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Has anybody purchased a patch / sound collection from eBay?
One seller (SoundEngine.com) is selling 250K patches and I'm wondering if anybody has,? and are you happy with the purchase?
It's only $5.? So, obviously not a bank breaker.
The patches come in SysEx banks. Supposed to be a download and not a CD or any hard copy.
I just don't want to end up with hours of wasted time.
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? I think there’s plenty on the DX site. ? I’m sure if they were any good they’d already be here. ? Brian. ? ?
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From: jjflash_caSent: Monday, 20 January 2020 2:52 PM To: [email protected]Subject: [YamahaDX] Patch Purchasing from eBay ? Has anybody purchased a patch / sound collection from eBay?
One seller (SoundEngine.com) is selling 250K patches and I'm wondering if anybody has,? and are you happy with the purchase?
It's only $5.? So, obviously not a bank breaker.
The patches come in SysEx banks. Supposed to be a download and not a CD or any hard copy.
I just don't want to end up with hours of wasted time. ?
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They're almost certainly selling a collection of patches they've found for free online - either here, or the ones that come with Dexed, and there is probably a lot of overlap there already.
Google, and you will find more than you know what to do with, for free.? You will definitely waste hours of your life if you decide to try them all though.
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I've purchased patch banks off of ebay for other synths from SoundEngine.? They're OK.? Library size is not really what you're after, though.? After digging through a mere 30,000 DX7 patches from the?Dexed_cart_1.0 patch bank that are online for free, I'd rather have a library of 500 good ones than 30,000 patches that aren't.? 250,000?? That's too many to dig through.??
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On Sun, 19 Jan 2020, Thor Z wrote: I've purchased patch banks off of ebay for other synths from SoundEngine.? They're OK.? Library size is not really what you're after, though.? After digging through
a mere 30,000 DX7 patches from the?Dexed_cart_1.0 patch bank that are online for free, I'd rather have a library of 500 good ones than 30,000 patches that aren't.?
250,000?? That's too many to dig through.?? It's no problem to find zillions of DX7 patch online for free. What such big libraries need to have added value: - Are they sorted and categorized in a useful way? - Have duplicates been removed? What also helps is good Librarian/Editor software to search, organize, and modify your patches. Those eBay libraries are probably patches that can already be found on the internet. For free. -- MT
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Thanks a bunch.
Yes, they are supposed to organized into groups and such, but you're right.... sorting through that lot would be a workout...
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After going through a jillion patches, my ears get numb, leaving me wondering just how many distinctly different and usable sounds are in a DX7? Now yes, of course, there’s a “non-infinite but very large number” of theoretical sounds.? Sure.? But are there?? I mean in the Imitative category, DX strings are maybe 10 sounds before they sound pretty much the same – and none of them especially like strings.? Electric Pianos?? Large number, but same idea.? Total number, maybe 300 or 10 banks. Similarly, a Hammond organ.? ? million different sounds.? But how many has anyone ever used?? A dozen?? Two?? How many can even be discerned by most ears? It’s just a concept I’ve noodle around with – and it’s probably been discussed long ago, anyway. ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thor Z
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2020 10:15 PM
To: jjflash_ca; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Patch Purchasing from eBay? I've purchased patch banks off of ebay for other synths from SoundEngine.? They're OK.? Library size is not really what you're after, though.? After digging through a mere 30,000 DX7 patches from the?Dexed_cart_1.0 patch bank that are online for free, I'd rather have a library of 500 good ones than 30,000 patches that aren't.? 250,000?? That's too many to dig through.??
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It's an interesting point - if any parameter is moved +/- 1 it's hardly a new sound - with the possible exception of 'algorithm' - most parameters take marked changes before there is a distinct change in the outcome.
On Tuesday, 21 January 2020, 07:29:00 GMT, LarryS <vision1@...> wrote:
After going through a jillion patches, my ears get numb, leaving me wondering just how many distinctly different and usable sounds are in a DX7? Now yes, of course, there’s a “non-infinite but very large number” of theoretical sounds.? Sure.? But are there?? I mean in the Imitative category, DX strings are maybe 10 sounds before they sound pretty much the same – and none of them especially like strings.? Electric Pianos?? Large number, but same idea.? Total number, maybe 300 or 10 banks. Similarly, a Hammond organ.? ? million different sounds.? But how many has anyone ever used?? A dozen?? Two?? How many can even be discerned by most ears? It’s just a concept I’ve noodle around with – and it’s probably been discussed long ago, anyway. ? ?
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thor Z
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2020 10:15 PM
To: jjflash_ca; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Patch Purchasing from eBay ? I've purchased patch banks off of ebay for other synths from SoundEngine.? They're OK.? Library size is not really what you're after, though.? After digging through a mere 30,000 DX7 patches from the?Dexed_cart_1.0 patch bank that are online for free, I'd rather have a library of 500 good ones than 30,000 patches that aren't.? 250,000?? That's too many to dig through.??
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These statistical games are always amusing.? Yes, FM synthesis has
millions of sounds, based solely on the numbers.? Many of them,
though, sound similar, while others produce results that aren't all
that useful in practice.? One can create a harpsichord sound with a
carrier of 1.0 and a modulator of 4.0, using short envelopes and the
proper algorithm.? Maybe add a couple of modulators to simulate the
quill strike, etc. and you are ready to compose/perform.? The patch
might sound more authentic by changing the modulator to 5.0 or 6.0,
etc., but it's still going to mimic a harpsichord.
One can then boost the modulation level -- or add more modulators --
to move through 'angry harpsichord,' to 'lunatic harpsichord,' to a
point where the result resembles white noise.? Every one of these
sounds is arguably different, but not always significantly so; nor
are all of them musically useful.? I would suspect that factoring in
usable timbres that don't mimic other instruments, the palette of a
DX7 is still somewhere around a couple thousand sounds.
The Hammond Organ claim is even more ridiculous.? The original claim
was "over 100 million different sounds" -- a number found by
multiplying 9 drawbars * 8 levels.? But 808000000 and 505000000
aren't really different sounds; and 888000008 sounds a lot like
878000016.? There are probably a few dozen basic Hammond sounds, and
most players use the same 5-6.
The one that always struck me funny was the claim (by Dr. Chowning?)
that FM synthesis would ultimately replace all other synthesizers,
since it could simulate anything.? Fourier Analysis states that any
waveform can be expressed as a collection of sine waves at different
frequencies and phase relationships.? So, 'all' one needs to
simulate a Bosendorfer Imperial is a limitless collection of FM
operators, and a formula to decide their proportions and phase
delays!? In practice, though, this is far more difficult to achieve
than practical; so, we have sampling keyboards.
That said, though, FM synthesis has a wonderful, glassy sound that
is very difficult to simulate by other means.? I have pared down my
gigging rig several times over the past couple of years, but a TX802
is still in the mix!
Regards,
-BW
Bruce Wahler
Ashby Solutions.com?
bw@...
978.597.7008
On 1/20/2020 1:51 PM, LarryS wrote:
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After going
through a jillion patches, my ears get numb, leaving me
wondering just how many distinctly different and usable
sounds are in a DX7?
Now yes, of
course, there’s a “non-infinite but very large number” of
theoretical sounds.? Sure.? But are there?? I mean in the
Imitative category, DX strings are maybe 10 sounds before
they sound pretty much the same – and none of them
especially like strings.? Electric Pianos?? Large number,
but same idea.? Total number, maybe 300 or 10 banks.
Similarly, a
Hammond organ.? ? million different sounds.? But how many
has anyone ever used?? A dozen?? Two?? How many can even be
discerned by most ears?
It’s just a
concept I’ve noodle around with – and it’s probably been
discussed long ago, anyway.
?
?
?
I've purchased patch banks
off of ebay for other synths from SoundEngine.? They're
OK.? Library size is not really what you're after,
though.? After digging through a mere 30,000 DX7 patches
from the?Dexed_cart_1.0 patch bank that are online for
free, I'd rather have a library of 500 good ones than
30,000 patches that aren't.? 250,000?? That's too many to
dig through.??
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To be fair to FM I do think you can model just about any sound with FM, but it takes a lot more than 6 operators.? I can get a lot closer with my FS1R with 16 than I can on my 4 or 6 operator FM synths.? And the formants on the FS1R are a big help too for some instruments and voices.? Skill factors in too.? Most people donating to the patch banks are not really all that good at FM.? For example, in digging through the Dexed library I didn't find even one real-sounding acoustic guitar patch.? There are plenty of great electric guitars in there, but not one accurate acoustic guitar.? I worked this last weekend to see if I could create one and I did, with only 6 operators.? I cheat, I use a spectrum analyzer.? It's the only method I've found that works on creating a patch that sounds close to a real instrument or a recording.? You're shooting in the dark otherwise.?
Curious?? I wrote a manual you can download for free off my website.??
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I love my 3 x TX816. And FM synthesis in many other synths. The inspiration and gratification of sonic delight seems to be endless.
Music is no thing. The only thing that makes sense is that music happens now. Music is impartial to its sonic design. To one jam, patch number 18999999999 can inspire the experience of music. And in another jam, patch number 18999999998 could inspire the experience of music.
Bifurcating chaos comes before and carries on forward.
To the OP, the underlying sonic footprint of FM synthesis is almost always guaranteed, but the musical use is limitless. The artistry lies in both the mind of the creator and the mind of the perceiver.
In the end, it is only in a mind of a perceiver that music occurs. So... find a creative way to make use of 1 million FM patches. Or not. Music is impartial.
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?My antivirus isn’t very happy with your site.?This website has been blocked by 
For your security BullGuard has blocked access to this page
The site is listed as a malicious site that may be stealing identity information, plant viruses on your machine or do other harmful things. ? ?
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From: Thor ZSent: Wednesday, 22 January 2020 6:30 PM To: Bruce Wahler; [email protected]Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Patch Purchasing from eBay ? To be fair to FM I do think you can model just about any sound with FM, but it takes a lot more than 6 operators.? I can get a lot closer with my FS1R with 16 than I can on my 4 or 6 operator FM synths.? And the formants on the FS1R are a big help too for some instruments and voices.? Skill factors in too.? Most people donating to the patch banks are not really all that good at FM.? For example, in digging through the Dexed library I didn't find even one real-sounding acoustic guitar patch.? There are plenty of great electric guitars in there, but not one accurate acoustic guitar.? I worked this last weekend to see if I could create one and I did, with only 6 operators.? I cheat, I use a spectrum analyzer.? It's the only method I've found that works on creating a patch that sounds close to a real instrument or a recording.? You're shooting in the dark otherwise.?
Curious?? I wrote a manual you can download for free off my website.?? ?
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This is true. ? Obviously, Yamaha had to make some compromises for the available components in 1984.? 6 ops with envelopes (that has its own dedicated chip) is a lot of real time crunching for the day. ? Thanks for the manual!? Love to see good documentation like that. ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thor Z
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 10:24 PM
To: Bruce Wahler; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Patch Purchasing from eBay? To be fair to FM I do think you can model just about any sound with FM, but it takes a lot more than 6 operators.? I can get a lot closer with my FS1R with 16 than I can on my 4 or 6 operator FM synths.? And the formants on the FS1R are a big help too for some instruments and voices.? Skill factors in too.? Most people donating to the patch banks are not really all that good at FM.? For example, in digging through the Dexed library I didn't find even one real-sounding acoustic guitar patch.? There are plenty of great electric guitars in there, but not one accurate acoustic guitar.? I worked this last weekend to see if I could create one and I did, with only 6 operators.? I cheat, I use a spectrum analyzer.? It's the only method I've found that works on creating a patch that sounds close to a real instrument or a recording.? You're shooting in the dark otherwise.?
Curious?? I wrote a manual you can download for free off my website.??
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Yes,thanks for the manual - that's a lot of work! :-)
Lee
On Wednesday, 22 January 2020, 13:27:15 GMT, LarryS <vision1@...> wrote:
This is true. ? Obviously, Yamaha had to make some compromises for the available components in 1984.? 6 ops with envelopes (that has its own dedicated chip) is a lot of real time crunching for the day. ? Thanks for the manual!? Love to see good documentation like that. ? ? ?
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thor Z
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 10:24 PM
To: Bruce Wahler; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Patch Purchasing from eBay ? To be fair to FM I do think you can model just about any sound with FM, but it takes a lot more than 6 operators.? I can get a lot closer with my FS1R with 16 than I can on my 4 or 6 operator FM synths.? And the formants on the FS1R are a big help too for some instruments and voices.? Skill factors in too.? Most people donating to the patch banks are not really all that good at FM.? For example, in digging through the Dexed library I didn't find even one real-sounding acoustic guitar patch.? There are plenty of great electric guitars in there, but not one accurate acoustic guitar.? I worked this last weekend to see if I could create one and I did, with only 6 operators.? I cheat, I use a spectrum analyzer.? It's the only method I've found that works on creating a patch that sounds close to a real instrument or a recording.? You're shooting in the dark otherwise.?
Curious?? I wrote a manual you can download for free off my website.??
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That manual is great.
Thanks.
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020, at 4:24 AM, Thor Z wrote:
To be fair to FM I do think you can model just about any sound with FM, but it takes a lot more than 6 operators.? I can get a lot closer with my FS1R with 16 than I can on my 4 or 6 operator FM synths.? And the formants on the FS1R are a big help too for some instruments and voices.? Skill factors in too.? Most people donating to the patch banks are not really all that good at FM.? For example, in digging through the Dexed library I didn't find even one real-sounding acoustic guitar patch.? There are plenty of great electric guitars in there, but not one accurate acoustic guitar.? I worked this last weekend to see if I could create one and I did, with only 6 operators.? I cheat, I use a spectrum analyzer.? It's the only method I've found that works on creating a patch that sounds close to a real instrument or a recording.? You're shooting in the dark otherwise.?
Curious?? I wrote a manual you can download for free off my website.??
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Hi Thor,
I downloaded your excellent and comprehensive DIY guide.?
Interesting approach using the spectrum analyzer!? Have you
considered posting this to the Files section on YamahaDX?
You're obviously a technically-savvy player (as am I), which I think
is part of the difficulty with FM synthesis:? it's not *impossible*
to program, but it's much easier if one has a set of skills and
process of thinking that don't overlap with those required to be a
performing musician.? Some players have (or can learn) both skill
sets; others, not so much.? The frustration with the DX line -- at
least, for the average musician -- was the amount of time/effort it
took to dial in a sound; and how easy it was to accidentally hit one
button and completely change the sound.? Many players treated them
more like 'preset synths,' or paid others to make their sound.
Another complaint about DX is that the results can be realistic, but
at the same time 'thin' or 'cold'; compared to other methods.? A
trick that I've used is to add a little bit of sine wave to the end
result to compensate for the loss of fundamental as the harmonics
increase? (I actually have a patch called 'Sine Fattener' in the
TX8i02 User bank.)? This highlights the need for more oscillators.
I've often wondered what might have happened to FM synthesis if it
debuted 10-15 years later.? Would Yamaha have been able to increase
the UI, add more operators, and make software tools that would allow
the average musician to better access the potential of the
instruments in real time?? The DX1 had some features along this
line, but its price was beyond the means of an average player.?
Someone could probably do this today, but there's little or no
monetary incentive to do so.
Regards,
-BW
Bruce Wahler
Ashby Solutions.com?
bw@...
978.597.7008
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Mine too:
This website is blocked due to its current content categorization: "Technology/Internet;Malicious Sources/Malnets"
On Wednesday, 22 January 2020, 10:27:59 GMT, Brian <briantolson@...> wrote:
?My antivirus isn’t very happy with your site. ?This website has been blocked by 
For your security BullGuard has blocked access to this page
The site is listed as a malicious site that may be stealing identity information, plant viruses on your machine or do other harmful things. ? ?
From: Thor ZSent: Wednesday, 22 January 2020 6:30 PM To: Bruce Wahler; [email protected]Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Patch Purchasing from eBay ? To be fair to FM I do think you can model just about any sound with FM, but it takes a lot more than 6 operators.? I can get a lot closer with my FS1R with 16 than I can on my 4 or 6 operator FM synths.? And the formants on the FS1R are a big help too for some instruments and voices.? Skill factors in too.? Most people donating to the patch banks are not really all that good at FM.? For example, in digging through the Dexed library I didn't find even one real-sounding acoustic guitar patch.? There are plenty of great electric guitars in there, but not one accurate acoustic guitar.? I worked this last weekend to see if I could create one and I did, with only 6 operators.? I cheat, I use a spectrum analyzer.? It's the only method I've found that works on creating a patch that sounds close to a real instrument or a recording.? You're shooting in the dark otherwise.?
Curious?? I wrote a manual you can download for free off my website.?? ?
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My Anitvirus COMODO doesn't flag it.? It's just html with a template.
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Result can be realistic but that is relative. I remember a time when everyone went on about how realistic the DX7 Timpani prese was. Only because the only other electronic instrument it could be compared to was a subtractive synthesiser.
I spent a long time honing that realism into my work using my ears and an element which was exclusively missing in 6 operator FM synthesisers until the SY77, noise.
The 4 operator series could do this thanks to faster LFOs, a serious limitation of the DX7 and synthesis of realistic physical materials. Hence my videos:
https://youtu.be/CdPa6VLi4GQ
I have an SY77 now and it is pure joy for doing this.
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No issues here (USA) and we have pretty strict policies. Maybe because it's unknown or new to the AV.
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On 1/22/2020 4:50 AM, Thor Z wrote: My Anitvirus COMODO doesn't flag it.? It's just html with a template.
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AndyHornBlower
Lee Borrell