'd rather take the Bible as written. Blessings, Ray
On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 04:58:51 pm AEST, Christine <cjmcfadyen46@...> wrote:
Thanks, Ray, You are correct in assuming that my query didn't concern the nature/purpose of the 3 major judgements, but that, at the moment of death and prior to the Throne Judgements, souls immediately find out the direction of their eternal destiny, and either punishment or reward commences then, and there even if the setting is just an anteroom , as it were. Do you think the outcome is based on individual's life choices and so they are not necessarily surprised about where they find themselves? On Tue, 4 Aug 2020, 2:16 pm Ray via , <ray.sarlin=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: Question 4: Comments on the Recovery Bible
Hi again, Christine, Living Stream Ministries (LSM) is the publisher of the works of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, believers who came to Christ in China.? Witness Lee went to Taiwan during the Revolution, while Watchman Nee stayed on the Mainland. Their stories make interesting reading.? Watchman Nee died in a CCP prison in 1972, while Witness Lee went to California in 1962 and died in 1997. Their prolific writings are very interesting and often inspiring. But you didn't ask that. You asked about the Recovery Bible, which is annotated with some notes of Watchman Nee.?? Christine, did you happen upon Brother Yun from his ministry in Brisbane some years ago?? His story is truly inspiring, especially how he prayed for a bible.? One day a Bible was delivered to his door.? He then learned that much of the detail of what he had been taught by his mother, an early convert in her job as a servant to a Western Missionary (I hope I remember the story correctly after so many years), had been completely misunderstood because of the language problem.? But what hadn't been misunderstood was the spirit!? And the willingness to die for the Faith! I mention that because I stand in awe of what those believers in China went through for Christ.? Their faith and perseverance in the face of evil was and is remarkable.? Their books and recollections are valuable contributions to Christian history and literature.? But we're talking about a particular Bible translation.? Watchman Nee is known to have become something of a mystic later in his career, the last decade or so spent in prison. LSM's statement of beliefs had no surprises, either added or omitted. Only the NT was available online, although there is an OT published.? I looked at the sample pages online and "tested" a few of my favorite checks within the text.? It seems to be a straightforward read in English, with voluminous footnotes in some places and none in others.? That by itself doesn't mean anything.? I also checked several of my "test" passages.? Mark 16:9-20 was included in full without an annotation (kudos) while the Johannine Comma in 1 John 5:6-8 was omitted (sigh!).? I checked a few other places as well, including the prefatory materials which generally explain the major sources used.? This all pointed to the observation that the unnamed translators and authors of the Recovery Bible used the same core resources as other modern translations. The work was done in California.? In other words, this translation does not appear to be appreciably different from other modern Bible versions available in English. This is not a study Bible in the strictest sense.? For study I would suggest sticking with the more traditional translations that are included in the serious Bible websites that facilitate quick checks of the original languages and cross-referencing with commentaries. Blessings, Ray
On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 04:52:31 pm AEST, Christine <cjmcfadyen46@...> wrote:
I intended to include this question with the earlier two: ?Ray, with your extensive, detailed investigations into strengths and weaknesses of various English translations of the Scriptures, could you, please, comment on The Recovery Version? I've been given a copy by a Christian, who in turn was given it by another Christian! It is disseminated by an American nfp organisation called Bibles for Australia. It's generous of this group to send us free Bibles - they are not to be sold - but l wonder if they are reaching the intended recipients! This version appears to be linked with a Living Waters church and a Watchman Nee. Thanks, Christine On Tue, 4 Aug 2020, 9:47 am Christine via , <cjmcfadyen46=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: Addressing Question 3 on Replacement Theology
Hi Christine, “Can anyone provide a short, simple definition of Replacement Theology and problems that may arise if following this school of thought?” The answer to your
question is, “Yes.” Oh, aren't you satisfied with that answer??
Replacement theology, under many names, teaches that the promises made to Israel in the Tanakh, the Hebrew Bible also known as the Old Testament are fulfilled in the Christian Church.? Basically, its adherents believe that God is finished with His dealings with Israel and that all unfulfilled promises to Israel are transferred to the spiritual “church”. The primary problem that arises from this heresy is that it contradicts the clear reading of the text of both the Old Testament and the New Testament. For example, God made four covenants with the people of the Old Testament.? The New Testament in no place invalidates them, which would make God’s promises to be lies.? Instead, it adds on the New Covenant wherein salvation is ALSO offered to Gentiles.? There are many places in the New Testament that make this point.? The most explicit is Paul’s treatise on Israel in the book of Romans where Chapter 9 covers Israel’s past, Chapter 10 Israel’s present, and Chapter 11 Israel’s future. In replacement theology, Old Testament covenants with Israel are REPLACED by the new covenant. After Pentecost in Acts, the term “Israel” refers to the “Church”. To justify deviation from the plain text, Church leaders even before Augustine of Hippo (AD 354-430) adopted the amillennial interpretation of Scripture.? They allegorized parts of Scripture that conflict with their belief that Israel had forfeited her covenants including the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant by rejecting Christ, and so to them, Scripture has lost its authority.? For example, while Revelation clearly states six times that Christ will rule for 1,000 years after Armageddon (which hasn’t yet happened), amillennials claim that to be a figure of speech, an allegory, and not a real period.? Some say that the 1,000 years has come and gone; others claim that it is here now and Christ rules in our hearts; there are also many other guesses that differ from the biblical text. Holding a worldview that the Jews are no longer God’s Chosen People logically leads to the primary practical application of that perspective, the doctrine of anti-Semitism. After all, they say, the Jews killed Christ. All of the Bible’s blessings are now directed to the Church, while all of the judgements are retained by Israel.? Anti-Semitism has plagued many of the mainstream religions (Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, etc.) from the beginning.? I could add an argument concerning Islam since its inception here as well. Modern anti-Semitism is often shrouded in anti-Zionism, which offers a thin camouflage for those who hold it, including many secular left-wing Jews in the West. One reason for the vehement hatred of Israel by some is an inability to harmonize their belief that Israel was replaced in God’s eye (or, alternatively, that there is no God) with the reality that the Nation of Israel was resurrected on 14 May 1948, after a 1,920-year diaspora.? That was indeed a miracle, and yet it was prophesied in the Old Testament to the very day. Christine, to sum up, the many problems that arise from denying the plain text of the Bible can lead one down Alice in Wonderland’s rabbit hole.? As the Cheshire Cat said, “I’m not strange, weird, off, or crazy; my reality is just different from yours.” Blessings, Ray NOTE 1:? I said “whatever that means” about “Christian Church” because one of the huge issues today is that there is great disagreement amongst replacement theologists about who or what HAS replaced Israel.? To the Catholic Church, it means the Catholic Church.? Ditto JWs.? And so on. NOTE 2: Some other names
for replacement theology include supersessionism and fulfillment theology. Adherents
claim distinctions but all believe that promises to Israel are now the Church’s (whatever that means, see Note 1).?  |
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Re: Christine's Questions, Part 2 - Hell, Death, Judgment and other simple issues
Hi Christine, I rushed out my last answer.? Rereading it I realised that my last sentence should read, “Well, it turns out that we find in Genesis 15:2 that if Abraham goes childless, he names his chief servant, who we find is named ‘Eliezer/Eleazar,’ as his heir.” You wrote, “Furthermore, the narrative would indicate that judgment occurs at the moment of death, not at the resurrection and before our Judge's Throne? I have some perhaps ideas on this, but would appreciate further thoughts.” The New Testament lists three judgments, the Bema Seat Judgment (2 Cor 5:10;?1 Cor 3:11–15), the Sheep and Goats Judgment (Matt 25:31–46), and the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11–15).? None of them occurs at the moment of death. Only saved believers appear before the Bema Seat. People who believe in a Rapture believe that this judgment will occur AFTER the Rapture occurs. ?Salvation isn’t the issue, because Jesus nailed that on the Cross.? This is where the foundation that the deceased believers' built-in life is judged: “gold, silver, precious stones, [or] wood, hay, stubble.”? It’s not the person being judged, that has already been done and they passed.? It’s their works (what they did with their justification). The Sheep and Goat Judgment?occurs on or soon after the Second Coming (before the Millennium begins). All the nations (people) shall be gathered before Jesus and he will separate them one from another on the basis of their works, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. The Great White Throne?occurs at the end of the?Millennium.? It judges the unsaved dead for salvation or eternal damnation (the Second Death), and ushers in the New Heavens, the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem.? People who appeared before the Bema Seat Judgment or who passed the Sheep and Goats Judgement will not face the Great White Throne Judgment.? There is no double jeopardy. Christine, that’s what the New Testament says about judgments.? This answers your question but probably doesn’t address what you were after. The problem is using the term “judgment” which has the specific meanings noted above. Your question is really about what happens when a person dies BEFORE they face judgment.? The Abraham’s Bosum story that you mention refers to the Old Testament belief that the disembodied spirits of the departed go to an abode of the unsaved dead while awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment.? This is called “Hades”.? Their bodies remain in the grave. Per Jesus’ description in Luke 16:19-31, the (disembodied soul of the) wicked rich man wound up in flames in Hades, while the (disembodied soul of the) beggar named Lazarus ended up in Abraham’s bosom which was right next door. So here’s my (non)answer to your underlying question. Which part of Hades an individual’s disembodied soul ended up in the Old Testament wasn’t a matter of a “judgment” per se, it just happened righteously and automatically and was not contested.? It’s like the disembodied souls there were in something like pre-trial confinement. To some degree, this is moot for justified believers, because it seems in the New Testament that Jesus emptied Abraham’s bosom when He conquered death.? The souls of the departed believers are with Christ.? They will face the Bema Seat Judgment (whenever it occurs).? The disembodied souls of everyone else are still where they were before Jesus came, awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment. Ray
On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 09:47:09 am AEST, Christine <cjmcfadyen46@...> wrote:
Hi Ray and fellow RO9ers,
Can anyone provide a short, simple definition of Replacement Theology and problems that may arise if following this school of thought? Re the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Drs David Jeremiah and Chuck Missler, amongst others, including our Ray S, suggest that this is no parable, but that it actually happened. If so, it does shed light for me on problematic passages e.g. Christ's words to the thief on the cross. However, a reason given to exclude the story from parable status is that parables don't use given names - hence the poor man is Lazarus. Why, then, is the chief character not also named?? Furthermore, the narrative would indicate that judgement occurs at the moment of death, not at the resurrection and before ourJudge's Throne? I have some perhaps ideas on this, but would appreciate further thoughts. PS Is the meaning of Lazarus' name significant in the context of the story? Look forward eagerly to Ruth part 2. Keep well, everyone, Christine |
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Re: Questions
Hi Peter and Christine, Thanks for both the question and the interesting answer.? This is a great example of the differences between religions that have arisen over several thousand years.? Peter, your bible dictionary is correct but completely Catholic-centered. The name?Λαζαροσ (Lazaros) is the Greek version of the Hebrew?????? (Eleazar), which means "whom God helped/helps."? It occurs 15 times in the New Testament in connection with two people, the beggar in Luke 16 and the brother of Mary and Martha whom Jesus raised from the dead in John 11.???The meaning of the name
applies to both. Bible-believing scholars state that named people were real and parables don’t actually give their characters names.? It’s interesting that Luke 16:20 introduces the beggar Lazarus by saying, “And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, ….”? This certainly seems to reinforce that a real person is being discussed. The Hebrew Eleazar is another interesting
case.? It occurs 74 times in 71 verses,
two times in Matthews’s genealogy and the rest in the OT.? What makes this interesting is where his name
isn’t used, in Genesis 24 where Abraham’s unnamed servant is sent to find a bride for
Isaac.? This is widely seen as a prophecy
of the New Testament with Abraham representing God, Isaac as the Son, the unnamed servant
as the Holy Spirit, and Rebekah as the Son’s bride, the Christians.? Three times the servant bows and worships the
Lord.? Told to go to Abraham’s family to
seek the bride, instead, he goes to a well and prays for the first girl who
provides him water. ?He initiates the
contact.? When she does not just pass his
test (“Give me water”) she obliterates it (she waters his camels as well), he
gives her a nose ring weighing a half-shekel (the temple tax given to
God).? Of course, it also turns out that she is from Abraham's family after all.? Any rate, the whole chapter promotes
the concept that this is prophetic.?? Fair enough, so what?
Well,
it turns out that we find in Genesis 15:2 that if he goes childless, his chief
servant, Eliezer/Eleazor is his heir.?So, Christine, is the name meaningful?? Thanks to Peter, I can say, "yessir, yessir (or ma'am), three bags full!" Blessings, Ray
On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 11:47:54 am AEST, Peter L <peterlonsdale1@...> wrote:
Hi Christine My bible dictionary gives the following explanation: “Dives.( From the Latin for wealth), a term that became attached to the name of the rich man in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16: 19-31) because of its use in the Vulgate, a Latin translation of the Bible”. Peter |
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Re: A query on today's Bible study of the book of Ruth.
#ruth
Mandy
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message --------
From: "Ray via groups.io" <ray.sarlin@...>
Date: 31/7/20 1:52 pm (GMT+10:00)
Subject: Re: [b4uc] A query on today's Bible study of the book of Ruth. #Ruth
Hi Mandy,
Thanks for an impossible question, Mandy.
 ?
I mean, why would any parent name their sons "sickly" or "puny"?Naming conventions vary around the world.? For example, growing up on the Navajo Reservation I have several sets of names.? Naturally, I only use my "western" name.
Researching my Finnish ancestry has been complicated because a century ago or so Finland was torn between Russia and Sweden and Finnish nationalism, and many families changed surnames to reflect their loyalties.? Also they tended to have given
names in both Swedish and Finnish and lived in towns with part named in Swedish and part in Finnish.?
The chabad website answers many questions about Judaism.? They have an excellent article on the "Laws of Jewish Naming" at?.
Hope it helps.
Blessings,
Ray
On Friday, 31 July 2020, 01:10:47 pm AEST, Mandy <mandyflynn01@...> wrote:
Thank you lots of info there to digest. When names were chosen for the children why was the meaning of the names important? Take care Mandy?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Ray via groups.io <ray.sarlin@...>
Sent: Thursday, 30 July 2020 7:48 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [b4uc] A query on today's Bible study of the book of Ruth. #Ruth ?
Hi all,
I received an email after class today that read, "Hi
there Ray, food for thought this morning. I just have a question and I thought email would be better than class. From what I understand Ruth then King David were in family line of Jesus and I think Ruth was about 1000BC. I think you said you were not sure
who wrote this book. Why was her history recorded and how did the writer know that Jesus, the Messiah would be born into this line at a much later date. See you next week take care."
I've divided
the answers into two parts:
Who wrote Ruth and why? Because of the?similarity in language between Ruth and the books of Judges and Samuel, Jewish and Christian tradition and the Babylonian Talmud believed that Samuel wrote the book of Ruth.? Written sometime during the 42 years of King Saul’s reign, its purpose was to prepare the people of Israel for David to become king after Saul. Note: As with everything about the Bible, modern scholars are confounded about this. As we’ll see next time, David was a direct descendent of Judah, the first of the Royal Line of the House of Judah.? In fact, the author will take great pains in Ruth 4:18-22 to show that David was the tenth generation from Perez, the illegitimate son of Judah (see Genesis 38). What happened there is one of the biggest scandals of the Old Testament, which has quite a few of them. ?Jacob’s son Judah, who convinced his brothers to sell Joseph of the Many-coloured raincoat rather than kill him, was the first of the kin to violate the edict of Abraham and Isaac and marry a Canaanite lady, Shua the daughter of Hiram the Adullamite.? They had three boys, Er (“forsaken”), Onan (“sorrow”) and Shelah (“deception”).? Er, a wicked man, grew up and marries Tamar.? Alas, he died without issue.? So as we learned this week, the next eldest son was to be the kinsman-redeemer and marry Tamar to keep Er’s family name alive.? Onan was up to the task, but didn’t want Tamar’s kids to inherit the first-born’s double share when Judah died, so he did the Old Testament equivalent of using condoms.? God got upset with this, so Onan also died without issue.? It was now Shelah’s turn to marry Tamar for the sake of Er’s inheritance, but he was still too young, so Judah told Tamar to wait.? So she went to her father’s place and waited for Shelah to come marry her, and waited, and then waited some more. ?Shelah grew up but was never going to marry her. Now the plot thickens.? Remember, this is Boaz’s and David’s illustrious ancestor Judah we’re talking about.? Anyway, I’ll leave the story here; if you want to see what happens next (which is directly related to the book of Ruth, believe it or not), please read Genesis 38. Anyway, Tamar tricks Judah and gets both her revenge and a male heir to inherit Er’s double-portion.? Unfortunately, the male heir, Perez (“breach”, a twin, the great x8 grandfather of king David is illegitimate, and we covered that Law of Exclusion today in class.? But David, being the 10th generation downstream is cool again and the Messianic line continues on to Jesus, with only a few more (well, actually, quite a few more) hiccups along the way. By the way, intermarriage with Canaanites is considered one of the reasons that God punished Jacob’s family of Israelites with the famine that ultimately forced the brothers to go to Egypt to beg food (where they met up with Joseph as the Great Vizier).? That story also contrasts the brothers Judah (essentially a good fellow) and Joseph (a great one). My point is that the author of the book of Ruth knew this family history of dirty laundry and was using it to validate Ruth, Boaz, and David.?
The stage is now set for another descendant of Judah (and David and Boaz and Ruth and Perez and Tamar and Er) to emerge from the Royal line 1,000 years later in the little town of, you guessed it, Bethlehem, where the action in Ruth also takes place. You also asked, “How did the writer know that Jesus, the Messiah would be born into this line at a much later date?” Samuel didn’t know Jesus “from Adam” (to use an unfortunate modern phrase), but he DID know that the Messiah (called “Shiloh” in our study today) would come from the Royal line of Judah.? David would establish the House of David as the royal line, thus bringing the coming of the Messiah that much closer. As I implied today in class, the Bible is much more than merely a dry recitation of God’s plans.? All along the way, that crafty al Satan (the “accuser” or “adversary”) finds clever ways to unravel God’s plans, like having Joseph (a prophetic forerunner of Jesus) sold into slavery, or Tamar being cheated out of propagating the royal line, or Naomi being widowed in a foreign country, or, the ultimate, Jesus being crucified!? Each time, Satan chortles, “I’ve got Him now!? He can’t follow His own 613 laws and still get out of this one!” That’s one of the things about this marvelous book called the Bible that makes it so exciting. Well, I’ve waffled on a bit.? Please, please
feel free to send me any questions or comments.
Blessings,
Ray
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Re: A query on today's Bible study of the book of Ruth.
#ruth
Hi Mandy, Thanks for an impossible question, Mandy. ? I mean, why would any parent name their sons "sickly" or "puny"?Naming conventions vary around the world.? For example, growing up on the Navajo Reservation I have several sets of names.? Naturally, I only use my "western" name. Researching my Finnish ancestry has been complicated because a century ago or so Finland was torn between Russia and Sweden and Finnish nationalism, and many families changed surnames to reflect their loyalties.? Also they tended to have given names in both Swedish and Finnish and lived in towns with part named in Swedish and part in Finnish.? The chabad website answers many questions about Judaism.? They have an excellent article on the "Laws of Jewish Naming" at?. Hope it helps. Blessings, Ray
On Friday, 31 July 2020, 01:10:47 pm AEST, Mandy <mandyflynn01@...> wrote:
Thank you lots of info there to digest. When names were chosen for the children why was the meaning of the names important? Take care Mandy?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Ray via groups.io <ray.sarlin@...>
Sent: Thursday, 30 July 2020 7:48 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [b4uc] A query on today's Bible study of the book of Ruth. #Ruth ?
Hi all,
I received an email after class today that read, "Hi
there Ray, food for thought this morning. I just have a question and I thought email would be better than class. From what I understand Ruth then King David were in family line of Jesus and I think Ruth was about 1000BC. I think you said you were not sure
who wrote this book. Why was her history recorded and how did the writer know that Jesus, the Messiah would be born into this line at a much later date. See you next week take care."
I've
divided the answers into two parts:
Who wrote Ruth and why? Because of the?similarity in language between Ruth and the books of Judges and Samuel, Jewish and Christian tradition and the Babylonian Talmud believed that Samuel wrote the book of Ruth.? Written sometime during the 42 years of King Saul’s reign, its purpose was to prepare the people of Israel for David to become king after Saul. Note: As with everything about the Bible, modern scholars are confounded about this. As we’ll see next time, David was a direct descendent of Judah, the first of the Royal Line of the House of Judah.? In fact, the author will take great pains in Ruth 4:18-22 to show that David was the tenth generation from Perez, the illegitimate son of Judah (see Genesis 38). What happened there is one of the biggest scandals of the Old Testament, which has quite a few of them. ?Jacob’s son Judah, who convinced his brothers to sell Joseph of the Many-coloured raincoat rather than kill him, was the first of the kin to violate the edict of Abraham and Isaac and marry a Canaanite lady, Shua the daughter of Hiram the Adullamite.? They had three boys, Er (“forsaken”), Onan (“sorrow”) and Shelah (“deception”).? Er, a wicked man, grew up and marries Tamar.? Alas, he died without issue.? So as we learned this week, the next eldest son was to be the kinsman-redeemer and marry Tamar to keep Er’s family name alive.? Onan was up to the task, but didn’t want Tamar’s kids to inherit the first-born’s double share when Judah died, so he did the Old Testament equivalent of using condoms.? God got upset with this, so Onan also died without issue.? It was now Shelah’s turn to marry Tamar for the sake of Er’s inheritance, but he was still too young, so Judah told Tamar to wait.? So she went to her father’s place and waited for Shelah to come marry her, and waited, and then waited some more. ?Shelah grew up but was never going to marry her. Now the plot thickens.? Remember, this is Boaz’s and David’s illustrious ancestor Judah we’re talking about.? Anyway, I’ll leave the story here; if you want to see what happens next (which is directly related to the book of Ruth, believe it or not), please read Genesis 38. Anyway, Tamar tricks Judah and gets both her revenge and a male heir to inherit Er’s double-portion.? Unfortunately, the male heir, Perez (“breach”, a twin, the great x8 grandfather of king David is illegitimate, and we covered that Law of Exclusion today in class.? But David, being the 10th generation downstream is cool again and the Messianic line continues on to Jesus, with only a few more (well, actually, quite a few more) hiccups along the way. By the way, intermarriage with Canaanites is considered one of the reasons that God punished Jacob’s family of Israelites with the famine that ultimately forced the brothers to go to Egypt to beg food (where they met up with Joseph as the Great Vizier).? That story also contrasts the brothers Judah (essentially a good fellow) and Joseph (a great one). My point is that the author of the book of Ruth knew this family history of dirty laundry and was using it to validate Ruth, Boaz, and David.?
The stage is now set for another descendant of Judah (and David and Boaz and Ruth and Perez and Tamar and Er) to emerge from the Royal line 1,000 years later in the little town of, you guessed it, Bethlehem, where the action in Ruth also takes place. You also asked, “How did the writer know that Jesus, the Messiah would be born into this line at a much later date?” Samuel didn’t know Jesus “from Adam” (to use an unfortunate modern phrase), but he DID know that the Messiah (called “Shiloh” in our study today) would come from the Royal line of Judah.? David would establish the House of David as the royal line, thus bringing the coming of the Messiah that much closer. As I implied today in class, the Bible is much more than merely a dry recitation of God’s plans.? All along the way, that crafty al Satan (the “accuser” or “adversary”) finds clever ways to unravel God’s plans, like having Joseph (a prophetic forerunner of Jesus) sold into slavery, or Tamar being cheated out of propagating the royal line, or Naomi being widowed in a foreign country, or, the ultimate, Jesus being crucified!? Each time, Satan chortles, “I’ve got Him now!? He can’t follow His own 613 laws and still get out of this one!” That’s one of the things about this marvelous book called the Bible that makes it so exciting. Well,
I’ve waffled on a bit.? Please, please feel free to send me any questions or comments.
Blessings,
Ray
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A query on today's Bible study of the book of Ruth.
#ruth
Hi all, I received an email after class today that read, "Hi there Ray, food for thought this morning. I
just have a question and I thought email would be better than class. From what
I understand Ruth then King David were in family line of Jesus and I think Ruth
was about 1000BC. I think you said you were not sure who wrote this book. Why
was her history recorded and how did the writer know that Jesus, the Messiah
would be born into this line at a much later date. See you next week take care." I've divided the answers into two parts: Who wrote Ruth and why? Because of the?similarity in language between Ruth and the books of Judges and Samuel, Jewish and Christian tradition and the Babylonian Talmud believed that Samuel wrote the book of Ruth.? Written sometime during the 42 years of King Saul’s reign, its purpose was to prepare the people of Israel for David to become king after Saul. Note: As with everything about the Bible, modern scholars are confounded about this. As we’ll see next time, David was a direct descendent of Judah, the first of the Royal Line of the House of Judah.? In fact, the author will take great pains in Ruth 4:18-22 to show that David was the tenth generation from Perez, the illegitimate son of Judah (see Genesis 38). What happened there is one of the biggest scandals of the Old Testament, which has quite a few of them. ?Jacob’s son Judah, who convinced his brothers to sell Joseph of the Many-coloured raincoat rather than kill him, was the first of the kin to violate the edict of Abraham and Isaac and marry a Canaanite lady, Shua the daughter of Hiram the Adullamite.? They had three boys, Er (“forsaken”), Onan (“sorrow”) and Shelah (“deception”).? Er, a wicked man, grew up and marries Tamar.? Alas, he died without issue.? So as we learned this week, the next eldest son was to be the kinsman-redeemer and marry Tamar to keep Er’s family name alive.? Onan was up to the task, but didn’t want Tamar’s kids to inherit the first-born’s double share when Judah died, so he did the Old Testament equivalent of using condoms.? God got upset with this, so Onan also died without issue.? It was now Shelah’s turn to marry Tamar for the sake of Er’s inheritance, but he was still too young, so Judah told Tamar to wait.? So she went to her father’s place and waited for Shelah to come marry her, and waited, and then waited some more. ?Shelah grew up but was never going to marry her. Now the plot thickens.? Remember, this is Boaz’s and David’s illustrious ancestor Judah we’re talking about.? Anyway, I’ll leave the story here; if you want to see what happens next (which is directly related to the book of Ruth, believe it or not), please read Genesis 38. Anyway, Tamar tricks Judah and gets both her revenge and a male heir to inherit Er’s double-portion.? Unfortunately, the male heir, Perez (“breach”, a twin, the great x8 grandfather of king David is illegitimate, and we covered that Law of Exclusion today in class.? But David, being the 10th generation downstream is cool again and the Messianic line continues on to Jesus, with only a few more (well, actually, quite a few more) hiccups along the way. By the way, intermarriage with Canaanites is considered one of the reasons that God punished Jacob’s family of Israelites with the famine that ultimately forced the brothers to go to Egypt to beg food (where they met up with Joseph as the Great Vizier).? That story also contrasts the brothers Judah (essentially a good fellow) and Joseph (a great one). My point is that the author of the book of Ruth knew this family history of dirty laundry and was using it to validate Ruth, Boaz, and David.?
The stage is now set for another descendant of Judah (and David and Boaz and Ruth and Perez and Tamar and Er) to emerge from the Royal line 1,000 years later in the little town of, you guessed it, Bethlehem, where the action in Ruth also takes place. You also asked, “How did the writer know that Jesus, the Messiah would be born into this line at a much later date?” Samuel didn’t know Jesus “from Adam” (to use an unfortunate modern phrase), but he DID know that the Messiah (called “Shiloh” in our study today) would come from the Royal line of Judah.? David would establish the House of David as the royal line, thus bringing the coming of the Messiah that much closer. As I implied today in class, the Bible is much more than merely a dry recitation of God’s plans.? All along the way, that crafty al Satan (the “accuser” or “adversary”) finds clever ways to unravel God’s plans, like having Joseph (a prophetic forerunner of Jesus) sold into slavery, or Tamar being cheated out of propagating the royal line, or Naomi being widowed in a foreign country, or, the ultimate, Jesus being crucified!? Each time, Satan chortles, “I’ve got Him now!? He can’t follow His own 613 laws and still get out of this one!” That’s one of the things about this marvelous book called the Bible that makes it so exciting. Well, I’ve waffled on a bit.? Please, please feel free to send me any questions or comments. Blessings, Ray |
|
Re: U3A R09 Bible - OPTIONAL short survey @R09TNA
Mandy
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-------- Original message --------
From: "Ray via groups.io" <ray.sarlin@...>
Date: 26/7/20 4:33 pm (GMT+10:00)
Subject: Re: [b4uc] U3A R09 Bible - OPTIONAL short survey @R09TNA
Hi Mandy,
Thanks for the email.
You know, it's possible that the technical reason that you couldn't download last Thursday's session was because it hadn't been uploaded.
?Just
sayin'.It's there now.? Thanks for the subtle reminder.
There were two overriding points from the session, which I'll spoil for you by just telling you flat out now.? Here goes:
1.? Men and women are different.? I'll bet that you didn't know that.? Anyway I discussed some of the current psychological studies, etc. to make the point because 2 and 3 John are almost identical in content but 2 John is addressed to a woman
and 3 John to a man.? God is actually very sophisticated and up-to-date with the latest human studies which point out that, at the extremes of a normal distribution, men are more driven by truth and women by love. This is derived from the findings that, although
there are massive overlaps showing that men and women are far more similar than different (physically, emotionally, in interests, etc.), at the extremes men are more interested in things and women in people.? I'll drop it here because you probably already
know this stuff, but it's important in understanding 2 and 3 John.
2.? Despite more than 1,600 years of people trying to invent clever interpretations of the "Elect Lady" to whom 2 John is addressed, it makes the most sense to assume that John is writing to his Christ-given charge, Mary.? But I've also listed
four other views that are much more commonly held (for what I frankly see as sexist reasons).? So, if true, 2 John is the only book of the 66 written to a woman.
Anyway, enough boring commentary from me.? Please feel to write if you have any questions or comments from perusing the notes.
Blessings,
Ray
On Sunday, 26 July 2020, 03:49:54 pm AEST, Mandy <mandyflynn01@...> wrote:
Hi there Ray just going through the work I missed in the last 2 Thursdays 're John I could open notes for 16th but unable to for 23rd.. I will keep trying . Looking forward to Ruth. Take care Mandy ?
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: "Ray via groups.io" <ray.sarlin@...>
Date: 26/7/20 3:28 pm (GMT+10:00)
Subject: [Special] [b4uc] U3A R09 Bible - OPTIONAL short survey @R09TNA
G'day,
In planning for a partial reopening of in-class U3A courses, tutors are completing a brief survey.? That prompted me to ask you a few questions to help plan for Term 4 whether or not it proceeds as in-person classes.? ? The survey at the location shown below has just a few multiple-choice questions.? Each question includes space for brief comments.??Please take a few minutes to complete it. Thank you for your valuable input. If you have any concerns or questions about this survey, please contact?Ray via email at?ray.sarlin@.... https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/7DQRRXY Blessings, Ray |
|
Re: U3A R09 Bible - OPTIONAL short survey @R09TNA
Hi Mandy, Thanks for the email. You know, it's possible that the technical reason that you couldn't download last Thursday's session was because it hadn't been uploaded. ?Just sayin'.It's there now.? Thanks for the subtle reminder. There were two overriding points from the session, which I'll spoil for you by just telling you flat out now.? Here goes: 1.? Men and women are different.? I'll bet that you didn't know that.? Anyway I discussed some of the current psychological studies, etc. to make the point because 2 and 3 John are almost identical in content but 2 John is addressed to a woman and 3 John to a man.? God is actually very sophisticated and up-to-date with the latest human studies which point out that, at the extremes of a normal distribution, men are more driven by truth and women by love. This is derived from the findings that, although there are massive overlaps showing that men and women are far more similar than different (physically, emotionally, in interests, etc.), at the extremes men are more interested in things and women in people.? I'll drop it here because you probably already know this stuff, but it's important in understanding 2 and 3 John. 2.? Despite more than 1,600 years of people trying to invent clever interpretations of the "Elect Lady" to whom 2 John is addressed, it makes the most sense to assume that John is writing to his Christ-given charge, Mary.? But I've also listed four other views that are much more commonly held (for what I frankly see as sexist reasons).? So, if true, 2 John is the only book of the 66 written to a woman. Anyway, enough boring commentary from me.? Please feel to write if you have any questions or comments from perusing the notes. Blessings, Ray
On Sunday, 26 July 2020, 03:49:54 pm AEST, Mandy <mandyflynn01@...> wrote:
Hi there Ray just going through the work I missed in the last 2 Thursdays 're John I could open notes for 16th but unable to for 23rd.. I will keep trying . Looking forward to Ruth. Take care Mandy ?
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: "Ray via groups.io" <ray.sarlin@...>
Date: 26/7/20 3:28 pm (GMT+10:00)
Subject: [Special] [b4uc] U3A R09 Bible - OPTIONAL short survey @R09TNA
G'day,
In planning for a partial reopening of in-class U3A courses, tutors are completing a brief survey.? That prompted me to ask you a few questions to help plan for Term 4 whether or not it proceeds as in-person classes.? ? The survey at the location shown below has just a few multiple-choice questions.? Each question includes space for brief comments.??Please take a few minutes to complete it. Thank you for your valuable input. If you have any concerns or questions about this survey, please contact?Ray via email at?ray.sarlin@.... https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/7DQRRXY Blessings, Ray |
Ray
Replacement theology is
the premise that the “Christian Church” [whatever that means – see Note 1] has
replaced Israel in God’s plan.?