|
Before Nikkos gets overexcited with his lusty young lads (?), I have
painted up some Jock officers and pipers this weekend, Camerons and
Black Watch if you're interested, for my 1940 bash. Regulations
restricted the kilt to home service, but in reality a few men tended
to be equipped with them in the field. Therefore, take your average
British Company, add some red haired officer and a bloke playing the
pipes, both in skirts of course, and we have a Scots Company.
But what effect should the "Peeps" have? On refelection their main
impact seems to have been three fold. Firstly they acted as a device
for co-ordinating an attack (lots of people could hear them).
Secondly they got the blood up of the blokes advancing with them.
Thirdly they scared the shit out of the Germans (Eyeties etc.).
So, I thought, how about the following.
An advance led by bagpipes means that the leading Big Man may, on the
turn of his card, move the entire Platoon he is heading, and not just
one or more sections. This only applies to the force if it is
advancing at full speed, and would not be applicable to firing,
spotting etc.
Scots troops led by the pipes will gain an additional three dice in
any melee they are led into. Axis troops attacked by pipe led Jocks
will lose three dice.
Rich
|
Rich
Not "The Devils in Skirts"!! Where's Terry Scott!?
My initial feeling is that you've given too big a bonus for the pipes.
Insted of enabling the CO to move every section, which does give him excellent
command and control - better than elite troops like german paras etc, how
about having a "peeps" card, which acts as a bonus platoon card? Alternatively,
issue the jocks with an extra dice for firing and movement when under the
effect of the wee dreaded windy things.
As for the hun, perhaps the sound of the pipes would make them less
crafty, making them more edgy and more prone to opening fire at longer
ranges (a la French 1940) rather than holding their fire. Perhaps some
wehrmacht units will not advance when confronted with swirling pipes UNLESS
an officer tells them to grow up and get on with it?
+3 dice? for attacker against -3 dice for defender is a big difference
in melee, but I'd happily play it to see how it goes (on the basis that
everybody buggers off before you ever get to melee anyway so who cares
what the rule is!). It may need toning down.
Food for thought....
?
?
?
?
richardclarkerli wrote:
?Before Nikkos gets overexcited with his
lusty young lads (?), I have
painted up some Jock officers and pipers this weekend, Camerons
and
Black Watch if you're interested, for my 1940 bash.? Regulations
restricted the kilt to home service, but in reality a few men tended
to be equipped with them in the field.? Therefore, take your
average
British Company, add some red haired officer and a bloke playing
the
pipes, both in skirts of course, and we have a Scots Company.
But what effect should the "Peeps" have?? On refelection their
main
impact seems to have been three fold.? Firstly they acted
as a device
for co-ordinating an attack (lots of people could hear them).
Secondly they got the blood up of the blokes advancing with them.
Thirdly they scared the shit out of the Germans (Eyeties etc.).
So, I thought, how about the following.
An advance led by bagpipes means that the leading Big Man may, on
the
turn of his card, move the entire Platoon he is heading, and not
just
one or more sections.? This only applies to the force if it
is
advancing at full speed, and would not be applicable to firing,
spotting etc.
Scots troops led by the pipes will gain an additional three dice
in
any melee they are led into.? Axis troops attacked by pipe
led Jocks
will lose three dice.
Rich
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Nick The movement thing reflects the fact that while the piper pipes people will keep moving, in the same way that troops did in previous centuries. It does NOT make people shoot better, and, indeed, only applies when the entire Platoon is moving its full distance. As such, whilst it is a bonus in a certain context, it is no universal panacea. Three dice is half a hit (6's killing), so the pipes will average out making a difference of 1 hit in a melee, not a lot, but enough to make it worth undertaking, or at least being considered. I think we get to melee about as often as it happened in real life. It's really only close terrain that would see that sort of fisticuffs anyway. Rich --- In Toofatlardies@..., nick.skinner@w... wrote: Rich
Not "The Devils in Skirts"!! Where's Terry Scott!?
My initial feeling is that you've given too big a bonus for the pipes. Insted of enabling the CO to move every section, which does give him
excellent command and control - better than elite troops like german
paras etc, how about having a "peeps" card, which acts as a bonus
platoon card? Alternatively, issue the jocks with an extra dice for
firing and movement when under the effect of the wee dreaded windy
things.
As for the hun, perhaps the sound of the pipes would make them less
crafty, making them more edgy and more prone to opening fire at longer ranges (a la French 1940) rather than holding their fire. Perhaps some wehrmacht units will not advance when confronted with swirling pipes
UNLESS an officer tells them to grow up and get on with it?
+3 dice for attacker against -3 dice for defender is a big difference in melee, but I'd happily play it to see how it goes (on the basis that everybody buggers off before you ever get to melee anyway so who cares what the rule is!). It may need toning down.
Food for thought....
richardclarkerli wrote:
Before Nikkos gets overexcited with his lusty young lads (?), I have painted up some Jock officers and pipers this weekend, Camerons
and Black Watch if you're interested, for my 1940 bash. Regulations
restricted the kilt to home service, but in reality a few men
tended to be equipped with them in the field. Therefore, take your
average British Company, add some red haired officer and a bloke playing
the pipes, both in skirts of course, and we have a Scots Company.
But what effect should the "Peeps" have? On refelection their
main impact seems to have been three fold. Firstly they acted as a
device for co-ordinating an attack (lots of people could hear them).
Secondly they got the blood up of the blokes advancing with them.
Thirdly they scared the shit out of the Germans (Eyeties etc.).
So, I thought, how about the following.
An advance led by bagpipes means that the leading Big Man may, on
the turn of his card, move the entire Platoon he is heading, and not
just one or more sections. This only applies to the force if it is
advancing at full speed, and would not be applicable to firing,
spotting etc.
Scots troops led by the pipes will gain an additional three dice
in any melee they are led into. Axis troops attacked by pipe led
Jocks will lose three dice.
Rich
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
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Service.
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Given that the Scots would be inspired by the sound of the
peeps, should not the morale effect of the piper being a casualty also be
considered.....?? To hear only the first few bars of "Cock of the North"
before the piper is killed would no doubt send many a Scottish soldier into a
gloomy introspection, muttering "We're Doooomed" to any who'll
listen....
?
I can't remember how you deal with morale in IABSM - but in
the event of the piper being shot, perhaps an instant morale test would be
appropriate, with an appropriate reduction for the loss of the
piper?
?
Sid
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 11:42
AM
Subject: [Toofatlardies] Re: The skirl of
the pipes
Nick
The movement thing reflects the fact that while
the piper pipes
people will keep moving, in the same way that troops did
in previous
centuries.? It does NOT make people shoot better, and,
indeed, only
applies when the entire Platoon is moving its full
distance.? As
such, whilst it is a bonus in a certain context, it is
no universal
panacea.?
Three dice is half a hit (6's
killing), so the pipes will average out
making a difference of 1 hit in a
melee, not a lot, but enough to
make it worth undertaking, or at least
being considered.?????
I think we get to
melee about as often as it happened in real life.?
It's really only
close terrain that would see that sort of fisticuffs
anyway.?
Rich
--- In Toofatlardies@...,
nick.skinner@w... wrote:
> Rich
> Not "The Devils in Skirts"!!
Where's Terry Scott!?
>
> My initial feeling is that you've given
too big a bonus for the
pipes.
> Insted of enabling the CO to move
every section, which does give him
> excellent command and control -
better than elite troops like german
> paras etc, how about having a
"peeps" card, which acts as a bonus
> platoon card? Alternatively, issue
the jocks with an extra dice for
> firing and movement when under the
effect of the wee dreaded windy
> things.
>
> As for the
hun, perhaps the sound of the pipes would make them less
> crafty,
making them more edgy and more prone to opening fire at
longer
>
ranges (a la French 1940) rather than holding their fire. Perhaps
some
> wehrmacht units will not advance when confronted with
swirling pipes
> UNLESS an officer tells them to grow up and get on with
it?
>
> +3 dice? for attacker against -3 dice for defender
is a big
difference
> in melee, but I'd happily play it to see how
it goes (on the basis
that
> everybody buggers off before you ever
get to melee anyway so who
cares
> what the rule is!). It may need
toning down.
>
> Food for thought....
>
>
>
>
>
> richardclarkerli wrote:
>
> >?
Before Nikkos gets overexcited with his lusty young lads (?), I
have
> > painted up some Jock officers and pipers this weekend,
Camerons
and
> > Black Watch if you're interested, for my 1940
bash.? Regulations
> > restricted the kilt to home service, but
in reality a few men
tended
> > to be equipped with them in the
field.? Therefore, take your
average
> > British Company,
add some red haired officer and a bloke playing
the
> > pipes,
both in skirts of course, and we have a Scots Company.
> >
>
> But what effect should the "Peeps" have?? On refelection their
main
> > impact seems to have been three fold.? Firstly they
acted as a
device
> > for co-ordinating an attack (lots of people
could hear them).
> > Secondly they got the blood up of the blokes
advancing with them.
> > Thirdly they scared the shit out of the
Germans (Eyeties etc.).
> >
> > So, I thought, how about the
following.
> >
> > An advance led by bagpipes means that the
leading Big Man may, on
the
> > turn of his card, move the entire
Platoon he is heading, and not
just
> > one or more
sections.? This only applies to the force if it is
> > advancing
at full speed, and would not be applicable to firing,
> > spotting
etc.
> >
> > Scots troops led by the pipes will gain an
additional three dice
in
> > any melee they are led into.?
Axis troops attacked by pipe led
Jocks
> > will lose three
dice.
> >
> > Rich
> >
> >
>
>
> >
>
>???????????????????
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
> >
> > To
unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
>
>
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
To
unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
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Your
use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
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Sidney That is an issue. I would be keen not to overlegislate in the rules for every occurence. Losing the aforementioned advantages would seem sufficient for me. For a start the co-ordination of the attack, previously well shaped due to the pipes, would start to fall off. The Big Man would only be able to move one section if they were under fire so only the Platoon card would be useful in keeping things rolling, i.e. half the chance than when the pipes were in use. What originally looked like a good bet has now had its odds halved, and, to extend the analogy, may well be a non-runner. Anyway, surely all Scotsmen can play the pipes, another would emerge from the ranks to fill his skirt and boots;-) How are things near Sonmou? Cheers Rich --- In Toofatlardies@..., "Adam Blakemore" <adam.blakemore1@b...> wrote: Given that the Scots would be inspired by the sound of the peeps, should not the morale effect of the piper being a casualty also be considered.....? To hear only the first few bars of "Cock of the North" before the piper is killed would no doubt send many a Scottish soldier into a gloomy introspection, muttering "We're Doooomed" to any who'll listen....
I can't remember how you deal with morale in IABSM - but in the
event of the piper being shot, perhaps an instant morale test would be appropriate, with an appropriate reduction for the loss of the piper?
Sid
----- Original Message -----
From: richardclarkerli
To: Toofatlardies@...
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 11:42 AM
Subject: [Toofatlardies] Re: The skirl of the pipes
Nick
The movement thing reflects the fact that while the piper pipes
people will keep moving, in the same way that troops did in
previous centuries. It does NOT make people shoot better, and, indeed, only applies when the entire Platoon is moving its full distance. As
such, whilst it is a bonus in a certain context, it is no universal panacea.
Three dice is half a hit (6's killing), so the pipes will average out making a difference of 1 hit in a melee, not a lot, but enough to
make it worth undertaking, or at least being considered.
I think we get to melee about as often as it happened in real life. It's really only close terrain that would see that sort of fisticuffs anyway.
Rich
--- In Toofatlardies@..., nick.skinner@w... wrote:
> Rich
> Not "The Devils in Skirts"!! Where's Terry Scott!?
>
> My initial feeling is that you've given too big a bonus for the
pipes.
> Insted of enabling the CO to move every section, which does give him > excellent command and control - better than elite troops like german > paras etc, how about having a "peeps" card, which acts as a bonus > platoon card? Alternatively, issue the jocks with an extra dice for > firing and movement when under the effect of the wee dreaded windy > things.
>
> As for the hun, perhaps the sound of the pipes would make them less > crafty, making them more edgy and more prone to opening fire at
longer
> ranges (a la French 1940) rather than holding their fire. Perhaps some
> wehrmacht units will not advance when confronted with swirling pipes > UNLESS an officer tells them to grow up and get on with it?
>
> +3 dice for attacker against -3 dice for defender is a big
difference
> in melee, but I'd happily play it to see how it goes (on the basis that
> everybody buggers off before you ever get to melee anyway so who cares
> what the rule is!). It may need toning down.
>
> Food for thought....
>
>
>
>
>
> richardclarkerli wrote:
>
> > Before Nikkos gets overexcited with his lusty young lads (?), I have
> > painted up some Jock officers and pipers this weekend, Camerons and
> > Black Watch if you're interested, for my 1940 bash. Regulations > > restricted the kilt to home service, but in reality a few men
tended
> > to be equipped with them in the field. Therefore, take your
average
> > British Company, add some red haired officer and a bloke playing the
> > pipes, both in skirts of course, and we have a Scots Company.
> >
> > But what effect should the "Peeps" have? On refelection their main
> > impact seems to have been three fold. Firstly they acted as a device
> > for co-ordinating an attack (lots of people could hear them).
> > Secondly they got the blood up of the blokes advancing with them. > > Thirdly they scared the shit out of the Germans (Eyeties etc.). > >
> > So, I thought, how about the following.
> >
> > An advance led by bagpipes means that the leading Big Man may, on the
> > turn of his card, move the entire Platoon he is heading, and not just
> > one or more sections. This only applies to the force if it is
> > advancing at full speed, and would not be applicable to firing, > > spotting etc.
> >
> > Scots troops led by the pipes will gain an additional three dice in
> > any melee they are led into. Axis troops attacked by pipe led Jocks
> > will lose three dice.
> >
> > Rich
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
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"How are things near Sonmou?"
He's nowhere near Sonmou! Probably could ne pas get to Sonmou if nous
came out avec un axi for him. Il est too busy blubbing dans his
bratwurst and regardez les nice 'oles notre brave char Francais avais
made in his big fat boche tanks. Blitzkreig mon pied.
Sid in Sonmou - PAS!! il est un fag!
By the way - dare you to look in the cellar!
With love
The Brave French Army (Pllllllllrrrrpppp!)
richardclarkerli wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Sidney
That is an issue. I would be keen not to overlegislate in the rules
for every occurence. Losing the aforementioned advantages would seem
sufficient for me. For a start the co-ordination of the attack,
previously well shaped due to the pipes, would start to fall off.
The Big Man would only be able to move one section if they were under
fire so only the Platoon card would be useful in keeping things
rolling, i.e. half the chance than when the pipes were in use. What
originally looked like a good bet has now had its odds halved, and,
to extend the analogy, may well be a non-runner.
Anyway, surely all Scotsmen can play the pipes, another would emerge
from the ranks to fill his skirt and boots;-)
How are things near Sonmou?
Cheers
Rich
--- In Toofatlardies@..., "Adam Blakemore"
<adam.blakemore1@b...> wrote:
Given that the Scots would be inspired by the sound of the peeps, should not the morale effect of the piper being a casualty also be
considered.....? To hear only the first few bars of "Cock of the
North" before the piper is killed would no doubt send many a Scottish
soldier into a gloomy introspection, muttering "We're Doooomed" to
any who'll listen....
I can't remember how you deal with morale in IABSM - but in the
event of the piper being shot, perhaps an instant morale test would
be appropriate, with an appropriate reduction for the loss of the
piper?
Sid
----- Original Message -----
From: richardclarkerli
To: Toofatlardies@...
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 11:42 AM
Subject: [Toofatlardies] Re: The skirl of the pipes
Nick
The movement thing reflects the fact that while the piper pipes
people will keep moving, in the same way that troops did in
previous
centuries. It does NOT make people shoot better, and, indeed, only
applies when the entire Platoon is moving its full distance. As
such, whilst it is a bonus in a certain context, it is no universal
panacea.
Three dice is half a hit (6's killing), so the pipes will average out
making a difference of 1 hit in a melee, not a lot, but enough to
make it worth undertaking, or at least being considered.
I think we get to melee about as often as it happened in real life.
It's really only close terrain that would see that sort of fisticuffs
anyway.
Rich
--- In Toofatlardies@..., nick.skinner@w... wrote:
> Rich
> Not "The Devils in Skirts"!! Where's Terry Scott!?
>
> My initial feeling is that you've given too big a bonus for the
pipes.
> Insted of enabling the CO to move every section, which does give him
> excellent command and control - better than elite troops like german
> paras etc, how about having a "peeps" card, which acts as a bonus
> platoon card? Alternatively, issue the jocks with an extra dice for
> firing and movement when under the effect of the wee dreaded windy
> things.
>
> As for the hun, perhaps the sound of the pipes would make them less
> crafty, making them more edgy and more prone to opening fire at
longer
> ranges (a la French 1940) rather than holding their fire. Perhaps
some
> wehrmacht units will not advance when confronted with swirling pipes
> UNLESS an officer tells them to grow up and get on with it?
>
> +3 dice for attacker against -3 dice for defender is a big
difference
> in melee, but I'd happily play it to see how it goes (on the basis
that
> everybody buggers off before you ever get to melee anyway so who
cares
> what the rule is!). It may need toning down.
>
> Food for thought....
>
>
>
>
>
> richardclarkerli wrote:
>
> > Before Nikkos gets overexcited with his lusty young lads (?), I
have
> > painted up some Jock officers and pipers this weekend, Camerons
and
> > Black Watch if you're interested, for my 1940 bash. Regulations
> > restricted the kilt to home service, but in reality a few men
tended
> > to be equipped with them in the field. Therefore, take your
average
> > British Company, add some red haired officer and a bloke playing
the
> > pipes, both in skirts of course, and we have a Scots Company.
> >
> > But what effect should the "Peeps" have? On refelection their
main
> > impact seems to have been three fold. Firstly they acted as a
device
> > for co-ordinating an attack (lots of people could hear them).
> > Secondly they got the blood up of the blokes advancing with them.
> > Thirdly they scared the shit out of the Germans (Eyeties etc.).
> >
> > So, I thought, how about the following.
> >
> > An advance led by bagpipes means that the leading Big Man may, on
the
> > turn of his card, move the entire Platoon he is heading, and not
just
> > one or more sections. This only applies to the force if it is > > advancing at full speed, and would not be applicable to firing,
> > spotting etc.
> >
> > Scots troops led by the pipes will gain an additional three dice
in
> > any melee they are led into. Axis troops attacked by pipe led
Jocks
> > will lose three dice.
> >
> > Rich
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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|
Being a rabid Anglo-Saxon, I think you're overdoing the effect here.
With only a musket in hand, I can perceive the morale impact. With
automatic weapons, I'm not so sure.
And imagine how hard it is to hear "flower of Scotland" in the middle
of an artillery barrage.. The English fans manage to drown out every
visiting team's national anthem by simple whistles.
So, what about a pipes bonus card, whereby all sections within a
radius of the piper can move. Same as a German blitzkreig card, i.e.
they can't fire or spot, just go forward.
In terms of melee bonus, I would say that the Scots should be classed
as "agressive", as would other shock troops, as once in hand to hand
I'm not sure how much effect the pipes themselves would have. Perhaps
Germans of average and below fighting ability should have a
supression point inflicted if within a certain radius of the pipes?
Daz
|
Forgive this long piece, but as the wife is out tonight, I've been looking
online at bagpipes in combat (and will move on to the more interesting
websites that Noddy told me about later). Most of what I found was complete
rubbish - and so is this - but it shows that choice of tune should have
an important effect....
(I love the bit about the guy who "died but was still playing"...reminds
me of Mad Mick, the salesman with the boob-job wife whose friend died twice
playing American football - remember him?)
?
"Each company was to be played into action by its piper. At El Alamein
the pipers were given specific tunes to play, usually the company marches.
These varied according to the battalion, from "The Nut Brown Maiden" and
"The Black Bear" through tunes like "The Atholl Highlanders" and "Scotland
the Brave" to "Lord Alexander Kennedy," a formidably difficult tune to
play at regulation marching speed, and difficult for a novice to play at
all.
The battle began at twenty to ten - 2140 in army terms - on October
23, 1942. It opened with an intense artillery bombardment from more than
800 guns. Twenty minutes later the assaulting infantry crossed the Start
Line.
The enemy reacted swiftly, initially with intense artillery defensive
fire and as the Infantry approaced their objectives, with heavy and accurate
machine gun fire. All accounts describe how the pipers strode forward,
apparently unconcerned, through the dust raised by the bursting enemy shells.
An officer of the 1st Black Watch recalled, "The few pipers we had were
playing their companies forward all the time. I had the greatest difficulty
in preventing the Pipe Corporal from walking into the anti-personnel trip
wires which you could generally see in the moonlight." A 5th Black Watch
officer wrote, "The bit I left out was about the company pipers who played
us across No Man's Land. They were very good, quite oblivious of the hell
going on around them." The 5th Seaforth was one of the two battalions securing
the Start Line. One officer wrote, "Then we saw a sight that will live
forever in our memories. Line upon line of steel helmeted figures with
rifles at the 'High Port', bayonets catching the moonlight and over all
the wailing of the pipes." Another 5th Seaforth account relates how the
pipers played "Highland Laddie" as the battalion attacked later in the
night and how "we were gripped with an indefinable pride in our division."
The 5th Camerons' task was to secure Inverness so that 7th Black Watch
could pass through. The Camerons advanced with the pipers playing in the
lead. One company commander recalls how his company piper, Donald Macpherson
from Broadford, Isle of Skye, had been ordered to play "The Inverness Gathering"
during the advance. A good tune, maybe, but not particularly inspiring,
so Donald soon broke into "The Cameron Men," which saw the company on to
their objective. The 7th Black Watch then appeared through the dusty moonlight.
It was clear that, in the regimental tradition, the Black Watch blood was
up from their battle cries and shouted slogans. To ensure that the Camerons
were not mistaken for Germans, Donald was ordered to play "Pibroch o' Donald
Dubh" which luckily the Black Watch recognized. The 7th Argylls' history,
written by Capt. Iain C. Cameron of Islay, tells how "Paisley" was mopped
up with the piper playing the regimental charge "Monymusk", while "A" company
piper played "Blue Bonnets" during the advance.
Inevitably there were casualties among the pipers. The 5th Black Watch
history tells how "A" company approached their objective, "Montrose", their
piper, Duncan MacIntyre, playing in their centre. Suddenly he was hit,
but carried on playing, breaking into the regimental march, "Highland Laddie"
as the assault went in. He was hit again and died, still playing. The next
morning Duncan was found with his pipes still under his arm, his fingers
on the chanter".
Nicked from:
?
therugdoctor2003 wrote:
?Being a rabid Anglo-Saxon, I think you're
overdoing the effect here.
With only a musket in hand, I can perceive the morale impact. With
automatic weapons, I'm not so sure.
And imagine how hard it is to hear "flower of Scotland" in the middle
of an artillery barrage..? The English fans manage to drown
out every
visiting team's national anthem by simple whistles.
So, what about a pipes bonus card, whereby all sections within a
radius of the piper can move. Same as a German blitzkreig card,
i.e.
they can't fire or spot, just go forward.
In terms of melee bonus, I would say that the Scots should be classed
as "agressive", as would other shock troops, as once in hand to
hand
I'm not sure how much effect the pipes themselves would have. Perhaps
Germans of average and below fighting ability should have a
supression point inflicted if within a certain radius of the pipes?
Daz
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Lards
I tend to agree with Dazza, getting into national characteristics is a minefield. We can find similar descriptions for other troops eg Ghurka's who didn't need pipes for the bad guys to be panicking! Nick's well researched descriptions are classic descriptions of aggressive troops going into action, so aggressive troops bonus would seem correct.
Mick
|
Lards I think that to us Anglo-Saxons (although on my mother's side I am quite Norman) the pipes would probably mean less than to a Scot (or even a celt, as the Irish had them as well). It would seem from Nick's "reseach" that it obviously meant a lot to them in terms of ensuring a coherent advance and getting their blood up for the fight. Equally the recognition effect is interesting in a night attack. Added to that it would seem to confirm my thoughts that the piper was an appendage of the officer he was with. As such I think that allowing the officer to move (and not fire or spot or anything else) his whole Platoon would seem right. Indeed it is similar to the Blitzkrieg card, and Darren is correct in that it should be limited by having all of the sections close together and doing the same thing. The loss of dice for Germans in melee is based on lots of historical evidence that the Germans did not like facing Scots troops, indeed I don't think anyone has ever "liked " that, and frankly 3 dice is a pretty limited reduction or addition. Rich --- In Toofatlardies@..., nick.skinner@w... wrote: Forgive this long piece, but as the wife is out tonight, I've been
looking online at bagpipes in combat (and will move on to the more
interesting websites that Noddy told me about later). Most of what I
found was complete rubbish - and so is this - but it shows that choice of tune should have an important effect....
(I love the bit about the guy who "died but was still playing"...reminds me of Mad Mick, the salesman with the boob-job wife whose friend died twice playing American football - remember him?)
"Each company was to be played into action by its piper. At El Alamein the pipers were given specific tunes to play, usually the company
marches. These varied according to the battalion, from "The Nut Brown Maiden" and "The Black Bear" through tunes like "The Atholl Highlanders" and "Scotland the Brave" to "Lord Alexander Kennedy," a formidably
difficult tune to play at regulation marching speed, and difficult for a novice to play at all.
The battle began at twenty to ten - 2140 in army terms - on October 23, 1942. It opened with an intense artillery bombardment from more than 800 guns. Twenty minutes later the assaulting infantry crossed the Start
Line.
The enemy reacted swiftly, initially with intense artillery defensive fire and as the Infantry approaced their objectives, with heavy and
accurate machine gun fire. All accounts describe how the pipers strode forward, apparently unconcerned, through the dust raised by the bursting enemy shells. An officer of the 1st Black Watch recalled, "The few
pipers we had were playing their companies forward all the time. I had the greatest difficulty in preventing the Pipe Corporal from walking
into the anti-personnel trip wires which you could generally see in the moonlight." A 5th Black Watch officer wrote, "The bit I left out was
about the company pipers who played us across No Man's Land. They were very good, quite oblivious of the hell going on around them." The 5th Seaforth was one of the two battalions securing the Start Line. One
officer wrote, "Then we saw a sight that will live forever in our
memories. Line upon line of steel helmeted figures with rifles at the 'High Port', bayonets catching the moonlight and over all the wailing of the pipes." Another 5th Seaforth account relates how the pipers played "Highland Laddie" as the battalion attacked later in the night and how "we were gripped with an indefinable pride in our division."
The 5th Camerons' task was to secure Inverness so that 7th Black Watch could pass through. The Camerons advanced with the pipers playing in the lead. One company commander recalls how his company piper, Donald
Macpherson from Broadford, Isle of Skye, had been ordered to play "The Inverness Gathering" during the advance. A good tune, maybe, but not
particularly inspiring, so Donald soon broke into "The Cameron Men,"
which saw the company on to their objective. The 7th Black Watch then appeared through the dusty moonlight. It was clear that, in the
regimental tradition, the Black Watch blood was up from their battle
cries and shouted slogans. To ensure that the Camerons were not mistaken for Germans, Donald was ordered to play "Pibroch o' Donald Dubh" which luckily the Black Watch recognized. The 7th Argylls' history, written by Capt. Iain C. Cameron of Islay, tells how "Paisley" was mopped up with the piper playing the regimental charge "Monymusk", while "A" company piper played "Blue Bonnets" during the advance.
Inevitably there were casualties among the pipers. The 5th Black Watch history tells how "A" company approached their objective, "Montrose", their piper, Duncan MacIntyre, playing in their centre. Suddenly he was hit, but carried on playing, breaking into the regimental march,
"Highland Laddie" as the assault went in. He was hit again and died,
still playing. The next morning Duncan was found with his pipes still under his arm, his fingers on the chanter".
Nicked from:
therugdoctor2003 wrote:
Being a rabid Anglo-Saxon, I think you're overdoing the effect here. With only a musket in hand, I can perceive the morale impact. With
automatic weapons, I'm not so sure.
And imagine how hard it is to hear "flower of Scotland" in the
middle of an artillery barrage.. The English fans manage to drown out
every visiting team's national anthem by simple whistles.
So, what about a pipes bonus card, whereby all sections within a
radius of the piper can move. Same as a German blitzkreig card,
i.e. they can't fire or spot, just go forward.
In terms of melee bonus, I would say that the Scots should be
classed as "agressive", as would other shock troops, as once in hand to
hand I'm not sure how much effect the pipes themselves would have.
Perhaps Germans of average and below fighting ability should have a
supression point inflicted if within a certain radius of the
pipes?
Daz
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However getting into national characteristics is what the rules are about. We use a number of factors to differentiate each nation, giving certain bonuses, using different numbers of Big Men to reflect the effectiveness of their command and control. Indeed certain cards are unique to specific nationalities, so why come to a sudden stop when we come to the pipes. These Scots troops will already have better factors as they are good troops, but I still feel that the pipes should receive some benefit on the tabletop. Indeed if you show me another musical instrument that was used in a similar fashion then I'll apply it to that as well. In fact on D-Day there were plenty of officers who took hunting horns along, not just for some show of bravado, but because it was an effective way of communication. Major Howard at Pegasus bridge being a classic example. I am less bothered about the pluses in melee than I am about the co-ordination effect, all that will do is in lessen the chance of the attack bogging down by allowing an officer who is leading an attack by his Platoon to use the pipes to move all of that unit. He could use this for no actions other than a general advance, and only if all of his Platoon was in a fairly tight radius. Equally I would say that this is not something he would be able to switch on and off. Rather like the old "It's a Knockout" Joker it should only be used once, i.e. for the main attack. Again, with Ghurka's these would have the bonuses of being elite troops (a bit like the aggressive troop bonuses that the White Russian Officer Regiments get in TOW) but they would lack the co-ordinating benefit that musical accompaniment brings. As such they would only move en masse when their Platoon card was played, and not on any Big Man card. I like the idea of Nick's comments being well researched. He probably got that quite from this week's copy of The Victor in which his latest fish supper was wrapped! Rich --- mikeqchromeuk@... wrote: > Lards
I tend to agree with Dazza, getting into national
characteristics is a
minefield. We can find similar descriptions for
other troops eg Ghurka's who
didn't need pipes for the bad guys to be panicking!
Nick's well researched
descriptions are classic descriptions of aggressive
troops going into action,
so aggressive troops bonus would seem correct.
Mick
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Colours, Pipes, Drums, Whistles?and Bugles were all about command
and control. The introduction of radio nets improved the battalion/company
co-ordination but not the Platoon/section situation.
The
use of musical instruments by the British is symptomatic of their Regimental
structure, platoons from different regiments would probably want to fight each
other rather than co-ordinate an attack against the enemy.
The
German army was used to forming ad hoc fighting groups from all arms that fought
as a co-coordinated unit without the need of the dreaded MkVI alpine horn or
it's paratroop equivalent the airborne airhorn, incidentally the tactical symbol
for this elite support platoon is often confused with the Army Post
Office.
As to
the Gurkha's, the thing that scared the shit out of their opponents was that at
night you couldn't hear them coming and when you could see them?they all
seemed intent on cutting your head off with a large knife.
Assuming our rules reflect the various command and
control?characteristics of the different nationalities it seems appropriate
to include the factors that contributed to them.
?
Alan?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
However
getting into national characteristics is what
the rules are about.? We
use a number of factors to
differentiate each nation, giving certain
bonuses,
using different numbers of Big Men to reflect the
effectiveness
of their command and control.? Indeed
certain cards are unique to
specific nationalities, so
why come to a sudden stop when we come to the
pipes.?
These Scots troops will already have better factors
as
they are good troops, but I still feel that the pipes
should receive
some benefit on the tabletop.? Indeed
if you show me another musical
instrument that was
used in a similar fashion then I'll apply it to
that
as well.? In fact on D-Day there were plenty of
officers who
took hunting horns along, not just for
some show of bravado, but because it
was an effective
way of communication.? Major Howard at Pegasus
bridge
being a classic example.?
I am less bothered about the
pluses in melee than I am
about the co-ordination effect, all that will do
is in
lessen the chance of the attack bogging down by
allowing an
officer who is leading an attack by his
Platoon to use the pipes to move
all of that? unit.
He could use this for no actions other than a
general
advance, and only if all of his Platoon was in a
fairly tight
radius.? Equally I would say that this is
not something he would be
able to switch on and off.
Rather like the old "It's a Knockout" Joker it
should
only be used once, i.e. for the main attack.???
Again, with Ghurka's these would have the bonuses of
being elite
troops (a bit like the aggressive troop
bonuses that the White Russian
Officer Regiments get
in TOW) but they would lack the co-ordinating
benefit
that musical accompaniment brings. As such they would
only move
en masse when their Platoon card was played,
and not on any Big Man
card.??
I like the idea of Nick's comments being
well
researched.? He probably got that quite from this
week's copy
of The Victor in which his latest fish
supper was wrapped!??
Rich
--- mikeqchromeuk@... wrote: > Lards
>
> I tend to agree with Dazza, getting into national
>
characteristics is a
> minefield. We can find similar descriptions
for
> other troops eg Ghurka's who
> didn't need pipes for the
bad guys to be panicking!
> Nick's well researched
> descriptions
are classic descriptions of aggressive
> troops going into action,
> so aggressive troops bonus would seem correct.
> Mick
>
>?
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Blimus! At last. Someone who does not display any sign of being a cretin. Senility perhaps...... Cheers Rich --- Alan Reynolds <gfy07@...> wrote: > Colours, Pipes, Drums, Whistles and Bugles were all about command and
control. The introduction of radio nets improved the
battalion/company
co-ordination but not the Platoon/section situation.
The use of musical instruments by the British is
symptomatic of their
Regimental structure, platoons from different
regiments would probably want
to fight each other rather than co-ordinate an
attack against the enemy.
The German army was used to forming ad hoc fighting
groups from all arms
that fought as a co-coordinated unit without the
need of the dreaded MkVI
alpine horn or it's paratroop equivalent the
airborne airhorn, incidentally
the tactical symbol for this elite support platoon
is often confused with
the Army Post Office.
As to the Gurkha's, the thing that scared the shit
out of their opponents
was that at night you couldn't hear them coming and
when you could see them
they all seemed intent on cutting your head off with
a large knife.
Assuming our rules reflect the various command and
control characteristics
of the different nationalities it seems appropriate
to include the factors
that contributed to them.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Clarke
[mailto:richardclarkerli@...]
Sent: 11 April 2003 11:01
To: Toofatlardies@...
Subject: Re: [Toofatlardies] Re: The skirl of the
pipes
However getting into national characteristics is
what
the rules are about. We use a number of factors
to
differentiate each nation, giving certain bonuses,
using different numbers of Big Men to reflect the
effectiveness of their command and control.
Indeed
certain cards are unique to specific
nationalities, so
why come to a sudden stop when we come to the
pipes.
These Scots troops will already have better
factors as
they are good troops, but I still feel that the
pipes
should receive some benefit on the tabletop.
Indeed
if you show me another musical instrument that was
used in a similar fashion then I'll apply it to
that
as well. In fact on D-Day there were plenty of
officers who took hunting horns along, not just
for
some show of bravado, but because it was an
effective
way of communication. Major Howard at Pegasus
bridge
being a classic example.
I am less bothered about the pluses in melee than
I am
about the co-ordination effect, all that will do
is in
lessen the chance of the attack bogging down by
allowing an officer who is leading an attack by
his
Platoon to use the pipes to move all of that
unit.
He could use this for no actions other than a
general
advance, and only if all of his Platoon was in a
fairly tight radius. Equally I would say that
this is
not something he would be able to switch on and
off.
Rather like the old "It's a Knockout" Joker it
should
only be used once, i.e. for the main attack.
Again, with Ghurka's these would have the bonuses
of
being elite troops (a bit like the aggressive
troop
bonuses that the White Russian Officer Regiments
get
in TOW) but they would lack the co-ordinating
benefit
that musical accompaniment brings. As such they
would
only move en masse when their Platoon card was
played,
and not on any Big Man card.
I like the idea of Nick's comments being well
researched. He probably got that quite from this
week's copy of The Victor in which his latest fish
supper was wrapped!
Rich
--- mikeqchromeuk@... wrote: > Lards
>
> I tend to agree with Dazza, getting into
national
> characteristics is a
> minefield. We can find similar descriptions for
> other troops eg Ghurka's who
> didn't need pipes for the bad guys to be
panicking!
> Nick's well researched
> descriptions are classic descriptions of
aggressive
> troops going into action,
> so aggressive troops bonus would seem correct.
> Mick
>
>
__________________________________________________
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For a better Internet experience
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Terms of Service.
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|
"Donald was ordered to play "Pibroch o' Donald Dubh" which luckily
the Black Watch recognized."
?
Who the hell else would have been playing the bagpipes? or were the Germans
using bagpipers at this time!?
?
Of course it may be that?Donald such a piss poor piper that usually it
just sounded like cats being strangled and this was the only "tune" he could
manage to play that would be recognised as piping.
?
?
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 9:32
PM
Subject: Re: [Toofatlardies] Re: The
skirl of the pipes
Forgive this long piece, but as the wife is out tonight, I've
been looking online at bagpipes in combat (and will move on to the more
interesting websites that Noddy told me about later). Most of what I found was
complete rubbish - and so is this - but it shows that choice of tune should
have an important effect....
(I love the bit about the guy who "died but was still playing"...reminds me
of Mad Mick, the salesman with the boob-job wife whose friend died twice
playing American football - remember him?)
?
"Each company was to be played into action by its piper. At El Alamein the
pipers were given specific tunes to play, usually the company marches. These
varied according to the battalion, from "The Nut Brown Maiden" and "The Black
Bear" through tunes like "The Atholl Highlanders" and "Scotland the Brave" to
"Lord Alexander Kennedy," a formidably difficult tune to play at regulation
marching speed, and difficult for a novice to play at all.
The battle
began at twenty to ten - 2140 in army terms - on October 23, 1942. It opened
with an intense artillery bombardment from more than 800 guns. Twenty minutes
later the assaulting infantry crossed the Start Line.
The enemy reacted
swiftly, initially with intense artillery defensive fire and as the Infantry
approaced their objectives, with heavy and accurate machine gun fire. All
accounts describe how the pipers strode forward, apparently unconcerned,
through the dust raised by the bursting enemy shells. An officer of the 1st
Black Watch recalled, "The few pipers we had were playing their companies
forward all the time. I had the greatest difficulty in preventing the Pipe
Corporal from walking into the anti-personnel trip wires which you could
generally see in the moonlight." A 5th Black Watch officer wrote, "The bit I
left out was about the company pipers who played us across No Man's Land. They
were very good, quite oblivious of the hell going on around them." The 5th
Seaforth was one of the two battalions securing the Start Line. One officer
wrote, "Then we saw a sight that will live forever in our memories. Line upon
line of steel helmeted figures with rifles at the 'High Port', bayonets
catching the moonlight and over all the wailing of the pipes." Another 5th
Seaforth account relates how the pipers played "Highland Laddie" as the
battalion attacked later in the night and how "we were gripped with an
indefinable pride in our division."
The 5th Camerons' task was to secure
Inverness so that 7th Black Watch could pass through. The Camerons advanced
with the pipers playing in the lead. One company commander recalls how his
company piper, Donald Macpherson from Broadford, Isle of Skye, had been
ordered to play "The Inverness Gathering" during the advance. A good tune,
maybe, but not particularly inspiring, so Donald soon broke into "The Cameron
Men," which saw the company on to their objective. The 7th Black Watch then
appeared through the dusty moonlight. It was clear that, in the regimental
tradition, the Black Watch blood was up from their battle cries and shouted
slogans. To ensure that the Camerons were not mistaken for Germans, Donald was
ordered to play "Pibroch o' Donald Dubh" which luckily the Black Watch
recognized. The 7th Argylls' history, written by Capt. Iain C. Cameron of
Islay, tells how "Paisley" was mopped up with the piper playing the regimental
charge "Monymusk", while "A" company piper played "Blue Bonnets" during the
advance.
Inevitably there were casualties among the pipers. The 5th Black
Watch history tells how "A" company approached their objective, "Montrose",
their piper, Duncan MacIntyre, playing in their centre. Suddenly he was hit,
but carried on playing, breaking into the regimental march, "Highland Laddie"
as the assault went in. He was hit again and died, still playing. The next
morning Duncan was found with his pipes still under his arm, his fingers on
the chanter".
Nicked from:
?
therugdoctor2003 wrote:
?Being a rabid Anglo-Saxon, I think you're
overdoing the effect here.
With only a musket in hand, I can
perceive the morale impact. With
automatic weapons, I'm not so
sure.
And imagine how hard it is to hear "flower of Scotland" in the
middle
of an artillery barrage..? The English fans manage
to drown out every
visiting team's national anthem by simple
whistles.
So, what about a pipes bonus card, whereby all sections within a
radius of the piper can move. Same as a German blitzkreig card,
i.e.
they can't fire or spot, just go forward.
In terms of melee bonus, I would say that the Scots should be
classed
as "agressive", as would other shock troops, as once in
hand to hand
I'm not sure how much effect the pipes themselves
would have. Perhaps
Germans of average and below fighting
ability should have a
supression point inflicted if within a
certain radius of the pipes?
Daz
?
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
?
?
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Haven't you heard "Deutschland Deutschland Uberalles" on the bagpipes?
And hopefully you never will.
?
Were
the peeps as effective later in the war as many replacements to Scottish units
were not Scottish - my father-in-law for example, a Yorkshireman. I will ask his
opinion next time I speak to him but as he has always been completely tone deaf
it probably made no difference one way or the other. In fact the only time he
gets excited in his reminisces is when recounting the number of bottles of
Calvados that they managed to liberate in Normandy. So how about bonuses for
troops attacking/defending distilleries.
?
T
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
"Donald was ordered to play "Pibroch o' Donald Dubh" which
luckily the Black Watch recognized."
?
Who the hell else would have been playing the bagpipes? or were the
Germans using bagpipers at this time!?
?
Of course it may be that?Donald such a piss poor piper that usually
it just sounded like cats being strangled and this was the only "tune" he
could manage to play that would be recognised as piping.
?
?
?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 9:32
PM
Subject: Re: [Toofatlardies] Re: The
skirl of the pipes
Forgive this long piece, but as the wife is out tonight, I've
been looking online at bagpipes in combat (and will move on to the more
interesting websites that Noddy told me about later). Most of what I found
was complete rubbish - and so is this - but it shows that choice of tune
should have an important effect....
(I love the bit about the guy who "died but was still playing"...reminds
me of Mad Mick, the salesman with the boob-job wife whose friend died twice
playing American football - remember him?)
?
"Each company was to be played into action by its piper. At El Alamein
the pipers were given specific tunes to play, usually the company marches.
These varied according to the battalion, from "The Nut Brown Maiden" and
"The Black Bear" through tunes like "The Atholl Highlanders" and "Scotland
the Brave" to "Lord Alexander Kennedy," a formidably difficult tune to play
at regulation marching speed, and difficult for a novice to play at all.
The battle began at twenty to ten - 2140 in army terms - on October 23,
1942. It opened with an intense artillery bombardment from more than 800
guns. Twenty minutes later the assaulting infantry crossed the Start Line.
The enemy reacted swiftly, initially with intense artillery defensive
fire and as the Infantry approaced their objectives, with heavy and accurate
machine gun fire. All accounts describe how the pipers strode forward,
apparently unconcerned, through the dust raised by the bursting enemy
shells. An officer of the 1st Black Watch recalled, "The few pipers we had
were playing their companies forward all the time. I had the greatest
difficulty in preventing the Pipe Corporal from walking into the
anti-personnel trip wires which you could generally see in the moonlight." A
5th Black Watch officer wrote, "The bit I left out was about the company
pipers who played us across No Man's Land. They were very good, quite
oblivious of the hell going on around them." The 5th Seaforth was one of the
two battalions securing the Start Line. One officer wrote, "Then we saw a
sight that will live forever in our memories. Line upon line of steel
helmeted figures with rifles at the 'High Port', bayonets catching the
moonlight and over all the wailing of the pipes." Another 5th Seaforth
account relates how the pipers played "Highland Laddie" as the battalion
attacked later in the night and how "we were gripped with an indefinable
pride in our division."
The 5th Camerons' task was to secure Inverness
so that 7th Black Watch could pass through. The Camerons advanced with the
pipers playing in the lead. One company commander recalls how his company
piper, Donald Macpherson from Broadford, Isle of Skye, had been ordered to
play "The Inverness Gathering" during the advance. A good tune, maybe, but
not particularly inspiring, so Donald soon broke into "The Cameron Men,"
which saw the company on to their objective. The 7th Black Watch then
appeared through the dusty moonlight. It was clear that, in the regimental
tradition, the Black Watch blood was up from their battle cries and shouted
slogans. To ensure that the Camerons were not mistaken for Germans, Donald
was ordered to play "Pibroch o' Donald Dubh" which luckily the Black Watch
recognized. The 7th Argylls' history, written by Capt. Iain C. Cameron of
Islay, tells how "Paisley" was mopped up with the piper playing the
regimental charge "Monymusk", while "A" company piper played "Blue Bonnets"
during the advance.
Inevitably there were casualties among the pipers.
The 5th Black Watch history tells how "A" company approached their
objective, "Montrose", their piper, Duncan MacIntyre, playing in their
centre. Suddenly he was hit, but carried on playing, breaking into the
regimental march, "Highland Laddie" as the assault went in. He was hit again
and died, still playing. The next morning Duncan was found with his pipes
still under his arm, his fingers on the chanter".
Nicked from:
?
therugdoctor2003 wrote:
?Being a rabid Anglo-Saxon, I think
you're overdoing the effect here.
With only a musket in hand,
I can perceive the morale impact. With
automatic weapons, I'm
not so sure.
And imagine how hard it is to hear "flower of Scotland" in the
middle
of an artillery barrage..? The English fans
manage to drown out every
visiting team's national anthem by
simple whistles.
So, what about a pipes bonus card, whereby all sections within
a
radius of the piper can move. Same as a German blitzkreig
card, i.e.
they can't fire or spot, just go forward.
In terms of melee bonus, I would say that the Scots should be
classed
as "agressive", as would other shock troops, as once
in hand to hand
I'm not sure how much effect the pipes
themselves would have. Perhaps
Germans of average and below
fighting ability should have a
supression point inflicted if
within a certain radius of the pipes?
Daz
?
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Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...
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To
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