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Analyzing Trinitite with different methods.
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Red Trinitite. Some have said the red color in some Trinitite is there because it was stored in metal drums which rusted, then transferred the rust to the Trinitite. Others claim it is copper, from the multitude of heavy copper wires carrying signals to and from the shot tower. Red Trinitite is very interesting simply? because it is different from the far more common green variety.  Geo>K0FF ?
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Are you still able to get a meaningful spectrum from the trinitite with amateur probes?? It's over 70 years old.
I had a piece which was given to dad in the mid 50's.? His boss collected it shortly after the 'event' at Trinity before everything was plowed under.? I remember at the time, the clicking from it would get your attention with a CK1026 glass GM tube (home brew GM detector).? Over the years, I tracked its diminishing activity (with better instruments).? Wish I still had it, but lost in the 2012 forest fire.
Dve - W ?LEV
Red Trinitite. Some have said the red color in some Trinitite is there because it was stored in metal drums which rusted, then transferred the rust to the Trinitite. Others claim it is copper, from the multitude of heavy copper wires carrying signals to and from the shot tower. Red Trinitite is very interesting simply? because it is different from the far more common green variety.  Geo>K0FF ?
-- Dave - W?LEV
Just Let Darwin WorkJust Think
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Hi Dave, yes I think so. That's not what I'm doing but just by coincidence the 32 keV from Cs-137 decay is still very evident. We can assume the 662 is there too, I'm just not looking that high.
Now that we finally have access to high resolution room temp sensors, we can delve a little deeper into the X-rays and maybe make some conclusions.
Is anyone presently here deep into Trinitite analysis? (Gamma or XRF either one)
Geo>K0FF
----- Original Message ----- From: David Eckhardt <davearea51a@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Sat, 08 Feb 2020 19:49:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
Are you still able to get a meaningful spectrum from the trinitite with amateur probes?? It's over 70 years old.
I had a piece which was given to dad in the mid 50's.? His boss collected it shortly after the 'event' at Trinity before everything was plowed under.? I remember at the time, the clicking from it would get your attention with a CK1026 glass GM tube (home brew GM detector).? Over the years, I tracked its diminishing activity (with better instruments).? Wish I still had it, but lost in the 2012 forest fire.
Dve - W ?LEV
Red Trinitite.
Some have said the red color in some Trinitite is there because it was stored in metal drums which rusted, then transferred the rust to the Trinitite.
Others claim it is copper, from the multitude of heavy copper wires carrying signals to and from the shot tower.
Red Trinitite is very interesting simply? because it is different from the far more common green variety.
Geo>K0FF
?
--
Dave - W?LEV
Just Let Darwin WorkJust Think
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Here is my latest best effort with trinitite using Am241 as an exciter.
Only 3 elements really stand out: Fe U Ba.? There are other possibilities such as Sn and Cs but I can't say for sure without a much longer run.? Note that many of the peaks are to be ignored because they come from the Am241 and the Pb shield.
Charles
Hi Dave, yes I think so. That's not what I'm doing but just by coincidence the 32 keV from Cs-137 decay is still very evident. We can assume the 662 is there too, I'm just not looking that high.
Now that we finally have access to high resolution room temp sensors, we can delve a little deeper into the X-rays and maybe make some conclusions.
Is anyone presently here deep into Trinitite analysis? (Gamma or XRF either one)
Geo>K0FF
Are you still able to get a meaningful spectrum from the trinitite with amateur probes?? It's over 70 years old.
I had a piece which was given to dad in the mid 50's.? His boss collected it shortly after the 'event' at Trinity before everything was plowed under.? I remember at the time, the clicking from it would get your attention with a CK1026 glass GM tube (home brew GM detector).? Over the years, I tracked its diminishing activity (with better instruments).? Wish I still had it, but lost in the 2012 forest fire.
Dve - W ?LEV
Red Trinitite. Some have said the red color in some Trinitite is there because it was stored in metal drums which rusted, then transferred the rust to the Trinitite. Others claim it is copper, from the multitude of heavy copper wires carrying signals to and from the shot tower. Red Trinitite is very interesting simply? because it is different from the far more common green variety. ![Red-12_small.jpg]( "Red-12_small.jpg") Geo>K0FF ?
--
Dave - W?LEV
Just Let Darwin WorkJust Think
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On 2/8/20 4:49 PM, David Eckhardt wrote: Are you still able to get a meaningful spectrum from the trinitite
_with amateur probes_?? It's over 70 years old. I think it depends on what you mean by "meaningful".? I have not tried XRF of Trinitite, but I have done some Gamma spec on my specimens.? I have used a Scionix 2x2NaI(Tl) probe with the UCS-20 MCA as well as a 22mmx25mm CsI(Tl) probe with Theremino adapter and software. I almost hate to attach this example because it is very sloppy and not properly calibrated.? This scan of a small 4.3 gram specimen was done in open air; no lead castle, no supplemental shielding and no background removal.? This was a 7 hour scan and room temperature went wherever it wanted to go.? I have made no effort to identify any of the isotopes; it was nothing more than a preliminary scan of a new-to-me specimen just to see what I could see - ? Just a quick'n'dirty preliminary look.? It was done with my Scionix 2x2 NaI(Tl) probe and the UCS-20 MCA.? I saved the UCS-20 data file and plotted it with GnuPlot so I could play with intervals and data ranges. But even with with that said, I think it is apparent a careful setup, properly calibrated and attention paid to temperature drift would reveal the general nature of what radioactivity remains (within the limits of a NaI(Tl) probe).? For sure the Cs137 is easy to find, as is the Am241.? Other stuff is there, too, but accurate calibration is missing. For reference, the Scionix 2x2 NaI(Tl) probe I obtained from Luuk yields an honest 6.8% resolution at 662 keV, and that is about the best I will be doing any time soon. I have been intending to take a more serious look at my Trinitite specimens but right now my "rad lab" is in a serious state of disarray.? I need to get it cleaned up, organized and shielding back in place before I can try to do much more.? I have been getting serious Probe Envy looking at Charles' and Geo's results but truthfully, right now I can't even effectively use what I already have. AnotherWally -- AnotherWally anotherwally@...
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On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 03:11 PM, Charles David Young wrote:
?
Only 3 elements really stand out: Fe U Ba.?
Nice display, the Fe Kb1 line is well placed. Have you expanded the? X-axis to include 59.5 yet? I'm interpreting the vertical black dotted lines are pretty certain and the lighter, smaller lines are under consideration still. Are you doing smoothing at all? If so in the DPP or the Theremino program? If you do it in DPP, does it change the stored data or is it only temporary when invoked? Geo
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Hi A Wally!
What you have is exactly what I have when it comes to 662 etc. Anything over 100 keV and I'm right back on the UCS-20 with a 2X2 Scionix and feel darned lucky to have it.
When you do get back in the saddle with your Gamma Spec, I will be glad to backstop you on any tough samples, to the best of my ability. Right now I'm just duffing around and learning this new generation gear.
Yesterday started my first 24 hour scan (Gamma spec not XRF) of a very weak source and was really surprised how well it turned out.
Geo
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----- Original Message ----- From: AnotherWally <anotherwally@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 00:53:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite On 2/8/20 4:49 PM, David Eckhardt wrote: Are you still able to get a meaningful spectrum from the trinitite
_with amateur probes_?? It's over 70 years old. I think it depends on what you mean by "meaningful".? I have not tried XRF of Trinitite, but I have done some Gamma spec on my specimens.? I have used a Scionix 2x2NaI(Tl) probe with the UCS-20 MCA as well as a 22mmx25mm CsI(Tl) probe with Theremino adapter and software. I almost hate to attach this example because it is very sloppy and not properly calibrated.? This scan of a small 4.3 gram specimen was done in open air; no lead castle, no supplemental shielding and no background removal.? This was a 7 hour scan and room temperature went wherever it wanted to go.? I have made no effort to identify any of the isotopes; it was nothing more than a preliminary scan of a new-to-me specimen just to see what I could see - ? Just a quick'n'dirty preliminary look.? It was done with my Scionix 2x2 NaI(Tl) probe and the UCS-20 MCA.? I saved the UCS-20 data file and plotted it with GnuPlot so I could play with intervals and data ranges. But even with with that said, I think it is apparent a careful setup, properly calibrated and attention paid to temperature drift would reveal the general nature of what radioactivity remains (within the limits of a NaI(Tl) probe).? For sure the Cs137 is easy to find, as is the Am241.? Other stuff is there, too, but accurate calibration is missing. For reference, the Scionix 2x2 NaI(Tl) probe I obtained from Luuk yields an honest 6.8% resolution at 662 keV, and that is about the best I will be doing any time soon. I have been intending to take a more serious look at my Trinitite specimens but right now my "rad lab" is in a serious state of disarray.? I need to get it cleaned up, organized and shielding back in place before I can try to do much more.? I have been getting serious Probe Envy looking at Charles' and Geo's results but truthfully, right now I can't even effectively use what I already have. AnotherWally -- AnotherWally anotherwally@...
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Yes, that is correct, George.? The heavy black lines are what I consider firmly identified.
I normally expand the lower region and leave off the Bremsstrahlung and 59.5 peak to the right.
I never intentionally use smoothing.? I have not seen such a DPP option and I seriously doubt it would affect the stored data in any case.? In Theremino I have removed all smoothing unless you consider drawing a line from one peak to neighboring peaks smoothing.
Charles
On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 03:11 PM, Charles David Young wrote:
?
Only 3 elements really stand out: Fe U Ba.?
Nice display, the Fe Kb1 line is well placed. Have you expanded the? X-axis to include 59.5 yet?
I'm interpreting the vertical black dotted lines are pretty certain and the lighter, smaller lines are under consideration still.
Are you doing smoothing at all? If so in the DPP or the Theremino program? If you do it in DPP, does it change the stored data or is it only temporary when invoked?
Geo
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OK, guys, I shall have to revisit my sample - gamma spec.? It never occured to me to try XRF with it, but likely need to configure more than one AM-241 pill for that.
Has anyone tried using the old power germanium transistors with reverse a biased junction as a detector??
Dave - W?LEV?
On 2/8/20 4:49 PM, David Eckhardt wrote:
> Are you still able to get a meaningful spectrum from the trinitite
> _with amateur probes_?? It's over 70 years old.
I think it depends on what you mean by "meaningful".? I have not tried
XRF of Trinitite, but I have done some Gamma spec on my specimens.? I
have used a Scionix 2x2NaI(Tl) probe with the UCS-20 MCA as well as a
22mmx25mm CsI(Tl) probe with Theremino adapter and software.
I almost hate to attach this example because it is very sloppy and not
properly calibrated.? This scan of a small 4.3 gram specimen was done in
open air; no lead castle, no supplemental shielding and no background
removal.? This was a 7 hour scan and room temperature went wherever it
wanted to go.? I have made no effort to identify any of the isotopes; it
was nothing more than a preliminary scan of a new-to-me specimen just to
see what I could see - ? Just a quick'n'dirty preliminary look.? It was
done with my Scionix 2x2 NaI(Tl) probe and the UCS-20 MCA.? I saved the
UCS-20 data file and plotted it with GnuPlot so I could play with
intervals and data ranges.
But even with with that said, I think it is apparent a careful setup,
properly calibrated and attention paid to temperature drift would reveal
the general nature of what radioactivity remains (within the limits of a
NaI(Tl) probe).? For sure the Cs137 is easy to find, as is the Am241.?
Other stuff is there, too, but accurate calibration is missing. For
reference, the Scionix 2x2 NaI(Tl) probe I obtained from Luuk yields an
honest 6.8% resolution at 662 keV, and that is about the best I will be
doing any time soon.
I have been intending to take a more serious look at my Trinitite
specimens but right now my "rad lab" is in a serious state of disarray.?
I need to get it cleaned up, organized and shielding back in place
before I can try to do much more.? I have been getting serious Probe
Envy looking at Charles' and Geo's results but truthfully, right now I
can't even effectively use what I already have.
AnotherWally
--
AnotherWally
anotherwally@...
-- Dave - W?LEV
Just Let Darwin WorkJust Think
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Good, thanks and it looks fine, keep it up. I did my first 24 hour run with Si-PIN in Gamma Scan mode (no XRF exciting from internal or external) on one a weakly radioactive target over the weekend with critical calibration before and after- good news, no drift noticed at all. Sweet.
If anyone is tempted to buy the Amptek CdTe on eBay from Bulgaria, a little warning the ad picture is cut right out of he Amptek catalog...¡.caveat emptor. Geo>K0FF
----- Original Message ----- From: Charles David Young <charlesdavidyoung@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:19:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
Yes, that is correct, George.? The heavy black lines are what I consider firmly identified.
I normally expand the lower region and leave off the Bremsstrahlung and 59.5 peak to the right.
I never intentionally use smoothing.? I have not seen such a DPP option and I seriously doubt it would affect the stored data in any case.? In Theremino I have removed all smoothing unless you consider drawing a line from one peak to neighboring peaks smoothing.
Charles
On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 03:11 PM, Charles David Young wrote:
? Only 3 elements really stand out: Fe U Ba.?
Nice display, the Fe Kb1 line is well placed. Have you expanded the? X-axis to include 59.5 yet?
I'm interpreting the vertical black dotted lines are pretty certain and the lighter, smaller lines are under consideration still.
Are you doing smoothing at all? If so in the DPP or the Theremino program? If you do it in DPP, does it change the stored data or is it only temporary when invoked?
Geo
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Geo,
I agree Geo its busy, confusing and adds nothing. It would be nice
to ?turn off any elements that are not ID¡¯d as It messes up the energy grid
lines, and is confusing about what¡¯s actually there. Moreover, using a pre-conceived
list of elements is a very poor way to interpret data as there are other interferences
that could also fit that data that will be missed.
Dud
?
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From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2020 10:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
?
On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 03:11 PM, Charles David Young wrote:
Only 3 elements really stand out: Fe U Ba.?
Nice display, the Fe Kb1 line is well placed. Have you
expanded the? X-axis to include 59.5 yet?
I'm interpreting the vertical black dotted lines are pretty certain and the
lighter, smaller lines are under consideration still.
Are you doing smoothing at all? If so in the DPP or the Theremino program? If
you do it in DPP, does it change the stored data or is it only temporary when
invoked?
Geo
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Not Trinitite, but a tool I use for calibration of the instruments when testing Trinitite. Uranium L and y (gamma) Lines:  Geo>K0FF
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Ok this one IS Trinitite, but an unusual form, perhaps unique, I suspect this has no Europium, etc. but does have the usual plutonium daughters and Cs-137 fission fragments. Geo>K0FF https://www.qsl.net/k/k0ff//Trinitite%20Ant%20Hill%20Sand%20Analysis/Closeup1.jpg 
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Pretty cool Geo. Attached is a part of the HP-Ge scan of trinitite in the Pittauerova paper, the peaks in grey are x-rays. Interesting.?
Steve
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Ok this one IS Trinitite, but an unusual form, perhaps unique, I suspect this has no gadolinium, Si, Ki etc. but does have the usual plutonium daughters and Cs-137 fission fragments.
Geo>K0FF
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Send the mca files with your pictures and a brief write up of the set
up.
Dud
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From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2020 12:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
?
Ok this one IS Trinitite, but an unusual form, perhaps
unique, I suspect this has no gadolinium, Si, Ki etc. but does have the usual
plutonium daughters and Cs-137 fission fragments.
Geo>K0FF
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Yep, that's the one and only I've found too. Pretty sure that was Jon R's work for Bill K-s book.
Sure would like to see many more HPGe Trinititte scans, especially of matereril that is not sand.
Geo
----- Original Message ----- From: WILLIAM S Dubyk <sdubyk@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:29:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
Pretty cool Geo. Attached is a part of the HP-Ge scan of trinitite in the Pittauerova paper, the peaks in grey are x-rays. Interesting.?
Steve
Ok this one IS Trinitite, but an unusual form, perhaps unique, I suspect this has no gadolinium, Si, Ki etc. but does have the usual plutonium daughters and Cs-137 fission fragments.
Geo>K0FF
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Concerning the 13-17 keV X-Rays in Trinitite. When we detect Np- X-Rays, where do they come from?One way is from XRFing Neptunium element by adding energy to it.The other obvious way is by radioactive decay of Am-241. Normally a newly created nucleus radiates some energy after the transition to the new element as it settles into its most permanent state, some of which excites the inner electron shells of that same atom, causing a sort of auto-XRF effect. For neptunium it's the L lines of 13.944 and 17.75 that are of most interest to us, as well as the 20.785 keV Ly1 lines.Other radioactive decays can lead to Np-237-? they are Pu-237 U-237, neither of these are likely to be encountered in the amateur lab.When we see Uranium X-Rays, where do they come from?Well, there are a lot of uranium isotopes around, the natural ones that we see a lot are U-234, U235 and U-238. None of these produce U X-Rays when they decay,To my knowledge, we can only see U X-Rays is by deliberate or accidental XRF, and from the decay of Pa-234 and Pa-234m.Pa-234 and Pa-234m occur in the natural decay chain of U-238, by far the most abundant of the U isotopes in nature , both coming from Th-234, the immediate daughter of U-238.. Th-234 leads to Pa-234m at 100%, Being a metastable isotope (denoted by the small m after the numbers), this decays away rather quickly, 98.8% of the time directly to U-234, and giving us that unmistakable 1.001 MeV marker, while the other 0.2% it decays to Pa-234, which itself eventually decays to U-234. It is especially the L lines of uranium- La1- @13.61, [email protected] and Ly-1 @20.167 keV the newly created U-234 atom that gives us the auto-XRF.
The Trinitite Tie-In
Most Trinitite gives us the familiar 3-little-bears X-Rays down at the low end. Up until now they have remained a blur in the Home Rad Lab, really impossible to tell what is exactly going on there with sodium iodide probes.
I think we now can and should try to determine which of those lines come from Pu-241 decay to Am-241 decay to Np-237, and? the direct decay of Pu-238/239/240 to uranium isotopes.?
Geo>K0FF
(corrections welcomed)
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Attached is a fresh .mca scan of the larger one of the 2 pieces of unusual Trinitite. This scan is of a surface, the earlier scan above (just a picture) was of an edge. The edge is most interesting looking and probably tells a story.
We have two know peaks to tweak calibration, 59.5 which I believe to be the daughter product of Pu-241 = Am-241.
The Pu-241 has a half life of 14.4 years so has undergone 5+ half-lives, meaning it is barely still there. .Fortunately the Am-241 daughter lasts a lot longer.
The next known peaks are from fission product Cs-137 = Ba-137m. m means metastable = fast decays, half life is 2.5 minutes.?
Some thoughts-
Where there is Cs-137, there is often Sr-90. We have a way to detect Sr-90 in the presence of Cs-137, they have similar half-lives.
Where there is Pu-241 there are probably other Pu isotopes, the one I'm interested in proving is Pu-239. Fortunately it is long lasting, and some day 239 will be the only thing radioactive left in this sample.
When I get confirmation from the group that this is indeed Trinitite, pictures will be posted.
Geo>K0FF
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Here is scan again ref message #773
Geo
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