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Re: Persuading a 7S12 to play nice with a 7934.

 

The manual I am working off is which lives in the 'smb' folder on Kurt's w140.com website. You are right - Q690 and Q694 are reversed on its diagram 7 and CR692 is in the wrong place. So all references to Q694 in my inital post should read Q690. Sorry.

Agreed, the 1985 manual on the looks correct but I don't appear to have a P600 on my unit (SN in the B14nnnn range).


Re: TEK465 Horizontal trace

 

Wes,

If you're watching this group and thread still, I found another disfunction that was confounding the trace:

The vertical amp input, Q4402, was dead, and caused the vertical plates to be stuck high. So the trace would only show up if BEAM FIND was half pressed.

After pulling the transistor out I found that the passivation in the can was only half filled. So it was just a bad part that must have failed at some point not being sealed.

It also appears at least one tunnel diode is dead. I used some 2N3904s in place of Q4402/Q4412 for testing, and I'm able to get a waveform, but only with the trigger holdoff tuned just right.

I have parts in hand and on the way. I'm going to have fun fixing all the issues this scope has, but it's pretty funny that there's just about nothing on this scope that hasn't suffered a failure in some way. It'll be fun to rehab it to full working condition again. It's going to take a while.

Dave


Re: 485 super weak brightness control

 

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 09:27 AM, Ondrej Pavelka wrote:



Here is a odd thing I observing with B gate. Is this normal? Basically I
expect the pulse to be shortest at 1nS and gradually widen. What happens
here it basically goes in circles instead.
Looking at the width on your picture my B gate pulse width is correct at
1ns, corect at 2 and 5 but at 10ns us again the same length as 1nS and that
can't be right?
In this video I think I know what is happening. You have variable horizontal knob out (time 0:13 in the video). Your 5ns B gate is 300ns wide instead of ~ 130ns Raymond measured so this is supporting the theory of variable time scale. When you switch to 10ns it is the same RC time constant as 5ns (2x is in horizontal amp) but because variable time is disabled for B other than 1/2/5n, B-gate suddenly looks like it became shorter. If you push in the variable time scale knob my guess is you will see 5ns width same as 10ns width, not jumping to a smaller time. I tried it and can replicate what you are seeing with variable time scale set.

I don't think this behavior points to anything wrong.

Ozan


Re: 454 Fireworks Followup

 

Sean,
I would use Mouser or Digikey. I trust both of them. I don't trust E-bay or Amazon for electronic components.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 3/25/2021 12:00 AM, Sean Turner wrote:
Jeff,

Thanks, maybe I'll go with Mouser. I order stuff from them with some regularity, and that's not a horrible price IMO. Amazon is right out...too much counterfeit garbage. Though it might be fun to get some of both and compare their characteristics.

Sean

On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 09:56 PM, Jeff Dutky wrote:

Sean,

Or Amazon:

I'm not sure Amazon is really any more reliable than eBay, but just so you
know your options.

I did find 114 count 2N3442 and 951 count 2N3442G in stock at Mouser, both
available in qty 1 for about $6.75 each, so you have an option of a reputable
source, but it comes with a price (the stuff on Amazon is about $2 each, but
you get what you pay for, maybe)

-- Jeff Dutky



Re: 454 Fireworks Followup

 

Jeff,

Thanks, maybe I'll go with Mouser. I order stuff from them with some regularity, and that's not a horrible price IMO. Amazon is right out...too much counterfeit garbage. Though it might be fun to get some of both and compare their characteristics.

Sean

On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 09:56 PM, Jeff Dutky wrote:


Sean,

Or Amazon:

I'm not sure Amazon is really any more reliable than eBay, but just so you
know your options.

I did find 114 count 2N3442 and 951 count 2N3442G in stock at Mouser, both
available in qty 1 for about $6.75 each, so you have an option of a reputable
source, but it comes with a price (the stuff on Amazon is about $2 each, but
you get what you pay for, maybe)

-- Jeff Dutky


Re: 454 Fireworks Followup

 

Sean,

Or Amazon:

I'm not sure Amazon is really any more reliable than eBay, but just so you know your options.

I did find 114 count 2N3442 and 951 count 2N3442G in stock at Mouser, both available in qty 1 for about $6.75 each, so you have an option of a reputable source, but it comes with a price (the stuff on Amazon is about $2 each, but you get what you pay for, maybe)

-- Jeff Dutky


Re: 454 Fireworks Followup

 

Jeff,

Yes, indeed that is the part number on the transistor I removed.

I'm figuring a plain old 2N3442 that is free of defects (I have curve tracers and the test fixture for this case style) should work fine. I want to give it a try at any rate. Apparently this part is still manufactured by Microchip/Microsemi, but it isn't stocked at the usual suspects and is only available in bulk quantities for absurd prices and long lead time. So my options are someone here or ebay.

Sean

On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 09:01 PM, Jeff Dutky wrote:


Sean,

I've been trying to find what the selection criteria were for Q1197, which is
Tek part number 151-0209-00, if I am not mistaken. The service manual does say
that it is selected from 2N3442, but when I consult the Common Design Parts
Catalog I do not find 151-0209-00 listed under selected transistors. Further,
in the section that discusses (and tries to dissuade engineers from using)
selected parts it sounds like a selected part should have a part number
starting with 153- rather than 151-. It also sounds like there are a
population of 151-****-89 parts that are still considered "selected" in the
sense that while they have failed the selection criteria, they have been
checked to be free of other faults, and so are considered higher quality
parts.

Could it be that Q1197 is from the latter population of selected parts and
that the -89 suffix was not yet in use when the 454 was designed? Maybe any
old 2N3442 would suffice, so long as it was working?

-- Jeff Dutky


Re: 454 Fireworks Followup

 

Sean,

I've been trying to find what the selection criteria were for Q1197, which is Tek part number 151-0209-00, if I am not mistaken. The service manual does say that it is selected from 2N3442, but when I consult the Common Design Parts Catalog I do not find 151-0209-00 listed under selected transistors. Further, in the section that discusses (and tries to dissuade engineers from using) selected parts it sounds like a selected part should have a part number starting with 153- rather than 151-. It also sounds like there are a population of 151-****-89 parts that are still considered "selected" in the sense that while they have failed the selection criteria, they have been checked to be free of other faults, and so are considered higher quality parts.

Could it be that Q1197 is from the latter population of selected parts and that the -89 suffix was not yet in use when the 454 was designed? Maybe any old 2N3442 would suffice, so long as it was working?

-- Jeff Dutky


Re: S-1 transient response problems

 

Thanks :)

While comparing the S-1 to the S-2, I discovered another reason to prefer the diodes I used.. I was swapping cables around and plugged the avalanche pulser (at least 10 volts) into the S-1 without the 10x attenuator! Oh my, I said, and yanked the power lead to the avalanche supply as soon as I saw the trace shoot off the screen...

So I put the attenuator on the CORRECT side of the divider tee and the S-1 still works. I am sure the original diodes would have bit the big one instantly. Also glad I didn't do that to the S-2!


Re: S-1 transient response problems

 

Congratulations on getting it all working, Charles. Another victory for persistence!

-- Cheers,
Tom

--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070

On 3/24/2021 20:42, Charles wrote:
Thanks... but I broke the nylon holder, and those diodes are rather prone to destruction (which is how I got the S-1 in the first place). Also they are REALLY tiny and I just don't have the mechanical skill to work with them - in fact I broke a lead, on the remaining good one of course, just removing them from the holder. I decided that more recent diodes could be substituted, and SOT-23 packages are about as small as I'm comfortable handling... and don't forget that they are available from electronic suppliers like Digikey, instead of (50+ year old) dwindling Tek parts stashes.

Anyhow, I finally found the problem... the push-together connectors carrying the trigger from the sampler board pickoff to the preamp board were just barely mating. So when they parted, the center pin(s) were so close that there was enough capacitative coupling to send a fast pulse to the trigger amp, but way too small for the blowby compensation circuit. Verified with scope. On further investigation, the case is supposed to have four "wiggly" long spring strips to make contact with the ground planes on the outside boards, and presumably to also keep a tiny bit of pressure on the connectors at issue! There were only three, and the missing one was on the side where the problem is. I moved one strip to that slot, reassembled and everything's working fine again :)

p.s. to dan: the notorious R18 (36 ohm) was 37.7 so I left it alone :)




Re: S-1 transient response problems

 

Thanks... but I broke the nylon holder, and those diodes are rather prone to destruction (which is how I got the S-1 in the first place). Also they are REALLY tiny and I just don't have the mechanical skill to work with them - in fact I broke a lead, on the remaining good one of course, just removing them from the holder. I decided that more recent diodes could be substituted, and SOT-23 packages are about as small as I'm comfortable handling... and don't forget that they are available from electronic suppliers like Digikey, instead of (50+ year old) dwindling Tek parts stashes.

Anyhow, I finally found the problem... the push-together connectors carrying the trigger from the sampler board pickoff to the preamp board were just barely mating. So when they parted, the center pin(s) were so close that there was enough capacitative coupling to send a fast pulse to the trigger amp, but way too small for the blowby compensation circuit. Verified with scope. On further investigation, the case is supposed to have four "wiggly" long spring strips to make contact with the ground planes on the outside boards, and presumably to also keep a tiny bit of pressure on the connectors at issue! There were only three, and the missing one was on the side where the problem is. I moved one strip to that slot, reassembled and everything's working fine again :)

p.s. to dan: the notorious R18 (36 ohm) was 37.7 so I left it alone :)


Re: S-1 transient response problems

 

You can find the likely part numbers for the original diodes in the "Tek schottky Diodes memo" in the reference materials files on Tek Wiki.
Specs for many of the part numbers are in section 12 of the Semiconductor common design parts catalog also on tek wiki.
Craig


Re: 2230 PSU Replacement Component Choices

 

On 3/24/2021 5:25 PM, alastair.knights@... wrote:
Hi Bert,

Thanks for supplying your experience. Yes, I may be going overboard, but the long repair stories on the EEV Blog bring out the preventative engineer in me!

The RIFAs capacitors in my input filter already have cracks (are will be replaced), and an open-circuit focus chain resistor was the original fault when I got the scope.
When I replace these resistors I replace the high value ones with two resistors of half the value in series to split the voltage drop.

They seem to last longer that way.


Thanks again,

Alastair




Re: S-1 transient response problems

 

Thanks, Ed & dan. I will check R18 in particular. But I apparently have overthought the problem. It's mechanical, not electrical! I posted three pics in "Sampling with 3S2" (and set the order to most recent first, to save you thumbing through in alphabetical order).

I carefully adjusted the pots (ALL of which interact, what a PITA) as in the manual. Since I don't have a really fast edge, I used my ~600-650 ps pulser edge and set it to display ~750 through the S-1, which should be close to 350 ps risetime. Going back to the 1 MHz square wave, it looks like crap as I initially described. Not only that, suddenly the transient response pot wouldn't do anything either! But flexing the preamp board the right way caused it to pop into flatness (second pic). Now I just have to find the bad solder joint (or carbon comp resistor)...

The slight ripples in the S-2 are probably because I haven't adjusted it either - or possibly from the 114, cables and adapters, and too fast to see on my 60 MHz scope mainframe)... I'd try my delicate S-4 but it has a new hybrid and hasn't been readjusted either! Guess it's time to buy a Leo Bodnar pulser :)


3 photos uploaded #photo-notice

[email protected] Notification
 

The following photos have been uploaded to the Sampling with 3S2 album of the [email protected] group.

By: Charles <charlesmorris800@...>


Re: S-1 transient response problems

 

Hi Charles,

I have had multiple S-1 and S-2 heads with transient responses that could
not be leveled. In all but one case, the problem was caused by R18 that
had drifted high by 100% - 150%. It also caused increased signal noise,
especially with the sampling head case removed. (All my sampling heads
still have original diodes, though.)

I thought I'd mention this, as it is quick and easy to check, and fairly easy to fix.


Good luck,
dan


454 Fireworks Followup

 

Quick update: I was able to remove Q1197 from the +75V regulator circuit quite easily by loosening the power transformer and taking the rear panel off to go in through the fan opening. Threw that bad boy on the 575 and it is definitely shorted!

According to the manual, this is selected from 2N3442. Anyone have a spare one or two of those laying around they would be willing to part with, that are known good, before I take my chances on ebay? Willing to pay a reasonable fee + your cost to mail.

Thanks!

Sean


Re: 485 super weak brightness control

 

I measured A sweep A Gate B sweep B gate

In the long times all the A sweep A gate and B gate are exactly the same
length and correct but there is no B sweep at all.
What is the B sweep voltage level when there is no sweep?


As the things go to the ns range the zeroed B offset starts to show so it's
slightly delayed but more importantly the B sweep at one point doubles on
its amplitude and starts having a flat top (saturation) from then on its
Both A and B sweep are expected to reset to +13V and should go down from that level when gate starts. When you say it doubles does it always start from +13V but end at different voltages (i.e. delta-V is double) or does the top start from a different voltage? Top should be flat if you are looking at sheet <11> (there is inversion if you are looking at A-sweep at the BNC, then bottom should be flat).

I'm wondering if its best to wait for the relays and continue
troubleshooting after that it if there is something we can tackle in the
meantime while I source needed parts
Please see my earlier comments about the relays, did you test them off the board? The relays are supposed to be off until timebase > 200ns, you can pull them off and debug 1ns-100ns range. However, it is up to you if you want take a break and work on something else.

Ozan


Re: Persuading a 7S12 to play nice with a 7934.

 

... or it was wrong in the Rev. 1985 manual? There the schematic says Q694 is NPN while the parts list says PNP. It's long ago that I ran into this. Albert


Re: Persuading a 7S12 to play nice with a 7934.

 

Hi Richard,
W.r.t. to your final question: Which manual are you using? In my paper manual (rev. March 1984) the labels Q690 and Q694 at <7> are wrong (interchanged). The internet pdf (Rev. March 1985) is correct and also shows P600 for interdot enable/disable. Albert