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Re: The Bible versus Scientific Evidence
开云体育Hi Ray, Carole, Christine and Peter,
?
Thankyou for your input.? A few thoughts for comment:
?
1.? Carole:? I haven’t heard of Creation Ministries. Wikipedia
does not speak kindly of them.? What “religion” or beliefs do they purport
to follow?? I am ALWAYS suspicious of US driven religious
propaganda.? There appears to be two different bodies – the one in Brisbane
and an International one.? Which one should I be investigating?? And
do they have conspiracy tendencies?? Would you please send a link
to WHICH site you refer?? Thanks.
?
2. Peter:? I have always strongly believed that evolution (including
by natural selection) DOES NOT occur outside species.? Original species may
evolve and change considerably adapting to changing environmental conditions
etc. (Galapagos Island) but a bear doesn’t change into an ape over time!?
Who would be so foolhardy to suggest that God looks like an Ape!? Yet that
is what we have been taught – that we evolved from Apes!
Original organisms could only have come from the One who created the
universe and our world – agree with your comment.
?
3. Christine:?? I have not heard of Dr John F. Ashton.?
Thank you for your suggestion.?
And no, it’s not too late to continue the fun of names – as Ray
has commented several times, Names are very significant.
?
Thanks everyone for your comments.? Please don’t stop – there are
still a lot of questions I asked!!?
?
Sincerely,
Merlene
?
? From: Christine
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: [b4uc] The Bible versus Scientific
Evidence ?
Hi Merlene
You may find the books of award winning Australian scientist, Dr John F
Ashton, helpful. His credentials are impressive.
?
His books are readily available. The ones perhaps most relevant to help
answer your query are:
Evolution Impossible, and
In Six Days ( which is a compilation of essays by PhD scientists covering
many areas of expertise and supporting a young earth outlook).
?
Carole's suggestion of Creation Ministries is good. They give short,
interesting bites but are careful to include references to aid in further
research if you are so inclined.
?
I did intend to add? comment on the fun sharing of the significance of
names that you started up. Maybe too late now!
?
Enjoy your continuing studies,
Christine ?
On Mon, 14 Sep 2020, 9:08 am Peter W,
<pwo33029@...> wrote:
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Re: The Bible versus Scientific Evidence
G'day everyone, Thanks, Merlene, for posing come interesting and challenging questions.? I'm also interested in seeing what inputs this email generates. My initial thought is to make a few simple observations, which I hope will be helpful. Twenty years is a very long time in politics and science. Bryan Sykes' "Seven (European) Daughters of Eve" are now at least ten, and a current argument in genetics is that perhaps there should be just two: Finnish and non-Finnish.? No kidding.? And, by the way, the count on "Daughters of Eve" worldwide is now up to 29 or so.? As mentioned, twenty years is a long time in science.? In the unlikely case that anyone is interested, my eldest female ancestress is Tara (mitochondrial Haplogroup T) and I am half-Finnish; hopefully, thousands of mad scientists aren't skulking about waiting to dissect me. This brings up my main caution.? Many serious scientists now disavow Darwin's Theory of Evolution, which over 150 years has failed to stand in many ways.? For example, no matter how old the earth is (and limitless time is a precondition for the theory), there's no evidence whatsoever of macro-evolution (between species) even as micro-evolution (evolution - including by natural selection - within a species) is well-proven.? After all, evolution from a molecule into a human being is scientifically impossible given all that we know today about things like, well, DNA. A related caution is that atheistic Science cannot explain life or the universe, just as Creationists cannot scientifically prove that God exists. The same sets of facts can be interpreted differently depending upon the interpreter's presuppositions and assumptions, so it's a reasonable idea to consider our own pre-suppositions. For example, one of my personal beliefs is that there is no conflict between the Bible and Science, which goes to the heart of Merlene's question. Finally, the brilliant Blaise Pascal once opined that "Reason's last step is the recognition that there are an infinite number of things which are beyond it."? Believe it or not, there is a possibility that we won't solve all of the issues that Merlene raised in this forum, but it should be fun trying. Hoping to hear from y'all, I remain Very truly yours, Ray P.S. Blessings. ??
On Sunday, 13 September 2020, 03:52:46 pm AEST, Merlene <merlene@...> wrote:
Hi Ray and all Fellow Students,
?
A couple of weeks ago I promised I would ask a question that has always
remained unanswered, seeking Ray’s and the Group’s comments.? It is very
lengthy, for which I apologise, but it is so complex a subject I couldn’t
compress it further.
?
How many times have you been faced with the situation of trying to convince people to believe the words of the Bible when the scientific evidence seems to prove otherwise – especially with regard to the Beginnings of Man. ? I am not an historian and these are very, very rough time frames.? ? 1.?????? Time in the Bible starts around 6,000 BC.? But it is well documented that there was life on earth at least 46,000 thousand years ago (Aboriginal evidence, as an example). 2.?????? The Bible states that God created the world, then animals, then man (Adam and Eve).? This fact is now under attack from the Darwinian theory;? the theory of evolution, something no one would be foolish enough to dispute. 3.?????? It is known that the Ice Age occurred about 12-12,000 years ago, causing the distinction of many animals and possibly mankind.? But the Bible puts life (our world) starting only 8,000 thousand years ago (6,000bc + 2,000ad years). 4.?????? Assuming Bible times put the age of our world around 8,000 thousand years old, this cannot be correct.? Geological evidence suggests an age of millions of years. ? My question to Ray and the Group is:? How can we reconcile the Bible with Science considering the above facts and data? ? My hypothesis 1.?????? Although the Bible says God created the World in “6” days, I believe the six days do not refer to six literal days as we understand “days” but a timeframe of Six (plus resting day of 7).? Within this timeframe animals and some form of humans existed – we are talking about LONG timeframes. 2.?????? The theory of evolution cannot be disputed, but somehow this has to be reconciled with the Bible.? See Note 3.?? 3.?????? After the Ice Age few animals survived, but there is CONSIDERABLE evidence of their existence, including some form of mankind.? And this is where I believe the Darwinian Theory of Evolution is “king”;? there were creatures that science calls Man, but I don’t believe Theory of Evolution PROVES that they WERE actual the beginnings of humans – a totally different species – Refer* 4.?????? After almost everything was wiped out during the Ice Age, is it possible that our Bible starts sometime AFTER – a new and different world was created, massaged by God.? Evolution starts with creatures in the deep (sea), then land, air, etc. to God’s creation of Man, in His image (somehow!!) ? Recently I came across The Seven Daughters of Eve by Bryan Sykes, Professor of human genetics at Oxford University, a leading world authority on DNA and human evolution.? ?In 1994 he was called in to examine the frozen remains of a man trapped in glacial ice in northern Italy, purportedly pre Ice Age. ? He took 3? hair samples a purported human? from remote Himalayan kingdom of Bhutan which were from the miogi, the Bhutanese yeti. Two of the hairs from DNA analysis, eventually were identified as hairs from a known species of bear.? The third remained a mystery. ? From an article published in 2010, he stated it’s now possible to get a very good DNA signal from a single hair.? This paper contained details of the DNA sequence from another human species, Homo neanderthalensis, the Neanderthals, widely thought to be extinct. ? He says we can trace our maternal line back 45,000 years (similar to Aboriginal belief) and starts with the first scientific evidence of the survival of apemen into modern times. ? The Seven Daughters of Eve[1] is a 2001 book by Bryan Sykes that presents the science of human mitochondrial genetics to a general audience. Sykes explains the principles of genetics and human evolution, the particularities of mitochondrial DNA, and analyses of ancient DNA to genetically link modern humans to prehistoric ancestors. Following the developments of mitochondrial genetics, Sykes traces back human migrations, discusses the "out of Africa theory" and casts serious doubt upon Thor Heyerdahl's theory of the Peruvian origin of the Polynesians, which opposed the theory of their origin in Indonesia. He also describes the use of mitochondrial DNA in identifying the remains of Emperor Nicholas II of Russia, and in assessing the genetic makeup of modern Europe. The title of the book comes from one of the principal achievements of mitochondrial genetics, which is the classification of all modern Europeans into seven groups, the mitochondrial haplogroups. Each haplogroup is defined by a set of characteristic mutations on the mitochondrial genome, and can be traced along a person's maternal line to a specific prehistoric woman. Sykes refers to these women as "clan mothers", though these women did not all live concurrently. All these women in turn shared a common maternal ancestor, the Mitochondrial Eve. ? His book goes on to explain in great detail how blood samples taken from different people from different countries over different time frames confirm his theories above. ? Sorry for the length of this email raising issues of the Bible’s account of beginnings of mankind versus scientific evidence and findings, but this is a topic which seems to me cannot ever be reconciled, in spite of all our latest technological achievements. ? Cheers, Merlene ? ?
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The Bible versus Scientific Evidence
开云体育Hi Ray and all Fellow Students,
?
A couple of weeks ago I promised I would ask a question that has always
remained unanswered, seeking Ray’s and the Group’s comments.? It is very
lengthy, for which I apologise, but it is so complex a subject I couldn’t
compress it further.
?
How many times have you been faced with the situation of trying to convince people to believe the words of the Bible when the scientific evidence seems to prove otherwise – especially with regard to the Beginnings of Man. ? I am not an historian and these are very, very rough time frames.? ? 1.?????? Time in the Bible starts around 6,000 BC.? But it is well documented that there was life on earth at least 46,000 thousand years ago (Aboriginal evidence, as an example). 2.?????? The Bible states that God created the world, then animals, then man (Adam and Eve).? This fact is now under attack from the Darwinian theory;? the theory of evolution, something no one would be foolish enough to dispute. 3.?????? It is known that the Ice Age occurred about 12-12,000 years ago, causing the distinction of many animals and possibly mankind.? But the Bible puts life (our world) starting only 8,000 thousand years ago (6,000bc + 2,000ad years). 4.?????? Assuming Bible times put the age of our world around 8,000 thousand years old, this cannot be correct.? Geological evidence suggests an age of millions of years. ? My question to Ray and the Group is:? How can we reconcile the Bible with Science considering the above facts and data? ? My hypothesis 1.?????? Although the Bible says God created the World in “6” days, I believe the six days do not refer to six literal days as we understand “days” but a timeframe of Six (plus resting day of 7).? Within this timeframe animals and some form of humans existed – we are talking about LONG timeframes. 2.?????? The theory of evolution cannot be disputed, but somehow this has to be reconciled with the Bible.? See Note 3.?? 3.?????? After the Ice Age few animals survived, but there is CONSIDERABLE evidence of their existence, including some form of mankind.? And this is where I believe the Darwinian Theory of Evolution is “king”;? there were creatures that science calls Man, but I don’t believe Theory of Evolution PROVES that they WERE actual the beginnings of humans – a totally different species – Refer* 4.?????? After almost everything was wiped out during the Ice Age, is it possible that our Bible starts sometime AFTER – a new and different world was created, massaged by God.? Evolution starts with creatures in the deep (sea), then land, air, etc. to God’s creation of Man, in His image (somehow!!) ? Recently I came across The Seven Daughters of Eve by Bryan Sykes, Professor of human genetics at Oxford University, a leading world authority on DNA and human evolution.? ?In 1994 he was called in to examine the frozen remains of a man trapped in glacial ice in northern Italy, purportedly pre Ice Age. ? He took 3? hair samples a purported human? from remote Himalayan kingdom of Bhutan which were from the miogi, the Bhutanese yeti. Two of the hairs from DNA analysis, eventually were identified as hairs from a known species of bear.? The third remained a mystery. ? From an article published in 2010, he stated it’s now possible to get a very good DNA signal from a single hair.? This paper contained details of the DNA sequence from another human species, Homo neanderthalensis, the Neanderthals, widely thought to be extinct. ? He says we can trace our maternal line back 45,000 years (similar to Aboriginal belief) and starts with the first scientific evidence of the survival of apemen into modern times. ? The Seven Daughters of Eve[1] is a 2001 book by Bryan Sykes that presents the science of human mitochondrial genetics to a general audience. Sykes explains the principles of genetics and human evolution, the particularities of mitochondrial DNA, and analyses of ancient DNA to genetically link modern humans to prehistoric ancestors. Following the developments of mitochondrial genetics, Sykes traces back human migrations, discusses the "out of Africa theory" and casts serious doubt upon Thor Heyerdahl's theory of the Peruvian origin of the Polynesians, which opposed the theory of their origin in Indonesia. He also describes the use of mitochondrial DNA in identifying the remains of Emperor Nicholas II of Russia, and in assessing the genetic makeup of modern Europe. The title of the book comes from one of the principal achievements of mitochondrial genetics, which is the classification of all modern Europeans into seven groups, the mitochondrial haplogroups. Each haplogroup is defined by a set of characteristic mutations on the mitochondrial genome, and can be traced along a person's maternal line to a specific prehistoric woman. Sykes refers to these women as "clan mothers", though these women did not all live concurrently. All these women in turn shared a common maternal ancestor, the Mitochondrial Eve. ? His book goes on to explain in great detail how blood samples taken from different people from different countries over different time frames confirm his theories above. ? Sorry for the length of this email raising issues of the Bible’s account of beginnings of mankind versus scientific evidence and findings, but this is a topic which seems to me cannot ever be reconciled, in spite of all our latest technological achievements. ? Cheers, Merlene ? ?
|
|
The Bible versus Scientific Evidence
开云体育Hi Ray and all Fellow Students,
?
A couple of weeks ago I promised I would ask a question that has always
remained unanswered, seeking Ray’s and the Group’s comments.? It is very
lengthy, for which I apologise, but it is so complex a subject I couldn’t
compress it further.
?
How many times have you been faced with the situation of trying to convince people to believe the words of the Bible when the scientific evidence seems to prove otherwise – especially with regard to the Beginnings of Man. ? I am not an historian and these are very, very rough time frames.? ? 1.?????? Time in the Bible starts around 6,000 BC.? But it is well documented that there was life on earth at least 46,000 thousand years ago (Aboriginal evidence, as an example). 2.?????? The Bible states that God created the world, then animals, then man (Adam and Eve).? This fact is now under attack from the Darwinian theory;? the theory of evolution, something no one would be foolish enough to dispute. 3.?????? It is known that the Ice Age occurred about 12-12,000 years ago, causing the distinction of many animals and possibly mankind.? But the Bible puts life (our world) starting only 8,000 thousand years ago (6,000bc + 2,000ad years). 4.?????? Assuming Bible times put the age of our world around 8,000 thousand years old, this cannot be correct.? Geological evidence suggests an age of millions of years. ? My question to Ray and the Group is:? How can we reconcile the Bible with Science considering the above facts and data? ? My hypothesis 1.?????? Although the Bible says God created the World in “6” days, I believe the six days do not refer to six literal days as we understand “days” but a timeframe of Six (plus resting day of 7).? Within this timeframe animals and some form of humans existed – we are talking about LONG timeframes. 2.?????? The theory of evolution cannot be disputed, but somehow this has to be reconciled with the Bible.? See Note 3.?? 3.?????? After the Ice Age few animals survived, but there is CONSIDERABLE evidence of their existence, including some form of mankind.? And this is where I believe the Darwinian Theory of Evolution is “king”;? there were creatures that science calls Man, but I don’t believe Theory of Evolution PROVES that they WERE actual the beginnings of humans – a totally different species – Refer* 4.?????? After almost everything was wiped out during the Ice Age, is it possible that our Bible starts sometime AFTER – a new and different world was created, massaged by God.? Evolution starts with creatures in the deep (sea), then land, air, etc. to God’s creation of Man, in His image (somehow!!) ? Recently I came across The Seven Daughters of Eve by Bryan Sykes, Professor of human genetics at Oxford University, a leading world authority on DNA and human evolution.? ?In 1994 he was called in to examine the frozen remains of a man trapped in glacial ice in northern Italy, purportedly pre Ice Age. ? He took 3? hair samples a purported human? from remote Himalayan kingdom of Bhutan which were from the miogi, the Bhutanese yeti. Two of the hairs from DNA analysis, eventually were identified as hairs from a known species of bear.? The third remained a mystery. ? From an article published in 2010, he stated it’s now possible to get a very good DNA signal from a single hair.? This paper contained details of the DNA sequence from another human species, Homo neanderthalensis, the Neanderthals, widely thought to be extinct. ? He says we can trace our maternal line back 45,000 years (similar to Aboriginal belief) and starts with the first scientific evidence of the survival of apemen into modern times. ? The Seven Daughters of Eve[1] is a 2001 book by Bryan Sykes that presents the science of human mitochondrial genetics to a general audience. Sykes explains the principles of genetics and human evolution, the particularities of mitochondrial DNA, and analyses of ancient DNA to genetically link modern humans to prehistoric ancestors. Following the developments of mitochondrial genetics, Sykes traces back human migrations, discusses the "out of Africa theory" and casts serious doubt upon Thor Heyerdahl's theory of the Peruvian origin of the Polynesians, which opposed the theory of their origin in Indonesia. He also describes the use of mitochondrial DNA in identifying the remains of Emperor Nicholas II of Russia, and in assessing the genetic makeup of modern Europe. The title of the book comes from one of the principal achievements of mitochondrial genetics, which is the classification of all modern Europeans into seven groups, the mitochondrial haplogroups. Each haplogroup is defined by a set of characteristic mutations on the mitochondrial genome, and can be traced along a person's maternal line to a specific prehistoric woman. Sykes refers to these women as "clan mothers", though these women did not all live concurrently. All these women in turn shared a common maternal ancestor, the Mitochondrial Eve. ? His book goes on to explain in great detail how blood samples taken from different people from different countries over different time frames confirm his theories above. ? Sorry for the length of this email raising issues of the Bible’s account of beginnings of mankind versus scientific evidence and findings, but this is a topic which seems to me cannot ever be reconciled, in spite of all our latest technological achievements. ? Cheers, Merlene ? ?
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The Bible versus Scientific Evidence
开云体育Hi Ray and all Fellow Students,
?
A couple of weeks ago I promised I would ask a question that has always
remained unanswered, seeking Ray’s and the Group’s comments.? It is very
lengthy, for which I apologise, but it is so complex a subject I couldn’t
compress it further.
?
How many times have you been faced with the situation of trying to convince people to believe the words of the Bible when the scientific evidence seems to prove otherwise – especially with regard to the Beginnings of Man. ? I am not an historian and these are very, very rough time frames.? ? 1.?????? Time in the Bible starts around 6,000 BC.? But it is well documented that there was life on earth at least 46,000 thousand years ago (Aboriginal evidence, as an example). 2.?????? The Bible states that God created the world, then animals, then man (Adam and Eve).? This fact is now under attack from the Darwinian theory;? the theory of evolution, something no one would be foolish enough to dispute. 3.?????? It is known that the Ice Age occurred about 12-12,000 years ago, causing the distinction of many animals and possibly mankind.? But the Bible puts life (our world) starting only 8,000 thousand years ago (6,000bc + 2,000ad years). 4.?????? Assuming Bible times put the age of our world around 8,000 thousand years old, this cannot be correct.? Geological evidence suggests an age of millions of years. ? My question to Ray and the Group is:? How can we reconcile the Bible with Science considering the above facts and data? ? My hypothesis 1.?????? Although the Bible says God created the World in “6” days, I believe the six days do not refer to six literal days as we understand “days” but a timeframe of Six (plus resting day of 7).? Within this timeframe animals and some form of humans existed – we are talking about LONG timeframes. 2.?????? The theory of evolution cannot be disputed, but somehow this has to be reconciled with the Bible.? See Note 3.?? 3.?????? After the Ice Age few animals survived, but there is CONSIDERABLE evidence of their existence, including some form of mankind.? And this is where I believe the Darwinian Theory of Evolution is “king”;? there were creatures that science calls Man, but I don’t believe Theory of Evolution PROVES that they WERE actual the beginnings of humans – a totally different species – Refer* 4.?????? After almost everything was wiped out during the Ice Age, is it possible that our Bible starts sometime AFTER – a new and different world was created, massaged by God.? Evolution starts with creatures in the deep (sea), then land, air, etc. to God’s creation of Man, in His image (somehow!!) ? Recently I came across The Seven Daughters of Eve by Bryan Sykes, Professor of human genetics at Oxford University, a leading world authority on DNA and human evolution.? ?In 1994 he was called in to examine the frozen remains of a man trapped in glacial ice in northern Italy, purportedly pre Ice Age. ? He took 3? hair samples a purported human? from remote Himalayan kingdom of Bhutan which were from the miogi, the Bhutanese yeti. Two of the hairs from DNA analysis, eventually were identified as hairs from a known species of bear.? The third remained a mystery. ? From an article published in 2010, he stated it’s now possible to get a very good DNA signal from a single hair.? This paper contained details of the DNA sequence from another human species, Homo neanderthalensis, the Neanderthals, widely thought to be extinct. ? He says we can trace our maternal line back 45,000 years (similar to Aboriginal belief) and starts with the first scientific evidence of the survival of apemen into modern times. ? The Seven Daughters of Eve[1] is a 2001 book by Bryan Sykes that presents the science of human mitochondrial genetics to a general audience. Sykes explains the principles of genetics and human evolution, the particularities of mitochondrial DNA, and analyses of ancient DNA to genetically link modern humans to prehistoric ancestors. Following the developments of mitochondrial genetics, Sykes traces back human migrations, discusses the "out of Africa theory" and casts serious doubt upon Thor Heyerdahl's theory of the Peruvian origin of the Polynesians, which opposed the theory of their origin in Indonesia. He also describes the use of mitochondrial DNA in identifying the remains of Emperor Nicholas II of Russia, and in assessing the genetic makeup of modern Europe. The title of the book comes from one of the principal achievements of mitochondrial genetics, which is the classification of all modern Europeans into seven groups, the mitochondrial haplogroups. Each haplogroup is defined by a set of characteristic mutations on the mitochondrial genome, and can be traced along a person's maternal line to a specific prehistoric woman. Sykes refers to these women as "clan mothers", though these women did not all live concurrently. All these women in turn shared a common maternal ancestor, the Mitochondrial Eve. ? His book goes on to explain in great detail how blood samples taken from different people from different countries over different time frames confirm his theories above. ? Sorry for the length of this email raising issues of the Bible’s account of beginnings of mankind versus scientific evidence and findings, but this is a topic which seems to me cannot ever be reconciled, in spite of all our latest technological achievements. ? Cheers, Merlene ? ?
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Re: Ruth and Ester videos are posted as well as an introduction to the book of Ecclesiastes
Hi Peggy, Apologies for not making the point that the website is at?, a secure website. If you don't wish to download large video files from b4uc.xyz, the two videos can also be played directly from:
The difference is that the video download files are yours permanently, while there is no guarantee how long the soundslides links will remain active as it is a subscription website (which I have subscribed to for some eight years so far). Thanks for your support. Blessings, Ray?? On Sunday, 6 September 2020, 04:03:36 pm AEST, Peggy Fuchs via groups.io <peggy4110@...> wrote: Where is the website??? Peggy FUCHS
On Sunday, 6 September 2020, 04:01:19 pm AEST, Ray via groups.io <ray.sarlin@...> wrote:
G'day all, The mpeg-4 videos for Ruth and Esther are now posted on the website, and all slide sets are posted up to date as well. If you check, you may see something already posted for next session on Ecclesiastes.? While searching my computer I came across an Ecclesiastes calendar for 9 years ago that I gave as a gift to the group that I facilitated in Batemans Bay, NSW.? Quick as a flash, I updated it to 2021 and posted it for you if you are interested.? The reason for posting it now rather than sending it for Christmas or whatever is that it contains a detailed outline of Ecclesiastes and some other stuff that may be of interest.? Although at first glance, Ecclesiastes seems both intimidating and depressing, but in truth it is very uplifting and quite frankly practical.? It's just a bit weird. By the way, similar to Ruth and Esther, Ecclesiastes is one of the five Old Testament books read in the synagogue on certain Jewish feast days.? It is read at the highly symbolic seven-day* feast called Sukkot (a.k.a. the Feast of Tabernacles or the Feast of Booths (sukkah)), the final feast date of the Hebrew calendar.? Many Christian congregations celebrate this feast in some way, and it's coming up next month. Just a reminder that U3A has opened for enrolments (alas, all by Zoom) for Term 4 of 2020.? I noticed that some of you have already signed up.? Thank you! Blessings, Ray *NOTE: In the opposite fashion to Purim (book of Esther) which celebrates two days in Jerusalem and 1 day everywhere else ("the diaspora"), Sukkot is a 7-day festival in Israel and tacks an extra day on (8 days total) in the diaspora.? It's almost impossible to keep up with all their rules; but at least they're much more stable than those in Islam where verses in the Quran can be made obsolete by later verses or rules can be "updated" at any time through various means (Quran Surah 2:106 states, "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but we substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?") |
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Ruth and Ester videos are posted as well as an introduction to the book of Ecclesiastes
G'day all,
The mpeg-4 videos for Ruth and Esther are now posted on the website, and all slide sets are posted up to date as well. If you check, you may see something already posted for next session on Ecclesiastes.? While searching my computer I came across an Ecclesiastes calendar for 9 years ago that I gave as a gift to the group that I facilitated in Batemans Bay, NSW.? Quick as a flash, I updated it to 2021 and posted it for you if you are interested.? The reason for posting it now rather than sending it for Christmas or whatever is that it contains a detailed outline of Ecclesiastes and some other stuff that may be of interest.? Although at first glance, Ecclesiastes seems both intimidating and depressing, but in truth it is very uplifting and quite frankly practical.? It's just a bit weird. By the way, similar to Ruth and Esther, Ecclesiastes is one of the five Old Testament books read in the synagogue on certain Jewish feast days.? It is read at the highly symbolic seven-day* feast called Sukkot (a.k.a. the Feast of Tabernacles or the Feast of Booths (sukkah)), the final feast date of the Hebrew calendar.? Many Christian congregations celebrate this feast in some way, and it's coming up next month. Just a reminder that U3A has opened for enrolments (alas, all by Zoom) for Term 4 of 2020.? I noticed that some of you have already signed up.? Thank you! Blessings, Ray *NOTE: In the opposite fashion to Purim (book of Esther) which celebrates two days in Jerusalem and 1 day everywhere else ("the diaspora"), Sukkot is a 7-day festival in Israel and tacks an extra day on (8 days total) in the diaspora.? It's almost impossible to keep up with all their rules; but at least they're much more stable than those in Islam where verses in the Quran can be made obsolete by later verses or rules can be "updated" at any time through various means (Quran Surah 2:106 states, "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but we substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?") |
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U3A R09 A question from last Thursday's session.
#esther
G'day all, Merlene sent me an email stating
that as our Thursday session met its inglorious end, she was asking: “you
quoted that some of the people became Jews following the King’s second
decree.? What was meant by that phrase?? Did they accept the Jewish
faith, or become – in today’s words – naturalised?”
Here goes: The Hebrew word used ??????y?had,?yaw-had' means to Judaize, i.e. become Jewish:—become
Jews.? Strong’s Lexicon actually
defines H5307 as, “to become a Jew (in fact or in fraud), become Judaised.”
Esther 8:17 states: “And in every province and city, wherever the king’s command and decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a holiday.?Then many of the people of the land became Jews, because fear of the Jews fell upon them.” This
certainly seems to imply that while some of the Gentiles converted from
paganism to Judaism to join the party ( Others may have converted for legitimate reasons, but we don’t know that from the text.? Proselytes renounced idolatry and became worshippers of God throughout the Bible.? Surely some would have waited “for such a time as this.” It’s interesting how different Bible commentators interpret this verse. For some, it is seen as wholesale repentance of those who formerly persecuted the Jews, something that should be met with joy and a hearty welcome.? For others, the conversion was mere pretense.? Still others note that by changing a single Hebrew letter slightly, the term becomes “the people united with the Jews”.? Others note that the attacks of Satan tend to drive people to the Church. What are we to make of all this? Well, if nothing else, it helps underscore why our course tries to focus on what the text actually says and ignore various dogmas.? The text suggests that the Jewish author (probably Mordecai) knew that God wasn’t fooled.? Other Hebrew words could have been used if the (divine?) author intended a specific message.? They weren’t. It
usually best to take the view that God means what He says and says what He
means. Blessings, Ray
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Re: Second Session on Esther
#esther
On Thursday, 20 August 2020, 01:30:22 pm AEST, Mandy <mandyflynn01@...> wrote: Hi there Ray and fellow students as always thank you Ray for a thought provoking class, you said? some scholars wondered why this book was included in the? Bible as there is no reference to God. Does this mean that all the books of the Bible
were written independently and someone???? decided to join all these books in one book being the Bible.If so there could be other interesting books not included. Take care everyone Mandy?
Hi Mandy and everybody, There are two questions here, a short one and a great big one.? I’ll answer the short question first with a lengthy answer and then address the long one with a short answer. WHY
DID/DO SOME RELIGIOUS PEOPLE (NOT SCHOLARS) DISLIKE “ESTHER”?
WERE
ALL BOOKS WRITTEN INDEPENDENTLY AND SOMEONE DECIDED TO JOIN THEM? TOGETHER?
Thanks for another great question, Mandy. Blessings, Ray
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Re: Second Session on Esther
#esther
Mandy
开云体育Hi there Ray and fellow students as always thank you Ray for a thought provoking class, you said? some scholars wondered why this book was included in? the? Bible as there is no reference to God. Does this mean that all the books of the Bible
were written independently and someone???? decided to join all these books in one book being the Bible.If so there could be other interesting books not included. Take care everyone Mandy?
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: "Ray via groups.io" <ray.sarlin@...>
Date: 20/8/20 12:45 pm (GMT+10:00)
Subject: [b4uc] Disconnect of Second Session on Esther #Esther
G'day all,
That was very strange having Zoom kick me out when I mentioned Marco Polo.?
 ?
?I don't know whether it was an electronics glitch or an algorithm disconnect.My point was that "The?Adventures of Marco Polo" provides rare insight into the Asia of Kublai Khan in the 13th century
(1271-1295) and describes a very different world than the one that Westerners knew then or know now. The book of Esther brings to mind some of his vivid descriptions of the many cultures that he experienced.
Fortunately, we had already finished through Chapter 8, which was actually a chapter further than I had planned.? I do apologise for the abrupt ending, but nearly all of you had (wisely) hung up by the time that
I was able to re-enter the session.
Some of you may have questions about this exciting tale.? As always, I'm more than happy to receive your input either by reply to this email or privately.
See you next week to finish the story and do some analysis.
Blessings,
Ray
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Disconnect of Second Session on Esther
#esther
G'day all, That was very strange having Zoom kick me out when I mentioned Marco Polo.? ? ?I don't know whether it was an electronics glitch or an algorithm disconnect.My point was that "The?Adventures of Marco Polo" provides rare insight into the Asia of Kublai Khan in the 13th century (1271-1295) and describes a very different world than the one that Westerners knew then or know now. The book of Esther brings to mind some of his vivid descriptions of the many cultures that he experienced. Fortunately, we had already finished through Chapter 8, which was actually a chapter further than I had planned.? I do apologise for the abrupt ending, but nearly all of you had (wisely) hung up by the time that I was able to re-enter the session. Some of you may have questions about this exciting tale.? As always, I'm more than happy to receive your input either by reply to this email or privately. See you next week to finish the story and do some analysis. Blessings, Ray |
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Re: Names and their Meanings - Something Lighthearted!
Hi Merlene,? I too chose names for my 2 daughters? after first checking their meanings in?the trusty baby name book/ booklets? available in South Africa at that time = no internet or google . ?Tanya = Russian Princess &? Ja'nine(French version )?=? ?Gift from God ? Per Google? today :- Tanya meaning Russian Princess is Slavic derivative of Tatiana,?? and Aramaic meaning = it was taught is Baraita,? strangely coincidental? as Tanya is a gradies teacher for special? needs children , Tanya is also? considered Oral Torah of Hasidism? whatever that means , another? Zimbabween meaning from Shona? ?origin =" we have been comforted."? ?Janine = emotional but tough???? Yes Janine is quite emotional but actually very soft and sensitive.? English Origins = diminutive of Jane - feminized version of John? actually a surprise as my Grandfathers name was Giovanni = John in English. . Have a great week.? See you at R09 Zoom.?? Linda?? ?
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Re: Names and their Meanings - Something Lighthearted!
Hi Bill, Chuckle. Did you know that Anna Pavlova visited the Navajo Reservation in the 1920s before her famous visit Down Under?? An enterprising squaw concocted a special dessert in her honor, beating some egg whites until soft peaks formed, adding sugar while beating until the mixture was glossy, and then sifting in cornflower, folding in vinegar, and cooking it over a hot fire for an hour.? The resulting concoction was a real treat, so everyone added ketchup and salt and called it squaw bread.? The word is that Ms. Pavlova loved it so much that she took the recipe with her.? People quickly forgot Ms. Pavlova because she had difficulty holding herself back and broke ranks during the traditional squaw dance, but squaw bread remains a reservation favourite to this day. Blessings, Ray
On Friday, 14 August 2020, 07:35:17 pm AEST, Bill Nichols <aerial073@...> wrote:
Ray: ? I can relate another story about an obscure Navajo chief with the unlikely name of Shortcake. Despite his name he proved to be a very brave warrior chief. When he died on the reservation after WW2, the US Indian Agency on behalf of the government offered his wife to bury Shortcake at the expense of the government; but his wife declined, saying: “No, squaw bury Shortcake”; which over time has proven to be a statement of independence, defiance and eventually a very delicious desert. ---Anon. ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Ray via groups.io
Sent: Friday, 14 August 2020 6:40 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [b4uc] Names and their Meanings - Something Lighthearted! ? Hi Mandy, Merlene, and everyone. ? Speaking of names... I was responding to an email from my sister Polly Anne who lives on the Navajo Reservation which commented on the minuscule amount of Asian in my DNA.? She asked, tongue in cheek, "Can we say we are people of colour because we are Asian?? Dat's my yoke.? Do you remember what [our Finnish paternal grandmother] Anni used to say "It toook me looong time to learn to said JJJam [pronounced yam], and den you come up wit Yelly." ? My sister's name means one who is excessively optimistic, which doesn't suit her at all.? She got the name as a hand-me-down from the nickname of our maternal grandmother Selma, which means "helmet of God" or "protected by God"; a no-nonsense pioneer one-room schoolteacher whose name fit like a glove. ? You are probably aware that I tend to write lengthy replies, but some of you may be able to relate this one to our study of Esther. ? Anyway, I answered Polly's jocular question by displaying my complete lack of humour: "The maternal ancestry (mitochondrial DNA or mtDNA) shows nothing from Asia at all, but lists one match (out of over 6,000) as 'Native American.'? I haven't a clue how that got there, because Aili [Polly's daughter] doesn't show up in the database.? There are some Swedish/Norweigian hereditary matches with Spanish surnames Jimenez, Martinez, Pediera, and Carranza as well as a wildcard Nezamutdinov thrown in for good measure.? Mr. Carranza has a great grandmother with the interesting name 'Nannie Humble.'? Anyway, chalk this up as a great mystery, but it DOES mean that we have more Native American blood in us than does Fauxcohantus Elizabeth Warren; somewhere there is AT LEAST one such relative." ? Then I had a great idea, which included reflection on the meanings of names: ? "You know, Polly, what you COULD do if you were interested would be to document what you remember about your nannie in Mescalero [New Mexico, capital of the Mescalero Apache Reservation where we lived until I was 6 years old], who I seem to remember was Geronimo's youngest wife.? Did you know that Geronimo's birth name was Goyakla ("to yawn").? No one seems to know for certain when or where he got the name Geronimo or what it means.? The best tradition seems to be that he developed his life-long hatred of Mexicans when as a young warrior his wife and three babies were slaughtered by Mexican Colonel Jose Maria Carrasco of Sonora while he was away raiding.? This resulted in his legendary no-holds-barred loathing of Mexicans which manifest itself in an almost demonic super-human energy when battling them.? Apparently, the story goes, some Mexican survivors heard their peers who were being slaughtered scream "Geronimo" and that became his name.? The thought is that they were crying out the name of St. Jerome in their terror and anguish (perhaps like "Jerome, Noooo!"). ? "One of Geronimo's nine wives was Mescalero Apache, Ih-tedda, and he permitted her to return from his captivity in Fort Sill, Oklahoma to Mescalero with their two children Robbie and Lena, his only known surviving children.? However, he had at least two wives after her, Sousche (married 25 Dec 1905) and Azul (1850-1934).? ? "Per the internet, Harlan Geronimo (b. 1947) of Mescalero is Geronimo's great-grandson by Geronimo's wife "Kate", who died in 1954.? None of Geronimo's nine wives had an Indian name that sounds anything like "Kate", so my guess would be that Ih-tedda took on the name Kate as an English name.? That would make Harlan the grandson of either Robert or Lena.? Lena had a daughter Falling Cloud Geronimo who married Nightwolf Stormcloud, a grandson of Chief Joseph [another very famous Indian chief who fought the U.S. Army but escaped into Canada].? Their son married a daughter of David and Dorothy McKinney but died without issue.? That would seem to make Robert (1894-1966) the grandfather of Harlan.? He had a son Robert L. Geronimo Jr. (1931- ) with one of his three wives/partners Juanita Rodriguez (1902-1939) and also another son Albert (b. c.1939- ).? So that's it from a cursory search." ? So that's it.? I rather like the name "Nightwolf" but would have a little trouble with a wife named Falling Cloud Stormcloud.? Still, I guess that's a bit better than being named Cumulonimbus, the English equivalent of Stormcloud. ? By the way, I sent my sister a photograph of Geronimo with Ih-tedda, as well as one of Lena and one of Robert.? They were all extremely handsome and distinguished-looking people.? ? If you read this far, you are now party to knowledge that very few in this world possess.? Use it wisely. ? Blessings, ? Ray ? ? On Friday, 14 August 2020, 04:41:20 pm AEST, Mandy <mandyflynn01@...> wrote: ? ? Hi there Marlene I have a son David also and I did name him because of the meaning of the name? and Bible reference. Small world!! My daughter is Lisa shory? name for Elizabeth.? See you next week. Take care Mandy ? ? ? Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. ? ? ? -------- Original message -------- From: Merlene <merlene@...> Date: 13/8/20 3:08 pm (GMT+10:00) Subject: [b4uc] Names and their Meanings - Something Lighthearted! ? Hi Ray and the Group, ? Once again, thank you Ray for a very informative session this morning.? A lot of interesting history, including wars and names (again!). ? During the last couple of weeks several email references have been made to names and their meanings – thank you to those who sent them through this Group.? Following on that thought, together with this morning’s class, how many of you considered the meanings of names when naming your own children??? I most certainly did. ? I was unable to have children for a couple of medical reasons.? Notwithstanding that, for a couple of years I prayed every day for a son, knowing it would take a miracle.? And it was!? and unbelievable as it was at the time, I was given a son.? I called him David – not that I particularly liked the name – it was the MEANING – “Beloved”.? He was never to be called Dave or Davey, which he never was to this day! His second Christian name was that of his father. ? When my second son was born – on first glance I named him “Rod” – well actually “Rodney” for when he was a boy, knowing it would be shortened to Rod when he was adult.? And Rod has always been a “rod and staff” for me.? No prizes for guessing his second Christian name:? “John” – with all its Biblical inferences. ? The third son was named Stephen (for similar reasons as above) His second Christian name was that of my father. ? My own name:? Both my parents continually told me they wanted a boy, expected a boy, and couldn’t accept the fact I was a girl when I popped out.? They had long chosen a name for me “Alan” which I have only now looked up the meaning – “rock, or harmony”.? Funny, as I have always strived for harmony in all relationships!? Both parents told me I was nameless for more than a week before they could decide on a name for a Girl! ? I’m sure some of the group will have equally interesting stories to tell how you were named and whether or not you named your children for any special meaning or reason.? Anyone like to share? ? Cheers, Merlene ? ? From: Ray via groups.io Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [b4uc] Invitation to U3A R09 What the Bible is about - a non-religious study of the Bible #Term3 #Esther ? ? |
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Re: Names and their Meanings - Something Lighthearted!
Bill Nichols
开云体育Ray: ? I can relate another story about an obscure Navajo chief with the unlikely name of Shortcake. Despite his name he proved to be a very brave warrior chief. When he died on the reservation after WW2, the US Indian Agency on behalf of the government offered his wife to bury Shortcake at the expense of the government; but his wife declined, saying: “No, squaw bury Shortcake”; which over time has proven to be a statement of independence, defiance and eventually a very delicious desert. ---Anon. ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Ray via groups.io
Sent: Friday, 14 August 2020 6:40 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [b4uc] Names and their Meanings - Something Lighthearted! ? Hi Mandy, Merlene, and everyone. ? Speaking of names... I was responding to an email from my sister Polly Anne who lives on the Navajo Reservation which commented on the minuscule amount of Asian in my DNA.? She asked, tongue in cheek, "Can we say we are people of colour because we are Asian?? Dat's my yoke.? Do you remember what [our Finnish paternal grandmother] Anni used to say "It toook me looong time to learn to said JJJam [pronounced yam], and den you come up wit Yelly." ? My sister's name means one who is excessively optimistic, which doesn't suit her at all.? She got the name as a hand-me-down from the nickname of our maternal grandmother Selma, which means "helmet of God" or "protected by God"; a no-nonsense pioneer one-room schoolteacher whose name fit like a glove. ? You are probably aware that I tend to write lengthy replies, but some of you may be able to relate this one to our study of Esther. ? Anyway, I answered Polly's jocular question by displaying my complete lack of humour: "The maternal ancestry (mitochondrial DNA or mtDNA) shows nothing from Asia at all, but lists one match (out of over 6,000) as 'Native American.'? I haven't a clue how that got there, because Aili [Polly's daughter] doesn't show up in the database.? There are some Swedish/Norweigian hereditary matches with Spanish surnames Jimenez, Martinez, Pediera, and Carranza as well as a wildcard Nezamutdinov thrown in for good measure.? Mr. Carranza has a great grandmother with the interesting name 'Nannie Humble.'? Anyway, chalk this up as a great mystery, but it DOES mean that we have more Native American blood in us than does Fauxcohantus Elizabeth Warren; somewhere there is AT LEAST one such relative." ? Then I had a great idea, which included reflection on the meanings of names: ? "You know, Polly, what you COULD do if you were interested would be to document what you remember about your nannie in Mescalero [New Mexico, capital of the Mescalero Apache Reservation where we lived until I was 6 years old], who I seem to remember was Geronimo's youngest wife.? Did you know that Geronimo's birth name was Goyakla ("to yawn").? No one seems to know for certain when or where he got the name Geronimo or what it means.? The best tradition seems to be that he developed his life-long hatred of Mexicans when as a young warrior his wife and three babies were slaughtered by Mexican Colonel Jose Maria Carrasco of Sonora while he was away raiding.? This resulted in his legendary no-holds-barred loathing of Mexicans which manifest itself in an almost demonic super-human energy when battling them.? Apparently, the story goes, some Mexican survivors heard their peers who were being slaughtered scream "Geronimo" and that became his name.? The thought is that they were crying out the name of St. Jerome in their terror and anguish (perhaps like "Jerome, Noooo!"). ? "One of Geronimo's nine wives was Mescalero Apache, Ih-tedda, and he permitted her to return from his captivity in Fort Sill, Oklahoma to Mescalero with their two children Robbie and Lena, his only known surviving children.? However, he had at least two wives after her, Sousche (married 25 Dec 1905) and Azul (1850-1934).? ? "Per the internet, Harlan Geronimo (b. 1947) of Mescalero is Geronimo's great-grandson by Geronimo's wife "Kate", who died in 1954.? None of Geronimo's nine wives had an Indian name that sounds anything like "Kate", so my guess would be that Ih-tedda took on the name Kate as an English name.? That would make Harlan the grandson of either Robert or Lena.? Lena had a daughter Falling Cloud Geronimo who married Nightwolf Stormcloud, a grandson of Chief Joseph [another very famous Indian chief who fought the U.S. Army but escaped into Canada].? Their son married a daughter of David and Dorothy McKinney but died without issue.? That would seem to make Robert (1894-1966) the grandfather of Harlan.? He had a son Robert L. Geronimo Jr. (1931- ) with one of his three wives/partners Juanita Rodriguez (1902-1939) and also another son Albert (b. c.1939- ).? So that's it from a cursory search." ? So that's it.? I rather like the name "Nightwolf" but would have a little trouble with a wife named Falling Cloud Stormcloud.? Still, I guess that's a bit better than being named Cumulonimbus, the English equivalent of Stormcloud. ? By the way, I sent my sister a photograph of Geronimo with Ih-tedda, as well as one of Lena and one of Robert.? They were all extremely handsome and distinguished-looking people.? ? If you read this far, you are now party to knowledge that very few in this world possess.? Use it wisely. ? Blessings, ? Ray ? ? On Friday, 14 August 2020, 04:41:20 pm AEST, Mandy <mandyflynn01@...> wrote: ? ? Hi there Marlene I have a son David also and I did name him because of the meaning of the name? and Bible reference. Small world!! My daughter is Lisa shory? name for Elizabeth.? See you next week. Take care Mandy ? ? ? Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. ? ? ? -------- Original message -------- From: Merlene <merlene@...> Date: 13/8/20 3:08 pm (GMT+10:00) Subject: [b4uc] Names and their Meanings - Something Lighthearted! ? Hi Ray and the Group, ? Once again, thank you Ray for a very informative session this morning.? A lot of interesting history, including wars and names (again!). ? During the last couple of weeks several email references have been made to names and their meanings – thank you to those who sent them through this Group.? Following on that thought, together with this morning’s class, how many of you considered the meanings of names when naming your own children??? I most certainly did. ? I was unable to have children for a couple of medical reasons.? Notwithstanding that, for a couple of years I prayed every day for a son, knowing it would take a miracle.? And it was!? and unbelievable as it was at the time, I was given a son.? I called him David – not that I particularly liked the name – it was the MEANING – “Beloved”.? He was never to be called Dave or Davey, which he never was to this day! His second Christian name was that of his father. ? When my second son was born – on first glance I named him “Rod” – well actually “Rodney” for when he was a boy, knowing it would be shortened to Rod when he was adult.? And Rod has always been a “rod and staff” for me.? No prizes for guessing his second Christian name:? “John” – with all its Biblical inferences. ? The third son was named Stephen (for similar reasons as above) His second Christian name was that of my father. ? My own name:? Both my parents continually told me they wanted a boy, expected a boy, and couldn’t accept the fact I was a girl when I popped out.? They had long chosen a name for me “Alan” which I have only now looked up the meaning – “rock, or harmony”.? Funny, as I have always strived for harmony in all relationships!? Both parents told me I was nameless for more than a week before they could decide on a name for a Girl! ? I’m sure some of the group will have equally interesting stories to tell how you were named and whether or not you named your children for any special meaning or reason.? Anyone like to share? ? Cheers, Merlene ? ? From: Ray via groups.io Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [b4uc] Invitation to U3A R09 What the Bible is about - a non-religious study of the Bible #Term3 #Esther ? ? |
Merlene
Ray
), others did so out of fear, possibly
of Jewish reprisals or the heavy hand of the State.? These reasons seem to be fraudulent.? Fear of the Jews is not the same as fear of
the God of the Jews.