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On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 06:04 PM, Dude wrote:
Send the mca file
Dud
See message #774 and here's another one-
The calibration on this final run is close but can probably be tweaked:
?
Geo
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On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 06:48 PM, <GEOelectronics@...> wrote:
Send the mca file
Dud
Here are 2 more, these are XRF, the 63 second one is a XRF calibration run with Sr element, then the long run was XRF of the Trinitite. There were clues in the earlier? gamma spec that indicated a closer look was in order. Geo>K0FF
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more pics of the metallic Trinitite This is the first CdTe in its chamber. The "lid" is a lead (Pb) Half-Brick that slides over the opening.  This is a different CdTe, same as the first one, it has its own chamber too, but much smaller, only the sample and sensor portion of the probe goes into it. Usually one is set to run 0-200 keV the other one to 0-400 keV (max range). Both run at the same time, independently. The dots on the sample is a paint marker to identify the edge or surface being tested. Thanks to Al Shinn for that tip.  Next post will be some XRF of the green glassy type of Trinitite- has anyone bothered to analyze the non radioactive elements present? Geo>K0FF
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Now my largest green-glass Trinitite sample tests. Trying to determine the "best" settings to detect good XRF on the Si-PIN sensor: This test is? XRF by X-Ray tube at different kVp levels and current levels.Other tests will use AmX8 exciter and anything else I can think of.
All the settings agree, there is considerable barium element present. Some is from Cs-137 beta decay (Ba-137m) and is responsible for the familiar 662 keV peak we all use for calibration. Some could be old fission products and some could have been in the soil before Trinity.  A few different X-Ray setting results .mca attached. There should be enough data here to really determine the sweet spot for settings, taking into account peak broadenings, deadtime, and runtime. Geo>K0FF
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Some of the barium may be from Baratol, a barium nitrate/TNT mix that what used for the explosive lens for the device. Low velocity stuff.
Steve
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Now my largest green-glass Trinitite sample tests.
Trying to determine the "best" settings to detect good XRF on the Si-PIN sensor:
This test is? XRF
by X-Ray tube at different kVp levels and current levels.Other tests will use AmX8 exciter and anything else I can think of.
All the settings agree, there is considerable barium element present. Some is from Cs-137 beta decay (Ba-137m) and is responsible for the familiar 662 keV peak we all use for calibration. Some could be old fission products and some could have been in
the soil before Trinity.
A few different X-Ray setting results .mca attached. There should be enough data here to really determine the sweet spot for settings, taking into account peak broadenings, deadtime, and runtime.
Geo>K0FF
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----- Original Message ----- From: WILLIAM S Dubyk <sdubyk@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:58:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
Some of the barium may be from Baratol, a barium nitrate/TNT mix that what used for the explosive lens for the device. Low velocity stuff.
Steve
Now my largest green-glass Trinitite sample tests. Trying to determine the "best" settings to detect good XRF on the Si-PIN sensor: This test is? XRF
by X-Ray tube at different kVp levels and current levels.Other tests will use AmX8 exciter and anything else I can think of.
All the settings agree, there is considerable barium element present. Some is from Cs-137 beta decay (Ba-137m) and is responsible for the familiar 662 keV peak we all use for calibration. Some could be old fission products and some could have been in the soil before Trinity. A few different X-Ray setting results .mca attached. There should be enough data here to really determine the sweet spot for settings, taking into account peak broadenings, deadtime, and runtime. Geo>K0FF
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Geo,
That dead time is pretty high. Its best to Set the tube ?current
to keep the dead time around 10% or less than 35K cps. First shot should use
full voltage then set the Kv’s ?to target the absorption edge of element range of
interest? say about 1.5 the times the edge. Use filters for that edge to target
the element of interest. ?Good luck sorting out Ba from decay, XRF and that in the
soil.
Dud
?
?
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From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020 1:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
?
Now my largest green-glass Trinitite sample tests.
Trying to determine the "best" settings to detect good XRF on the
Si-PIN sensor:
This test is?XRF by X-Ray tube at different kVp levels and
current levels.Other tests will use AmX8 exciter and anything else I can think
of.
All the settings agree, there is considerable barium element present.
Some is from Cs-137 beta decay (Ba-137m) and is responsible for the familiar
662 keV peak we all use for calibration. Some could be old fission products and
some could have been in the soil before Trinity.
A few different X-Ray setting results .mca attached. There should be enough
data here to really determine the sweet spot for settings, taking into account
peak broadenings, deadtime, and runtime.
Geo>K0FF
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Refer message 766 and 772 Analyzing Trinitite with emphasis on the Uranium and Neptunium Ly1 peaks. Preparation; First I did the analysis of Uranium K and L lines mentioned in message #766. Then I did same for an Am-241 source. Next the two were overlaid and notations made to show the subtle but measurable shift in the La and Lb lines and the more noticeable shift in the Ly1 lines.(y= gamma, third letter in Greek).  So all that is needed to finish the experiment is a good scan of Trinitite on the Si-PIN with the same settings as the? Am-241, and those two graphs overlaid. This one happens to be some Red Trinitite, as the big green one is in another chamber being tested on a long 24 hour run.  Why does it matter if the lines are U or Np? It is just one step in testing Trinitite for Plutonium.? we already know Am-241 is a decay product of Pu-241, and there are only 3 easy ways to get Uranium X-Rays- 1:Decay of U-238, to the stage where U-234 is created 2: Deliberate XRFing Uranium, or unintentionally XRFing it by a random energy source. 3: Decay of Plutonium or one of its higher progeny to Uranium. Remember, natural decay induced X-Rays come from the daughter at the moment of creation, not from the parent. How many other ways can we test for the presence of Plutonium? Any species will do, as long as its half life is long enough for there to be some left. Hint: one way to at least make progress is Alpha Spectroscopy. My plans are to marry a silicon Alpha detector to an Amptek DP5 processor and hope for results. An external preamp is needed, I have those in NIM, discreet, removed from surplus equipment and in this ingenious device made by a company called The Nucleus.  Equipment manufacturer by Spectrum Techniques today is so similar to other models made by The Nucleus that I suspect a link there. Geo>K0FF
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Great Trinitite gamma spec charts by Pittauerrova et.al.
Link
There is a glaring error in one chart, can you find it?
Geo
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Steve D's lump vs Geo's blob.XRF purity? Fe investigation. 30kVp-25uA. Si-PIN. run times similar, time adjusted as needed so Fe peaks are same height. Difference in hump is aluminum filter .adjusted to get larger beam for Steve's larger sample. His is also much? thicker. White ghost is my Blob.Blue is Fe peak selected by Peak Search program. Steve's scan shows some different peaks than mine.  .mca attached for the lump. Geo>K0FF
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Hello forum,
I enjoyed reading your posts on the Red Trinitite...
Briefly,
I am a avid collector of Trinitite, Atomic material from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I? have many specimens from H. Baldwin collection and have emailed communication with W. Kolb.?
I have some very unusual pieces, the one that stands out to me I put as my profile picture. Deeply embedded metallic spheres and chunks of metal...
None of my specimens have been tested, other that the analysis done by scientists who have worked with the examples that Baldwin provided to them.
My asking is that I would love to have an non destructive analysis done to this unique sample...and in so, would donate a Red Trinitite sample for a written copy of the test results for my records and use. Thank you if any interest, Cheers.
TM?
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Yes I would be happy to do the analysis.
George Dowell 56791 Rivere Au Sel Pl New London MO 63459
I'll also forward you copies of my Trinitite analysis of samples taken from ant hill mounds at Ground Zero.
Attached is one of my photo micrograph of one of the tektites I named "The Plutonium Teardrop"
Geo
----- Original Message ----- From: bchhunter98@... To: [email protected]Sent: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 13:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
Hello forum,
I enjoyed reading your posts on the Red Trinitite...
Briefly,
I am a avid collector of Trinitite, Atomic material from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I? have many specimens from H. Baldwin collection and have emailed communication with W. Kolb.?
I have some very unusual pieces, the one that stands out to me I put as my profile picture. Deeply embedded metallic spheres and chunks of metal...
None of my specimens have been tested, other that the analysis done by scientists who have worked with the examples that Baldwin provided to them.
My asking is that I would love to have an non destructive analysis done to this unique sample...and in so, would donate a Red Trinitite sample for a written copy of the test results for my records and use. Thank you if any interest, Cheers.
TM?
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Hi TM,
I would be happy to do a detailed XRF of your specimen.? I can provide you with sample scans to show you what I can do.? Attached is a trinitite scan that I recently did.
Note that with my XRF I can show peaks up to about 100keV.? Beyond that I would use NaI to see higher energy isotopes.
Charles
Hello forum,
I enjoyed reading your posts on the Red Trinitite...
Briefly,
I am a avid collector of Trinitite, Atomic material from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I? have many specimens from H. Baldwin collection and have emailed communication with W. Kolb.?
I have some very unusual pieces, the one that stands out to me I put as my profile picture. Deeply embedded metallic spheres and chunks of metal...
None of my specimens have been tested, other that the analysis done by scientists who have worked with the examples that Baldwin provided to them.
My asking is that I would love to have an non destructive analysis done to this unique sample...and in so, would donate a Red Trinitite sample for a written copy of the test results for my records and use. Thank you if any interest, Cheers.
TM?
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TM,
I
can run a quantitative XRF analysis on your specimen and have a background in
nuclear forensics having worked on post-det debris analysis at the Nevada Test
Site. Red Trinitite is pretty unusual and a nice piece for your collection.
Give
me a call or email dfemer@...
702-521-8577
Dud
?
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From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of bchhunter98@...
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 10:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
?
Hello forum,
I enjoyed reading your posts on the Red Trinitite...
Briefly,
I am a avid collector of Trinitite, Atomic material from Hiroshima and
Nagasaki. I? have many specimens from H. Baldwin collection and have
emailed communication with W. Kolb.?
I have some very unusual pieces, the one that stands out to me I put as my
profile picture. Deeply embedded metallic spheres and chunks of metal...
None of my specimens have been tested, other that the analysis done by
scientists who have worked with the examples that Baldwin provided to them.
My asking is that I would love to have an non destructive analysis done to this
unique sample...and in so, would donate a Red Trinitite sample for a written
copy of the test results for my records and use. Thank you if any interest,
Cheers.
TM?
|
Geo,
I have to ask, I have never seen Trinitite look like the samples with the painted dots, maybe because of the magnification but again I have not seen any without broken edges that show the typical porous glassy appearance.
I must be missing something here. I created a Trinitite photo album on this site but not sure how members can view or contribute or if they are desirable.
TM
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TM, Tektites are formed in freefall (in the atmosphere) and cool to solid before hitting the ground. Notice the clear glass like appearance and inclusions both inside and on the surface. The dots are actually spheres of melt glass that collided with the falling, already solidified base. These teardrops are actually broken halves of a spinning dogbone shape which formed in the cloud from a rapidly spinning glob. Many pieces of ground based Trinitite contain perfectly formed spheres of dark (appear black) tektites (genesis from iron I'm told), some I have are inside the still hot but solidified surface craters that have already burst from hot gasses from the soil.?
Red Trinitite was formed by the jets of copper plasma travelling down the sensor feed coaxial cable bundles as can be seen in the first few microseconds of the flashball forming. These look like spikes on the still small ball. Steel guy wires on other tower shots exhibit similar spike features.
Only a small portion of the plutonium was consumed, the rest still exists in the Trinitite and somewhat in the fallout. Unlike the radio-iodine's, cesium and strontium fission products which would gasify easily,? plutonium and uranium probably didn't propagate to far away places (my opinion).
Ground based Trinitite contains the Europium isotopes, which were mostly formed from natural europium in the soil by neutron activation, helped by water in the soil from early morning rainfall before the shot. Ordinary water is of course hydrogenous (hydrogen bearing) and hydrogen is a good moderator (slowing down of) fast neutrons. Moderated neutrons have a much easier time of activating other atoms than fast ones.
Geo
----- Original Message ----- From: bchhunter98@... To: [email protected]Sent: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 19:49:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
Geo,
I have to ask, I have never seen Trinitite look like the samples with the painted dots, maybe because of the magnification but again I have not seen any without broken edges that show the typical porous glassy appearance.
I must be missing something here.
TM
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Geo,
The plutonium teardrop is wonderful...beautiful indeed.
My question was for the examples in Feb 18th post #814 - they do not resemble any of the typical Trinitite examples I have seen, where these obtained via H. Baldwin?
Thanks,
TM
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OK I'm with you now TM. No those are solid metal (mild steel), probably from the bomb casing and/or the tower. I know of 3 such samples only and have tested all 3 for fission product inclusion. Only the surface was melted, except for one sample which is roundish and melted all the way around (I named it the blob), as if it was spinning in a great heat, but even then not liquified.
Geo
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Good
summary Geo. Technically Trinitite is the surface soils flash melted in-situ by
the fireball prompt gamma and x-rays. The beads and dumb bells are fallout
which has both a volatile and refractory component which separates out over
time and distance. Fallout ranges from mm size beads, dumbbells and tear drops to
nm size particulates. The larger heavier material (tear drops and dumb bells) drop
out down along the shaft while the lighter refractory material is carried further
downwind segregating by size and wt as spherical beads. These are seen as dark spherical
beads decreasing in size as you go down range in the plume and are easy to find
even a mile or so away. The finer refractory’s and the volatiles are carried
long distances and are what most would consider the proper fallout. The
isotopic composition also changes with distance in the plume and the distance
from SGZ in the trinitite.
Neat
stuff I hope they don’t make any more.
Dud
?
?
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From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 5:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
?
Tektites
are formed in freefall (in the atmosphere) and cool to solid before hitting the
ground. Notice the clear glass like appearance and inclusions both inside and
on the surface. The dots are actually spheres of melt glass that collided with
the falling, already solidified base. These teardrops are actually broken
halves of a spinning dogbone shape which formed in the cloud from a rapidly
spinning glob. Many pieces of ground based Trinitite contain perfectly formed
spheres of dark (appear black) tektites (genesis from iron I'm told), some I have
are inside the still hot but solidified surface craters that have already burst
from hot gasses from the soil.?
Red
Trinitite was formed by the jets of copper plasma travelling down the sensor
feed coaxial cable bundles as can be seen in the first few microseconds of the
flashball forming. These look like spikes on the still small ball. Steel guy
wires on other tower shots exhibit similar spike features.
Only
a small portion of the plutonium was consumed, the rest still exists in the
Trinitite and somewhat in the fallout. Unlike the radio-iodine's, cesium and
strontium fission products which would gasify easily,? plutonium and
uranium probably didn't propagate to far away places (my opinion).
Ground
based Trinitite contains the Europium isotopes, which were mostly formed from
natural europium in the soil by neutron activation, helped by water in the soil
from early morning rainfall before the shot. Ordinary water is of course
hydrogenous (hydrogen bearing) and hydrogen is a good moderator (slowing down
of) fast neutrons. Moderated neutrons have a much easier time of activating
other atoms than fast ones.
-----
Original Message -----
From: bchhunter98@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 19:49:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
Geo,
I have to ask, I have never seen Trinitite look like the samples with the
painted dots, maybe because of the magnification but again I have not seen any
without broken edges that show the typical porous glassy appearance.
I must be missing something here.
TM
|
What
is post #814? Can you post a picture?
Dud
?
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From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of bchhunter98@...
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2020 5:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
?
Geo,
The plutonium teardrop is wonderful...beautiful indeed.
My question was for the examples in Feb 18th post #814 - they do not resemble
any of the typical Trinitite examples I have seen, where these obtained via H.
Baldwin?
Thanks,
TM
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SCOTT CAMPBELL
