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Re: Tektronix A6901 ground isolation monitor

 

Thank, it looks like it is, i noted it is only 125V so I'm glad I asked because i now see there is a sticker on the psu stating " wired for 115V" ?pfff, just in time ;-)
I have a 115V transformer on my desk for my tubetester, IET DE5000 ect. So problem solved

Fred PA4TIM

Op 14 feb. 2013 om 12:32 heeft Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> het volgende geschreven:

?

Isn't this just a regular nema 5-15?
<>


ST

On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 12:20 PM, Pa4tim <fredschneider@...> wrote:

An other question, the P6046 diff probe amplifier powersupply has that weird old USA type connector ( it is a 230V version) Like on the 547 scope and the sockets in my 515 mobile, tek 130 ect. I thought that was a rather old system but those probes are not that old so it looks like it is still in use. Is there a name for those sockets so I can buy some to make some cables and an fixed socket on my bench ? The probeamps I can plug in my 515 mobile sockets ( not handy because of the distance because I want to use them on other scopes)
. Here you se the psu, there is a big round pin too but that is out of sight,

Fred PA4TIM


Re: Tektronix A6901 ground isolation monitor

Craig Sawyers
 

======================
An other question, the P6046 diff probe amplifier powersupply has that weird old USA type connector ( it is a 230V version) Like on the 547 scope and the sockets in my 515 mobile, tek 130 ect. I thought that was a rather old system but those probes are not that old so it looks like it is still in use. Is there a name for those sockets so I can buy some to make some cables and an fixed socket on my bench ? The probeamps I can plug in my 515 mobile sockets ( not handy because of the distance because I want to use them on other scopes)
. Here you se the psu, there is a big round pin too but that is out of sight,
======================

That is just a regular US mains plug. I cannot find sensibly priced ones in Europe, for example . Cheap in the US, and available everywhere.

Craig


Re: Tek Probe Question

Albert
 

Hi David,

I think you compared with sampling gate time here, not with rise time. The factor for rise time is 0.8 * 0.442, so about 0.35, nearly the same as for Gaussian windows.

Albert

--- In TekScopes@..., David wrote:

For the gaussian response, the bandwidth = 0.339 / rise time which is
usually shorted to 0.35. For a sampling oscilloscope where the
response is decided weird and not gaussian, the bandwidth = 0.442 /
rise time or bandwidth = 0.468 / rise time depending on how it is
calculated.

Flat response DSOs could be anywhere from 0.4 to 0.5 but also display
preshoot and overshoot when the input pulse is too fast. I now
believe that explains the pulse distortion I saw on the Tektronix
MSO5204 that I evaluated.


Re: Tektronix A6901 ground isolation monitor

Stefan Trethan
 

Isn't this just a regular nema 5-15?
<>


ST


On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 12:20 PM, Pa4tim <fredschneider@...> wrote:

An other question, the P6046 diff probe amplifier powersupply has that weird old USA type connector ( it is a 230V version) Like on the 547 scope and the sockets in my 515 mobile, tek 130 ect. I thought that was a rather old system but those probes are not that old so it looks like it is still in use. Is there a name for those sockets so I can buy some to make some cables and an fixed socket on my bench ? The probeamps I can plug in my 515 mobile sockets ( not handy because of the distance because I want to use them on other scopes)
. Here you se the psu, there is a big round pin too but that is out of sight,

Fred PA4TIM


Re: Tektronix A6901 ground isolation monitor

 

I can read, speak and write, English, but i speak and read german too, only a little bit French, followed 1 year spanish in high school but forgot all about it, and no Japanese ;-) so I prefere English. It would be great If you would do that.?
Thanks for the explanation, this makes sense. My cabinet is 9 years old and has autofuses and groundleak breakers on every on of the 10 groups, so I take out the termistor before I test it. I just ordered a cable for the 6901 ( female to male) but I remove the female and put a normal mains-socketbox to it, so I can connect old equipment with a fixes mainslead.

An other question, the P6046 diff probe amplifier powersupply has that weird old USA type connector ( it is a 230V version) Like on the 547 scope and the sockets in my 515 mobile, tek 130 ect. I thought that was a rather old system but those probes are not that old so it looks like it is still in use. Is there a name for those sockets so I can buy some to make some cables and an fixed socket on my bench ? The probeamps I can plug in my 515 mobile sockets ( not handy because of the distance because I want to use them on other scopes)
. Here you se the psu, there is a big round pin too but that is out of sight,

Fred PA4TIM

Op 14 feb. 2013 om 10:47 heeft "Craig Sawyers" <c.sawyers@...> het volgende geschreven:

?

> So if it does not start you should have a ground impedance problem ( or is it not the right test for modern groundfault breaker circuits ( those things in cabinet where your powerlines enter the house) i believe in old houses and some countrys they do not have them)

Correct - it is not compatible with precisely those. In "old" wiring, where there was a simple fuse-box there would be no problem. But in modern cabinets (ie any time in the last 30-odd years), it takes out the breaker. Turn the A6901 on and bang! Everything gets turned off.

> But if you have the manual, would you mind making a scan for me ? ( the operation part is most important)

This weekend is a possibility. What language? There are English, German, French, Spanish and Japanese operation sections. Service information is in English only.

Craig


Re: Tektronix A6901 ground isolation monitor

Craig Sawyers
 

So if it does not start you should have a ground impedance problem ( or is it not the right test for modern groundfault breaker circuits ( those things in cabinet where your powerlines enter the house) i believe in old houses and some countrys they do not have them)
Correct - it is not compatible with precisely those. In "old" wiring, where there was a simple fuse-box there would be no problem. But in modern cabinets (ie any time in the last 30-odd years), it takes out the breaker. Turn the A6901 on and bang! Everything gets turned off.

But if you have the manual, would you mind making a scan for me ? ( the operation part is most important)
This weekend is a possibility. What language? There are English, German, French, Spanish and Japanese operation sections. Service information is in English only.

Craig


Re: Tektronix A6901 ground isolation monitor

Craig Sawyers
 

And because that has worked so well I will now follow the next step in
your
instructions and use my A9601 exceptionally infrequently ;-)
<grin!>


Re: Is this a real tek scope? (I doubt!)

Alexandre Souza - Listas
 

The "Y-" before the name tektronix makes me believe it is false, but I still ask for confirmation :)

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site:

----- Original Message -----
From: <d.seiter@...>
To: <TekScopes@...>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Is this a real tek scope? (I doubt!)


It's certainly not unique- there's a similar unit with better pictures on ebay right now. It doesn't look quite right, but maybe it was a really cheap model that was farmed out to china for sale in emerging markets? The serial number sticker on the rear seems to to be covering up something else.


-Dave

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas@...>
To: TekScopes@...
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 6:23:33 PM
Subject: [TekScopes] Is this a real tek scope? (I doubt!)









I believe it is something chinese with a blue silk-screen :oD

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site:


Re: Tektronix A6901 ground isolation monitor

 

yep, thats why I ask here about this thing, I do not have a manual, and there is nothing more dangerous as using a "safety device" the wrong way and thinking you are save.

I have got some pictures from the manual from Bob with the switch positions and tests. The drawing telll the thermistor is only for a ground impedance test during start up. So if it does not start you should have a ground impedance problem ( or is it not the right test for modern groundfault breaker circuits ( those things in cabinet where your powerlines enter the house) i believe in old houses and some countrys they do not have them)

But if you have the manual, would you mind making a scan for me ? ( the operation part is most important)

Fred PA4TIM

Op 14 feb. 2013 om 08:27 heeft "Craig Sawyers" <c.sawyers@...> het volgende geschreven:
?


OK - the manual makes no mention of a scope - it always says "load" or "

So like any piece of equipment, it is important to read the manual.


Craig


Re: Tektronix A6901 ground isolation monitor

Stefan Trethan
 

That seems to have done the trick, thank you.

And because that has worked so well I will now follow the next step in
your instructions and use my A9601 exceptionally infrequently ;-)

ST

On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 8:27 AM, Craig Sawyers
<c.sawyers@...> wrote:
Solution is to simply remove
RT410.

How much do I use my A6901? Exceptionally infrequently.

Craig


Re: Tektronix A6901 ground isolation monitor

Craig Sawyers
 

Bur if you were really making a floating measurement in a high current low
voltage system, tripping the protection relay could be a disaster.
Shutting
down the power to the scope, but not the DUT does not correct the
dangerous situation. The current would be only limited by ground
impedances or any over current protection in the DUT. This could be
hundreds of amps. If it is a probe, then it would be the weak link and
the
cable would probably melt. But if it is a solid coax cable with BNC
connection
to the scope, who knows what would melt. For sure it would be a fire
hazard.
OK - the manual makes no mention of a scope - it always says "load" or "test
instrument".

Then in precautions it says:

"Do not connect a probe-ground lead from an isolated test instrument to any
potential greater than 40V peak when operating the test instrument from the
A6901 when in AUTO ISOLATED mode. Damage can occur, both to the circuit
under test and to the isolated testing instrument. Installation of a probe
ground-lead fuse , will reduce the possibility of circuit damage"

It also lists some possible examples of applications (with descriptions):

Telephone exchange equipment
Ground continuity testing
Ground loop noise
Primary circuit measurements

It also provides a number of connection examples, including the use of
isolation transformers under certain circumstances, and ground lead fuses.

So like any piece of equipment, it is important to read the manual.

As I said earlier the only quirk is that it checks for primary ground
continuity by putting a thermistor between Neutral and Ground, specced at 35
ohms at 60C, circuit ref RT410. That always causes any earth leakage
breaker in the property to trip. These trips always measure not earth
leakage current, but current imbalance between live and neutral. So
connecting neutral to ground via a thermistor sets up a current imbalance
which will always trip a modern breaker. Solution is to simply remove
RT410.

How much do I use my A6901? Exceptionally infrequently.

Craig


F/S Tektronic R564B manual

 

For Sale:

Tektronic Manual Type R-564B scope. Good shape no water damage. $25 + shipping book rate.

Rock


Re: Is this a real tek scope? (I doubt!)

 

It's certainly not unique- there's a similar unit with better pictures on ebay right now. ? It doesn't look quite right, but maybe it was a really cheap model that was farmed out to china for sale in emerging markets? ?The serial number sticker on the rear seems to to be covering up something else.

-Dave



From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas"
To: TekScopes@...
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 6:23:33 PM
Subject: [TekScopes] Is this a real tek scope? (I doubt!)

?




I believe it is something chinese with a blue silk-screen :oD

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site:


Re: Type M01 'scope

sipespresso
 

Wow!

--- In TekScopes@..., "Dennis Tillman" wrote:

Hi Steve,

I bought it out of curiosity. I thought it might be an early prototype.
He also had something else that I thought Tom Rousseau would find
interesting:
7A26 DUAL TRACE AMPLIFIER SERIAL NO. NUMERO UNO

-UNO-COLLECTORS-ITEM-RARE-/271147508127?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f21a
6a19f

Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@... [mailto:TekScopes@...] On Behalf
Of Steve
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:52 PM
To: TekScopes@...
Subject: [TekScopes] Re: Type M01 'scope?



--- In TekScopes@..., Jim Reese wrote:

Close to a 7504 or 7704. Early prototype?
?
Jim
Probably an engineering "hack" that needed most of a scope to test something
else, or a production test fixture. The front panel looks like it was
actually anodized with the lettering, so it might have been a production
test fixture that they needed more than one of.

The seller is from Portland, so either they worked at Tek, or bought it from
the company surplus store. These sort of test fixtures and engineering
hacks showed up in the store often 20 years ago.

- Steve




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Is this a real tek scope? (I doubt!)

Alexandre Souza - Listas
 



I believe it is something chinese with a blue silk-screen :oD

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site:


Re: 475 Fan Motor

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Richard,

OOh. That reminds me - maybe do this - use unwaxed dental floss instead of thread. It works REALLY well because it does not stretch and is very strong. I used to use dental floss instead of thread to customize cave diving gear back in the 80s, and I have turned to it ever since when I needed a sort of super thread. CA-saturated dental floss would be like making your own customized aluminum ferrule.

Thanks, Joe
On 2/13/2013 6:45 PM, W6CCD wrote:

?

Joe -

Not sure why I didn't think of that. I have a hammer that the handle
cracked on near the head. Being cheap, I wrapped the break with a flax
string that we used to make bow strings. Then I covered it with something.
Maybe lacquer. Forty years later the hammer is still in great shape.
Thanks for the idea.

Dick

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@... [mailto:TekScopes@...] On Behalf
Of joe.knobtwister
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:52 PM
To: TekScopes@...
Subject: [TekScopes] Re: 475 Fan Motor

Richard:

Not sure what the split hub on the impeller looks like, but I have repaired
such things as follows: First glue the split halves back together with thin
CA (super glue) as you suggested. Then tightly wrap the OD of the hub with
heavy cotton thread, one layer will usually do. While holding the wraps
tight, saturate the thread with the thin CA. Have some acetate handy to
unglue your fingers from the thread, impeller, each other, etc. By the way,
cotton thread works best because it readily absorbs the CA, and be sure
everything is free of oil, etc. before you start.



Re: 475 Fan Motor

W6CCD
 

Joe -

Not sure why I didn't think of that. I have a hammer that the handle
cracked on near the head. Being cheap, I wrapped the break with a flax
string that we used to make bow strings. Then I covered it with something.
Maybe lacquer. Forty years later the hammer is still in great shape.
Thanks for the idea.

Dick

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@... [mailto:TekScopes@...] On Behalf
Of joe.knobtwister
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:52 PM
To: TekScopes@...
Subject: [TekScopes] Re: 475 Fan Motor

Richard:

Not sure what the split hub on the impeller looks like, but I have repaired
such things as follows: First glue the split halves back together with thin
CA (super glue) as you suggested. Then tightly wrap the OD of the hub with
heavy cotton thread, one layer will usually do. While holding the wraps
tight, saturate the thread with the thin CA. Have some acetate handy to
unglue your fingers from the thread, impeller, each other, etc. By the way,
cotton thread works best because it readily absorbs the CA, and be sure
everything is free of oil, etc. before you start.


Re: Tek Probe Question

 

For the gaussian response, the bandwidth = 0.339 / rise time which is
usually shorted to 0.35. For a sampling oscilloscope where the
response is decided weird and not gaussian, the bandwidth = 0.442 /
rise time or bandwidth = 0.468 / rise time depending on how it is
calculated.

Flat response DSOs could be anywhere from 0.4 to 0.5 but also display
preshoot and overshoot when the input pulse is too fast. I now
believe that explains the pulse distortion I saw on the Tektronix
MSO5204 that I evaluated.

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:03:47 -0800, "Dennis Tillman"
<dennis@...> wrote:

Steve,

Yes, I forget that not everyone has an analog scope with Gaussian response.
Owning only Tek analog scopes I am spoiled and assume every scope is
Gaussian.

To clarify a point you made that might mislead some people regarding
sampling:
I cannot speak about the high speed sampling scopes you mention and their
having Gaussian response but I believe the traditional sampling plugins
(S-series heads) that I have used do not have a Gaussian response. The
response of these heads usually gives the misleading appearance of a faster
rise and fall time than is actually the case.

Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve, Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 3:14 PM

--- In TekScopes@..., "Dennis Tillman" wrote:

Dave,

The key word is "USEFUL". The simple answer is that depends on what
you mean by useful which, in turn, depends on what you intend to
measure with your probe and scope.

To find the overall risetime of your entire system (probe and scope)
add the square of the probe risetime to the square of the scope
risetime and take the square root of the sum. For example: A scope
with a 0.5nSec risetime (700MHz bandwidth) combined with a probe with
a 0.7nSec risetime (500MHz
bandwidth) will have a combined risetime that is 406MHz.

The square root of (0.5 * 0.5) + (0.7 * 0.7) = sqrt (0.25 + 0.49) =
0.86nSec = 406MHz.

You can learn a lot by reading the excellent Application Note Tek
wrote called "The XYZs of Probes". It is widely available on the web.

Dennis
Quick note - the RMS summing equations for computing system rise time and
frequency response only work with older analog scopes. They assume Gaussian
response, which modern digital scopes do not have. A lot of users trip on
this when trying to measure fast rise times of a DUT that approach the scope
rise time.

The good news is that high speed sampling scopes still have Gaussian
resposne, and since they have extremely high BW, the Tr tends to be much
less than the DUT.

-Steve


Re: 475 Fan Motor

 

Richard:

Not sure what the split hub on the impeller looks like, but I have repaired such things as follows: First glue the split halves back together with thin CA (super glue) as you suggested. Then tightly wrap the OD of the hub with heavy cotton thread, one layer will usually do. While holding the wraps tight, saturate the thread with the thin CA. Have some acetate handy to unglue your fingers from the thread, impeller, each other, etc. By the way, cotton thread works best because it readily absorbs the CA, and be sure everything is free of oil, etc. before you start.

--- In TekScopes@..., "Richard" wrote:

I did do a lot of snooping around before I posted. I found information on muffin fans, R/C motors, etc., but nothing specific to the 475 motor. Maybe in some very early posts?

I took the impeller off, and got some lubricant on the shaft. The motor is fairly quiet now. Not perfect, but livable. The impeller is the problem. It is split right through the shaft hole on both sides, so it is not possible to tighten the impeller on the shaft. Are impellers available anywhere?

It looks like getting the motor out, and removing the circuit board on the back end to access the rear bearing is not a real easy job.

Dick



--- In TekScopes@..., "Tom Jobe" wrote:

Richard,
Do a search of the Tekscopes message archive on 475 fan, 465 fan and 4xx fan. This subject has been discussed many times. In my experience there is almost no chance you can't save it fairly easily. Getting oil into the sleeve bearings and setting the armature end play is about all you need to do.
tom jobe...


Re: Tektronix A6901 ground isolation monitor

 

Thnks for the explanation.
Then I think it is usefull for what I want, power a DUT with it instead of a scope and use it as an isolation transformer with some added safety. Because if I understand you right, and the schematical drawing, in the case of a fault/short the DUT's case is grounded and powered down. And that is what I want.
( i have 3 differential p6046 probes and several differential plugins for the 7000 and 5XX series, so it is not intended for floating meaurements) i use the isolation transformer for safety just in case I make a fault by accident. I had a nasty experience with a HP 9100, it had a leaking mainsfilter cap. I touched the floating cabinet and an earthed rack and got a shock. I was only using a multimeter at that time.
?
Fred PA4TIM

Op 14 feb. 2013 om 01:14 heeft "Steve" <ditter2@...> het volgende geschreven:

?

--- In TekScopes@..., "fred" wrote:
>
> I have one, can anybody tell more about it. I can not find a manual and the info I do find is confusing.
>
> I know it should be used between scope and mains but I read
> - it floats the scope and switches off the power if there is > 40V ground difference
> - it grounds the scope but over 40V it beeps as warning and then floats the scope.
>
> I use a huge variac and isolation tranfsormer to connect the instruments I'm repairing. I wanted to use this instead in some cases so it is still save but I know when there is a problem ( for instance leaking netfilter caps or transformer)
> And in other cases/experiments protect for instance a signal generator or scope . So it's original use.
>
> Fred PA4TIM
>

In the fault trip mode, it does not float the scope - it grounds it!!!!

I have never figured this thing out. and I can see as a real source of danger if used incorrectly.

It basically floats the ground of the scope up to 40 volts, and also has a GFCI detection circuit in it. The ground pin of the scope power cable is isolated, but by the open contacts of a heavy duty relay. If the GFCI trips or the floating voltage exceeds 40 volts, the relay closes, clamping the scope to ground. The power to the scope is also cut.

If you are only trying to break a ground loop in the measurement set-up, then this may be useful. For example, when an AM503 is used in the vicinity of high currents (such as motor drives using an A6303 probe), the ground loop formed between the safety grounds of the TM500 mainframe the AM503 is in, the scope ground, and the ground of the BNC cable that connects the amp to the scope input can make the measurement impossible.

Bur if you were really making a floating measurement in a high current low voltage system, tripping the protection relay could be a disaster. Shutting down the power to the scope, but not the DUT does not correct the dangerous situation. The current would be only limited by ground impedances or any over current protection in the DUT. This could be hundreds of amps. If it is a probe, then it would be the weak link and the cable would probably melt. But if it is a solid coax cable with BNC connection to the scope, who knows what would melt. For sure it would be a fire hazard.

I was at a customer site and saw a similar accident, although the A6901 was not involved. They were measuring small amplitude noise on a low voltage power supply for a computer. It had several hundred amp capability. They did not have a differential amplifier, so them measured single ended. The scope was floating, but only to a few volts. Something faulted and grounded the scope, perhaps another BNC connection. Anyway, I smelled a strange odor and turned around to see the vinyl jacket of the Tek probe lead softening and dripping to the floor. It was weird, as the entire probe cable was melting, and the insulation was dripping from the entire length. The engineer hit a panic button that killed the entire bench power. The DUT and the scope lived, but the probe was toast.

- Steve