On Aug 29, 2024, at 1:52?PM, Lin Duke <dml5481@...> wrote:

Julie

?

All the marriages you mention to Ann ELLIS (1835), Mary WESTERMAN (1843) Esther BROWN (1853),? Joseph made a mark. and occupations stubber and clothier for Joseph and father Jonathan for the last two.

?

The other Joseph signed his name on his 1853 marriage, occupation shoemaker, father Joseph.

?

Have you obtained Ann's 1841 death certificate to check Joseph's occupation?

?

?

Lin

On Aug 25, 2024, at 9:58?PM, John Hanson <john.hanson@...> wrote:

Julie

Just because Joseph says that his father was Jonathan doesn’t mean to say that it was.?
At that time, you didn’t need to provide any proof
He would simply have been asked – who was your father – he might have just answered “Jonathan” and the clerk assumed Bentley
Also, there is a possibility that if he was illegitimate and his mother married just after he was born to a Jonathan Bentley then he was possibly brought up thinking that his father the Jonathan.

Whilst he died have been buried in the Wesleyan cemetery, he is not likely to have been a Wesleyan in 1853 when he married, or he would not have married by Banns

There never was a legal requirement for non-conformist registers to be deposited so many may still be with the church – but which church at the time.
Also, they could have been kept by the person performing which ever service and taking with him to the next church!

CAN I suspect is going to point you more in the right direction?

The problem then might be trying to find the paper trail to match the DNA

?

Regards

John Hanson FSG?

Researching the Halstead/Holstead/Alstead names

Researcher, the Halsted Trust -?

Research website -?

And my own study of FOSKER

?

From:?[email protected]?<[email protected]>?On Behalf Of?Julie Kane via?
Sent:?Sunday, August 25, 2024 6:18 PM
To:?[email protected]
Subject:?[yorksgen] Joseph BENTLEY 1814-1874

?

I'm trying to determine who the parents of Joseph BENTLEY (1814-1874) are. He was buried at Morley Wesleyan 13 Mar 1874.

?

He married Ann ELLIS 1 Feb 1835 in Batley and had two children. She died in 1841. He married Mary WESTERMAN (1820-1851) in 1843, had two children and Esther BROWN (1825-1905) in 1853 and had six more children. In the 1851 census he is married to Mary with their daughter and son and his two children from his marriage with Ann. Lidian (Lydia Ann BENTLEY) is my ancestor.

?

I've always thought that Joseph's parents were Jonathan BENTLEY (1787-1859) who married Mary RHODES 14 Feb 1806 in Batley. Certainly his marriages to both Mary WESTERMAN and Esther BROWN indicate Jonathan being his father.?

?

What makes me wonder if this is wrong is not having dna matches with others further back when there should be a match. I must have made an error somewhere.

?

There are many other families with parents Joseph BENTLEY and Martha FIELD but I'm the only one with Jonathan and Mary. I would appreciate some other eyes looking at this and telling me what they think.

?

Julie Kane

?

Margaret

You will not find a baptism register entry like that for Thomas born in 1756 – likely to have father but not the mother

?

That register in 1782 is in format known as “Dade registers” common in the North Yorkshire/Durham area between 1780 and 1812.

?

Regards

John Hanson FSG

?

?

On 25 Aug 2024, at 1:28?PM, Maureen Farrer via groups.io <maureenfarrer71@...> wrote:

?Chris I agree with you it is probably as mistake by the transcriber.
I tried to get the digital copy but said unavailable so will try again in a day as that happened a few days go for another death certificate and then when I retried a few days later I could get it, if not will get the pdf for ?8. Our exchange rate is so bad.
Do you think that her children wouldn’t be registered in the deaths or maybe went their own way.
Was interesting to read about the Friends Burial ground. Shame there is no headstones left. Came across a short YouTube on it.

Agains thanks for your invaluable information

Maureen

On 25 Aug 2024, at 5:10?AM, Chris Pitt Lewis via groups.io
<chris@...> wrote:

Maureen



I am lucky enough to have many years of the Annual Monitor on my
bookshelves so I can check the original printed copy. It says Widow of
John Farrar. If FMP's transcript says Thomas, it must be a mistake by the
transcriber.



If you want to double check, there should be an original "burial note" in
the Brighouse MM records in Leeds University Library which would be the
source of the Annual Monitor entry. Easier to obtain, however, would be a
digital copy of her civil death registration (more detail than the index
entry I quoted), which you should be able to order for 3 pounds starting
at the index search page here (you may need to register on the site
first):





Chris Pitt Lewis

On 24/08/2024 02:37, Maureen Farrer wrote:

Hi Chris,

I found the record for Hannah’s death in the Quaker Monitor Annual, but
when you look on FMP script of the record it says widow of Thomas Farrar,
but in the Monitor it
says John Farrar ?

On 25 Aug 2024, at 5:10?AM, Chris Pitt Lewis via groups.io <chris@...> wrote:

Maureen

I am lucky enough to have many years of the Annual Monitor on my bookshelves so I can check the original printed copy. It says Widow of John Farrar. If FMP's transcript says Thomas, it must be a mistake by the transcriber.

If you want to double check, there should be an original "burial note" in the Brighouse MM records in Leeds University Library which would be the source of the Annual Monitor entry. Easier to obtain, however, would be a digital copy of her civil death registration (more detail than the index entry I quoted), which you should be able to order for 3 pounds starting at the index search page here (you may need to register on the site first):

Chris Pitt Lewis

On 24/08/2024 02:37, Maureen Farrer wrote:

Hi Chris,

?

I found the record for Hannah’s death in the Quaker Monitor Annual, but when you look on FMP script of the record it says widow of Thomas Farrar, but in the Monitor it

says John Farrar ?

?

Hi Chris,

I found the record for Hannah’s death in the Quaker Monitor Annual, but when you look on FMP script of the record it says widow of Thomas Farrar, but in the Monitor it

says John Farrar ?

Maureen

On 23 Aug 2024, at 8:34?PM, Chris Pitt Lewis via groups.io <chris@...> wrote:

There is a death on 12 August 1854 which might be hers:

GRO index: Hannah Farrar, 82, September Quarter 1854, Bradford and North Bierley RD 9b 60.

Despite the age discrepancy, this must be the same person as the following entry in the Annual Monitor (see below) 1855, page 47:
"Hannah Farrar, Bradford, [age] 86, [date of death] 8mo 12 1854, Widow of John Farrar".

To summarise the availability of Quaker (Society of Friends) records in England and Wales:

Almost all Quaker registers of births, marriages and burials up to 1837 (which are mostly very well kept and informative, though there are gaps in some meetings) were surrendered to the Registrar General in 1841, and a few more in 1857, like other non-conformist registers. The originals are now in the National Archives, but digital images are available and can be searched on Ancestry, FindMyPast and TheGenealogist websites.

Before they surrendered them, Quakers made a "Digest", essentially a detailed tabular summary, of the entries. Before the originals were put on line earlier this century, these digests were the usual way of accessing the registers, but they are now largely superceded.? What you found listed in West Yorkshire Archives is, I think, a copy of the Digest relating to the area of Pontefract Monthly Meeting, or possibly the whole of Yorkshire. It is very unlikely to tell you anything that you will not find on one of the 3 websites mentioned.

After the introduction of civil registration in 1837, Quakers continued to keep birth marriage and burial records. For marriages, they continued, as before 1837, to be able to legally celebrate marriages in their meetings, but their registers were now part of civil registration system - the Meeting's registrar made quarterly returns to the local Superintendent registrar, so the marriages will be in the GRO indexes. They regarded the civil system as fulfilling their requirement to register births and deaths. However, they continued to keep birth and burial "notes" for the purpose of keeping their membership records up to date, but ceased to do this in the mid 20th century, except for the purpose of recording burials in their burial grounds.? These post 1837 records are held with monthly meeting records, usually in a relevant county record office, though those for most of Yorkshire (including Bradford) are in the Brotherton Library at the University of Leeds. Very few of these records are online. There is also a national digest of post 1837 births marriages and burials held at Friends House Library in London - this is not online.

For Quaker deaths 1813 to 1920 there is a wonderful publication called the "Annual Monitor", recording deaths of Friends in the previous year. It is pretty much comprehensive from about 1840 onwards, but only records those who were in formal membership of the Society of Friends when they died. You can search it online on FindMyPast in a collection called "Quaker Deaths 1810-1918".

The marriage of John and Hannah took place in Ilkley Parish Church. If Hannah was a Quaker at the time, she will have been "disowned", that is, deprived of her formal membership of the Society of Friends, as aresult. There would be a record of this in the Minutes of the Monthly Meeting to which she belonged, which would have been Knaresborough MM, in the months after the marriage. These minutes are also in the Brotherton Library in the University of Leeds. Being dosowned did not prevent her continuing to attend Quaker meetings for worship, if she wanted to. This is what probably happened, as the births of the children were registered by Brighouse MM (which included Bradford). The birth note for the eldest (Ann) indeed says "Parents not in Membership" - I have not checked the others. You could also check whether the burial note of John states that he? was not a member. It is possible that Hannah was subsequently readmitted to membership if it is her death that is recorded in the Annual Membership. The record of this will be in the Minutes of Brighouse MM but the quickest way to find out when would be to look at the List of Members of Brighouse MM for 1839-54. Also in Leeds University library - the (possibly out of date) reference I have for the list is CH M 2.

Hope this helps

Chris Pitt Lewis

On 23/08/2024 05:30, Maureen Farrer wrote:

Yes unfortunately no death for her. Have written off to Leeds University Library to see what they could do.

On 23 Aug 2024, at 5:04?AM, Lin Duke via groups.io <dml5481@...> wrote:

Hannah's birth in 1771:

?

John and Hannah's marriage - All Saints, Ilkley 1798 (v faint image)

?

Transcript of Marriage Licence

?

Bishop's Transcript image of marriage entry

?

Lin

?

On Wed, Aug 21, 2024 at 08:19 PM, Maureen Farrer wrote:

Hi listers,

?

I live in Australia and would like to search the??registers for births (1641-1837), marriages (1650-1836), and deaths (1656-1837). for

the Brighouse Quakers, but as they are held in West Yorkshire archives, makes it impossible for me to search.

I am interested in finding a Hannah HOLMES born in 1771 to Joseph and Magdalene. ?She married John FARRER in 1798 in Ilkley but

not sure where it took place. I have all their children and her husband death being registered in Bradford Quakers.

On 23 Aug 2024, at 8:34?PM, Chris Pitt Lewis via groups.io <chris@...> wrote:

There is a death on 12 August 1854 which might be hers:

GRO index: Hannah Farrar, 82, September Quarter 1854, Bradford and North Bierley RD 9b 60.

Despite the age discrepancy, this must be the same person as the following entry in the Annual Monitor (see below) 1855, page 47:
"Hannah Farrar, Bradford, [age] 86, [date of death] 8mo 12 1854, Widow of John Farrar".

To summarise the availability of Quaker (Society of Friends) records in England and Wales:

Almost all Quaker registers of births, marriages and burials up to 1837 (which are mostly very well kept and informative, though there are gaps in some meetings) were surrendered to the Registrar General in 1841, and a few more in 1857, like other non-conformist registers. The originals are now in the National Archives, but digital images are available and can be searched on Ancestry, FindMyPast and TheGenealogist websites.

Before they surrendered them, Quakers made a "Digest", essentially a detailed tabular summary, of the entries. Before the originals were put on line earlier this century, these digests were the usual way of accessing the registers, but they are now largely superceded.? What you found listed in West Yorkshire Archives is, I think, a copy of the Digest relating to the area of Pontefract Monthly Meeting, or possibly the whole of Yorkshire. It is very unlikely to tell you anything that you will not find on one of the 3 websites mentioned.

After the introduction of civil registration in 1837, Quakers continued to keep birth marriage and burial records. For marriages, they continued, as before 1837, to be able to legally celebrate marriages in their meetings, but their registers were now part of civil registration system - the Meeting's registrar made quarterly returns to the local Superintendent registrar, so the marriages will be in the GRO indexes. They regarded the civil system as fulfilling their requirement to register births and deaths. However, they continued to keep birth and burial "notes" for the purpose of keeping their membership records up to date, but ceased to do this in the mid 20th century, except for the purpose of recording burials in their burial grounds.? These post 1837 records are held with monthly meeting records, usually in a relevant county record office, though those for most of Yorkshire (including Bradford) are in the Brotherton Library at the University of Leeds. Very few of these records are online. There is also a national digest of post 1837 births marriages and burials held at Friends House Library in London - this is not online.

For Quaker deaths 1813 to 1920 there is a wonderful publication called the "Annual Monitor", recording deaths of Friends in the previous year. It is pretty much comprehensive from about 1840 onwards, but only records those who were in formal membership of the Society of Friends when they died. You can search it online on FindMyPast in a collection called "Quaker Deaths 1810-1918".

The marriage of John and Hannah took place in Ilkley Parish Church. If Hannah was a Quaker at the time, she will have been "disowned", that is, deprived of her formal membership of the Society of Friends, as aresult. There would be a record of this in the Minutes of the Monthly Meeting to which she belonged, which would have been Knaresborough MM, in the months after the marriage. These minutes are also in the Brotherton Library in the University of Leeds. Being dosowned did not prevent her continuing to attend Quaker meetings for worship, if she wanted to. This is what probably happened, as the births of the children were registered by Brighouse MM (which included Bradford). The birth note for the eldest (Ann) indeed says "Parents not in Membership" - I have not checked the others. You could also check whether the burial note of John states that he? was not a member. It is possible that Hannah was subsequently readmitted to membership if it is her death that is recorded in the Annual Membership. The record of this will be in the Minutes of Brighouse MM but the quickest way to find out when would be to look at the List of Members of Brighouse MM for 1839-54. Also in Leeds University library - the (possibly out of date) reference I have for the list is CH M 2.

Hope this helps

Chris Pitt Lewis

On 23/08/2024 05:30, Maureen Farrer wrote:

Yes unfortunately no death for her. Have written off to Leeds University Library to see what they could do.

On 23 Aug 2024, at 5:04?AM, Lin Duke via groups.io <dml5481@...> wrote:

Hannah's birth in 1771:

?

John and Hannah's marriage - All Saints, Ilkley 1798 (v faint image)

?

Transcript of Marriage Licence

?

Bishop's Transcript image of marriage entry

?

Lin

?

On Wed, Aug 21, 2024 at 08:19 PM, Maureen Farrer wrote:

Hi listers,

?

I live in Australia and would like to search the??registers for births (1641-1837), marriages (1650-1836), and deaths (1656-1837). for

the Brighouse Quakers, but as they are held in West Yorkshire archives, makes it impossible for me to search.

I am interested in finding a Hannah HOLMES born in 1771 to Joseph and Magdalene. ?She married John FARRER in 1798 in Ilkley but

not sure where it took place. I have all their children and her husband death being registered in Bradford Quakers.