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More of the same....
Egg
Okay, I've looked at the armour of the Jagdpanzer IV and the Panzer IVH. We seem to be using different data here for armour thickness, so it's probably best for me to explain the method I've used for calculations. Firstly these are all based on frontal armour on the vehicles concerned. What I have done is look at the strongest part of the frontal armour, either hull or turret, taking into account the angle of the armour. What I have not done is taken into account any very specific area of armour, such as the gun mantlet, as this can distort things greatly. In the raw data list that I produced any vehicle with a net armour result, i.e. thickness combined with angle, of 21 to 30mm gets an armour factor of 3. From 31mm to 40mm this is 4, from 41mm to 50mm 5, and so on. Being specific about the two AFVs in question, the Jagdpanzer IV has frontal armour of 60mm at a 50 degree angle. It does have more than this on its gun mantlet, but this would, I feel, not really be representative of the vehicle. Taking into account the angle, the 60mm becomes as effective as 80mm of flat plate at zero degrees, giving it a raw factor of 8 (i.e. within the 71mm to 80mm bracket). As for the Panzer IV H, this has a basic frontal armour of 80mm. This is angled at only 10 degrees, having very little effect when using our trigonometry, but it does have some effect, bringing the net figure to about 82 degrees. This gives it a raw factor of 9 (i.e. within the 81mm to 90mm bracket). Once again we have an issue with where to draw the line, however I have attempted not to make any special cases. Wherever a line is drawn it will piss on someone's chips. What will stand the Jagdpanzer in good stead however, is the fact that as it is a lower profile vehicle it is harder to hit on the "To hit" roll. Cheers Rich PS I am considering building a web site called "Pedants Reunited". Can I put your name down for a full subscription? --- In Toofatlardies@..., jerrynmel@t... wrote: Hi Richthe eyeties yet but some of the German and allied vehicle stats look rathersuspect.Eg Nashorn mounted an 88/L70 Pak 43(as did the Jagdpanther) and shouldhave a similar gun performance to a TigerII.sloping armour, and should therefore have comparable gun performance andmore armour dice. Also all the figures I have show only marginal differencesbetween the 75/L70 on the Panther and the 88/56 on the Tiger I(The pantherwas a little more effective at short range, whilst the tigers heaviershot carried its killing power out further)with rulesets. And if we're trying to haverules which give a historically accuratereproduction then these things are important.they should be.<BR> Frankly my technological limitations mean that I am quite unable to<BR> post this in the Files section, but if anyone fancies doing that I<BR> willSponsor</b></font></td>send them the original list.? We could also do that with the <BR>comprehensive lists for the Western Allies and Germans.? <BR> </tr>cellspacing=0><tr><td alighref="=center><font face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a /S=1705059080:HM/A=1688501/R=0/SIG=11if1rb57/* om/universal/seabiscuit/" target=_top><imgwidth=300 height=250 border=0></a>src=" M=256694.3651271.4917408.1261774/D=egroupmail/S href=">Yahoo!:HM/A=1688501/rand=239780311"></td></tr></table> Terms of Service</a>.</tt> |
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Re: Italian raw data
Egg
Right, I've looked at your individual points. 1. Indeed the Nashorn, Jagdpanther and Tiger II should have the same strike factor, and they do, 15, in the final skewed figures. 2. The Jagdpanzer IV and the Panzer IVH DO have the same strike, 8. I have the armour details at work and will check that on Monday. 3. Agreed regarding the Tiger I and the Panther guns. That was a typo. In fact the final factors are 13 for the Panther and 11 for the Tiger. This is actually one of those annoying situations where the Tiger is very close to being a 12, but one has to draw the line somewhere. Cheers Rich --- In Toofatlardies@..., jerrynmel@t... wrote: Hi Richthe eyeties yet but some of the German and allied vehicle stats look rathersuspect.Eg Nashorn mounted an 88/L70 Pak 43(as did the Jagdpanther) and shouldhave a similar gun performance to a TigerII.sloping armour, and should therefore have comparable gun performance andmore armour dice. Also all the figures I have show only marginal differencesbetween the 75/L70 on the Panther and the 88/56 on the Tiger I(The pantherwas a little more effective at short range, whilst the tigers heaviershot carried its killing power out further)with rulesets. And if we're trying to haverules which give a historically accuratereproduction then these things are important.they should be.<BR> Frankly my technological limitations mean that I am quite unable to<BR> post this in the Files section, but if anyone fancies doing that I<BR> willSponsor</b></font></td>send them the original list.? We could also do that with the <BR>comprehensive lists for the Western Allies and Germans.? <BR> </tr>cellspacing=0><tr><td alighref="=center><font face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a /S=1705059080:HM/A=1688501/R=0/SIG=11if1rb57/* om/universal/seabiscuit/" target=_top><imgwidth=300 height=250 border=0></a>src=" M=256694.3651271.4917408.1261774/D=egroupmail/S href=">Yahoo!:HM/A=1688501/rand=239780311"></td></tr></table> Terms of Service</a>.</tt> |
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Re: Italian raw data
Egg
Thanks for that. Sorry for delay but I have only just got back from the old summer holidays. As mentioned the information I sent was raw, to the extent that I'd done the basic calculations in order to take them away with me, but not done anything else with them. The raw data came from test firing results conducted by the Germans and Allies at the time. I can let you have them if that helps. What I did have to do was also not necessarily take the best performing shell, but the most available for that period of the war. Equally I have also taken into account the extra skirting on a Panzer IV and some other vehicles for armour effect. One issue that needs to be kept in mind is that the calcs are based upon penetration at 200 yards range. Unlike rule sets where we are using one model vehicle to represent a troop of three, and three feet equals a mile, in IABSM we are looking at much shorter ranges than that. IABSM does not have a ground scale as such, however in all my calcs I used 15mm equals 12 foot. This is simply doubling the real 15mm scale, presuming our 15mm soldier is six foot tall, which is a distortion but I had to start somewhere and that mad maths easier. Doubling it simply makes sense from a visual point of view. Once I've unpacked my stuff I shall look up my figures and we can look at specific cases, as it is it's too bloody hot for that at this minute! Cheers Rich --- In Toofatlardies@..., jerrynmel@t... wrote: Hi Richthe eyeties yet but some of the German and allied vehicle stats look rathersuspect.Eg Nashorn mounted an 88/L70 Pak 43(as did the Jagdpanther) and shouldhave a similar gun performance to a TigerII.sloping armour, and should therefore have comparable gun performance andmore armour dice. Also all the figures I have show only marginal differencesbetween the 75/L70 on the Panther and the 88/56 on the Tiger I(The pantherwas a little more effective at short range, whilst the tigers heaviershot carried its killing power out further)with rulesets. And if we're trying to haverules which give a historically accuratereproduction then these things are important.they should be.<BR> Frankly my technological limitations mean that I am quite unable to<BR> post this in the Files section, but if anyone fancies doing that I<BR> willSponsor</b></font></td>send them the original list.? We could also do that with the <BR>comprehensive lists for the Western Allies and Germans.? <BR> </tr>cellspacing=0><tr><td alighref="=center><font face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a /S=1705059080:HM/A=1688501/R=0/SIG=11if1rb57/* om/universal/seabiscuit/" target=_top><imgwidth=300 height=250 border=0></a>src=" M=256694.3651271.4917408.1261774/D=egroupmail/S href=">Yahoo!:HM/A=1688501/rand=239780311"></td></tr></table> Terms of Service</a>.</tt> |
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Re: Armour lists
Even if he had 25 dice I'd still fancy my chances against Sid in a dice
fight!
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Richard Clarke wrote: ?In fact, as per Dave's comments, if anyone out there wants the raw? |
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Re: Italian raw data
Hi Rich
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Thanks for the Armour lists.The dice look do-able. Where did you get the original data from? I haven't looked through the eyeties yet but some of the German and allied vehicle stats look rather suspect.Eg Nashorn mounted an 88/L70 Pak 43(as did the Jagdpanther) and should have a similar gun performance to a TigerII. The Jagdpz.IVL48 had the same gun as a PzIV H but with heavier and sloping armour, and should therefore have comparable gun performance and more armour dice. Also all the figures I have show only marginal differences between the 75/L70 on the Panther and the 88/56 on the Tiger I(The panther was a little more effective at short range, whilst the tigers heavier shot carried its killing power out further) I don't mean to be picky but these are the bits that piss me off with rulesets. And if we're trying to haverules which give a historically accurate reproduction then these things are important. If you like I'll have a look all throgh and send you what I think they should be. All the best Egg -- Original Message -- <tt> The raw data for the Italian armoured vehicles is now available.? <BR> Frankly my technological limitations mean that I am quite unable to <BR> post this in the Files section, but if anyone fancies doing that I <BR> will send them the original list.? We could also do that with the <BR>comprehensive lists for the Western Allies and Germans.? <BR> <BR> Richard<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> </tt> <br> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <table border=0 ellspacing=0 cellpadding=2><tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> <td align=center><font size="-1" color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF> <td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td alig =center><font face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a href=" target=_top><img src="h tp://webevents.yahoo.com/universal/seabiscuit/lrec/noflash.gif" width=300height=250 border=0></a> </td></tr></table></td> </tr> <tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1 src=" :HM/A=1688501/rand=239780311"></td></tr></table> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <br> <tt> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR> Toofatlardies-unsubscribe@...<BR> <BR> </tt> <br> <br> <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href=">Yahoo!Terms of Service</a>.</tt> </br> </body></html> |
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Italian raw data
The raw data for the Italian armoured vehicles is now available.
Frankly my technological limitations mean that I am quite unable to post this in the Files section, but if anyone fancies doing that I will send them the original list. We could also do that with the comprehensive lists for the Western Allies and Germans. Richard |
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And another thing....
Oh yeah, and the strike factor will also take into account better
shells later in the war, and various other additions such as squeeze bore adaptions to weapons, the raw data for the 2 pounder squeeze bore on the Tetrach, for example, gives it a strike of 9 rather than the 7 for the early war weapon. Equally, if anyone enjoys trig and wants the formulae for armour classification and strike factors I can let them have that and they can work out there own stuff, and even let me have a copy if they're doing the Ruskis! Cheers Rich Richard |
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Armour lists
In fact, as per Dave's comments, if anyone out there wants the raw
data for all of the tanks covering the whole war I do have them prepared. The only caveat I would put on this is that these figures will be skewed in the period specific supplements so may well appear different. For example a Jagd Tiger firing at a Mark IV light tank of 1940 vintage would, in the raw data, fire with 25 dice. However these two would not come into contact with each other as they are not within each others' period. So in the late war supplement the Jagd Tiger will probably have a strike of 16 dice, but the armour on a Sherman Jumbo (which is 16 on the raw table) will also be reduced to something like 11. This is yet to be finalised, but hopefully that makes sense. I have not done any for the Russians or Japanese yet. Cheers Richard |
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Re: Aint Been Shot Rules
Dave
Glad you liked them. In answer to your queries. No, a section may not use its own dice to remove wounds, this is a function peculiar to a "Big Man". In effect the term "wound" is actually shorthand for something like "negative cohesion points", the more a unit has, the less well it does anything, firing, moving, aiming a crewed weapon etc. This reflects the lack of cohesion in a unit that is left to its own devices and gets a lot of crap thrown at it, it just goes to ground and as our colonial cousins would say "hunkers down". It needs a "Big Man" to come along and roll some dice. This represents him effectively saying, "Pull yourselves together chaps! Right, you, bandage those wounds up, Corporal, clear the blockage on that bren and put down fire into that tree line, you two chaps, stop skulking in that damned hole and smarten yourselves up!". Again the dice roll is shorthand for him taking charge and getting the section into something like fighting order. Spotting IS something that a section can do on its own. And in fact the more of it that it does the better off it should be! Firing at tight groups should have several effects. For a start it should have a very positive impact on the firing dice. The fire chart makes some presumptions, one of which is that what you are firing at is a section in extended order using some basic fieldcraft. If, however, you find the target lumbering along in some huge mass then the umpire should feel free to upragde the effect of firing. For example, were I umpiring and the above situation occurred, I would shift one column to the left, so if you would normally be firing on the "great" effect table at 9" to 18", and this close order column appeared I would immediately upgrade that fire to use the 0-9" column at Great effect. In that situation I would apply the casualties to the groups as a whole, probably applying them evenly throughout the sections, but skewing them to do more to the sections at the front. Certainly a pinned or Suppressed result should apply to all of the sections. I should say, however, that advancing in that formation is unwise! Sorry to hear about your chum who feels the rules are unfair. I always though life was, but no bugger changed it for me! The uncertainty of movement, combined with the Big Men is absolutely key to the rules in their attempt to look like warfare rather than an alternative to a game of Risk. However, some will love it, others will hate it. I am glad you feel they are achieving their goal in doing the former. My fellow Lardy and co-author Nick Skinner utilised all of his Special Forces experience in the Dagenham Girl Pipers to bring us up to speed on certain technical areas. I hope to have two more supplements out in August. The Desert War is causing me some problems, but I am persevering, however the Finland and Norway supplement will be done, as will D-Day to the Arnhem. Following thet I am determined to finish the Desert War, which will probably also cover Crete 9and Greece?). Russia is well down the list, I'm afraid, as I known little about the conflict. I shall keep everyone informed through this list. Cheers Richard --- In Toofatlardies@..., "britcrusader83" <britcrusader83@y...> wrote: Thanks for the rules and supplements, especially the late war stuffpissed off when his platoon does nothing, and feels that the rules areus we are very impressed, especially with the way the games flow, andas you mentioned the firing calcs are very simple. Makes a changefrom some of the crap weve waided thru.the casualties be spread between all of them or can a section besingled out, if so does any pinned or supressed result apply to everyoneone or just the ones hit?a game to come to the real thing! A good training exercise fortroops leaders. |
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Aint Been Shot Rules
Thanks for the rules and supplements, especially the late war stuff
which got us started without buying a whole load of gear. Weve had some great games using the sort of force sizes you suggested, and had some excellent results. I see what you mean't about them not suiting everybody, one of the guys gets really pissed off when his platoon does nothing, and feels that the rules are unfair. I dont think he will ever be converted. For the rest of us we are very impressed, especially with the way the games flow, and as you mentioned the firing calcs are very simple. Makes a change from some of the crap weve waided thru. A couple of questions have come up. Can a unit use some of its own dice to remove wounds, or is it just big men, the same goes for spotting? Also when firing at a tight groups of sections should the casualties be spread between all of them or can a section be singled out, if so does any pinned or supressed result apply to everyone one or just the ones hit? I must say these are a great set of rules, and in my twenty plus years of soldiering I can say that this is as close as I would want a game to come to the real thing! A good training exercise for troops leaders. Keep up the good work. Dave. "Head down an' diggin'" |
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Re: More bloody bagpipes!
Lardy
So desperate was I to help with this that I searched on the net.
The "Penhaolonga Piper" (actually Penhalonga)performed by MacKenzie Pipes and Strings is available from Amazon - try this url: On searching for Umtaili (actually Umtali) I came across this link (). It is an account of a police patrol, which I think must be 19th Century going by the text and not bothering to follow it up. It is interesting though, and may be worth searching further in case we come across the incident report where two Mashona tribesmen were killed by a haggis. But of Richard's amazing bagpiper I could find no hard evidence. --- In Toofatlardies@..., "Richard Clarke" <richardclarkerli@y...> wrote: Hoots!the conversation got onto bagpipes (okay, lots of beers). They told mehighlands near Umtaili, on the border with Mozambique. One night the terrsfamous for giving your bag a squeeze every evening cannot be easy! |
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Re: More bloody bagpipes!
Lardy
I think WRG may have something you can use. Failing that try the
chemist. The Penhaolonga Piper sounds like an aeroplane. Can I borrow the CD - my daughter needs to take a song of her choice into her dance class? Maybe you could help with the choreography. Next time your inlaws are down remind me visit mine. --- In Toofatlardies@..., "Richard Clarke" <richardclarkerli@y...> wrote: Hoots!the conversation got onto bagpipes (okay, lots of beers). They told mehighlands near Umtaili, on the border with Mozambique. One night the terrsfamous for giving your bag a squeeze every evening cannot be easy! |
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More bloody bagpipes!
Hoots!
Had some colonials around at the weekend for a few beers, somehow the conversation got onto bagpipes (okay, lots of beers). They told me the story of the Penhaolonga Piper in the Rhodesian Bush War. Late 1970s, this Scots emigre lived and farmed up in the eastern highlands near Umtaili, on the border with Mozambique. One night the terrs turned up, razzed his place with RPGs and AKs. He fired back with his FN but ran out of ammo. So, being a mad Jock he whips out the pipes and sets to work, the terrs stop firing and gap it. Even got the CD with the song about him on it, some choice lyrics are show below. The pipes would echo in the breeze, Each night he'd give his bag a squeeze Followed by, in a dreadful Scots accent The villeins didnae wanna fight the skirlin' devils of the night The fled in one big yellow streak a'runnin doon tae Mozambique I guess being imortalised in this way has its drawbacks, being famous for giving your bag a squeeze every evening cannot be easy! Can someone suggest rules for this scenario? Rich |
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More bloody bagpipes!
Hoots!
Had some colonials around at the weekend for a few beers, somehow the conversation got onto bagpipes (okay, lots of beers). They told me the story of the Penhaolonga Piper in the Rhodesian Bush War. Late 1970s, this Scots emigre lived and farmed up in the eastern highlands near Umtaili, on the border with Mozambique. One night the terrs turned up, razzed his place with RPGs and AKs. He fired back with his FN but ran out of ammo. So, being a mad Jock he whips out the pipes and sets to work, the terrs stop firing and gap it. Even got the CD with the song about him on it, some choice lyrics are show below. The pipes would echo in the breeze, Each night he'd give his bag a squeeze Followed by, in a dreadful Scots accent The villeins didnae wanna fight the skirlin' devils of the night The fled in one big yellow streak a'runnin doon tae Mozambique I guess being imortalised in this way has its drawbacks, being famous for giving your bag a squeeze every evening cannot be easy! Can someone suggest rules for this scenario? Rich |
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Re: And for my next trick....
Aynsley,
I quite like General Quarters. These are essentially a campaign set of rules for WWII, with a very simplified combat system. There is also a ?WWI supplement which also adds new rules for WWII. If I can find them (its about 5 years since I last used them) I will dig them out and bring them in next week. Mick Quantachrome UK Ltd Pale Lane, Hartley Wintney, Hook RG27 8DH tel: ?(44) 01252 819 719, fax: 01252 819 901 Registered in the UK No. 3827196 Registered Office: 118 Oxford Road, Reading RG1 7NG IMPORTANT NOTICE This email is confidential, may be legally privileged and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please, delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender. |
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Re: Sonmou
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýSonmou has been, in my view, a good, old fashioned fun
campaign.? As everyone?already?knows, I have no bloody idea what
on earth I am doing in almost every game I play, and despite thinking up ways to
get round the law all day long and recalling arcane bits of case-law to support
my arguments in court, I have never yet been able to remember any part of any
set of rules I have ever read for more than a nano-second.? So it's been
great to know that I have not even had to pretend to bother learning any rules
at all in the campaign and have just been able to move the units according to a
map and using the Wehrmacht tactical notes which Aynsley dug out from the
website - with, some would say, the usual chaotic results!?
?
I guess that makes the campaign for me more of a Kriegspiel
experience, but as I can't stand wargames reading rules, that suits me
fine.? What I hate is when in DBM or whatever someone comes out with, "you
can't do that".? So much better to be told that "you tried to do that
but?there's a bridge down and HQ says you'll have to try something
else".? A cosmetic difference perhaps, but to a player in the campaign, it
really helped make the campaign come to life.
?
Sid
?
?
Original Message -----
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Re: Sonmou
Oh gosh, I'm all a'flutter thanks to you kind words Mr Skinner. Were
you not such a pillock they would have some value. Seriously folks, "And this is me", as Mike Yarwood used to say, I am not sure that the Sonmou campaign is an issue for this list, although I cannot really say it ain't. However, the rules that I used for running the campaign are already with Mr D Macfarlane Esq. in an article headed "A Gloucestershire Blitzkrieg". Actually the rules have been great to use, for the players they look bloody complex and all encompassing, for the umpire it's nowt more than four or five pages of bullshit on A4. If anyone who is not part of the play test group, but who has coughed up for the rules wants the campaign stuff then let me know, and I'll email it to you (no charge, naturally!). In relation to the other issue, ie est Aubergine in this situation, the Big Man issue is perfectly illustrated by your comment. In reality he would be a John Wayne figure, and in fact he is just that. This is the man who animates the troops around him; this is the Coq Sportif personified; this is (in his small way) an hero! To me, that's what these rules are about. And frankly folks, if Fat Lad can become a hero there's hope for us all! --- In Toofatlardies@..., "Lardy" <nick.skinner@w...> wrote: Richard,dynamics have worked really well on the table. Together, the campaign anda very realistic simulation. Clearly, the efforts of Sgt Aubergineare also a key contribution. |
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Sonmou
Lardy
Richard,
The current IABSM campaign around Sonmou is drawing regretably to a close. It's been an excellent mechanism to play and the rule dynamics have worked really well on the table. Together, the campaign and tabletop rules have combined to provide what I feel (so far) to be a very realistic simulation. Clearly, the efforts of Sgt Aubergine are also a key contribution. A Campaign supplement to IABSM would be a good idea - do you plan such a release? |
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