Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
Where are you keeping the plane? Geoff Gartshore Zenith CH200 GCUD Waterloo, Ontario?
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On Oct 20, 2021, at 7:29 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
yes sir. it has a transponder indeed.
how about edenvale?
or brampton?
regardless, we will figure it out.
wish me good luck. my mission is to drive from my place 2.1hrs via car to where my partner and i will check the plane, do a run up and off we go. friday looks like the only good day in the next 10 days to make the voyage.
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
Sent: October 20, 2021 6:29 PM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
Sure. ? ? We could connect at Guelph Airpark sometime- unless you have a transponder…?
Geoff Gartshore
Zenith CH200 GCUD
Waterloo, Ontario?
On Oct 20, 2021, at 5:45 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
Maybe one day next warm season I can come see you in person with the Hanuman!?
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 5:11:57 PM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
I flew out of Guelph - paved runways and snow clearing. ? ?I have heard of XAirs on skis ((out in Winnipeg) so it’s not impossible. ??
Geoff Gartshore
Zenith CH200 GCUD
Waterloo, Ontario?
On Oct 20, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
Did you use winter skiis or always have tires even in the winter?
I fly off grass so if there is snow, I don't I'll be able to take off and touch down on the grass.
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 9:56:55 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
I flew my XAir year round so no experience with preservatives etc. ? ?I turned my prop over several times as part of each pre start checklist. ?
AMEs and engine manufacturers recommend minimum of one hour flying per week at normal operating temps for best engine health. ?
Running engine on ground for 10 min every so often does more harm than good - promoting condensation, moisture buildup and corrosion. ??
Cheers. ?
Geoff Gartshore
Zenith CH200 GCUD
Waterloo, Ontario?
On Oct 19, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
I ended up buying the 2009 X air Hanuman with the 2nd generation Jabiru 2200 with 139hrs.
I did a leakdown test and all cylinders read the same. I put 80psi in and the result was 76psi. I guess that's pretty good.
I got a little air passing through to the crankcase vent but I think it was because the rings were starting to contract since we didn't do the test when it was really hot.
My intent was to perform the test immediately after a 45minute flight but then we saw some other rans s-7s and starting talking to the owners, so the temperature dropped to about warm, if that and not hot.
I feel more confident with this jabiru motor now.
Can you confirm that:
I should turn the propeller by hand in its regular direction to move oil to higher locations within the combustion chamber prior to starting it when it's cold outside or any time the engine has not been started for more than one week?
During cold wintertime when I am not flying for about 3-4 months, I should turn the propeller every 10 days ?
Some say don't touch anything during storage because by turning prop by hand will end up scuffing cylinder walls, or should I do it?
Also, if I don't fly for 3-4 months during cold wintertime, I spray LPS lubricant into all cylinders then put plugs back?
Then change oil in the spring once I start flying again?
With the Sensenich ground adjustable prop on a heavier than normal pitch setting, the plane took off in no time with two full grown gentlemen.
Lastly, any tips on how to cut and align and mount the propeller spinner, to finish off the aesthetics at the front?
Justin
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:28:04 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
The gentleman who had his Hanuman with 3/4 tank fuel and two adults also had a ground adjustable prop and oil cooler.put on his Jabiru 2200. Everything else was bone stock and simply followed manufacturers maintenance specifications. I'll try to ask more about
tomorrow when I see him.
Now onto other tips - engine leak down test: what is the best way to do this?
Fly the plane for about 30mins or so, land and then take one plug out,turn the prop by hand and start the process of dumping air inside the cylinder, using the double dial air regulator?
I think the manual calls for anything less than 60psi, from the initial 80psi to begin with is a fail...?
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Pipistrel Moderator <pipistrel.aircraft@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:23:08 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
When you have an aircraft flying on floats you want to get the best possible power to weight ratio so you can get off the water quickly. The Rotax does a good job with this because of its geared high revving engine, the Jabiru is very slow to excel in
rate by comparison and the climb rate is significantly slower. All of this goes against the airframe powered by a Jabiru being totally suitable for floats. Sure, it is probably going to work but you are placing the aircraft and occupants at a higher risk if
it takes a thousand metres to get off the water whereas normally it would take 300 m as an example/comparison
Justin Gregoris wrote on 17/10/2021 8:08 pm:
Moderator,
Have you flow a hanuman with Jabiru 2200 on floats?
Wondering why this would be a disaster?
I've spoke to a.couple people with this set up and they had nothing bad to say about it.?
Any Info is appreciated.
Hello Richard, I agree with your statement in the final sentence. The Jabiru is not the correct choice of engine for the Hanuman airframe. The Rotax 912 in 80 hp configuration runs rings around the same aircraft with a Jabiru.
Completely forgetting the debate about reliability, the Rotax gets off in almost half the distance, it climbs 300 to 400 feet faster every minute and it uses less fuel at a higher cruise speed.....? Using a Jabiru on a float version of the Hanuman would be
a disaster in my opinion.
Richard Stubbs wrote on 17/10/2021 4:15 pm:
Hi All
?
These Jabiru motors are a bit of an enigma. Some seem to last well, others just don’t! There’s always been this debate with them as to what fuel
to use, all 100 octane Avgas, 95 octane / Avgas mix……? Quite honestly who knows at this point? When you have an engine that sometimes may go the distance while? others fail early everyone becomes an expert on either how best to operate them properly to last
or ‘now we know’ what the problems are!
?
In my opinion whether you like them or not the Jabiru 85hp 2200 is a road runner without a reduction drive as per the Rotax 582 or 912 series
engines. At all up weight when you are hot and high ‘watch out’! ?
?
Given that the Hanuman is supposed to be a STOL type microlight/LSA the question is then ‘Is this the right engine to begin with’? Certainly not
on this airframe I feel.
?
BR
Richard
?
??
?
?
My Jabiru 2200 had over 600 hours on it when I sold my XAir and the engine was running flawlessly. ? ? I maintained and operated it as per Jabiru maintenance requirements. ? ?Cowling had good cooling
design and never had any issue with CHT…….
?
It's also important to note the aircraft that are in fact being run with the Jabiru 2200.
That influences the performance, if the overall engineering has/had flaws. I.e., the cowling is different on each aircraft
- higher vs lower temperatures, etc.
Also, lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s that end up either mixing or using 91 or
93 MoGas.
I would like to agree with this because it would be very comforting but how do you explain all of the failures in Jabiru aircraft built by the factory. They know what they're doing after building
many for 30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is just a fact that we have seen by the few operators at our airfield, all with Jabiru engines in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and was heading south with a brand-new engine with all of the latest modifications and it failed and had to land at our airfield, this was the latest generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours running
time the heads were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not
properly achieved, they fail with monotonous regularity.
?
Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA 5033
Ph. +618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are lots of additional combonents to look after and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax
then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til:
XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
>
kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16,
jgregoris789@...
>>> <mailto:jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...? <mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
?
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
?
?
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
?
mailto:mcoates@...
?
skype name:?? xcomavionics
?
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
?
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
?
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
yes sir. it has a transponder indeed.
how about edenvale?
or brampton?
regardless, we will figure it out.
wish me good luck. my mission is to drive from my place 2.1hrs via car to where my partner and i will check the plane, do a run up and off we go. friday looks like the only good day in the next 10 days to make the voyage.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
Sent: October 20, 2021 6:29 PM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
Sure. ? ? We could connect at Guelph Airpark sometime- unless you have a transponder…?
Geoff Gartshore
Zenith CH200 GCUD
Waterloo, Ontario?
On Oct 20, 2021, at 5:45 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
Maybe one day next warm season I can come see you in person with the Hanuman!?
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 5:11:57 PM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
I flew out of Guelph - paved runways and snow clearing. ? ?I have heard of XAirs on skis ((out in Winnipeg) so it’s not impossible. ??
Geoff Gartshore
Zenith CH200 GCUD
Waterloo, Ontario?
On Oct 20, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
Did you use winter skiis or always have tires even in the winter?
I fly off grass so if there is snow, I don't I'll be able to take off and touch down on the grass.
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 9:56:55 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
I flew my XAir year round so no experience with preservatives etc. ? ?I turned my prop over several times as part of each pre start checklist. ?
AMEs and engine manufacturers recommend minimum of one hour flying per week at normal operating temps for best engine health. ?
Running engine on ground for 10 min every so often does more harm than good - promoting condensation, moisture buildup and corrosion. ??
Cheers. ?
Geoff Gartshore
Zenith CH200 GCUD
Waterloo, Ontario?
On Oct 19, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
I ended up buying the 2009 X air Hanuman with the 2nd generation Jabiru 2200 with 139hrs.
I did a leakdown test and all cylinders read the same. I put 80psi in and the result was 76psi. I guess that's pretty good.
I got a little air passing through to the crankcase vent but I think it was because the rings were starting to contract since we didn't do the test when it was really hot.
My intent was to perform the test immediately after a 45minute flight but then we saw some other rans s-7s and starting talking to the owners, so the temperature dropped to about warm, if that and not hot.
I feel more confident with this jabiru motor now.
Can you confirm that:
I should turn the propeller by hand in its regular direction to move oil to higher locations within the combustion chamber prior to starting it when it's cold outside or any time the engine has not been started for more than one week?
During cold wintertime when I am not flying for about 3-4 months, I should turn the propeller every 10 days ?
Some say don't touch anything during storage because by turning prop by hand will end up scuffing cylinder walls, or should I do it?
Also, if I don't fly for 3-4 months during cold wintertime, I spray LPS lubricant into all cylinders then put plugs back?
Then change oil in the spring once I start flying again?
With the Sensenich ground adjustable prop on a heavier than normal pitch setting, the plane took off in no time with two full grown gentlemen.
Lastly, any tips on how to cut and align and mount the propeller spinner, to finish off the aesthetics at the front?
Justin
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:28:04 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
The gentleman who had his Hanuman with 3/4 tank fuel and two adults also had a ground adjustable prop and oil cooler.put on his Jabiru 2200. Everything else was bone stock and simply followed manufacturers maintenance specifications. I'll try to ask more about
tomorrow when I see him.
Now onto other tips - engine leak down test: what is the best way to do this?
Fly the plane for about 30mins or so, land and then take one plug out,turn the prop by hand and start the process of dumping air inside the cylinder, using the double dial air regulator?
I think the manual calls for anything less than 60psi, from the initial 80psi to begin with is a fail...?
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Pipistrel Moderator <pipistrel.aircraft@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:23:08 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
When you have an aircraft flying on floats you want to get the best possible power to weight ratio so you can get off the water quickly. The Rotax does a good job with this because of its geared high revving engine, the Jabiru is very slow to excel in
rate by comparison and the climb rate is significantly slower. All of this goes against the airframe powered by a Jabiru being totally suitable for floats. Sure, it is probably going to work but you are placing the aircraft and occupants at a higher risk if
it takes a thousand metres to get off the water whereas normally it would take 300 m as an example/comparison
Justin Gregoris wrote on 17/10/2021 8:08 pm:
Moderator,
Have you flow a hanuman with Jabiru 2200 on floats?
Wondering why this would be a disaster?
I've spoke to a.couple people with this set up and they had nothing bad to say about it.?
Any Info is appreciated.
Hello Richard, I agree with your statement in the final sentence. The Jabiru is not the correct choice of engine for the Hanuman airframe. The Rotax 912 in 80 hp configuration runs rings around the same aircraft with a Jabiru.
Completely forgetting the debate about reliability, the Rotax gets off in almost half the distance, it climbs 300 to 400 feet faster every minute and it uses less fuel at a higher cruise speed.....? Using a Jabiru on a float version of the Hanuman would be
a disaster in my opinion.
Richard Stubbs wrote on 17/10/2021 4:15 pm:
Hi All
?
These Jabiru motors are a bit of an enigma. Some seem to last well, others just don’t! There’s always been this debate with them as to what fuel
to use, all 100 octane Avgas, 95 octane / Avgas mix……? Quite honestly who knows at this point? When you have an engine that sometimes may go the distance while? others fail early everyone becomes an expert on either how best to operate them properly to last
or ‘now we know’ what the problems are!
?
In my opinion whether you like them or not the Jabiru 85hp 2200 is a road runner without a reduction drive as per the Rotax 582 or 912 series
engines. At all up weight when you are hot and high ‘watch out’! ?
?
Given that the Hanuman is supposed to be a STOL type microlight/LSA the question is then ‘Is this the right engine to begin with’? Certainly not
on this airframe I feel.
?
BR
Richard
?
??
?
?
My Jabiru 2200 had over 600 hours on it when I sold my XAir and the engine was running flawlessly. ? ? I maintained and operated it as per Jabiru maintenance requirements. ? ?Cowling had good cooling
design and never had any issue with CHT…….
?
It's also important to note the aircraft that are in fact being run with the Jabiru 2200.
That influences the performance, if the overall engineering has/had flaws. I.e., the cowling is different on each aircraft
- higher vs lower temperatures, etc.
Also, lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s that end up either mixing or using 91 or
93 MoGas.
I would like to agree with this because it would be very comforting but how do you explain all of the failures in Jabiru aircraft built by the factory. They know what they're doing after building
many for 30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is just a fact that we have seen by the few operators at our airfield, all with Jabiru engines in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and was heading south with a brand-new engine with all of the latest modifications and it failed and had to land at our airfield, this was the latest generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours running
time the heads were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not
properly achieved, they fail with monotonous regularity.
?
Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA 5033
Ph. +618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are lots of additional combonents to look after and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax
then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til:
XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
>
kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16,
jgregoris789@...
>>> <mailto:jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...? <mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
?
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
?
?
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
?
mailto:mcoates@...
?
skype name:?? xcomavionics
?
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
?
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
?
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
Sure. ? ? We could connect at Guelph Airpark sometime- unless you have a transponder…? Geoff Gartshore Zenith CH200 GCUD Waterloo, Ontario?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 20, 2021, at 5:45 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
Maybe one day next warm season I can come see you in person with the Hanuman!?
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 5:11:57 PM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
I flew out of Guelph - paved runways and snow clearing. ? ?I have heard of XAirs on skis ((out in Winnipeg) so it’s not impossible. ??
Geoff Gartshore
Zenith CH200 GCUD
Waterloo, Ontario?
On Oct 20, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
Did you use winter skiis or always have tires even in the winter?
I fly off grass so if there is snow, I don't I'll be able to take off and touch down on the grass.
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 9:56:55 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
I flew my XAir year round so no experience with preservatives etc. ? ?I turned my prop over several times as part of each pre start checklist. ?
AMEs and engine manufacturers recommend minimum of one hour flying per week at normal operating temps for best engine health. ?
Running engine on ground for 10 min every so often does more harm than good - promoting condensation, moisture buildup and corrosion. ??
Cheers. ?
Geoff Gartshore
Zenith CH200 GCUD
Waterloo, Ontario?
On Oct 19, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
I ended up buying the 2009 X air Hanuman with the 2nd generation Jabiru 2200 with 139hrs.
I did a leakdown test and all cylinders read the same. I put 80psi in and the result was 76psi. I guess that's pretty good.
I got a little air passing through to the crankcase vent but I think it was because the rings were starting to contract since we didn't do the test when it was really hot.
My intent was to perform the test immediately after a 45minute flight but then we saw some other rans s-7s and starting talking to the owners, so the temperature dropped to about warm, if that and not hot.
I feel more confident with this jabiru motor now.
Can you confirm that:
I should turn the propeller by hand in its regular direction to move oil to higher locations within the combustion chamber prior to starting it when it's cold outside or any time the engine has not been started for more than one week?
During cold wintertime when I am not flying for about 3-4 months, I should turn the propeller every 10 days ?
Some say don't touch anything during storage because by turning prop by hand will end up scuffing cylinder walls, or should I do it?
Also, if I don't fly for 3-4 months during cold wintertime, I spray LPS lubricant into all cylinders then put plugs back?
Then change oil in the spring once I start flying again?
With the Sensenich ground adjustable prop on a heavier than normal pitch setting, the plane took off in no time with two full grown gentlemen.
Lastly, any tips on how to cut and align and mount the propeller spinner, to finish off the aesthetics at the front?
Justin
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:28:04 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
The gentleman who had his Hanuman with 3/4 tank fuel and two adults also had a ground adjustable prop and oil cooler.put on his Jabiru 2200. Everything else was bone stock and simply followed manufacturers maintenance specifications. I'll try to ask more about
tomorrow when I see him.
Now onto other tips - engine leak down test: what is the best way to do this?
Fly the plane for about 30mins or so, land and then take one plug out,turn the prop by hand and start the process of dumping air inside the cylinder, using the double dial air regulator?
I think the manual calls for anything less than 60psi, from the initial 80psi to begin with is a fail...?
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Pipistrel Moderator <pipistrel.aircraft@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:23:08 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
When you have an aircraft flying on floats you want to get the best possible power to weight ratio so you can get off the water quickly. The Rotax does a good job with this because of its geared high revving engine, the Jabiru is very slow to excel in
rate by comparison and the climb rate is significantly slower. All of this goes against the airframe powered by a Jabiru being totally suitable for floats. Sure, it is probably going to work but you are placing the aircraft and occupants at a higher risk if
it takes a thousand metres to get off the water whereas normally it would take 300 m as an example/comparison
Justin Gregoris wrote on 17/10/2021 8:08 pm:
Moderator,
Have you flow a hanuman with Jabiru 2200 on floats?
Wondering why this would be a disaster?
I've spoke to a.couple people with this set up and they had nothing bad to say about it.?
Any Info is appreciated.
Hello Richard, I agree with your statement in the final sentence. The Jabiru is not the correct choice of engine for the Hanuman airframe. The Rotax 912 in 80 hp configuration runs rings around the same aircraft with a Jabiru.
Completely forgetting the debate about reliability, the Rotax gets off in almost half the distance, it climbs 300 to 400 feet faster every minute and it uses less fuel at a higher cruise speed.....? Using a Jabiru on a float version of the Hanuman would be
a disaster in my opinion.
Richard Stubbs wrote on 17/10/2021 4:15 pm:
Hi All
?
These Jabiru motors are a bit of an enigma. Some seem to last well, others just don’t! There’s always been this debate with them as to what fuel
to use, all 100 octane Avgas, 95 octane / Avgas mix……? Quite honestly who knows at this point? When you have an engine that sometimes may go the distance while? others fail early everyone becomes an expert on either how best to operate them properly to last
or ‘now we know’ what the problems are!
?
In my opinion whether you like them or not the Jabiru 85hp 2200 is a road runner without a reduction drive as per the Rotax 582 or 912 series engines.
At all up weight when you are hot and high ‘watch out’! ?
?
Given that the Hanuman is supposed to be a STOL type microlight/LSA the question is then ‘Is this the right engine to begin with’? Certainly not
on this airframe I feel.
?
BR
Richard
?
??
?
?
My Jabiru 2200 had over 600 hours on it when I sold my XAir and the engine was running flawlessly. ? ? I maintained and operated it as per Jabiru maintenance requirements. ? ?Cowling had good cooling
design and never had any issue with CHT…….
?
It's also important to note the aircraft that are in fact being run with the Jabiru 2200.
That influences the performance, if the overall engineering has/had flaws. I.e., the cowling is different on each aircraft
- higher vs lower temperatures, etc.
Also, lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s that end up either mixing or using 91 or
93 MoGas.
I would like to agree with this because it would be very comforting but how do you explain all of the failures in Jabiru aircraft built by the factory. They know what they're doing after building many
for 30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is just a fact that we have seen by the few operators at our airfield, all with Jabiru engines in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and was heading south with a brand-new engine with all of the latest modifications and it failed and had to land at our airfield, this was the latest generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours running
time the heads were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not properly
achieved, they fail with monotonous regularity.
?
Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA 5033
Ph. +618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are lots of additional combonents to look after and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax
then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til:
XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
>
kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16,
jgregoris789@...
>>> <mailto:jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...? <mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
?
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
?
?
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
?
mailto:mcoates@...
?
skype name:?? xcomavionics
?
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
?
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
?
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
Maybe one day next warm season I can come see you in person with the Hanuman!?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 5:11:57 PM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
I flew out of Guelph - paved runways and snow clearing. ? ?I have heard of XAirs on skis ((out in Winnipeg) so it’s not impossible. ??
Geoff Gartshore
Zenith CH200 GCUD
Waterloo, Ontario?
On Oct 20, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
Did you use winter skiis or always have tires even in the winter?
I fly off grass so if there is snow, I don't I'll be able to take off and touch down on the grass.
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 9:56:55 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
I flew my XAir year round so no experience with preservatives etc. ? ?I turned my prop over several times as part of each pre start checklist. ?
AMEs and engine manufacturers recommend minimum of one hour flying per week at normal operating temps for best engine health. ?
Running engine on ground for 10 min every so often does more harm than good - promoting condensation, moisture buildup and corrosion. ??
Cheers. ?
Geoff Gartshore
Zenith CH200 GCUD
Waterloo, Ontario?
On Oct 19, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
I ended up buying the 2009 X air Hanuman with the 2nd generation Jabiru 2200 with 139hrs.
I did a leakdown test and all cylinders read the same. I put 80psi in and the result was 76psi. I guess that's pretty good.
I got a little air passing through to the crankcase vent but I think it was because the rings were starting to contract since we didn't do the test when it was really hot.
My intent was to perform the test immediately after a 45minute flight but then we saw some other rans s-7s and starting talking to the owners, so the temperature dropped to about warm, if that and not hot.
I feel more confident with this jabiru motor now.
Can you confirm that:
I should turn the propeller by hand in its regular direction to move oil to higher locations within the combustion chamber prior to starting it when it's cold outside or any time the engine has not been started for more than one week?
During cold wintertime when I am not flying for about 3-4 months, I should turn the propeller every 10 days ?
Some say don't touch anything during storage because by turning prop by hand will end up scuffing cylinder walls, or should I do it?
Also, if I don't fly for 3-4 months during cold wintertime, I spray LPS lubricant into all cylinders then put plugs back?
Then change oil in the spring once I start flying again?
With the Sensenich ground adjustable prop on a heavier than normal pitch setting, the plane took off in no time with two full grown gentlemen.
Lastly, any tips on how to cut and align and mount the propeller spinner, to finish off the aesthetics at the front?
Justin
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:28:04 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
The gentleman who had his Hanuman with 3/4 tank fuel and two adults also had a ground adjustable prop and oil cooler.put on his Jabiru 2200. Everything else was bone stock and simply followed manufacturers maintenance specifications. I'll try to ask more about
tomorrow when I see him.
Now onto other tips - engine leak down test: what is the best way to do this?
Fly the plane for about 30mins or so, land and then take one plug out,turn the prop by hand and start the process of dumping air inside the cylinder, using the double dial air regulator?
I think the manual calls for anything less than 60psi, from the initial 80psi to begin with is a fail...?
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Pipistrel Moderator <pipistrel.aircraft@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:23:08 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
When you have an aircraft flying on floats you want to get the best possible power to weight ratio so you can get off the water quickly. The Rotax does a good job with this because of its geared high revving engine, the Jabiru is very slow to excel in
rate by comparison and the climb rate is significantly slower. All of this goes against the airframe powered by a Jabiru being totally suitable for floats. Sure, it is probably going to work but you are placing the aircraft and occupants at a higher risk if
it takes a thousand metres to get off the water whereas normally it would take 300 m as an example/comparison
Justin Gregoris wrote on 17/10/2021 8:08 pm:
Moderator,
Have you flow a hanuman with Jabiru 2200 on floats?
Wondering why this would be a disaster?
I've spoke to a.couple people with this set up and they had nothing bad to say about it.?
Any Info is appreciated.
Hello Richard, I agree with your statement in the final sentence. The Jabiru is not the correct choice of engine for the Hanuman airframe. The Rotax 912 in 80 hp configuration runs rings around the same aircraft with a Jabiru.
Completely forgetting the debate about reliability, the Rotax gets off in almost half the distance, it climbs 300 to 400 feet faster every minute and it uses less fuel at a higher cruise speed.....? Using a Jabiru on a float version of the Hanuman would be
a disaster in my opinion.
Richard Stubbs wrote on 17/10/2021 4:15 pm:
Hi All
?
These Jabiru motors are a bit of an enigma. Some seem to last well, others just don’t! There’s always been this debate with them as to what fuel
to use, all 100 octane Avgas, 95 octane / Avgas mix……? Quite honestly who knows at this point? When you have an engine that sometimes may go the distance while? others fail early everyone becomes an expert on either how best to operate them properly to last
or ‘now we know’ what the problems are!
?
In my opinion whether you like them or not the Jabiru 85hp 2200 is a road runner without a reduction drive as per the Rotax 582 or 912 series engines.
At all up weight when you are hot and high ‘watch out’! ?
?
Given that the Hanuman is supposed to be a STOL type microlight/LSA the question is then ‘Is this the right engine to begin with’? Certainly not
on this airframe I feel.
?
BR
Richard
?
??
?
?
My Jabiru 2200 had over 600 hours on it when I sold my XAir and the engine was running flawlessly. ? ? I maintained and operated it as per Jabiru maintenance requirements. ? ?Cowling had good cooling
design and never had any issue with CHT…….
?
It's also important to note the aircraft that are in fact being run with the Jabiru 2200.
That influences the performance, if the overall engineering has/had flaws. I.e., the cowling is different on each aircraft
- higher vs lower temperatures, etc.
Also, lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s that end up either mixing or using 91 or
93 MoGas.
I would like to agree with this because it would be very comforting but how do you explain all of the failures in Jabiru aircraft built by the factory. They know what they're doing after building many
for 30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is just a fact that we have seen by the few operators at our airfield, all with Jabiru engines in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and was heading south with a brand-new engine with all of the latest modifications and it failed and had to land at our airfield, this was the latest generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours running
time the heads were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not properly
achieved, they fail with monotonous regularity.
?
Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA 5033
Ph. +618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are lots of additional combonents to look after and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax
then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til:
XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
>
kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16,
jgregoris789@...
>>> <mailto:jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...? <mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
?
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
?
?
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
?
mailto:mcoates@...
?
skype name:?? xcomavionics
?
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
?
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
?
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
I flew out of Guelph - paved runways and snow clearing. ? ?I have heard of XAirs on skis ((out in Winnipeg) so it’s not impossible. ?? Geoff Gartshore Zenith CH200 GCUD Waterloo, Ontario?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 20, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
Did you use winter skiis or always have tires even in the winter?
I fly off grass so if there is snow, I don't I'll be able to take off and touch down on the grass.
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 9:56:55 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
I flew my XAir year round so no experience with preservatives etc. ? ?I turned my prop over several times as part of each pre start checklist. ?
AMEs and engine manufacturers recommend minimum of one hour flying per week at normal operating temps for best engine health. ?
Running engine on ground for 10 min every so often does more harm than good - promoting condensation, moisture buildup and corrosion. ??
Cheers. ?
Geoff Gartshore
Zenith CH200 GCUD
Waterloo, Ontario?
On Oct 19, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
I ended up buying the 2009 X air Hanuman with the 2nd generation Jabiru 2200 with 139hrs.
I did a leakdown test and all cylinders read the same. I put 80psi in and the result was 76psi. I guess that's pretty good.
I got a little air passing through to the crankcase vent but I think it was because the rings were starting to contract since we didn't do the test when it was really hot.
My intent was to perform the test immediately after a 45minute flight but then we saw some other rans s-7s and starting talking to the owners, so the temperature dropped to about warm, if that and not hot.
I feel more confident with this jabiru motor now.
Can you confirm that:
I should turn the propeller by hand in its regular direction to move oil to higher locations within the combustion chamber prior to starting it when it's cold outside or any time the engine has not been started for more than one week?
During cold wintertime when I am not flying for about 3-4 months, I should turn the propeller every 10 days ?
Some say don't touch anything during storage because by turning prop by hand will end up scuffing cylinder walls, or should I do it?
Also, if I don't fly for 3-4 months during cold wintertime, I spray LPS lubricant into all cylinders then put plugs back?
Then change oil in the spring once I start flying again?
With the Sensenich ground adjustable prop on a heavier than normal pitch setting, the plane took off in no time with two full grown gentlemen.
Lastly, any tips on how to cut and align and mount the propeller spinner, to finish off the aesthetics at the front?
Justin
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:28:04 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
The gentleman who had his Hanuman with 3/4 tank fuel and two adults also had a ground adjustable prop and oil cooler.put on his Jabiru 2200. Everything else was bone stock and simply followed manufacturers maintenance specifications. I'll try to ask more about
tomorrow when I see him.
Now onto other tips - engine leak down test: what is the best way to do this?
Fly the plane for about 30mins or so, land and then take one plug out,turn the prop by hand and start the process of dumping air inside the cylinder, using the double dial air regulator?
I think the manual calls for anything less than 60psi, from the initial 80psi to begin with is a fail...?
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Pipistrel Moderator <pipistrel.aircraft@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:23:08 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
When you have an aircraft flying on floats you want to get the best possible power to weight ratio so you can get off the water quickly. The Rotax does a good job with this because of its geared high revving engine, the Jabiru is very slow to excel in
rate by comparison and the climb rate is significantly slower. All of this goes against the airframe powered by a Jabiru being totally suitable for floats. Sure, it is probably going to work but you are placing the aircraft and occupants at a higher risk if
it takes a thousand metres to get off the water whereas normally it would take 300 m as an example/comparison
Justin Gregoris wrote on 17/10/2021 8:08 pm:
Moderator,
Have you flow a hanuman with Jabiru 2200 on floats?
Wondering why this would be a disaster?
I've spoke to a.couple people with this set up and they had nothing bad to say about it.?
Any Info is appreciated.
Hello Richard, I agree with your statement in the final sentence. The Jabiru is not the correct choice of engine for the Hanuman airframe. The Rotax 912 in 80 hp configuration runs rings around the same aircraft with a Jabiru.
Completely forgetting the debate about reliability, the Rotax gets off in almost half the distance, it climbs 300 to 400 feet faster every minute and it uses less fuel at a higher cruise speed.....? Using a Jabiru on a float version of the Hanuman would be
a disaster in my opinion.
Richard Stubbs wrote on 17/10/2021 4:15 pm:
Hi All
?
These Jabiru motors are a bit of an enigma. Some seem to last well, others just don’t! There’s always been this debate with them as to what fuel to
use, all 100 octane Avgas, 95 octane / Avgas mix……? Quite honestly who knows at this point? When you have an engine that sometimes may go the distance while? others fail early everyone becomes an expert on either how best to operate them properly to last or
‘now we know’ what the problems are!
?
In my opinion whether you like them or not the Jabiru 85hp 2200 is a road runner without a reduction drive as per the Rotax 582 or 912 series engines.
At all up weight when you are hot and high ‘watch out’! ?
?
Given that the Hanuman is supposed to be a STOL type microlight/LSA the question is then ‘Is this the right engine to begin with’? Certainly not on
this airframe I feel.
?
BR
Richard
?
??
?
?
My Jabiru 2200 had over 600 hours on it when I sold my XAir and the engine was running flawlessly. ? ? I maintained and operated it as per Jabiru maintenance requirements. ? ?Cowling had good cooling
design and never had any issue with CHT…….
?
It's also important to note the aircraft that are in fact being run with the Jabiru 2200.
That influences the performance, if the overall engineering has/had flaws. I.e., the cowling is different on each aircraft
- higher vs lower temperatures, etc.
Also, lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s that end up either mixing or using 91 or 93
MoGas.
I would like to agree with this because it would be very comforting but how do you explain all of the failures in Jabiru aircraft built by the factory. They know what they're doing after building many
for 30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is just a fact that we have seen by the few operators at our airfield, all with Jabiru engines in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and was heading south with a brand-new engine with all of the latest modifications and it failed and had to land at our airfield, this was the latest generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours running
time the heads were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not properly
achieved, they fail with monotonous regularity.
?
Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA 5033
Ph. +618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are lots of additional combonents to look after and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax
then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til:
XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
>
kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16,
jgregoris789@...
>>> <mailto:jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...? <mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
?
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
?
?
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
?
mailto:mcoates@...
?
skype name:?? xcomavionics
?
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
?
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
?
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
Did you use winter skiis or always have tires even in the winter?
I fly off grass so if there is snow, I don't I'll be able to take off and touch down on the grass.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 9:56:55 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
I flew my XAir year round so no experience with preservatives etc. ? ?I turned my prop over several times as part of each pre start checklist. ?
AMEs and engine manufacturers recommend minimum of one hour flying per week at normal operating temps for best engine health. ?
Running engine on ground for 10 min every so often does more harm than good - promoting condensation, moisture buildup and corrosion. ??
Cheers. ?
Geoff Gartshore
Zenith CH200 GCUD
Waterloo, Ontario?
On Oct 19, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
I ended up buying the 2009 X air Hanuman with the 2nd generation Jabiru 2200 with 139hrs.
I did a leakdown test and all cylinders read the same. I put 80psi in and the result was 76psi. I guess that's pretty good.
I got a little air passing through to the crankcase vent but I think it was because the rings were starting to contract since we didn't do the test when it was really hot.
My intent was to perform the test immediately after a 45minute flight but then we saw some other rans s-7s and starting talking to the owners, so the temperature dropped to about warm, if that and not hot.
I feel more confident with this jabiru motor now.
Can you confirm that:
I should turn the propeller by hand in its regular direction to move oil to higher locations within the combustion chamber prior to starting it when it's cold outside or any time the engine has not been started for more than one week?
During cold wintertime when I am not flying for about 3-4 months, I should turn the propeller every 10 days ?
Some say don't touch anything during storage because by turning prop by hand will end up scuffing cylinder walls, or should I do it?
Also, if I don't fly for 3-4 months during cold wintertime, I spray LPS lubricant into all cylinders then put plugs back?
Then change oil in the spring once I start flying again?
With the Sensenich ground adjustable prop on a heavier than normal pitch setting, the plane took off in no time with two full grown gentlemen.
Lastly, any tips on how to cut and align and mount the propeller spinner, to finish off the aesthetics at the front?
Justin
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:28:04 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
The gentleman who had his Hanuman with 3/4 tank fuel and two adults also had a ground adjustable prop and oil cooler.put on his Jabiru 2200. Everything else was bone stock and simply followed manufacturers maintenance specifications. I'll try to ask more about
tomorrow when I see him.
Now onto other tips - engine leak down test: what is the best way to do this?
Fly the plane for about 30mins or so, land and then take one plug out,turn the prop by hand and start the process of dumping air inside the cylinder, using the double dial air regulator?
I think the manual calls for anything less than 60psi, from the initial 80psi to begin with is a fail...?
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Pipistrel Moderator <pipistrel.aircraft@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:23:08 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
When you have an aircraft flying on floats you want to get the best possible power to weight ratio so you can get off the water quickly. The Rotax does a good job with this because of its geared high revving engine, the Jabiru is very slow to excel in
rate by comparison and the climb rate is significantly slower. All of this goes against the airframe powered by a Jabiru being totally suitable for floats. Sure, it is probably going to work but you are placing the aircraft and occupants at a higher risk if
it takes a thousand metres to get off the water whereas normally it would take 300 m as an example/comparison
Justin Gregoris wrote on 17/10/2021 8:08 pm:
Moderator,
Have you flow a hanuman with Jabiru 2200 on floats?
Wondering why this would be a disaster?
I've spoke to a.couple people with this set up and they had nothing bad to say about it.?
Any Info is appreciated.
Hello Richard, I agree with your statement in the final sentence. The Jabiru is not the correct choice of engine for the Hanuman airframe. The Rotax 912 in 80 hp configuration runs rings around the same aircraft with a Jabiru.
Completely forgetting the debate about reliability, the Rotax gets off in almost half the distance, it climbs 300 to 400 feet faster every minute and it uses less fuel at a higher cruise speed.....? Using a Jabiru on a float version of the Hanuman would be
a disaster in my opinion.
Richard Stubbs wrote on 17/10/2021 4:15 pm:
Hi All
?
These Jabiru motors are a bit of an enigma. Some seem to last well, others just don’t! There’s always been this debate with them as to what fuel to
use, all 100 octane Avgas, 95 octane / Avgas mix……? Quite honestly who knows at this point? When you have an engine that sometimes may go the distance while? others fail early everyone becomes an expert on either how best to operate them properly to last or
‘now we know’ what the problems are!
?
In my opinion whether you like them or not the Jabiru 85hp 2200 is a road runner without a reduction drive as per the Rotax 582 or 912 series engines.
At all up weight when you are hot and high ‘watch out’! ?
?
Given that the Hanuman is supposed to be a STOL type microlight/LSA the question is then ‘Is this the right engine to begin with’? Certainly not on
this airframe I feel.
?
BR
Richard
?
??
?
?
My Jabiru 2200 had over 600 hours on it when I sold my XAir and the engine was running flawlessly. ? ? I maintained and operated it as per Jabiru maintenance requirements. ? ?Cowling had good cooling
design and never had any issue with CHT…….
?
It's also important to note the aircraft that are in fact being run with the Jabiru 2200.
That influences the performance, if the overall engineering has/had flaws. I.e., the cowling is different on each aircraft
- higher vs lower temperatures, etc.
Also, lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s that end up either mixing or using 91 or 93
MoGas.
I would like to agree with this because it would be very comforting but how do you explain all of the failures in Jabiru aircraft built by the factory. They know what they're doing after building many
for 30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is just a fact that we have seen by the few operators at our airfield, all with Jabiru engines in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and was heading south with a brand-new engine with all of the latest modifications and it failed and had to land at our airfield, this was the latest generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours running
time the heads were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not properly
achieved, they fail with monotonous regularity.
?
Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA 5033
Ph. +618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are lots of additional combonents to look after and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax
then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til:
XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
>
kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16,
jgregoris789@...
>>> <mailto:jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...? <mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
?
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
?
?
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
?
mailto:mcoates@...
?
skype name:?? xcomavionics
?
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
?
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
?
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
I flew my XAir year round so no experience with preservatives etc. ? ?I turned my prop over several times as part of each pre start checklist. ?
AMEs and engine manufacturers recommend minimum of one hour flying per week at normal operating temps for best engine health. ?
Running engine on ground for 10 min every so often does more harm than good - promoting condensation, moisture buildup and corrosion. ??
Cheers. ? Geoff Gartshore Zenith CH200 GCUD Waterloo, Ontario?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 19, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
I ended up buying the 2009 X air Hanuman with the 2nd generation Jabiru 2200 with 139hrs.
I did a leakdown test and all cylinders read the same. I put 80psi in and the result was 76psi. I guess that's pretty good.
I got a little air passing through to the crankcase vent but I think it was because the rings were starting to contract since we didn't do the test when it was really hot.
My intent was to perform the test immediately after a 45minute flight but then we saw some other rans s-7s and starting talking to the owners, so the temperature dropped to about warm, if that and not hot.
I feel more confident with this jabiru motor now.
Can you confirm that:
I should turn the propeller by hand in its regular direction to move oil to higher locations within the combustion chamber prior to starting it when it's cold outside or any time the engine has not been started for more than one week?
During cold wintertime when I am not flying for about 3-4 months, I should turn the propeller every 10 days ?
Some say don't touch anything during storage because by turning prop by hand will end up scuffing cylinder walls, or should I do it?
Also, if I don't fly for 3-4 months during cold wintertime, I spray LPS lubricant into all cylinders then put plugs back?
Then change oil in the spring once I start flying again?
With the Sensenich ground adjustable prop on a heavier than normal pitch setting, the plane took off in no time with two full grown gentlemen.
Lastly, any tips on how to cut and align and mount the propeller spinner, to finish off the aesthetics at the front?
Justin
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:28:04 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
The gentleman who had his Hanuman with 3/4 tank fuel and two adults also had a ground adjustable prop and oil cooler.put on his Jabiru 2200. Everything else was bone stock and simply followed manufacturers maintenance specifications. I'll try to ask more about
tomorrow when I see him.
Now onto other tips - engine leak down test: what is the best way to do this?
Fly the plane for about 30mins or so, land and then take one plug out,turn the prop by hand and start the process of dumping air inside the cylinder, using the double dial air regulator?
I think the manual calls for anything less than 60psi, from the initial 80psi to begin with is a fail...?
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Pipistrel Moderator <pipistrel.aircraft@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:23:08 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
When you have an aircraft flying on floats you want to get the best possible power to weight ratio so you can get off the water quickly. The Rotax does a good job with this because of its geared high revving engine, the Jabiru is very slow to excel in
rate by comparison and the climb rate is significantly slower. All of this goes against the airframe powered by a Jabiru being totally suitable for floats. Sure, it is probably going to work but you are placing the aircraft and occupants at a higher risk if
it takes a thousand metres to get off the water whereas normally it would take 300 m as an example/comparison
Justin Gregoris wrote on 17/10/2021 8:08 pm:
Moderator,
Have you flow a hanuman with Jabiru 2200 on floats?
Wondering why this would be a disaster?
I've spoke to a.couple people with this set up and they had nothing bad to say about it.?
Any Info is appreciated.
Hello Richard, I agree with your statement in the final sentence. The Jabiru is not the correct choice of engine for the Hanuman airframe. The Rotax 912 in 80 hp configuration runs rings around the same aircraft with a Jabiru.
Completely forgetting the debate about reliability, the Rotax gets off in almost half the distance, it climbs 300 to 400 feet faster every minute and it uses less fuel at a higher cruise speed.....? Using a Jabiru on a float version of the Hanuman would be
a disaster in my opinion.
Richard Stubbs wrote on 17/10/2021 4:15 pm:
Hi All
?
These Jabiru motors are a bit of an enigma. Some seem to last well, others just don’t! There’s always been this debate with them as to what fuel to
use, all 100 octane Avgas, 95 octane / Avgas mix……? Quite honestly who knows at this point? When you have an engine that sometimes may go the distance while? others fail early everyone becomes an expert on either how best to operate them properly to last or
‘now we know’ what the problems are!
?
In my opinion whether you like them or not the Jabiru 85hp 2200 is a road runner without a reduction drive as per the Rotax 582 or 912 series engines.
At all up weight when you are hot and high ‘watch out’! ?
?
Given that the Hanuman is supposed to be a STOL type microlight/LSA the question is then ‘Is this the right engine to begin with’? Certainly not on
this airframe I feel.
?
BR
Richard
?
??
?
?
My Jabiru 2200 had over 600 hours on it when I sold my XAir and the engine was running flawlessly. ? ? I maintained and operated it as per Jabiru maintenance requirements. ? ?Cowling had good cooling design
and never had any issue with CHT…….
?
It's also important to note the aircraft that are in fact being run with the Jabiru 2200.
That influences the performance, if the overall engineering has/had flaws. I.e., the cowling is different on each aircraft
- higher vs lower temperatures, etc.
Also, lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s that end up either mixing or using 91 or 93 MoGas.
I would like to agree with this because it would be very comforting but how do you explain all of the failures in Jabiru aircraft built by the factory. They know what they're doing after building many
for 30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is just a fact that we have seen by the few operators at our airfield, all with Jabiru engines in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and was heading south with a brand-new engine with all of the latest modifications and it failed and had to land at our airfield, this was the latest generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours running
time the heads were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not properly
achieved, they fail with monotonous regularity.
?
Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA 5033
Ph. +618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are lots of additional combonents to look after and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax
then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til:
XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
>
kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16,
jgregoris789@...
>>> <mailto:jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...? <mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
?
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
?
?
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
?
mailto:mcoates@...
?
skype name:?? xcomavionics
?
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
?
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
?
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
I ended up buying the 2009 X air Hanuman with the 2nd generation Jabiru 2200 with 139hrs.
I did a leakdown test and all cylinders read the same. I put 80psi in and the result was 76psi. I guess that's pretty good.
I got a little air passing through to the crankcase vent but I think it was because the rings were starting to contract since we didn't do the test when it was really hot.
My intent was to perform the test immediately after a 45minute flight but then we saw some other rans s-7s and starting talking to the owners, so the temperature dropped to about warm, if that and not hot.
I feel more confident with this jabiru motor now.
Can you confirm that:
I should turn the propeller by hand in its regular direction to move oil to higher locations within the combustion chamber prior to starting it when it's cold outside or any time the engine has not been started for more than one week?
During cold wintertime when I am not flying for about 3-4 months, I should turn the propeller every 10 days ?
Some say don't touch anything during storage because by turning prop by hand will end up scuffing cylinder walls, or should I do it?
Also, if I don't fly for 3-4 months during cold wintertime, I spray LPS lubricant into all cylinders then put plugs back?
Then change oil in the spring once I start flying again?
With the Sensenich ground adjustable prop on a heavier than normal pitch setting, the plane took off in no time with two full grown gentlemen.
Lastly, any tips on how to cut and align and mount the propeller spinner, to finish off the aesthetics at the front?
Justin
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:28:04 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
The gentleman who had his Hanuman with 3/4 tank fuel and two adults also had a ground adjustable prop and oil cooler.put on his Jabiru 2200. Everything else was bone stock and simply followed manufacturers maintenance specifications. I'll try to ask more about
tomorrow when I see him.
Now onto other tips - engine leak down test: what is the best way to do this?
Fly the plane for about 30mins or so, land and then take one plug out,turn the prop by hand and start the process of dumping air inside the cylinder, using the double dial air regulator?
I think the manual calls for anything less than 60psi, from the initial 80psi to begin with is a fail...?
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Pipistrel Moderator <pipistrel.aircraft@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:23:08 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
When you have an aircraft flying on floats you want to get the best possible power to weight ratio so you can get off the water quickly. The Rotax does a good job with this because of its geared high revving engine, the Jabiru is very slow to excel in
rate by comparison and the climb rate is significantly slower. All of this goes against the airframe powered by a Jabiru being totally suitable for floats. Sure, it is probably going to work but you are placing the aircraft and occupants at a higher risk if
it takes a thousand metres to get off the water whereas normally it would take 300 m as an example/comparison
Justin Gregoris wrote on 17/10/2021 8:08 pm:
Moderator,
Have you flow a hanuman with Jabiru 2200 on floats?
Wondering why this would be a disaster?
I've spoke to a.couple people with this set up and they had nothing bad to say about it.?
Any Info is appreciated.
Hello Richard, I agree with your statement in the final sentence. The Jabiru is not the correct choice of engine for the Hanuman airframe. The Rotax 912 in 80 hp configuration runs rings around the same aircraft with a Jabiru.
Completely forgetting the debate about reliability, the Rotax gets off in almost half the distance, it climbs 300 to 400 feet faster every minute and it uses less fuel at a higher cruise speed.....? Using a Jabiru on a float version of the Hanuman would be
a disaster in my opinion.
Richard Stubbs wrote on 17/10/2021 4:15 pm:
Hi All
?
These Jabiru motors are a bit of an enigma. Some seem to last well, others just don’t! There’s always been this debate with them as to what fuel to
use, all 100 octane Avgas, 95 octane / Avgas mix……? Quite honestly who knows at this point? When you have an engine that sometimes may go the distance while? others fail early everyone becomes an expert on either how best to operate them properly to last or
‘now we know’ what the problems are!
?
In my opinion whether you like them or not the Jabiru 85hp 2200 is a road runner without a reduction drive as per the Rotax 582 or 912 series engines.
At all up weight when you are hot and high ‘watch out’! ?
?
Given that the Hanuman is supposed to be a STOL type microlight/LSA the question is then ‘Is this the right engine to begin with’? Certainly not on
this airframe I feel.
?
BR
Richard
?
??
?
?
My Jabiru 2200 had over 600 hours on it when I sold my XAir and the engine was running flawlessly. ? ? I maintained and operated it as per Jabiru maintenance requirements. ? ?Cowling had good cooling design
and never had any issue with CHT…….
?
It's also important to note the aircraft that are in fact being run with the Jabiru 2200.
That influences the performance, if the overall engineering has/had flaws. I.e., the cowling is different on each aircraft
- higher vs lower temperatures, etc.
Also, lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s that end up either mixing or using 91 or 93 MoGas.
I would like to agree with this because it would be very comforting but how do you explain all of the failures in Jabiru aircraft built by the factory. They know what they're doing after building many
for 30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is just a fact that we have seen by the few operators at our airfield, all with Jabiru engines in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and was heading south with a brand-new engine with all of the latest modifications and it failed and had to land at our airfield, this was the latest generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours running
time the heads were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not properly
achieved, they fail with monotonous regularity.
?
Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA 5033
Ph. +618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are lots of additional combonents to look after and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax
then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til:
XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
>
kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16,
jgregoris789@...
>>> <mailto:jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...? <mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
?
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
?
?
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
?
mailto:mcoates@...
?
skype name:?? xcomavionics
?
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
?
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
?
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
The gentleman who had his Hanuman with 3/4 tank fuel and two adults also had a ground adjustable prop and oil cooler.put on his Jabiru 2200. Everything else was bone stock and simply followed manufacturers maintenance specifications. I'll try to ask more about
tomorrow when I see him.
Now onto other tips - engine leak down test: what is the best way to do this?
Fly the plane for about 30mins or so, land and then take one plug out,turn the prop by hand and start the process of dumping air inside the cylinder, using the double dial air regulator?
I think the manual calls for anything less than 60psi, from the initial 80psi to begin with is a fail...?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Pipistrel Moderator <pipistrel.aircraft@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 6:23:08 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
When you have an aircraft flying on floats you want to get the best possible power to weight ratio so you can get off the water quickly. The Rotax does a good job with this because of its geared high revving engine, the Jabiru is very slow to excel in
rate by comparison and the climb rate is significantly slower. All of this goes against the airframe powered by a Jabiru being totally suitable for floats. Sure, it is probably going to work but you are placing the aircraft and occupants at a higher risk if
it takes a thousand metres to get off the water whereas normally it would take 300 m as an example/comparison
Justin Gregoris wrote on 17/10/2021 8:08 pm:
Moderator,
Have you flow a hanuman with Jabiru 2200 on floats?
Wondering why this would be a disaster?
I've spoke to a.couple people with this set up and they had nothing bad to say about it.?
Any Info is appreciated.
Hello Richard, I agree with your statement in the final sentence. The Jabiru is not the correct choice of engine for the Hanuman airframe. The Rotax 912 in 80 hp configuration runs rings around the same aircraft with a Jabiru.
Completely forgetting the debate about reliability, the Rotax gets off in almost half the distance, it climbs 300 to 400 feet faster every minute and it uses less fuel at a higher cruise speed.....? Using a Jabiru on a float version of the Hanuman would be
a disaster in my opinion.
Richard Stubbs wrote on 17/10/2021 4:15 pm:
Hi All
?
These Jabiru motors are a bit of an enigma. Some seem to last well, others just don’t! There’s always been this debate with them as to what fuel to use,
all 100 octane Avgas, 95 octane / Avgas mix……? Quite honestly who knows at this point? When you have an engine that sometimes may go the distance while? others fail early everyone becomes an expert on either how best to operate them properly to last or ‘now
we know’ what the problems are!
?
In my opinion whether you like them or not the Jabiru 85hp 2200 is a road runner without a reduction drive as per the Rotax 582 or 912 series engines.
At all up weight when you are hot and high ‘watch out’! ?
?
Given that the Hanuman is supposed to be a STOL type microlight/LSA the question is then ‘Is this the right engine to begin with’? Certainly not on this
airframe I feel.
?
BR
Richard
?
??
?
?
My Jabiru 2200 had over 600 hours on it when I sold my XAir and the engine was running flawlessly. ? ? I maintained and operated it as per Jabiru maintenance requirements. ? ?Cowling had good cooling design
and never had any issue with CHT…….
?
It's also important to note the aircraft that are in fact being run with the Jabiru 2200.
That influences the performance, if the overall engineering has/had flaws. I.e., the cowling is different on each aircraft -
higher vs lower temperatures, etc.
Also, lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s that end up either mixing or using 91 or 93 MoGas.
I would like to agree with this because it would be very comforting but how do you explain all of the failures in Jabiru aircraft built by the factory. They know what they're doing after building many for
30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is just a fact that we have seen by the few operators at our airfield, all with Jabiru engines in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and was heading south with a brand-new engine with all of the latest modifications and it failed and had to land at our airfield, this was the latest generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours running
time the heads were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not properly
achieved, they fail with monotonous regularity.
?
Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA 5033
Ph. +618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are lots of additional combonents to look after and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax
then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til:
XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
>
kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:*
XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16,
jgregoris789@...
>>> <mailto:jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...? <mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
?
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
?
?
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
?
mailto:mcoates@...
?
skype name:?? xcomavionics
?
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
?
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
?
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
When you have an aircraft flying on floats you want to get the best
possible power to weight ratio so you can get off the water quickly.
The Rotax does a good job with this because of its geared high
revving engine, the Jabiru is very slow to excel in rate by
comparison and the climb rate is significantly slower. All of this
goes against the airframe powered by a Jabiru being totally suitable
for floats. Sure, it is probably going to work but you are placing
the aircraft and occupants at a higher risk if it takes a thousand
metres to get off the water whereas normally it would take 300 m as
an example/comparison
Justin Gregoris wrote on 17/10/2021
8:08 pm:
Moderator,
Have you flow a hanuman with Jabiru 2200 on floats?
Wondering why this would be a disaster?
I've spoke to a.couple people with this set up and they had
nothing bad to say about it.?
Any Info is appreciated.
Hello Richard, I agree with your statement in the final
sentence. The Jabiru is not the correct choice of engine for the
Hanuman airframe. The Rotax 912 in 80 hp configuration runs
rings around the same aircraft with a Jabiru.
Completely forgetting the debate about reliability, the Rotax
gets off in almost half the distance, it climbs 300 to 400 feet
faster every minute and it uses less fuel at a higher cruise
speed.....? Using a Jabiru on a float version of the Hanuman
would be a disaster in my opinion.
Richard Stubbs wrote on
17/10/2021 4:15 pm:
Hi All
?
These Jabiru motors are a bit of an
enigma. Some seem to last well, others just don’t!
There’s always been this debate with them as to what
fuel to use, all 100 octane Avgas, 95 octane / Avgas
mix……? Quite honestly who knows at this point? When you
have an engine that sometimes may go the distance while?
others fail early everyone becomes an expert on either
how best to operate them properly to last or ‘now we
know’ what the problems are!
?
In my opinion whether you like them or
not the Jabiru 85hp 2200 is a road runner without a
reduction drive as per the Rotax 582 or 912 series
engines. At all up weight when you are hot and high
‘watch out’! ?
?
Given that the Hanuman is supposed to be
a STOL type microlight/LSA the question is then ‘Is this
the right engine to begin with’? Certainly not on this
airframe I feel.
?
BR
Richard
?
??
?
?
My
Jabiru 2200 had over 600 hours on it when I sold my XAir
and the engine was running flawlessly. ? ? I maintained
and operated it as per Jabiru maintenance requirements. ?
?Cowling had good cooling design and never had any issue
with CHT…….
?
It's also important to note the
aircraft that are in fact being run with the
Jabiru 2200.
That influences the performance, if
the overall engineering has/had flaws. I.e., the
cowling is different on each aircraft - higher vs
lower temperatures, etc.
Also,
lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and
ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s
that end up either mixing or using 91 or 93 MoGas.
I
would like to agree with this because it would be
very comforting but how do you explain all of the
failures in Jabiru aircraft built by the factory.
They know what they're doing after building many for
30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it
is just a fact that we have seen by the few
operators at our airfield, all with Jabiru engines
in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg
and was heading south with a brand-new engine with
all of the latest modifications and it failed and
had to land at our airfield, this was the latest
generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours
running time the heads were shot and there were
Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote
on 16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the
reliability of any Jab engine is more affected
by the quality of its installation than any
other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken
to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for
instance, is not properly achieved, they fail
with monotonous regularity.
?
Chaps, the comments about the
Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie,
and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD
Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA 5033
Ph. +618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive
regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru
2200 and I know that 4 of my friends
which have those engine also are happy
with this engine. Rotax are fine engine
but there are lots of additional
combonents to look after and maintain.
If you plan to replace to rotax then
stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are
more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til: XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000
(GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for
Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44
pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the
Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two
adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off
the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will
it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru
engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land
on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land
of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the
Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the
fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply
don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)?
replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better
results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the
Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go
long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look
at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see
dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours
engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a
new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft
but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same
problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io>
on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021
3:25:45 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel
for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of
"STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal
reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
> kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io>
on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021
9:40 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel
for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on
10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water
into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal
for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an
equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a
test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct
contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again.
Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level
difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the
fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but
there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16,
jgregoris789@...
>>> <mailto:jgregoris789@...>
wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware
of this test - how does it work and what
do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly
concerned with ethanol content, but
rather
>>> detonation differences
between using MoGas shell 91 or 93
versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that
is nowhere near me. I would have to
drive
>>> 40km in a different
direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana
if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to
the grass field and put it in the
Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of
view, it is not surprising how Jabiru
does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas
to be used - not even any additives,
which
>>> is another topic is like to
introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93
MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional
dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple
weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and
big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel
engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a
difference - am I missing something or
is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that
have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how
any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are
about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91
or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam
additive to preserve and offer some
better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE
YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet
Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE
YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...?
<mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume
of e-mail we are now receiving our
replies are
> done using voice recognition
software in an effort to speed up the
reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition
program inserts silly words or doesn't
actually
> do what it is meant to do.?
Occasionally these mistakes get through
our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent,
so please accept my apologies if the odd
mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information
contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the
person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use,
disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose
whatsoever. If this communication has
been
> sent to you in error, please email
the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it
right;
> Professionals practice till they
can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR
2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award
2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR
2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of
e-mail we are now receiving our replies
are
done using voice recognition software in
an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program
inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally
these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so
please accept my apologies if the odd
mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained
in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the
person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use,
disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever.
If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the
sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it
right;
Professionals practice till they can’t
get it wrong."
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
?
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
?
?
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
?
mailto:mcoates@...
?
skype name:?? xcomavionics
?
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
?
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
?
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
|
With regards, Michael
Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft -
Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA
August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft -
Dealer of the year 2017
|
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email: info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft -
Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August
Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft -
Dealer of the year 2017
|
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
Moderator,
Have you flow a hanuman with Jabiru 2200 on floats?
Wondering why this would be a disaster?
I've spoke to a.couple people with this set up and they had nothing bad to say about it.?
Any Info is appreciated.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Pipistrel Moderator <pipistrel.aircraft@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 3:36:31 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
Hello Richard, I agree with your statement in the final sentence. The Jabiru is not the correct choice of engine for the Hanuman airframe. The Rotax 912 in 80 hp configuration runs rings around the same aircraft with a Jabiru.
Completely forgetting the debate about reliability, the Rotax gets off in almost half the distance, it climbs 300 to 400 feet faster every minute and it uses less fuel at a higher cruise speed.....? Using a Jabiru on a float version of the Hanuman would be
a disaster in my opinion.
Richard Stubbs wrote on 17/10/2021 4:15 pm:
Hi All
?
These Jabiru motors are a bit of an enigma. Some seem to last well, others just don’t! There’s always been this debate with them as to what fuel to use,
all 100 octane Avgas, 95 octane / Avgas mix……? Quite honestly who knows at this point? When you have an engine that sometimes may go the distance while? others fail early everyone becomes an expert on either how best to operate them properly to last or ‘now
we know’ what the problems are!
?
In my opinion whether you like them or not the Jabiru 85hp 2200 is a road runner without a reduction drive as per the Rotax 582 or 912 series engines. At
all up weight when you are hot and high ‘watch out’! ?
?
Given that the Hanuman is supposed to be a STOL type microlight/LSA the question is then ‘Is this the right engine to begin with’? Certainly not on this
airframe I feel.
?
BR
Richard
?
??
?
?
My Jabiru 2200 had over 600 hours on it when I sold my XAir and the engine was running flawlessly. ? ? I maintained and operated it as per Jabiru maintenance requirements. ? ?Cowling had good cooling design
and never had any issue with CHT…….
?
It's also important to note the aircraft that are in fact being run with the Jabiru 2200.
That influences the performance, if the overall engineering has/had flaws. I.e., the cowling is different on each aircraft - higher
vs lower temperatures, etc.
Also, lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s that end up either mixing or using 91 or 93 MoGas.
I would like to agree with this because it would be very comforting but how do you explain all of the failures in Jabiru aircraft built by the factory. They know what they're doing after building many for
30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is just a fact that we have seen by the few operators at our airfield, all with Jabiru engines in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and was heading south with a brand-new engine with all of the latest modifications and it failed and had to land at our airfield, this was the latest generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours running
time the heads were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not properly
achieved, they fail with monotonous regularity.
?
Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA 5033
Ph. +618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are lots of additional combonents to look after and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax
then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til: XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
> kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16,
jgregoris789@...
>>> <mailto:jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...? <mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
?
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
?
?
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
?
mailto:mcoates@...
?
skype name:?? xcomavionics
?
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
?
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
?
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email:
info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft - Dealer of the year 2017
|
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
Hello Richard, I agree with your statement in the final sentence.
The Jabiru is not the correct choice of engine for the Hanuman
airframe. The Rotax 912 in 80 hp configuration runs rings around the
same aircraft with a Jabiru.
Completely forgetting the debate about reliability, the Rotax gets
off in almost half the distance, it climbs 300 to 400 feet faster
every minute and it uses less fuel at a higher cruise speed.....?
Using a Jabiru on a float version of the Hanuman would be a disaster
in my opinion.
Richard Stubbs wrote on 17/10/2021 4:15
pm:
Hi
All
?
These
Jabiru motors are a bit of an enigma. Some seem to last
well, others just don’t! There’s always been this debate
with them as to what fuel to use, all 100 octane Avgas, 95
octane / Avgas mix……? Quite honestly who knows at this
point? When you have an engine that sometimes may go the
distance while? others fail early everyone becomes an expert
on either how best to operate them properly to last or ‘now
we know’ what the problems are!
?
In
my opinion whether you like them or not the Jabiru 85hp 2200
is a road runner without a reduction drive as per the Rotax
582 or 912 series engines. At all up weight when you are hot
and high ‘watch out’! ?
?
Given
that the Hanuman is supposed to be a STOL type
microlight/LSA the question is then ‘Is this the right
engine to begin with’? Certainly not on this airframe I
feel.
?
BR
Richard
?
??
?
?
My Jabiru 2200
had over 600 hours on it when I sold my XAir and the engine
was running flawlessly. ? ? I maintained and operated it as
per Jabiru maintenance requirements. ? ?Cowling had good
cooling design and never had any issue with CHT…….
?
It's
also important to note the aircraft that are in fact
being run with the Jabiru 2200.
That
influences the performance, if the overall engineering
has/had flaws. I.e., the cowling is different on each
aircraft - higher vs lower temperatures, etc.
Also,
lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and
ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s
that end up either mixing or using 91 or 93 MoGas.
I would
like to agree with this because it would be very
comforting but how do you explain all of the failures in
Jabiru aircraft built by the factory. They know what
they're doing after building many for 30 years and they
still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is
just a fact that we have seen by the few operators at
our airfield, all with Jabiru engines in Jabiru
aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and
was heading south with a brand-new engine with all of
the latest modifications and it failed and had to land
at our airfield, this was the latest generation whizbang
everything and in about 8 hours running time the heads
were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2
of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on
16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the
reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by
the quality of its installation than any other
factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it
right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not
properly achieved, they fail with monotonous
regularity.
?
Chaps,
the comments about the Jabiru were not from
me!?
I
own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by
them.
Clive
Cunningham
K&M
HD Motorcycles
10
Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA
5033
Ph.
+618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive
regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200
and I know that 4 of my friends which have
those engine also are happy with this
engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are
lots of additional combonents to look after
and maintain. If you plan to replace to
rotax then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and
14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til: XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults
and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the
water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it
take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine
almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on
water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of
grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the
Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact
that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't
perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)?
replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better
results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax.
Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long
enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at
the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens
of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine
200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new
top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but
if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io>
on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021
3:25:45 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for
Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of
"STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal
reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
> kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io>
on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40
AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for
Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on
10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into
a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for
this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal
amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test
tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact
with petrol.
>> Check the water level again.
Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level
difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel.
?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but
there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16, jgregoris789@...
>>> <mailto:jgregoris789@...>
wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of
this test - how does it work and what do I
need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned
with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between
using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is
nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction,
only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the
grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view,
it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be
used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to
introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas,
and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose
of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big
motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines,
but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference -
am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have
me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any
problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about
8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam
additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR
2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award
2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR
2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...?
<mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of
e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software
in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program
inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.?
Occasionally these mistakes get through our
quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so
please accept my apologies if the odd
mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained
in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the
person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use,
disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever.
If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the
sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it
right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t
get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail
we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an
effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program
inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally
these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please
accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in
this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the
person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose,
distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If
this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the
sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get
it wrong."
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
?
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
?
?
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
?
mailto:mcoates@...
?
skype name:?? xcomavionics
?
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
?
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
?
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
|
With regards, Michael Coates
Pipistrel Aircraft Master Distributor for USA,
Australia & New Zealand
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
Slovenia +386 3041 6470
Email: info@...
Web:
Skype: xcomavionics
|
|
|
Pipistrel Aircraft -
Dealer of the year 2012
Winner of the EAA August
Raspet Award 2012
Pipistrel Aircraft -
Dealer of the year 2017
|
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
Hi All ? These Jabiru motors are a bit of an enigma. Some seem to last well, others just don’t! There’s always been this debate with them as to what fuel to use, all 100 octane Avgas, 95 octane / Avgas mix……? Quite honestly who knows at this point? When you have an engine that sometimes may go the distance while? others fail early everyone becomes an expert on either how best to operate them properly to last or ‘now we know’ what the problems are! ? In my opinion whether you like them or not the Jabiru 85hp 2200 is a road runner without a reduction drive as per the Rotax 582 or 912 series engines. At all up weight when you are hot and high ‘watch out’! ? ? Given that the Hanuman is supposed to be a STOL type microlight/LSA the question is then ‘Is this the right engine to begin with’? Certainly not on this airframe I feel. ? BR Richard ? ?? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: XAIR@groups.io [mailto:XAIR@groups.io] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Gartshore
Sent: Saturday, 16 October 2021 18:45
To: XAIR@groups.io
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol? My Jabiru 2200 had over 600 hours on it when I sold my XAir and the engine was running flawlessly. ? ? I maintained and operated it as per Jabiru maintenance requirements. ? ?Cowling had good cooling design and never had any issue with CHT…….
On Oct 16, 2021, at 12:34 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote: ? It's also important to note the aircraft that are in fact being run with the Jabiru 2200. That influences the performance, if the overall engineering has/had flaws. I.e., the cowling is different on each aircraft - higher vs lower temperatures, etc. Also, lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s that end up either mixing or using 91 or 93 MoGas.
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2021 7:04:37 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol I would like to agree with this because it would be very comforting but how do you explain all of the failures in Jabiru aircraft built by the factory. They know what they're doing after building many for 30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is just a fact that we have seen by the few operators at our airfield, all with Jabiru engines in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and was heading south with a brand-new engine with all of the latest modifications and it failed and had to land at our airfield, this was the latest generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours running time the heads were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 16/10/2021 7:11 pm: From my experience, the reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not properly achieved, they fail with monotonous regularity. ? Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!? I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham K&M HD Motorcycles 10 Deacon Ave Richmond SA 5033 Ph. +618 8234 1090 kmmotor@... kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are lots of additional combonents to look after and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til: XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
> kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16, jgregoris789@...
>>> <mailto:jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...? <mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
-- With regards,??? Michael Coates ? AU +61 7 5522 0583 USA +1 213 984 1237 ? ? PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012 Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012 PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017 ? mailto:mcoates@... ? skype name:?? xcomavionics ? Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process. Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake gets through. ? Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed. No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message. ? "Amateurs practice till they get it right; Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
My Jabiru 2200 had over 600 hours on it when I sold my XAir and the engine was running flawlessly. ? ? I maintained and operated it as per Jabiru maintenance requirements. ? ?Cowling had good cooling design and never had any issue with CHT……. Geoff Gartshore
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 16, 2021, at 12:34 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
It's also important to note the aircraft that are in fact being run with the Jabiru 2200.
That influences the performance, if the overall engineering has/had flaws. I.e., the cowling is different on each aircraft - higher vs lower temperatures, etc.
Also, lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s that end up either mixing or using 91 or 93 MoGas.
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2021 7:04:37 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
I would like to agree with this because it would be very comforting but how do you explain all of the failures in Jabiru aircraft built by the factory. They know what they're doing after building many for 30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is just a fact that we have seen by the few operators at our airfield, all with Jabiru engines in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and was heading south with a brand-new engine with all of the latest modifications and it failed and had to land at our airfield, this was the latest generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours running
time the heads were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not properly achieved,
they fail with monotonous regularity.
Mo.
?
Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA 5033
Ph. +618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are lots of additional combonents to look after and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax
then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates
<mcoates@...>
Til: XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
> kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16,
jgregoris789@...
>>> < mailto:jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...? < mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
With regards, Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name: xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do. Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
It's also important to note the aircraft that are in fact being run with the Jabiru 2200.
That influences the performance, if the overall engineering has/had flaws. I.e., the cowling is different on each aircraft - higher vs lower temperatures, etc.
Also, lead in the AvGas is said to aid in lubricity and ultimately lower temperatures, versus Jabiru 2200s that end up either mixing or using 91 or 93 MoGas.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2021 7:04:37 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
I would like to agree with this because it would be very comforting but how do you explain all of the failures in Jabiru aircraft built by the factory. They know what they're doing after building many for 30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is just a fact that we have seen by the few operators at our airfield, all with Jabiru engines in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and was heading south with a brand-new engine with all of the latest modifications and it failed and had to land at our airfield, this was the latest generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours running
time the heads were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not properly achieved,
they fail with monotonous regularity.
Mo.
?
Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA 5033
Ph. +618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are lots of additional combonents to look after and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax
then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates
<mcoates@...>
Til: XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
> kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io
<XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16,
jgregoris789@...
>>> < mailto:jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...? < mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
With regards, Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name: xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do. Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
I would like to agree with this because it would be very comforting
but how do you explain all of the failures in Jabiru aircraft built
by the factory. They know what they're doing after building many for
30 years and they still have failures.
It sounds like I am Jabiru bashing but I am not, it is just a fact
that we have seen by the few operators at our airfield, all with
Jabiru engines in Jabiru aircraft.
The Jabiru factory demonstrator flew from Bundaberg and was heading
south with a brand-new engine with all of the latest modifications
and it failed and had to land at our airfield, this was the latest
generation whizbang everything and in about 8 hours running time the
heads were shot and there were Scuffing marks On the bore of 2 of
the cylinders....
This was about 12 months ago.
Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on
16/10/2021 7:11 pm:
From my experience, the reliability of any Jab
engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than
any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it
right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not properly
achieved, they fail with monotonous regularity.
Mo.
?
Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA
5033
Ph.
+618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the
Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know
that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are
happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but
there are lots of additional combonents to look after
and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax then
stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more
problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til: XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full
fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water?
not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to
off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass?
mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200
engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most
don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all
that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it
with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with
the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly,
they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be
classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the
aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of
advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours
and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end
and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy
a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on
behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel
stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of
that what you will!
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
> kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on
behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02
am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a
suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark
the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of
Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube,
although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with
petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being
hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being
commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel.
?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are
risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16,
jgregoris789@...
>>> < mailto:jgregoris789@...>
wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does
it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with
ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using
MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near
me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to
fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field
and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not
surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used -
not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce.
Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then
add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of
seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors,
two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never
airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I
missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all
caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems
would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1
compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to
preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...?
< mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we
are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an
effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts
silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these
mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please
accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this
email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to
whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose,
distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this
communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and
delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it
wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are
now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to
speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly
words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these
mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my
apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email
is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom
it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose,
distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this
communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and
delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
--
With regards, Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name: xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do. Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
From my experience, the reliability of any Jab engine is more affected by the quality of its installation than any other factor. ?If sufficient care has been taken to get it right, they run. ?If cooling, for instance, is not properly achieved, they fail with monotonous regularity. Mo.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 15 Oct 2021, at 00:36, Clive Cunningham <kmmotor@...> wrote:
?
Chaps, the comments about the Jabiru were not from me!?
I own a 2200, I am an Aussie, and I stand by them.
Clive Cunningham
K&M HD Motorcycles
10 Deacon Ave
Richmond
SA 5033
Ph. +618 8234 1090
kmmotor@...
kmmotorcycles.com.au
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Bernhard Svavarsson <bern@...>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2021 9:17 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Cc: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
?
Hi Justin
I would not take the comments from Clive regarding the Jabiru engine seriosly.
I have a good experince with my jabiru 2200 and I know that 4 of my friends which have those engine also are happy with this engine. Rotax are fine engine but there are lots of additional combonents to look after and maintain. If you plan to replace to rotax
then stay with the 80hp. The 212 and 14 are more problematic than 80 hp.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Michael Coates <mcoates@...>
Til: XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:53:14 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
Justin Gregoris wrote on 14/10/2021 9:44 pm:
> Many thanks for the reply.
>
> Some more questions about the Hanuman:
>
> - how long will it take with two adults and full fuel with puddle
> jumper amphibious floats to get off the water? not sure because I have
> not flown with the floats
>
> - same situation, but how long will it take to off on grass? the Rotax
> engine about 80 m, the Jabiru engine almost 200 m
>
> - same situation, how long to land on water?
>
> - same situation, how long to land of grass? mostly depends on the
> skill of the pilot
>
> - what is the worst part about the Jabiru 2200 engines? the
> reliability, the oil leaks, the fact that most don't go past 400 hours
> before failure and they simply don't perform all that well on the
> aircraft compared to the Rotax
>
> - any fixes for the above issue(s)? replace it with the Rotax
>
> - any modifications to get better results with the Jabiru 2200? yes,
> sell it and replace it with the Rotax. Honestly, they are just not a
> good fit and they just don't go long enough to be classified as
> anywhere near reliable. Please look at the aviation advertisements for
> Jabiru aircraft and you will see dozens of advertisements or with a
> similar story, Jabiru 600 hours engine 200 hours and so on. They quite
> proudly advertise they have done a new top end and everything else
> when they are selling the aircraft but if you buy a Rotax 99 times out
> of 100 you don't have the same problems
>
> Thanks again, Justin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Clive Cunningham
> <kmmotor@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 11, 2021 3:25:45 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> I enquired with the manufacturer of "STABIL" fuel stabiliser for long
> term storage, about aviation use.
> The answer was " No, for legal reasons". Make of that what you will!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clive Cunningham
>
> K&M HD Motorcycles
>
> 10 Deacon Ave
>
> Richmond
>
> SA 5033
>
> Ph. +618 8234 1090
>
> kmmotor@...
>
> kmmotorcycles.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Michael Coates
> <mcoates@...>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> *To:* XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [XAIR] Testing fuel for Ethanol
> You can also test with this tester
>
>
> <>
>
> Mo Davies via groups.io wrote on 10/10/2021 1:02 am:
>> Put a measured amount of water into a suitable glass vessel. A
>> graduated test tube is ideal for this. Mark the top of the water on
>> the glass vessel. Put in an equal amount of Avgas. Stopper and shake
>> well. A thumb would work on a test tube, although I do not advocate
>> using the thumb in direct contact with petrol.
>> Check the water level again. Ethanol, being hygroscopic, will mix
>> with the water, the level difference being commensurate with the
>> percentage of ethanol in the fuel. ?Presumably it is possible in this
>> way to remove the ethanol, but there are risks involved with
>> ?processing“ fuel in this way.
>> Mo.
>>
>>> On 8 Oct 2021, at 11:16, jgregoris789@...
>>> < mailto:jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?I am not aware of this test - how does it work and what do I need
>>> to buy to complete this?
>>>
>>> I am not particularly concerned with ethanol content, but rather
>>> detonation differences between using MoGas shell 91 or 93 versus
>>> paying 40% for AvGas that is nowhere near me. I would have to drive
>>> 40km in a different direction, only to fill 5, 20litre Cana if
>>> AvGas, then drive back to the grass field and put it in the Hanuman.
>>> From a liability point of view, it is not surprising how Jabiru does
>>> not cover or advise MoGas to be used - not even any additives, which
>>> is another topic is like to introduce. Why can't I purchase good
>>> quality shell 91 or 93 MoGas, and then add good quality octane
>>> booster with an additional dose of seafoam, to preserve the fuel as
>>> it may sit for a couple weeks?
>>>
>>> I have used many small and big motors, two stroke and four stroke
>>> gasoline and Diesel engines, but never airplane motors.
>>>
>>> Is there really a difference - am I missing something or is it the
>>> liability disclaimers that have me all caught up in a knot?
>>>
>>> In essence, I don't see how any problems would arise, knowing these
>>> Jabiru 2200 motors are about 8.1:1 compression ratio, using 91 or 93
>>> shell MoGas, with seafoam additive to preserve and offer some better
>>> lubricity?
>>>
>>> Justin
>
> --
> With regards,??? Michael Coates
>
> AU +61 7 5522 0583
> USA +1 213 984 1237
>
>
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
> Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
> PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
>
> mailto:mcoates@...? < mailto:mcoates@...>
>
> skype name:?? xcomavionics
>
> Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
> done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
> Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
> do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
> proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
> gets through.
>
> Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
> and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
> No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
> information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
> sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
>
> "Amateurs practice till they get it right;
> Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
>
--
With regards,??? Michael Coates
AU +61 7 5522 0583
USA +1 213 984 1237
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2012
Winner of the EAA August Raspet Award 2012
PIPISTREL AIRCRAFT DEALER OF THE YEAR 2017
mailto:mcoates@...
skype name:?? xcomavionics
Please note: because of the volume of e-mail we are now receiving our replies are
done using voice recognition software in an effort to speed up the reply process.
Sometimes the voice recognition program inserts silly words or doesn't actually
do what it is meant to do.? Occasionally these mistakes get through our quick
proofreading of each e-mail sent, so please accept my apologies if the odd mistake
gets through.
Legal Notice: The information contained in this email is confidential
and intended only to be read by the person(s) to whom it is addressed.
No one is authorized to copy, use, disclose, distribute or rely on this
information for any purpose whatsoever. If this communication has been
sent to you in error, please email the sender and delete the message.
"Amateurs practice till they get it right;
Professionals practice till they can’t get it wrong."
|
Re: Jabiru 2200 reliability
On a seperate note: it is my understanding that the low lead content in 100 octane aviation fuel tries to dissipate and reduce heat more so than using 91 or 93 octane mogas.
Is this statement correct? My concern aside from the fact that aviation 100 octane low lead is considerably more expensive is that the lead content may in fact increase susceptibility for valve residue and carbon buildup, ultimately equating to improper engine
operation as well as higher temperatures?
Perhaps using a can of seafoam inside the fuel tank of 100 octane low lead or mixing 91 or 93 octane mogas with no ethanol and 100 octane low lead aviation fuel is best?
Also, using some kind of oil detergent additive inside the crankcase about two or three ounces may also help move the oil around in generation 2 and Generation 3 models?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Bernhard Svavarsson <bern@...>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2021 7:27:22 AM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Jabiru 2200 reliability
?
It is misunderstanding that twin carbs do increase realibility as in Rotax - it does NOT - this more prone to problems such as if carbs are out sync. Rotax did not put twin carbs in their 4 engie cyl. engine to increase realibility.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Brian Ellis via groups.io <bellis2uk@...>
Til: XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 08:07:45 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Jabiru 2200 reliability
It seems that Jab power plants in (damp climates) have problems, unlike Rotax.? The last time I checked a the cylinders unlike Rotax are not Nikasil lined.? That in my opinion would be a good start.
Next the points, replace with an electronic system.
Then twin carbs to increase reliability.
> On 15 Oct 2021, at 03:09, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>
> ?
> Ok thanks.
>
> It also says I have to perform a leak down test every 25hours? It seems excessive, but I'll follow all protocols regardless.
>
> I am trying to find out the spark plug hole diameter? Is it a standard spark plug hole? I think my leak down tester has 10, 12, and 18mm socket threads. Am I ok or do I need some other size?
>
> What else to look for while inspecting the engine before buying?
>
> What oil filter make and model to use?
>
> What oil grade and viscosity to use?
>
> Engine has TT of 137hrs. Off a 2009 x air hanuman.
>
> From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Bernhard Svavarsson <bern@...>
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 10:04:45 PM
> To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [XAIR] Jabiru 2200 reliability
>?
> Hi
> Regarding the last question: (if I understand your question correct)
> If used engine (Jabiru) is bought then be sure you have
> the the engine maintenance records included in the purchase.
> If not do not buy it.
> All required service bulletin updates for the engine
> should be recorded in the engine maintenance book.
>
> Service bulletin info for Jabiru:
>
>
> Serial number for the Jabiru engine can be found on plate
> attached on the engine.
>
> ----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
> Frá: Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...>
> Til: XAIR@groups.io
> Sent: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 01:18:48 -0000 (GMT)
> Efni: Re: [XAIR] Jabiru 2200 reliability
>
> Ok so let's say, hypothetically my motor has not had service bulletin updates issued by Jabiru.
>
> How do I get these updates installed on my motor, based off of technical service bulletins?
>
> Is it like a car dealership - they issue a recall and I schedule my car to go in for service, all for free under warranty?
>
> Do you know of any AME within the GTA who knows Jabiru 2200 motors or know of anyone in Ontario with Jabiru sales and service and parts?
>
> I'm sure during your time with your Jabiru, did they give any technical service bulletins with your motor and serial number?
>
> How are Jabiru owners aware of any technical service bulletins, especially if they buy a used motor?
> ________________________________
> From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 8:31:00 PM
> To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [XAIR] Jabiru 2200 reliability
>
> My motor was 2007.?? Don’t recall serial number.?? It had hydraulic lifters .
>
> If you Google Jabiru engines you should be able to get more info.
>
> Maintain and operate following Jabiru engine requirements and it should serve you well.
>
> Geoff Gartshore
> Zenith CH200 GCUD
> Waterloo, Ontario
>
> On Oct 14, 2021, at 8:09 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>
> ?
> What year was your jabiru motor? And what was the serial number, if you recall?
>
> What would you do if my serial number motor does not have the hydraulic lifters?
>
> Lastly, what are you specifically referring to when you mentioned proper maintenance and operation?
> ________________________________
> From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 7:33:49 PM
> To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [XAIR] Jabiru 2200 reliability
>
> I agree with Bernhard.?? My Jabiru 2200 worked just fine for the 8 years I had it.?? I put at least 500 hours on it and it had lots of life when I sold my XAir.? With proper operation and maintenance it should go the distance.??? The Jabiru is very simple
and straightforward, with only a single carb to deal with.??? It runs at lower rpm’s, and is very smooth.? The only issue with it is the lack of a strong dealer network in North America.??? In 2017 when I sold the plane the only overhaul option was to ship
it to Tennessee.?? This was one of the reasons I decided to sell and go with Lycoming.??? The Rotax is a good engine but more complicated, with dual carbs that must be tuned, etc.?? it also runs at much higher rpm’s, which provides the good torque.?? The dealer
network is more numerous in N America.
>
> Check the serial number in the Jabiru in question - you want the version with hydraulic lifters.
>
> Geoff Gartshore
> Zenith CH200 GCUD
> Waterloo, Ontario
>
> On Oct 14, 2021, at 6:54 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
>
> ?What serial numbers of these Jabiru 2200 motors are the more problematic motors?
>
> How do I know which serial numbers belong to which generation of the jabiru 2200?
>
> I am assuming finding out the serial number of the motor will cross reference to what generation of motor it is - subsequently enabling me to find out what parts and service bulletins went out to maintain reliability?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
|
Re: Testing fuel for Ethanol
The chemistry of ethanol is the same wherever you live. It actually boosts the octane level of petrol fuel by 3 or 4 points, thus is an effective anti knock agent (reducing the chance of detonation). ?The downside is that it absorbs water, bringing corrosion issues. It also leaches out the softeners in rubber components, like older fuel pipes. Components made after about 2012 are usually made from compounds which are not affected . ?There are numerous videos on YouTube showing how to remove the ethanol from petrol . What you have to remember is that, if you do this, you reduce the octane rating of your residue and you also remove some of the many other good additives ! So you need to add an octane booster at least ! ?I'm not clear why one would need to test for ethanol, the percentage is shown on the pumps in UK . Regular petrol is E10 ( 10%) and premium is E5 (5%) . It is worth adding a preserver to fuel which is going to be standing, all fuels degrade when exposed to air. Store it in sealed cans .
?Main thing is the degradation of rubber components, beware of brittle old pipes , replace them with modern ones . Same with old diaphragms and seals.
?Hope that helps somebody.
Huw
|
Re: Jabiru 2200 reliability
It is misunderstanding that twin carbs do increase realibility as in Rotax - it does NOT - this more prone to problems such as if carbs are out sync. Rotax did not put twin carbs in their 4 engie cyl. engine to increase realibility.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Brian Ellis via groups.io <bellis2uk@...>
Til: XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 08:07:45 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Jabiru 2200 reliability
It seems that Jab power plants in (damp climates) have problems, unlike Rotax. The last time I checked a the cylinders unlike Rotax are not Nikasil lined. That in my opinion would be a good start.
Next the points, replace with an electronic system.
Then twin carbs to increase reliability.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 15 Oct 2021, at 03:09, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
Ok thanks.
It also says I have to perform a leak down test every 25hours? It seems excessive, but I'll follow all protocols regardless.
I am trying to find out the spark plug hole diameter? Is it a standard spark plug hole? I think my leak down tester has 10, 12, and 18mm socket threads. Am I ok or do I need some other size?
What else to look for while inspecting the engine before buying?
What oil filter make and model to use?
What oil grade and viscosity to use?
Engine has TT of 137hrs. Off a 2009 x air hanuman.
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Bernhard Svavarsson <bern@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 10:04:45 PM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Jabiru 2200 reliability
Hi
Regarding the last question: (if I understand your question correct)
If used engine (Jabiru) is bought then be sure you have
the the engine maintenance records included in the purchase.
If not do not buy it.
All required service bulletin updates for the engine
should be recorded in the engine maintenance book.
Service bulletin info for Jabiru:
Serial number for the Jabiru engine can be found on plate
attached on the engine.
----- Upprunalegt skeyti -----
Frá: Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...>
Til: XAIR@groups.io
Sent: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 01:18:48 -0000 (GMT)
Efni: Re: [XAIR] Jabiru 2200 reliability
Ok so let's say, hypothetically my motor has not had service bulletin updates issued by Jabiru.
How do I get these updates installed on my motor, based off of technical service bulletins?
Is it like a car dealership - they issue a recall and I schedule my car to go in for service, all for free under warranty?
Do you know of any AME within the GTA who knows Jabiru 2200 motors or know of anyone in Ontario with Jabiru sales and service and parts?
I'm sure during your time with your Jabiru, did they give any technical service bulletins with your motor and serial number?
How are Jabiru owners aware of any technical service bulletins, especially if they buy a used motor?
________________________________
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 8:31:00 PM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Jabiru 2200 reliability
My motor was 2007. Don’t recall serial number. It had hydraulic lifters .
If you Google Jabiru engines you should be able to get more info.
Maintain and operate following Jabiru engine requirements and it should serve you well.
Geoff Gartshore
Zenith CH200 GCUD
Waterloo, Ontario
On Oct 14, 2021, at 8:09 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?
What year was your jabiru motor? And what was the serial number, if you recall?
What would you do if my serial number motor does not have the hydraulic lifters?
Lastly, what are you specifically referring to when you mentioned proper maintenance and operation?
________________________________
From: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io> on behalf of Geoffrey Gartshore <geoff.gartshore@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 7:33:49 PM
To: XAIR@groups.io <XAIR@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [XAIR] Jabiru 2200 reliability
I agree with Bernhard. My Jabiru 2200 worked just fine for the 8 years I had it. I put at least 500 hours on it and it had lots of life when I sold my XAir. With proper operation and maintenance it should go the distance. The Jabiru is very simple and straightforward, with only a single carb to deal with. It runs at lower rpm’s, and is very smooth. The only issue with it is the lack of a strong dealer network in North America. In 2017 when I sold the plane the only overhaul option was to ship it to Tennessee. This was one of the reasons I decided to sell and go with Lycoming. The Rotax is a good engine but more complicated, with dual carbs that must be tuned, etc. it also runs at much higher rpm’s, which provides the good torque. The dealer network is more numerous in N America.
Check the serial number in the Jabiru in question - you want the version with hydraulic lifters.
Geoff Gartshore
Zenith CH200 GCUD
Waterloo, Ontario
On Oct 14, 2021, at 6:54 PM, Justin Gregoris <jgregoris789@...> wrote:
?What serial numbers of these Jabiru 2200 motors are the more problematic motors?
How do I know which serial numbers belong to which generation of the jabiru 2200?
I am assuming finding out the serial number of the motor will cross reference to what generation of motor it is - subsequently enabling me to find out what parts and service bulletins went out to maintain reliability?
|
Geoffrey Gartshore
