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Re: SUCCESS! The "sick" 475A is now the "fixed" 475A!

 

Hi Jeff,
I'm glad you were able to get the 475A working.
Just to let you know...When you change the subject line the groups.io system starts a new thread that is separate from your previous postings on the subject. If you were to add the success message as a reply to your original discussion then all the information will be kept in the same thread. This is especially useful when someone finds your thread in the archives because they will be able to easily follow your information from start to conclusion.
Congratulations,
Tom


Re: 7854 - No RO in SCOPE + WF modulates RO in STORED

 

...and sorry for another post but I forgot to mention that the AQR function does not work at this point - it always results in an error. I indeed wanted to use AQR to get nice results fro my modded 7T11 :-(. I believe this is a consequence of the readout switching being faulty and there being no readout in SCOPE mode.
Best - Ram


Re: 7854 - No RO in SCOPE + WF modulates RO in STORED

 

Let me clarify a couple of points that were probably vague in the original post. The observed problem with the readouts appeared with the 7b92/7a24 plugins and with the 7s11/7t11mod used *separately* (i.e., only 2 plugins at a time). I did this just to be sure the readout issue is not because of the plugin. I also tried one plugin at a time to see what happens to the readout and I can see, e.g., that with the 7b92a for example, when I merely select the slot containing the plugin, the readout gets "modulated" by the plugin waveform. The same thing happens no matter which of the 4 plugins I use. So it's not to do with the plugin. The fact is that the waveform is finding its way into the readout signal which seems to indicate that the horizontal channel switching is where the issue resides. Does the problem and my reasoning sound clearer now?
Best - Ram


Re: 7854 - No RO in SCOPE + WF modulates RO in STORED

 

Hi Ram,

Just to be sure that it's not related to the 7B92/7854 combination I tried this. Is fine. (There is another issue mentioned in the operators guide.)
At 100 kHz I also get several more or less random dots at the curve in stead of a solid curve. The curve gets filled up in the stored waveform. IIRC it's because of the sampling method used at the lower 7T11 ranges.
You probably found already that you can only stop AQR using the STOP key and then clear the error by pressing another valid key.

Albert


Re: 7854 - No RO in SCOPE + WF modulates RO in STORED

 

Yes, thank you David. I did use your excellent instructions to perform the board-level surgery though for the blanking board itself I used a general purpose PCB. However my post is not about the 7T11 conversion, it's an unrelated problem.


Re: 7854 - No RO in SCOPE + WF modulates RO in STORED

 

This has been done before (by me) <>

David

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ram
Sent: 30 November 2020 08:37
To: [email protected]
Subject: [TekScopes] 7854 - No RO in SCOPE + WF modulates RO in STORED

Hi folks,
I was working on a 7T11 --> 7T11A mod for my recently acquired 7854. Got some intelligible traces @ 100kHz (albeit dotty) on the 7854 in SCOPE mode. However after trying these and a 7A24/7b92 combo I seem to have a problem with the horizontal switching circuits as apparent from this:
(a) There is no readout in SCOPE mode at all though waveforms show up fairly clean
(b) If I press the STORE button soon after startup (startup tests pass) I see nice readouts though the expected horizontal default trace appears after some silence and some glitches
(c) If in STORE mode I choose a vert channel which has a plug-in, the vertical waveform seems to "modulate" the readout and garbles it up - the modulation is indeed proportional to the signal level.
(d) If in STORE mode I choose a horiz channel which has a plugin a similar thing happens - the readout gets "modulated" horizontally and a series of dancing horizontal lines appears where the readout was

I seem to think this is a problem with whatever circuitry does the horizontal channel selection (like the U800 in the 24xx). Looking through the 7854 schematics I am wondering if this means there is a problem with the signal RO-WFMX at J12, diagram 10, which appears from U1720 (LF13333). I see older threads here which refer this chip going bad.

Any other candidates to suspect based on the observations above? Further, how is it that the default stored readout appears clean? Does it not pass through LF13333?
Any inputs or hypotheses gratefully accepted.
Thanks! - Ram


Re: Resistor in series

 

Manahem,

As it happens I have chosen to leave the existing carbon comp resistors in place, which replacing the failed transistors and diodes. After replacing the failed transistors and diodes the scope seems to be working perfectly (at least with regard to the beam intensity and blanking).

I have replacement NOS carbon comp resistors on order, but I'm not going to use them unless the Z-axis amplifier starts acting up again. I will look into getting new production parts as you suggested, and look for ceramics, as I would like to have something in my stock other than just metal and carbon film resistors.

-- Jeff Dutky


Re: Resistor in series

 

Jeff
Choosing a substitute resistor type, as others mentioned here, is not a simple matter.
You really need to know what its function is in the circuit.

Carbon Comp resistors are the only absolutely suitable choice, if the circuit has current surges.
Film resistors of all types simply cannot handle the range of current surges.

If you really cannot find a Carbon Comp (and the circuit requires it), then a Ceramic MAY be a good substitute, and if you are still really stuck, then the next possible substitute is a Metal Oxide type. BUT, Metal Oxide starts to introduce inductance into the circuit.

Carbon Comps also have no inductance (inductance kills - as in obliterates - performance in RF circuits).

Now, Ceramics come in two types - Inductive, and non-Inductive. Again, For an RF circuit, ONLY a NON-Inductive is suitable.

Notice that I haven't even mentioned film resistors.
On these vintage machines, you really want to investigate using Carbon Comp or Ceramics first, to solve the problems, without introducing new problems!

Your choice was correct to use Carbon Comps, but I would recommend buying new production pieces from Mouser or Digikey. Highly unlikely that you'll find significant deviations due to moisture in cracks, or whatever..

Menahem Yachad
CondorAudio


7854 - No RO in SCOPE + WF modulates RO in STORED

 

Hi folks,
I was working on a 7T11 --> 7T11A mod for my recently acquired 7854. Got some intelligible traces @ 100kHz (albeit dotty) on the 7854 in SCOPE mode. However after trying these and a 7A24/7b92 combo I seem to have a problem with the horizontal switching circuits as apparent from this:
(a) There is no readout in SCOPE mode at all though waveforms show up fairly clean
(b) If I press the STORE button soon after startup (startup tests pass) I see nice readouts though the expected horizontal default trace appears after some silence and some glitches
(c) If in STORE mode I choose a vert channel which has a plug-in, the vertical waveform seems to "modulate" the readout and garbles it up - the modulation is indeed proportional to the signal level.
(d) If in STORE mode I choose a horiz channel which has a plugin a similar thing happens - the readout gets "modulated" horizontally and a series of dancing horizontal lines appears where the readout was

I seem to think this is a problem with whatever circuitry does the horizontal channel selection (like the U800 in the 24xx). Looking through the 7854 schematics I am wondering if this means there is a problem with the signal RO-WFMX at J12, diagram 10, which appears from U1720 (LF13333). I see older threads here which refer this chip going bad.

Any other candidates to suspect based on the observations above? Further, how is it that the default stored readout appears clean? Does it not pass through LF13333?
Any inputs or hypotheses gratefully accepted.
Thanks! - Ram


Re: Performance Check on a 2215A

 

John,

That was exactly the adjustment I was planning to do, but the admonition in the introduction to the adjustment procedure cowed me. I had first just read through the vertical adjustment procedure, and it did not appear to require special equipment, and sounded like it could be done on its own.

Thank you for justifying my desire for slack.

-- Jeff Dutky


Re: Performance Check on a 2215A

 

Jeff,
While you are waiting to accumulate enough equipment for the performance check, you could just do the "attenuator step balance" adjustment to minimize the trace shift at 2mV/div. It shouldn't have much impact on gain or transient response. (You should let the scope warm up for 20 minutes or so before the adjustment.)
Older scopes had a front panel trimpot for this, so it was essentially a user adjustment.

--John Gord

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 10:42 PM, Jeff Dutky wrote:


Among my menagerie is a recently acquired 2215A which I had to perform minor
repair work on, but otherwise seems to be in fine condition. I would like to
do some adjustment on channel 1, whose trace jumps up two divisions when
switching from 5 mV/div to 2 mV/div, but the service manual seems to indicate
that I should first do the performance check before doing the adjustments. The
problem, of course, is that I don't have most of the equipment specified for
the performance check. Specifically I don't have a calibration generator,
leveled sine wave generator, or a time mark generator. Looking online it
appears that acquiring any of those items will set me back hundreds, if not
thousands, of dollars.

I have a cheap 3 MHz function generator (analog, uncalibrated), a Leo Bodnar
fast pulse generator, a DM501, a DC503, a couple of fairly nice handheld
multi-meters (an Extech 22-816 and a Tek DMM916), a nice bench power supply
with current and voltage limits, and a passel of assorted components,
including crystal oscillators of various frequencies up to at least 50 MHz. Is
there some way that I can rig up something that would get me through the
performance test with some reasonable level of confidence?

I'm willing to splash out for one of the relatively inexpensive Chinese
digital signal gens (e.g. the KKmoon/Koolertron/whatever FY6900), but that's
about the limit of my budget. I've also seen shockingly cheap RF signal
generators that go way higher than anything I would need, and wondered if that
might be useful for testing my oscilloscopes (if not for actual calibration).

So far I have been relying on comparative measurements between all my
instruments of unknown accuracy. My feeling is that they all seem to be in
good shape, since their readings all agree to within a few percent. My feeling
is that I should be able to use a combination of multi-meters, counter timers,
and known voltage sources (e.g. the bench power supply/voltage regulators,
fresh batteries, etc.) to establish the accuracy of one or more instruments,
and then work outward from that stable spot, but I'm not entirely confident in
my own reasoning.

-- Jeff Dutky


Re: Tek 24xx calibration -- How to store constants before finishing the entire procedure

 

thanks chuck

sorry for the off-topic

.... unfortunately I have some doubts .... the manual is poor in the calibration section

regards
simon


Performance Check on a 2215A

 

Among my menagerie is a recently acquired 2215A which I had to perform minor repair work on, but otherwise seems to be in fine condition. I would like to do some adjustment on channel 1, whose trace jumps up two divisions when switching from 5 mV/div to 2 mV/div, but the service manual seems to indicate that I should first do the performance check before doing the adjustments. The problem, of course, is that I don't have most of the equipment specified for the performance check. Specifically I don't have a calibration generator, leveled sine wave generator, or a time mark generator. Looking online it appears that acquiring any of those items will set me back hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars.

I have a cheap 3 MHz function generator (analog, uncalibrated), a Leo Bodnar fast pulse generator, a DM501, a DC503, a couple of fairly nice handheld multi-meters (an Extech 22-816 and a Tek DMM916), a nice bench power supply with current and voltage limits, and a passel of assorted components, including crystal oscillators of various frequencies up to at least 50 MHz. Is there some way that I can rig up something that would get me through the performance test with some reasonable level of confidence?

I'm willing to splash out for one of the relatively inexpensive Chinese digital signal gens (e.g. the KKmoon/Koolertron/whatever FY6900), but that's about the limit of my budget. I've also seen shockingly cheap RF signal generators that go way higher than anything I would need, and wondered if that might be useful for testing my oscilloscopes (if not for actual calibration).

So far I have been relying on comparative measurements between all my instruments of unknown accuracy. My feeling is that they all seem to be in good shape, since their readings all agree to within a few percent. My feeling is that I should be able to use a combination of multi-meters, counter timers, and known voltage sources (e.g. the bench power supply/voltage regulators, fresh batteries, etc.) to establish the accuracy of one or more instruments, and then work outward from that stable spot, but I'm not entirely confident in my own reasoning.

-- Jeff Dutky


SUCCESS! The "sick" 475A is now the "fixed" 475A!

 

After going over the other elements of the z-axis amp carefully, and not finding any other blown parts, I replaced the blown transistors with parts from stock (and, for Q1358, a part from one of the parts scopes), powered her up and I have a clean trace that responds to the beam intensity control.

Now I can mop up some issues with a 2215A that got a few weeks ago (just so I could play around with a scope that had a dual time base with an ALT horizontal display mode), return to evaluating my dad's 475 and 2213 (there's something screwy about channel 1 on the 2213 which might be fun to investigate), or start work on another scope (another of the "for parts" 475s is probably in good enough condition to warrant significant effort, and I've got a 2236 coming this week which will, if I am lucky, have some interesting disfunction). I've also got a PS502 that blows the mains fuse in my TM503 every time I have it power it up.

I'm having so much fun learning things and fixing things.

Thanks for all the guidance and support, I really appreciate it.

-- Jeff Dutky


Re: 151-0367-00 and 151-0402-00 transistors

 

I have an alternate part number for 151-0367-00. The TI part number is SKA6516. The Freescale number is SPS8811. I have a bunch of the Tek number 151-0367-00. They have all been pulled from one of the old production lines; formed and cut leads, some bent. They appear to have been through some hand selection process for matching. If someone needs a few to try, let me know and I'll send a few.


Re: Tek 24xx calibration -- How to store constants before finishing the entire procedure

Chuck Harris
 

I have never calibrated a TDS series scope, so I have
no idea of what they do.

Usually, the manual will give a pretty good outline of
the rules in the calibration or adjustments section.

-Chuck Harris

Gif Sim via groups.io wrote:

chuck also for the tds700 series the same rule applies?
if I start the calibration and I don't choose "run full sequence" but I select "select sequence" but still respect all the steps from 1 to 11 is the calibration valid?
thanks
simon






Re: 475A Z-Axis Amp and Q1338 Confusion

Byron Hayes, Jr.
 

Jeff,

The Heathkit Semiconductor Curve Tracer (Model IT-1121) does not have a CRT and works with an oscilloscope having an X-Y function. On eBay there are some "aftermarket" terminals for this unit that make some connections easier. You will have to watch for it, as I haven't seen any currently on eBay.

Byron, WA6ATN

At 09:38 PM 11/28/2020, Jeff Dutky wrote:
I haven't got either a DMM with the socket and Hfe setting, nor do I have a curve tracer. I'm trying to limit my acquisition of new boat anchors, as I've already filled my work area with 400-series and 2200-series scopes (I started out with a 475 and a 2213 that belonged to my father, then I bought several parts 475s, one of which is a 475A, in order to ensure that I could keep my father's scope running. Then I saw that the 2215 had a neat feature that the 475 lacked, and was pretty cheap. Finally, after losing an auction for a 475A+DMM44 I saw that there was a 2200-series scope, the 2236, with a DMM/Counter-timer built in, and now I am up to my ears in scopes).

I'm a little surprised that I haven't seen an external curve tracer that could be attached to a scope operating in X-Y mode. I know that you can do some kinds of component checks using a scope in X-Y mode, but I haven't gotten around to learning exactly how to do that.

I've been wanting to get a reliable ESR meter, and some of them appear to have component test sockets as well, but the range of choices has been beyond my analysis-paralysis threshold. If someone had a solid recommendation for a reliable, but not too expensive meter with these features, I would be grateful for the suggestion.

-- Jeff Dutky



Re: 475A Z-Axis Amp and Q1338 Confusion

 

On 29 Nov 2020, at 05:38, Jeff Dutky <jeff.dutky@...> wrote:

I'm a little surprised that I haven't seen an external curve tracer that could be attached to a scope operating in X-Y mode. I know that you can do some kinds of component checks using a scope in X-Y mode, but I haven't gotten around to learning exactly how to do that.
Heathkit and EICO made curve tracers designed to attach to a ¡¯scope in X-Y mode. They strike me as tending to be overpriced for what they are.

On eBay, under the listing "Power Transistor Curve Tracer adapter XY Oscilloscopes NPN/PNP Vce=10V¡± is a simple and very inexpensive curve tracer kit. A couple years ago, I bought one and assembled it into a case with a power supply and appropriate switches, etc.

For the price it¡¯s a fine plaything, but in practice it's inadequate for anything except maybe limited verification that a three-legged component might resemble a transistor if used in a circuit.

But that got me interested in the real thing, and I¡¯ve subsequently acquired a Tek 577 (nice, though with some storage mode issues that aren¡¯t critical to my use cases) and a Telequipment CT71 which is very capable. The latter sometimes turn up for comparatively reasonable prices as Telequipment tends to be looked down upon, but their curve tracer is very usable.

I¡¯ve also recently acquired a non-working Tek 571. It¡¯s kind of the red-headed stepchild of the curve tracer world, but I¡¯ve always wanted one (I find anything combining one or more CPUs and analog circuitry to be oddly irresistible) but it has serious issues and is currently undergoing surgery on my bench. If you can find a working/repairable one of those, it¡¯ll probably be cheaper than the usual highly-desirable units. Though it appears mainly designed for university student labs and the like, it should be an excellent ¡ª and very easy to use ¡ª general-purpose semiconductor troubleshooting tool.


Re: 475A Z-Axis Amp and Q1338 Confusion

 

Michael,

I don't think that discussion of curve tracers is in any way hijacking this thread, as my original confusion stemmed directly from my own ignorance on the subject.

While I don't have any plans to acquire a Tek 576 or 577 (as pretty as the 577 is), I have fallen down a bit of a rabbit hole on DIY curve tracers. It looks like there are actually lots of options that don't require purchasing a dedicated unit.

Maybe, when I've gotten the 475A squared away, I will throw together one of the simpler curve tracers, since it looks like it would be both educational, and very useful in further restoration work.

-- Jeff Dutky