> Other harmonic-based tunings don’t
need this – or at least have enough other problems to not turn to
Stretch for their solution.
I think this might be the crux of the situation.? Equal
Temperament is very close to an ideal choice, but tuners noticed
that following the rules of tuning exactly didn't end up with the
best end results, at least, to the ear.
But the string issue is real:? the windings do not track the
center core perfectly, and the issue grows over the distance from
the reference string -- in our case, usually Middle C.? So, it
becomes a choice:? do we follow the mathematical model -- which
results in the same beating between intervals of the
*fundamentals* across the keyboard -- or do we focus on the
beating between harmonics by stretching the tuning?? Since a piano
is harmonic-rich, the answer seems to be the latter.
________
But I still wonder if the process applies to digital piano
samples; or to non-string instruments like the Rhodes.? It's
difficult to answer, because any reference piano is only going to
remain perfectly tuned for a very short time.? Within minutes,
string tension and temperature/humidity changes conspire to alter
the pitch of each string.? So, one cannot compare a grand piano
vs. a sample (or modeled) piano and make strong conclusions about
frequency relations, unless its possible to do all the analysis
within minutes of a piano tuner's work.
That said, sometimes adding a little imperfection improves the
overall sound, even if the results aren't 100% accurate.? As an
example:? I've found that the Mellotron samples of my Nord Electro
sound much more realistic if I apply the 'Vibrato' effect at a
very slow setting.? Now, if one examines what that effect does at
slow speed, it actually creates a non-linear pitch bend that is
mostly flat, with a slight 'whip' of FM at the end, kind of like
this --
?????? ______/\______/\______/\__
This is clearly *not* how the wow and flutter of a Mellotron's
tape mechanism occurs.? Nevertheless, the slow vibrato adds a
feeling that is missing when playing the dry samples -- even
though they were recorded on a real Mellotron, with its own wow
and flutter.? It may be that adding stretch values to a digital
piano better simulates the effect of tuning an acoustic piano,
then allowing the piano to settle a bit before use.? So, if
stretch tuning improves your Kurzweil's illusion, or the realism
of an FM piano, that's not a bad thing.? I just wouldn't stress
over finding the 'perfect' tuning rules, because it may be that
any small variation improves the sound.
Regards,
-BW
Bruce Wahler
Halfmoon-Switch.com?
bw@...
978.597.7008
PLEASE NOTE: ?The AshbySolutions.com domain will be closed soon.
?Please use the new
(wahler.us) email for all future correspondence. ?Thank you for
your understanding.
?
?
On 8/20/2021 7:05 PM, LarryS wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I have heard this
version before and I have heard other versions of WHY
stretch tuning.?
While I’m not
certain which explanation best encompasses all the physical
world, I do know the debate carries on in certain circles.?
What debate??
It’s not that the
strings or their makeup that have anything to do with it,
it’s our own imperfect, non-mechanical ears.? Of course, who
wants to blame listeners, and ultimately customers?? Poor
form.? So we blame the strings.
Trouble is, as we
get closer models, both synth and sample, stretch tuning
becomes more apparent – with nary a string involved.? My
go-to for piano is a Kurzweil and yes, it sounds better with
a few tweaks of stretch.
Stretch Tuning
seems to be an outgrowth of Equal Temperament tuning.? Other
harmonic-based tunings don’t need this – or at least have
enough other problems to not turn to Stretch for their
solution.
But like Bose
speakers and Aphex Bottoms, it’s not about what’s
mathematically correct, it’s what “sounds better”.? After
all, this is how stretch tuning came about.? The various
explanations came about much later.
For a couple of
decades, it’s been a given that anything that can bring more
animation into the sound of a DX7 is a good thing.? My guess
is this is no exception.? Lots of unexplored possibilities,
here.
BUT – this will
be at-best a very subtle change to a 6 op FM patch.
Heck, it’s a
pretty subtle change to an acoustic piano.
?
L.
?
?
?
Exactly. The Railsback stretch/effect is
due to the “inharmonicity” of the strings vibrating. To my
knowledge, not even Pianoteq goes so far as to model this. I
expect you’ll find no positive benefit from employing the
“stretch tuning” as a result. But do keep us posted; it’s an
interesting notion. It would never have occurred to me to
apply those offsets to virtually generated tones.
?
?
?
I suspect
that if stretch tuning benefits an FM piano, it will be
something of a 'happy accident.'? Stretch tuning is
necessary on an acoustic piano because of the way that a
wound string behaves -- i.e., the windings do not perfectly
follow the frequency of the core.? Stretch tuning is
actually a compromise between the 'correct' mathematical
pitch and one which sounds more pleasing to the listener.
If one attempts to stretch tune say, a Fender Rhodes
electric piano, the curve will be different, because tines
act differently than strings.? Nevertheless, a stretch-tuned
Rhodes sounds different than a equal-tempered Rhodes.? (I'm
not going to choose a winner here, because attempting to
copy acoustic piano idiosyncrasies on a Rhodes is a
debatable endeavor.? A piano is a piano, and a Rhodes is its
own instrument.)
Since an FM piano is closer to a mathematical model, I would
expect that the fundamental/harmonic ratio differences would
be minimal across the scale; in fact, any differences might
not even be linear.
________
This is, of course, quite different from the microtuning
changes used by Wendy Carlos and others.? In this case, the
composer or player is trying to better duplicate the
historical performance, which may use a tuning other than
equal temperament.
Regards,
-BW
Bruce Wahler
Halfmoon-Switch.com?
bw@...
978.597.7008
PLEASE NOTE:
?The AshbySolutions.com domain will be closed soon.
?Please use the new (wahler.us) email for all future
correspondence. ?Thank you for your understanding.
?
?
On 8/20/2021 7:27 AM, Daniel Forró via
groups.io wrote:
I have found in my archive another
table sent to me by George Chakiris, it uses only
small differences. I attached it.
The basic question is how stretch
tuning will sound with FM generated electronic piano
sound, which is far from the real acoustic piano
sound, and if it has any reason to use is. I don’t
think it can help to improve sound.
There was interesting discussion
many years ago in microtonal composers circles about
the relation between timbre and microtonal tunings. I
think the person behind the research is a microtonal
music composer William Sethares. Try to start here:
?
?
On Aug 20, 2021, at 3:26,
philfrei via <philfrei@...>
wrote:
?
Thanks for the nudge. I was
personally emailed a file with settings
that contain pitch adjustments for every
note, and the equation that generated the
numbers. It looks quite interesting, and
was developed by the person who contacted
me. I assume that the individual reads
this list and I'd like to encourage them
to share the chart and equation with the
full group.
The bottom line, though, is that I don't
know yet if there exists a chart on the
Railsback effect produced by Yamaha
engineers in any of their manuals. I've
been a bit more focused on learning
whether or not there is an industry-level
standard practice on the issue than in
testing how it sounds. So far, from the
various people who are closer to studio
recording tech than I, there doesn't seem
to be much use or awareness of these pitch
adjustments, which kind of surprises me.
Maybe it is related to the ability of an
acoustic musician to make adjustments on
the fly, as I learned to do when playing
the oboe in the studio.
So, unfortunately, the task of testing how
it actually sounds got back-burnered. A
related project, more front and center a
the moment, is a pilot test I have going
for an experiment on whether timbre
affects the perceived pitch of notes. I'm
collecting data from a handful of people,
and need to find a good data-analysis
person to ensure that what I'm collecting
via the test is suitable for
quantifying/modeling. (I'm more a
composer/programmer than a scientist.)
I haven't used my DX7S in the studio
much lately and figuring out the
logistics of inputting and using the
data is a bit nervous-making (due to
unfamiliarity), though probably doable.
I've been doing more with an FM synth I
programmed using Java that can produce
equivalent voices to those I developed
on the DX7. When I get a chance, the
plan is to work the Railsback Curve data
into the functions that convert MIDI
pitches to Hz and vice versa, and see
how it sounds. If I get this working,
I'll post links to a something that
compares the two intonations
back-to-back. But it could be another
month or more.
>From: Eb Myatt
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 02:19:50 PDT
>Good Morning Phil,
>
>We haven't received any feedback
from you since you last posted. So,
did you manage to resolve the
>"Railsback" tuning issue that you
discussed? Please let us know if you
have the table for the DX7s >or any
other Yamaha synth ?
>
>Best Regards,
>E?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
|
I have heard this version before and I have heard other versions of WHY stretch tuning.? While I’m not certain which explanation best encompasses all the physical world, I do know the debate carries on in certain circles.? What debate?? It’s not that the strings or their makeup that have anything to do with it, it’s our own imperfect, non-mechanical ears.? Of course, who wants to blame listeners, and ultimately customers?? Poor form.? So we blame the strings. Trouble is, as we get closer models, both synth and sample, stretch tuning becomes more apparent – with nary a string involved.? My go-to for piano is a Kurzweil and yes, it sounds better with a few tweaks of stretch. Stretch Tuning seems to be an outgrowth of Equal Temperament tuning.? Other harmonic-based tunings don’t need this – or at least have enough other problems to not turn to Stretch for their solution. But like Bose speakers and Aphex Bottoms, it’s not about what’s mathematically correct, it’s what “sounds better”.? After all, this is how stretch tuning came about.? The various explanations came about much later. For a couple of decades, it’s been a given that anything that can bring more animation into the sound of a DX7 is a good thing.? My guess is this is no exception.? Lots of unexplored possibilities, here. BUT – this will be at-best a very subtle change to a 6 op FM patch. Heck, it’s a pretty subtle change to an acoustic piano. ? L. ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Williston
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 9:05 AM
To: [email protected]; bw@...; danforcz@...
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Intonation on DX7? ? Exactly. The Railsback stretch/effect is due to the “inharmonicity” of the strings vibrating. To my knowledge, not even Pianoteq goes so far as to model this. I expect you’ll find no positive benefit from employing the “stretch tuning” as a result. But do keep us posted; it’s an interesting notion. It would never have occurred to me to apply those offsets to virtually generated tones. ? ? ? I suspect that if stretch tuning benefits an FM piano, it will be something of a 'happy accident.'? Stretch tuning is necessary on an acoustic piano because of the way that a wound string behaves -- i.e., the windings do not perfectly follow the frequency of the core.? Stretch tuning is actually a compromise between the 'correct' mathematical pitch and one which sounds more pleasing to the listener.
If one attempts to stretch tune say, a Fender Rhodes electric piano, the curve will be different, because tines act differently than strings.? Nevertheless, a stretch-tuned Rhodes sounds different than a equal-tempered Rhodes.? (I'm not going to choose a winner here, because attempting to copy acoustic piano idiosyncrasies on a Rhodes is a debatable endeavor.? A piano is a piano, and a Rhodes is its own instrument.)
Since an FM piano is closer to a mathematical model, I would expect that the fundamental/harmonic ratio differences would be minimal across the scale; in fact, any differences might not even be linear.
________
This is, of course, quite different from the microtuning changes used by Wendy Carlos and others.? In this case, the composer or player is trying to better duplicate the historical performance, which may use a tuning other than equal temperament. Regards,
-BW
Bruce Wahler
Halfmoon-Switch.com?
bw@...
978.597.7008
PLEASE NOTE: ?The AshbySolutions.com domain will be closed soon. ?Please use the new (wahler.us) email for all future correspondence. ?Thank you for your understanding.
?
? On 8/20/2021 7:27 AM, Daniel Forró via groups.io wrote: I have found in my archive another table sent to me by George Chakiris, it uses only small differences. I attached it. The basic question is how stretch tuning will sound with FM generated electronic piano sound, which is far from the real acoustic piano sound, and if it has any reason to use is. I don’t think it can help to improve sound. There was interesting discussion many years ago in microtonal composers circles about the relation between timbre and microtonal tunings. I think the person behind the research is a microtonal music composer William Sethares. Try to start here: ? ? On Aug 20, 2021, at 3:26, philfrei via <philfrei@...> wrote: ? Thanks for the nudge. I was personally emailed a file with settings that contain pitch adjustments for every note, and the equation that generated the numbers. It looks quite interesting, and was developed by the person who contacted me. I assume that the individual reads this list and I'd like to encourage them to share the chart and equation with the full group.
The bottom line, though, is that I don't know yet if there exists a chart on the Railsback effect produced by Yamaha engineers in any of their manuals. I've been a bit more focused on learning whether or not there is an industry-level standard practice on the issue than in testing how it sounds. So far, from the various people who are closer to studio recording tech than I, there doesn't seem to be much use or awareness of these pitch adjustments, which kind of surprises me. Maybe it is related to the ability of an acoustic musician to make adjustments on the fly, as I learned to do when playing the oboe in the studio.
So, unfortunately, the task of testing how it actually sounds got back-burnered. A related project, more front and center a the moment, is a pilot test I have going for an experiment on whether timbre affects the perceived pitch of notes. I'm collecting data from a handful of people, and need to find a good data-analysis person to ensure that what I'm collecting via the test is suitable for quantifying/modeling. (I'm more a composer/programmer than a scientist.)
I haven't used my DX7S in the studio much lately and figuring out the logistics of inputting and using the data is a bit nervous-making (due to unfamiliarity), though probably doable. I've been doing more with an FM synth I programmed using Java that can produce equivalent voices to those I developed on the DX7. When I get a chance, the plan is to work the Railsback Curve data into the functions that convert MIDI pitches to Hz and vice versa, and see how it sounds. If I get this working, I'll post links to a something that compares the two intonations back-to-back. But it could be another month or more.
>From: Eb Myatt
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 02:19:50 PDT
>Good Morning Phil,
>
>We haven't received any feedback from you since you last posted. So, did you manage to resolve the >"Railsback" tuning issue that you discussed? Please let us know if you have the table for the DX7s >or any other Yamaha synth ?
>
>Best Regards,
>E? ?
? ? ? ? ?
?
|
On Aug 21, 2021, at 6:29, Eb Myatt via < eb.myatt@...> wrote:
On Aug 20, 2021, at 8:11 AM, Daniel Forró via < danforcz@...> wrote: It has nothing to do with coarse or fine tuning in FM algorithm. I suppose they are Cents deviation, so it has to be translated in DX7S/IID/TX802 steps in microtune function. Daniel
My question is about the headers -2 … 8: what do these headers refer to??
Octaves in Yamaha system.
Secondly, the chart is entitled?“DX7ii Fine Tuning”.?
He means detuning from ET done in microtuning. Logically, it can’t be Operator Fine Tuning in algorithm, because that one is not possible to set individually for each key.?
Thirdly, there are 126 values in the chart considering that a grand piano or a Fender Rhodes each has a maximum of 88 notes ??
E?
That’s a whole MIDI range (without two lowest notes).?
Anyway, table is not quite perfect, just his version of stretched tuning. And it is not linear…
Daniel Forro
|
On Aug 20, 2021, at 8:11 AM, Daniel Forró via < danforcz@...> wrote: It has nothing to do with coarse or fine tuning in FM algorithm. I suppose they are Cents deviation, so it has to be translated in DX7S/IID/TX802 steps in microtune function. Daniel
My question is about the headers -2 … 8: what do these headers refer to?? Secondly, the chart is entitled?“DX7ii Fine Tuning”.? Thirdly, there are 126 values in the chart considering that a grand piano or a Fender Rhodes each has a maximum of 88 notes ??
E?
|
?
Exactly. The Railsback stretch/effect is due to the “inharmonicity” of the strings vibrating. To my knowledge, not even Pianoteq goes so far as to model this. I expect you’ll find no positive benefit from employing the “stretch tuning”
as a result. But do keep us posted; it’s an interesting notion. It would never have occurred to me to apply those offsets to virtually generated tones.
?
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of
Bruce Wahler via groups.io
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 06:53
To: [email protected]; danforcz@...
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Intonation on DX7
?
I suspect that if stretch tuning benefits an FM piano, it will be something of a 'happy accident.'? Stretch tuning is necessary on an acoustic piano because of the way that a wound string behaves -- i.e., the
windings do not perfectly follow the frequency of the core.? Stretch tuning is actually a compromise between the 'correct' mathematical pitch and one which sounds more pleasing to the listener.
If one attempts to stretch tune say, a Fender Rhodes electric piano, the curve will be different, because tines act differently than strings.? Nevertheless, a stretch-tuned Rhodes sounds different than a equal-tempered Rhodes.? (I'm not going to choose a winner
here, because attempting to copy acoustic piano idiosyncrasies on a Rhodes is a debatable endeavor.? A piano is a piano, and a Rhodes is its own instrument.)
Since an FM piano is closer to a mathematical model, I would expect that the fundamental/harmonic ratio differences would be minimal across the scale; in fact, any differences might not even be linear.
________
This is, of course, quite different from the microtuning changes used by Wendy Carlos and others.? In this case, the composer or player is trying to better duplicate the historical performance, which may use a tuning other than equal temperament.
Regards,
-BW
Bruce Wahler
Halfmoon-Switch.com?
bw@...
978.597.7008
PLEASE NOTE: ?The AshbySolutions.com domain will be closed soon. ?Please use the new (wahler.us) email for all future correspondence. ?Thank you for your understanding.
?
?
On 8/20/2021 7:27 AM, Daniel Forró via groups.io wrote:
I have found in my archive another table sent to me by George Chakiris, it uses only small differences. I attached it.
The basic question is how stretch tuning will sound with FM generated electronic piano sound, which is far from the real acoustic piano sound, and if it has any reason to use is. I don’t think it can help to improve sound.
There was interesting discussion many years ago in microtonal composers circles about the relation between timbre and microtonal tunings. I think the person behind the research is a microtonal music composer William Sethares. Try to start
here:
?
On Aug 20, 2021, at 3:26, philfrei via <philfrei@...> wrote:
?
Thanks for the nudge. I was personally emailed a file with settings that contain pitch adjustments for every note, and the equation that generated the numbers. It looks quite interesting,
and was developed by the person who contacted me. I assume that the individual reads this list and I'd like to encourage them to share the chart and equation with the full group.
The bottom line, though, is that I don't know yet if there exists a chart on the Railsback effect produced by Yamaha engineers in any of their manuals. I've been a bit more focused on learning whether or not there is an industry-level standard practice on the
issue than in testing how it sounds. So far, from the various people who are closer to studio recording tech than I, there doesn't seem to be much use or awareness of these pitch adjustments, which kind of surprises me. Maybe it is related to the ability of
an acoustic musician to make adjustments on the fly, as I learned to do when playing the oboe in the studio.
So, unfortunately, the task of testing how it actually sounds got back-burnered. A related project, more front and center a the moment, is a pilot test I have going for an experiment on whether timbre affects the perceived pitch of notes. I'm collecting data
from a handful of people, and need to find a good data-analysis person to ensure that what I'm collecting via the test is suitable for quantifying/modeling. (I'm more a composer/programmer than a scientist.)
I haven't used my DX7S in the studio much lately and figuring out the logistics of inputting and using the data is a bit nervous-making (due to unfamiliarity), though probably doable. I've been doing more with an FM synth I programmed using Java that can produce
equivalent voices to those I developed on the DX7. When I get a chance, the plan is to work the Railsback Curve data into the functions that convert MIDI pitches to Hz and vice versa, and see how it sounds. If I get this working, I'll post links to a something
that compares the two intonations back-to-back. But it could be another month or more.
>From:
Eb Myatt
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 02:19:50 PDT
>Good Morning Phil,
>
>We haven't received any feedback from you since you last posted. So, did you manage to resolve the >"Railsback" tuning issue that you discussed? Please let us know if you have the table for the DX7s >or any other Yamaha synth ?
>
>Best Regards,
>E?
?
?
?
?
?
|
I suspect that if stretch tuning benefits an FM piano, it will be
something of a 'happy accident.'? Stretch tuning is necessary on an
acoustic piano because of the way that a wound string behaves --
i.e., the windings do not perfectly follow the frequency of the
core.? Stretch tuning is actually a compromise between the 'correct'
mathematical pitch and one which sounds more pleasing to the
listener.
If one attempts to stretch tune say, a Fender Rhodes electric piano,
the curve will be different, because tines act differently than
strings.? Nevertheless, a stretch-tuned Rhodes sounds different than
a equal-tempered Rhodes.? (I'm not going to choose a winner here,
because attempting to copy acoustic piano idiosyncrasies on a Rhodes
is a debatable endeavor.? A piano is a piano, and a Rhodes is its
own instrument.)
Since an FM piano is closer to a mathematical model, I would expect
that the fundamental/harmonic ratio differences would be minimal
across the scale; in fact, any differences might not even be linear.
________
This is, of course, quite different from the microtuning changes
used by Wendy Carlos and others.? In this case, the composer or
player is trying to better duplicate the historical performance,
which may use a tuning other than equal temperament.
Regards,
-BW
Bruce Wahler
Halfmoon-Switch.com?
bw@...
978.597.7008
PLEASE NOTE: ?The AshbySolutions.com domain will be closed soon.
?Please use the new
(wahler.us) email for all future correspondence. ?Thank you for
your understanding.
?
?
On 8/20/2021 7:27 AM, Daniel Forró via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I have found in my archive another table sent to
me by George Chakiris, it uses only small differences. I
attached it.
The basic question is how stretch tuning will
sound with FM generated electronic piano sound, which is far
from the real acoustic piano sound, and if it has any reason
to use is. I don’t think it can help to improve sound.
There was interesting discussion many years ago in
microtonal composers circles about the relation between timbre
and microtonal tunings. I think the person behind the research
is a microtonal music composer William Sethares. Try to start
here:
Daniel Forro
On Aug 20, 2021, at 3:26, philfrei via
< philfrei@...>
wrote:
Thanks for the nudge. I was
personally emailed a file with settings that
contain pitch adjustments for every note, and the
equation that generated the numbers. It looks
quite interesting, and was developed by the person
who contacted me. I assume that the individual
reads this list and I'd like to encourage them to
share the chart and equation with the full group.
The bottom line, though, is that I don't know yet
if there exists a chart on the Railsback effect
produced by Yamaha engineers in any of their
manuals. I've been a bit more focused on learning
whether or not there is an industry-level standard
practice on the issue than in testing how it
sounds. So far, from the various people
who are closer to studio recording tech
than I, there doesn't seem to be much use or
awareness of these pitch adjustments, which kind
of surprises me. Maybe it is related to the
ability of an acoustic musician to make
adjustments on the fly, as I learned to do when
playing the oboe in the studio.
So, unfortunately, the task of testing how
it actually sounds got back-burnered. A related
project, more front and center a the moment, is a
pilot test I have going for an experiment on
whether timbre affects the perceived pitch of
notes. I'm collecting data from a handful of
people, and need to find a good data-analysis
person to ensure that what I'm collecting via the
test is suitable for quantifying/modeling. (I'm
more a composer/programmer than a scientist.)
I haven't used my DX7S in the studio much lately
and figuring out the logistics of inputting and
using the data is a bit nervous-making (due to
unfamiliarity), though probably doable. I've
been doing more with an FM synth I programmed
using Java that can produce equivalent voices to
those I developed on the DX7. When I get a
chance, the plan is to work the Railsback Curve
data into the functions that convert MIDI
pitches to Hz and vice versa, and see how it
sounds. If I get this working, I'll post links
to a something that compares the two intonations
back-to-back. But it could be another month or
more.
>From: Eb Myatt
>Date: Thu, 19
Aug 2021 02:19:50 PDT
>Good
Morning Phil,
>
>We haven't
received any feedback from you since you last
posted. So, did you manage to resolve the
>"Railsback" tuning issue that you discussed?
Please let us know if you have the table for the
DX7s >or any
other Yamaha synth ?
>
>Best Regards,
>E?
|
I have found in my archive another table sent to me by George Chakiris, it uses only small differences. I attached it.
The basic question is how stretch tuning will sound with FM generated electronic piano sound, which is far from the real acoustic piano sound, and if it has any reason to use is. I don’t think it can help to improve sound.
There was interesting discussion many years ago in microtonal composers circles about the relation between timbre and microtonal tunings. I think the person behind the research is a microtonal music composer William Sethares. Try to start here:
Daniel Forro
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 20, 2021, at 3:26, philfrei via < philfrei@...> wrote:
Thanks for the nudge. I was personally emailed a file with settings that contain pitch adjustments for every note, and the equation that generated the numbers. It looks quite interesting, and was developed by the person who contacted me. I assume that the individual reads this list and I'd like to encourage them to share the chart and equation with the full group.
The bottom line, though, is that I don't know yet if there exists a chart on the Railsback effect produced by Yamaha engineers in any of their manuals. I've been a bit more focused on learning whether or not there is an industry-level standard practice on the issue than in testing how it sounds. So far, from the various people who are closer to studio recording tech
than I, there doesn't seem to be much use or awareness of these
pitch adjustments, which kind of surprises me. Maybe it is related to
the ability of an acoustic musician to make adjustments on the fly, as I
learned to do when playing the oboe in the studio.
So, unfortunately, the task of testing how it actually sounds got back-burnered. A related project, more front and center a the moment, is a pilot test I have going for an experiment on whether timbre affects the perceived pitch of notes. I'm collecting data from a handful of people, and need to find a good data-analysis person to ensure that what I'm collecting via the test is suitable for quantifying/modeling. (I'm more a composer/programmer than a scientist.)
I haven't used my DX7S in the studio much lately and figuring out the logistics of inputting and using the data is a bit nervous-making (due to unfamiliarity), though probably doable. I've been doing more with an FM synth I programmed using Java that can produce equivalent voices to those I developed on the DX7. When I get a chance, the plan is to work the Railsback Curve data into the functions that convert MIDI pitches to Hz and vice versa, and see how it sounds. If I get this working, I'll post links to a something that compares the two intonations back-to-back. But it could be another month or more.
>From: Eb Myatt
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 02:19:50 PDT
>Good Morning Phil,
>
>We
haven't received any feedback from you since you last posted. So, did
you manage to resolve the >"Railsback" tuning issue that you discussed?
Please let us know if you have the table for the DX7s >or any other
Yamaha synth ?
>
>Best Regards,
>E?
|
On Aug 20, 2021, at 20:31, Eb Myatt via < eb.myatt@...> wrote:
You also mentioned the possibility in an earlier message on this thread that the pitch adjustments on the DX7S may not have the required resolution whether on the coarse or the fine setting.?
Resolution for microtuning on DX7S is 1.17 Cent, any key can be retuned to any frequency in whole range of instrument. That means that scales with many steps in octave can be done, steps can be equal or unequal, and there’s also no need to keep octaves pure, octave interval can be omitted. Also inverted keyboard is possible, or different tunings in different keyboard zones.
To get exact whole numbers of Cents is not possible, some approximation is always necessary, but resolution is enough dense to mask it - nobody can hear such small steps. It can only be a small problem in chords because of beating but still it’s usable.
Very interesting that there are a few stretch tunings Daniel.
Those differs only by width - some have smaller slope, some larger.
What do the columns marked -2 … 8 represent ? Are these the settings for fine tuning on the DX7ii ?
It has nothing to do with coarse or fine tuning in FM algorithm. I suppose they are Cents deviation, so it has to be translated in DX7S/IID/TX802 steps in microtune function.
Not microtonal in the strict sense, Wendy Carlos in her album Switched on Bach 2000 used many alternative tunings on synthesizers using her own custom tuning tables and software implementations.
E?
Yes, of course… I did also microtonal works, using ethnic, historic or my own tunings.
Daniel Forro
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Hello Phil,
Your detailed reply is deeply appreciated.On Aug 19, 2021, at 2:26 PM, philfrei via < philfrei@...> wrote:
I haven't used my DX7S in the studio much lately and figuring out the logistics of inputting and using the data is a bit nervous-making (due to unfamiliarity), though probably doable.
You also mentioned the possibility in an earlier message on this thread that the pitch adjustments on the DX7S may not have the required resolution whether on the coarse or the fine setting. The application of the tables that you shared with us in your follow-up message could be a good test case in this aspect. Would you find an approximate tuning table i.e. within the capability of the DX7S, jarring or colorful?
On Aug 20, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Daniel Forró via < danforcz@...> wrote:
Yes, this is the only source of Yamaha stretch tuning for electronic and electro-acoustic instruments I know. Therefore I have sent the link.
Some Yamaha digital pianos use also similar tunings, but description about exact setting is missing. My Clavinova P500 can select few stretch tunings.
Very interesting that there are a few stretch tunings Daniel.
On Aug 20, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Daniel Forró via < danforcz@...> wrote:
I have found in my archive another table sent to me by George Chakiris, it uses only small differences. I attached it.
The basic question is how stretch tuning will sound with FM generated electronic piano sound, which is far from the real acoustic piano sound, and if it has any reason to use is. I don’t think it can help to improve sound.
What do the columns marked -2 … 8 represent ? Are these the settings for fine tuning on the DX7ii ?
Not microtonal in the strict sense, Wendy Carlos in her album Switched on Bach 2000 used many alternative tunings on synthesizers using her own custom tuning tables and software implementations.
E?
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If anybody enters this, I’d like to have a dump to hear how it sounds.. I really like those kind of notes and did some in the past (not related to tuning, but other nerdy stuff) Benjamin
Probably it would be quite easy to program a max for live patch to enter/edit such things..
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Am 20.08.2021 um 09:56 schrieb Daniel Forró via < danforcz@...>:
I have found in my archive another table sent to me by George Chakiris, it uses only small differences. I attached it.
The basic question is how stretch tuning will sound with FM generated electronic piano sound, which is far from the real acoustic piano sound, and if it has any reason to use is. I don’t think it can help to improve sound.
There was interesting discussion many years ago in microtonal composers circles about the relation between timbre and microtonal tunings. I think the person behind the research is a microtonal music composer William Sethares. Try to start here:
Daniel Forro
<DX7II stretch tuning.jpeg>
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I have found in my archive another table sent to me by George Chakiris, it uses only small differences. I attached it.
The basic question is how stretch tuning will sound with FM generated electronic piano sound, which is far from the real acoustic piano sound, and if it has any reason to use is. I don’t think it can help to improve sound.
There was interesting discussion many years ago in microtonal composers circles about the relation between timbre and microtonal tunings. I think the person behind the research is a microtonal music composer William Sethares. Try to start here:
Daniel Forro
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On Aug 20, 2021, at 3:26, philfrei via < philfrei@...> wrote:
Thanks for the nudge. I was personally emailed a file with settings that contain pitch adjustments for every note, and the equation that generated the numbers. It looks quite interesting, and was developed by the person who contacted me. I assume that the individual reads this list and I'd like to encourage them to share the chart and equation with the full group.
The bottom line, though, is that I don't know yet if there exists a chart on the Railsback effect produced by Yamaha engineers in any of their manuals. I've been a bit more focused on learning whether or not there is an industry-level standard practice on the issue than in testing how it sounds. So far, from the various people who are closer to studio recording tech
than I, there doesn't seem to be much use or awareness of these
pitch adjustments, which kind of surprises me. Maybe it is related to
the ability of an acoustic musician to make adjustments on the fly, as I
learned to do when playing the oboe in the studio.
So, unfortunately, the task of testing how it actually sounds got back-burnered. A related project, more front and center a the moment, is a pilot test I have going for an experiment on whether timbre affects the perceived pitch of notes. I'm collecting data from a handful of people, and need to find a good data-analysis person to ensure that what I'm collecting via the test is suitable for quantifying/modeling. (I'm more a composer/programmer than a scientist.)
I haven't used my DX7S in the studio much lately and figuring out the logistics of inputting and using the data is a bit nervous-making (due to unfamiliarity), though probably doable. I've been doing more with an FM synth I programmed using Java that can produce equivalent voices to those I developed on the DX7. When I get a chance, the plan is to work the Railsback Curve data into the functions that convert MIDI pitches to Hz and vice versa, and see how it sounds. If I get this working, I'll post links to a something that compares the two intonations back-to-back. But it could be another month or more.
>From: Eb Myatt
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 02:19:50 PDT
>Good Morning Phil,
>
>We
haven't received any feedback from you since you last posted. So, did
you manage to resolve the >"Railsback" tuning issue that you discussed?
Please let us know if you have the table for the DX7s >or any other
Yamaha synth ?
>
>Best Regards,
>E?
|
Yes, this is the only source of Yamaha stretch tuning for electronic and electro-acoustic instruments I know. Therefore I have sent the link.
Some Yamaha digital pianos use also similar tunings, but description about exact setting is missing. My Clavinova P500 can select few stretch tunings.
?You can try to ask Yamaha acoustic piano division about tuning, I’m sure they use stretch one.
Daniel Forro
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On Aug 20, 2021, at 3:51, philfrei via < philfrei@...> wrote:
Hi - I just spent some time reviewing the replies on this thread. I was a bit scared of the link Danial Forro posted in July 2, as it "felt" like with all the ads and links and such it could be a source of malware. I may have hit a malware warning on my first try, I can't recall now.
But the download from this link did download a PDF with Railsback numbers.
Here is a screen shot of the table.
<RailsbackYamaha.png>
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Hi - I just spent some time reviewing the replies on this thread. I was a bit scared of the link Danial Forro posted in July 2, as it "felt" like with all the ads and links and such it could be a source of malware. I may have hit a malware warning on my first try, I can't recall now.
But the download from this link did download a PDF with Railsback numbers.
Here is a screen shot of the table.
|
Thanks for the nudge. I was personally emailed a file with settings that contain pitch adjustments for every note, and the equation that generated the numbers. It looks quite interesting, and was developed by the person who contacted me. I assume that the individual reads this list and I'd like to encourage them to share the chart and equation with the full group.
The bottom line, though, is that I don't know yet if there exists a chart on the Railsback effect produced by Yamaha engineers in any of their manuals. I've been a bit more focused on learning whether or not there is an industry-level standard practice on the issue than in testing how it sounds. So far, from the various people who are closer to studio recording tech
than I, there doesn't seem to be much use or awareness of these
pitch adjustments, which kind of surprises me. Maybe it is related to
the ability of an acoustic musician to make adjustments on the fly, as I
learned to do when playing the oboe in the studio.
So, unfortunately, the task of testing how it actually sounds got back-burnered. A related project, more front and center a the moment, is a pilot test I have going for an experiment on whether timbre affects the perceived pitch of notes. I'm collecting data from a handful of people, and need to find a good data-analysis person to ensure that what I'm collecting via the test is suitable for quantifying/modeling. (I'm more a composer/programmer than a scientist.)
I haven't used my DX7S in the studio much lately and figuring out the logistics of inputting and using the data is a bit nervous-making (due to unfamiliarity), though probably doable. I've been doing more with an FM synth I programmed using Java that can produce equivalent voices to those I developed on the DX7. When I get a chance, the plan is to work the Railsback Curve data into the functions that convert MIDI pitches to Hz and vice versa, and see how it sounds. If I get this working, I'll post links to a something that compares the two intonations back-to-back. But it could be another month or more.
>From: Eb Myatt
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 02:19:50 PDT
>Good Morning Phil,
>
>We
haven't received any feedback from you since you last posted. So, did
you manage to resolve the >"Railsback" tuning issue that you discussed?
Please let us know if you have the table for the DX7s >or any other
Yamaha synth ?
>
>Best Regards,
>E?
|
Good Morning Phil,
We haven't received any feedback from you since you last posted. So, did you manage to resolve the "Railsback" tuning issue that you discussed? Please let us know if you have the table for the DX7s or any other Yamaha synth ?
Best Regards,
E??
|
Hi all,
I bought some secondhand keys to fill in some missing spots on my second-hand DX7. I want to clean them before installing them into the keybed as they are very dirty, though I'm concerned the existing grease on the keys will wash off. I'd rather clean them fully anyway as even the grease has accumulated quite a bit of dirt. Does anyone have key grease recommendations?
I've read from a couple different sources (here and here) that white lithium grease works fine. Open to all suggestions. Thanks!
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Re: DX7 Special Edition ROM splash screen text edit?
Thanks, I realized that when I opened the ROM in my hex editor. Now to get some EPROMS and a writer & eraser!
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Re: DX7 Special Edition ROM splash screen text edit?
Yes, you can. Did this some years ago on a friend's DX7 Mk.I with original firmware - put in his name instead of the Yamaha splash screen ;-)
Please see attached pic - the green surrounded area(s) you can use to fill in an own 'message'. All characters you 'don't use' please fill up with a 'Space' (in hex: 20). You're only allowed to use those specific 32 'places' for your message! If you 'move' any of the other code the DX may not? or not properly work anymore!
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Re: DX7 Special Edition ROM splash screen text edit?
Many years ago I have translated similar ASCII codes to different languages in some ATARI ST programs this way, and it was successful.
If there’s no checksum somewhere in the end of the BIN file, it can work. In the worst case DX7 will not boot...
Daniel Forró
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On Aug 12, 2021, at 1:11, ethan@... wrote:
Hi there,
I opened up the DX7 SER7 .bin file in a hex editor and was wondering, is it possible to change the splash screen text from
WELCOME TO DX7
SPECIAL EDITION
to something else by editing the .bin in a hex editor? Assuming I stick to 16 characters per line.
Thanks!
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DX7 Special Edition ROM splash screen text edit?
Hi there,
I opened up the DX7 SER7 .bin file in a hex editor and was wondering, is it possible to change the splash screen text from
WELCOME TO? DX7
SPECIAL EDITION
to something else by editing the .bin in a hex editor? Assuming I stick to 16 characters per line.
Thanks!
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Michael Whocares