On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 10:43:12 -0000, "tjeenz" <tjeenz@...> wrote:

I removed u460. (ca3102 from rca). it is broken (20ohm between 1 and 14 in both directions)
also i found a diode connected on the top to pin 12. i couldn't detect pin 12 in the schematics... now start looking for a ca3102

On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 08:50:17 -0000, "tjeenz" <tjeenz@...> wrote:

Voltage U460 pin3 and 9 is -8.6V, R456 is ok.
pin 1 and 8 are 3.5V not 2.2

That fits with pin 1 being 3.5 volts instead of 2.2 volts. The low
resistance between the collector and base is pulling that node up via
the high output of U480C.

Pin 2 and pin 10 at about 0.0 volts while pin 3 is -8.6 volts suggests
that the emitters of U460E and U460B is open as well.

Pin 12 and pin 5 are connected internally to the substrate. The
CA3102 is built on a junction isolated process so the substrate
connects to each transistor via a diode which is reverse biased to
provide isolation.

u460 is unfortunately not on a socket.

When replacing U460, I would cut the collet pins out of an IC socket
and individually install them into the PC board to make a low profile
socket for the new IC.

To access u460 and area, i see i have to remove some components. I will start on that a.s.a.p. but a question: some loose contact in the timebase switch. sometimes it generates only half screen image when i move with that knob. is that the pot-meter in the middle?

From what I remember of the 2213, the timebase switch uses a different
and unreliable design from the other 22xx series oscilloscopes.
Someone else may have suggestions for repairing it.

Take the knobs off and put a drop of thin oil on the shaft where it goes into the pot. Give it a day or so and try it. Should help with the noise.


Tom


----- Original Message -----
From: pdxareaid
To: TekScopes@...
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:23 PM
Subject: [TekScopes] Re: WooHoo! 465B



yes, i just tried it out. dual rate pot. it felt "grindy" and seemed malfunctioning but with this knowledge i can see it just needs some cleaning maybe, but it is functioning correctly. scratch another fix off the list :-)
the intensity pot is pretty ugly though it does seem to have gotten a little better since yesterday. i have beat on it pretty hard...i don't think i can avoid cleaning it if i can get into it.
i'll chase down trigger view in next day or 2 probably.
thanks for all the help.
phil

--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@ wrote:
>
> It is a dual-rate pot. You turn it just past where you want to be and
> when you back up it's a slower rate. You can feel it in the amount
> of torque you have to apply. If you can figure a way to get it in
> there, Deoxit D5 will help clean it up. Same stuff will also probably
> help the trigger view switch. A little exercise will certainly help as
> well.
>
> -ls-
>
>
> "pdxareaid" <public_email@> wrote:
> > thanks,
> > the wonky pots are hopeless unless there is something i don't
> > understand about coarse vs fine adjustment but i doubt it.
> > 1st pass i will try to get them out and deconstruct without breaking
> > them, if possible. they are still semi-useable with care.
> >
> > there is something definitely wrong with trigger view. i was
> > triggering on calibration square wave and still seeing a flat line.
> > probably something simple.
> >
> >
> > funny, i have been reading about the tantalum nightmare and considered
> > myself lucky there were none in the 465M that needed a major PS
> > rebuild...but here i am with tants in the 465B...lucky it made its
> > presence knows with smoke and moaning and goo. :-)
> >
> > phil
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In TekScopes@..., "Dave B" <dave@> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 25 Sep 2012 at 0:52, TekScopes@... wrote:
> > >
> > > > Posted by: "pdxareaid"
> > > > Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:48 pm ((PDT))
> > > >
> > > > i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all
> > previous
> > > > responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
> > > >
> > > > i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
> > > > needed some attention...
> > > >
> > > > i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen
> > rather
> > > > than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full
> > intensity.) i
> > > > looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
> > > > noticed a solder bead on one of the three. i poked it and it fell
> > > > off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some adjustments and
> > things
> > > > were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead on the outside of
> > a
> > > > tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i tweaked at the
> > same
> > > > time?
> > > >
> > > > so since it appeared it was not going to catch fire this time, i
> > let
> > > > it run and things stayed nice and stable. i turned it off and
> > tested
> > > > all of the transistors in the area of the smoking tantalum (this
> > is at
> > > > rear of sweep logic board btw). they all appear ok.
> > > >
> > > > man, you people with socketed transistors have it easy. try
> > testing a
> > > > transistor on a 465M. you have to desolder it...no sockets!
> > (except
> > > > about four i found that probably should not have been there lol)
> > no
> > > > sockets is part of the "ruggedized for the military" modification.
> > > >
> > > > so, things are working fine with a few mechanical probs. i found
> > a
> > > > loose transistor preventing the x1 light on chnl 1, stuck it back
> > in
> > > > and that prob is fixed.
> > > >
> > > > the horizontal position pot is wonky. lots of play. i've seen
> > this
> > > > before on the 465M. i guess 35yrs of use takes it's toll.
> > > >
> > > > the main intensity pot is dirty or toast. i will probably attack
> > it
> > > > soon.
> > > > but careful fiddling and it gets you where you want to be.
> > > >
> > > > the B delay pot knob is offset to 0.2 when bottomed out. and it
> > shows
> > > > on the trace. i think this was previous owners way of correcting
> > for
> > > > improper registration on the trace. likely a simple calibration
> > tweak
> > > > will fix it and i'll rezero that pot knob.
> > > >
> > > > this is a significant one:
> > > > the A trig view only shows a flat line but everything is
> > triggering
> > > > properly (including B sweep stuff). possibly a loose jumper wire
> > etc.
> > > > i'll chase it soon.
> > > >
> > > > since it was staying up (for 2 hours now) i took PS readings at
> > test
> > > > points.
> > > >
> > > > voltage VDC, ripple mV p-p
> > > >
> > > > supply voltage spec ripple spec
> > > > +110 108.2 106.7 to 113.3 16 20
> > > > +55 54.9 54.62 to 55.39 3 4
> > > > +15 15.00 14.75 to 15.26 1 2
> > > > +5 5.01 4.92 to 5.09 1 2
> > > > -8 -8.01 -7.86 to -8.14 1 2
> > > >
> > > > not too shabby. i may take a look at getting +110 closer to 110.
> > i
> > > > am still nervous about ps filter caps because my 465M worked for a
> > few
> > > > hours then tore itself apart with failed caps and exploding
> > > > transistors. i'll keep an eye on it for a while. it would be
> > nice
> > > > not to have to recap this thing. (i know about reforming but i'd
> > > > rather recap and be sure)
> > > >
> > > > all the other bells and whistles seem to be working x10-mag etc.
> > and
> > > > timing and vertical deflection look right on.
> > > >
> > > > So, not a very exciting fix but so far i have a nice working 465B
> > but
> > > > i'm quite sure why :-o phil
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well done!
> > >
> > > The Tant's with what looked like a blob of solder, are failed parts.
> >
> > > That blob, was molten Tantalum Metal ejected from the part when it
> > > failed. You got lucky clearing the short by knocking off that
> > blob.
> > > Best the part be replaced for a long life from now on.
> > >
> > > Not sure about the A-Trig View issue. I presume you had a signal
> > for it
> > > to trigger on, and that was selected. But maybe just a dirty
> > siwitch
> > > contact, or something related in the vertical logic. For now, it
> > sounds
> > > like you've a 99% working instrument, and a massive grin no doubt.
> > >
> > > Dirty pots, just "Exersize them" back and forth with the power off,
> > and
> > > they will then improve with use. Some can be stripped apart and
> > > cleaned, but very fiddly to do, and needing care not to damage the
> > track
> > > etc, plus finding out what the correct lube to put back in there is,
> > is
> > > not easy. I'm guessing silicone grease, but I don't know for sure.
> > >
> > > Best Regards.
> > >
> > > Dave B.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

----- Original Message -----

From: pdxareaid

To: TekScopes@...

Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:23 PM

Subject: [TekScopes] Re: WooHoo! 465B

?

yes, i just tried it out. dual rate pot. it felt "grindy" and seemed malfunctioning but with this knowledge i can see it just needs some cleaning maybe, but it is functioning correctly. scratch another fix off the list :-)
the intensity pot is pretty ugly though it does seem to have gotten a little better since yesterday. i have beat on it pretty hard...i don't think i can avoid cleaning it if i can get into it.
i'll chase down trigger view in next day or 2 probably.
thanks for all the help.
phil

--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@... wrote:
>
> It is a dual-rate pot. You turn it just past where you want to be and
> when you back up it's a slower rate. You can feel it in the amount
> of torque you have to apply. If you can figure a way to get it in
> there, Deoxit D5 will help clean it up. Same stuff will also probably
> help the trigger view switch. A little exercise will certainly help as
> well.
>
> -ls-
>
>
> "pdxareaid" wrote:
> > thanks,
> > the wonky pots are hopeless unless there is something i don't
> > understand about coarse vs fine adjustment but i doubt it.
> > 1st pass i will try to get them out and deconstruct without breaking
> > them, if possible. they are still semi-useable with care.
> >
> > there is something definitely wrong with trigger view. i was
> > triggering on calibration square wave and still seeing a flat line.
> > probably something simple.
> >
> >
> > funny, i have been reading about the tantalum nightmare and considered
> > myself lucky there were none in the 465M that needed a major PS
> > rebuild...but here i am with tants in the 465B...lucky it made its
> > presence knows with smoke and moaning and goo. :-)
> >
> > phil
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In TekScopes@..., "Dave B" wrote:
> > >
> > > On 25 Sep 2012 at 0:52, TekScopes@... wrote:
> > >
> > > > Posted by: "pdxareaid"
> > > > Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:48 pm ((PDT))
> > > >
> > > > i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all
> > previous
> > > > responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
> > > >
> > > > i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
> > > > needed some attention...
> > > >
> > > > i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen
> > rather
> > > > than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full
> > intensity.) i
> > > > looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
> > > > noticed a solder bead on one of the three. i poked it and it fell
> > > > off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some adjustments and
> > things
> > > > were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead on the outside of
> > a
> > > > tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i tweaked at the
> > same
> > > > time?
> > > >
> > > > so since it appeared it was not going to catch fire this time, i
> > let
> > > > it run and things stayed nice and stable. i turned it off and
> > tested
> > > > all of the transistors in the area of the smoking tantalum (this
> > is at
> > > > rear of sweep logic board btw). they all appear ok.
> > > >
> > > > man, you people with socketed transistors have it easy. try
> > testing a
> > > > transistor on a 465M. you have to desolder it...no sockets!
> > (except
> > > > about four i found that probably should not have been there lol)
> > no
> > > > sockets is part of the "ruggedized for the military" modification.
> > > >
> > > > so, things are working fine with a few mechanical probs. i found
> > a
> > > > loose transistor preventing the x1 light on chnl 1, stuck it back
> > in
> > > > and that prob is fixed.
> > > >
> > > > the horizontal position pot is wonky. lots of play. i've seen
> > this
> > > > before on the 465M. i guess 35yrs of use takes it's toll.
> > > >
> > > > the main intensity pot is dirty or toast. i will probably attack
> > it
> > > > soon.
> > > > but careful fiddling and it gets you where you want to be.
> > > >
> > > > the B delay pot knob is offset to 0.2 when bottomed out. and it
> > shows
> > > > on the trace. i think this was previous owners way of correcting
> > for
> > > > improper registration on the trace. likely a simple calibration
> > tweak
> > > > will fix it and i'll rezero that pot knob.
> > > >
> > > > this is a significant one:
> > > > the A trig view only shows a flat line but everything is
> > triggering
> > > > properly (including B sweep stuff). possibly a loose jumper wire
> > etc.
> > > > i'll chase it soon.
> > > >
> > > > since it was staying up (for 2 hours now) i took PS readings at
> > test
> > > > points.
> > > >
> > > > voltage VDC, ripple mV p-p
> > > >
> > > > supply voltage spec ripple spec
> > > > +110 108.2 106.7 to 113.3 16 20
> > > > +55 54.9 54.62 to 55.39 3 4
> > > > +15 15.00 14.75 to 15.26 1 2
> > > > +5 5.01 4.92 to 5.09 1 2
> > > > -8 -8.01 -7.86 to -8.14 1 2
> > > >
> > > > not too shabby. i may take a look at getting +110 closer to 110.
> > i
> > > > am still nervous about ps filter caps because my 465M worked for a
> > few
> > > > hours then tore itself apart with failed caps and exploding
> > > > transistors. i'll keep an eye on it for a while. it would be
> > nice
> > > > not to have to recap this thing. (i know about reforming but i'd
> > > > rather recap and be sure)
> > > >
> > > > all the other bells and whistles seem to be working x10-mag etc.
> > and
> > > > timing and vertical deflection look right on.
> > > >
> > > > So, not a very exciting fix but so far i have a nice working 465B
> > but
> > > > i'm quite sure why :-o phil
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well done!
> > >
> > > The Tant's with what looked like a blob of solder, are failed parts.
> >
> > > That blob, was molten Tantalum Metal ejected from the part when it
> > > failed. You got lucky clearing the short by knocking off that
> > blob.
> > > Best the part be replaced for a long life from now on.
> > >
> > > Not sure about the A-Trig View issue. I presume you had a signal
> > for it
> > > to trigger on, and that was selected. But maybe just a dirty
> > siwitch
> > > contact, or something related in the vertical logic. For now, it
> > sounds
> > > like you've a 99% working instrument, and a massive grin no doubt.
> > >
> > > Dirty pots, just "Exersize them" back and forth with the power off,
> > and
> > > they will then improve with use. Some can be stripped apart and
> > > cleaned, but very fiddly to do, and needing care not to damage the
> > track
> > > etc, plus finding out what the correct lube to put back in there is,
> > is
> > > not easy. I'm guessing silicone grease, but I don't know for sure.
> > >
> > > Best Regards.
> > >
> > > Dave B.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

It is a dual-rate pot. You turn it just past where you want to be and
when you back up it's a slower rate. You can feel it in the amount
of torque you have to apply. If you can figure a way to get it in
there, Deoxit D5 will help clean it up. Same stuff will also probably
help the trigger view switch. A little exercise will certainly help as
well.

-ls-


"pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:

thanks,
the wonky pots are hopeless unless there is something i don't
understand about coarse vs fine adjustment but i doubt it.
1st pass i will try to get them out and deconstruct without breaking
them, if possible. they are still semi-useable with care.

there is something definitely wrong with trigger view. i was
triggering on calibration square wave and still seeing a flat line.
probably something simple.


funny, i have been reading about the tantalum nightmare and considered
myself lucky there were none in the 465M that needed a major PS
rebuild...but here i am with tants in the 465B...lucky it made its
presence knows with smoke and moaning and goo. :-)

phil



--- In TekScopes@..., "Dave B" <dave@> wrote:

On 25 Sep 2012 at 0:52, TekScopes@... wrote:

Posted by: "pdxareaid"
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:48 pm ((PDT))

i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all

previous

responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...

i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...

i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen

rather

than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full

intensity.) i

looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three. i poked it and it fell
off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some adjustments and

things

were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead on the outside of

a

tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i tweaked at the

same

time?

so since it appeared it was not going to catch fire this time, i

let

it run and things stayed nice and stable. i turned it off and

tested

all of the transistors in the area of the smoking tantalum (this

is at

rear of sweep logic board btw). they all appear ok.

man, you people with socketed transistors have it easy. try

testing a

transistor on a 465M. you have to desolder it...no sockets!

(except

about four i found that probably should not have been there lol)

no

sockets is part of the "ruggedized for the military" modification.

so, things are working fine with a few mechanical probs. i found

a

loose transistor preventing the x1 light on chnl 1, stuck it back

in

and that prob is fixed.

the horizontal position pot is wonky. lots of play. i've seen

this

before on the 465M. i guess 35yrs of use takes it's toll.

the main intensity pot is dirty or toast. i will probably attack

it

soon.
but careful fiddling and it gets you where you want to be.

the B delay pot knob is offset to 0.2 when bottomed out. and it

shows

on the trace. i think this was previous owners way of correcting

for

improper registration on the trace. likely a simple calibration

tweak

will fix it and i'll rezero that pot knob.

this is a significant one:
the A trig view only shows a flat line but everything is

triggering

properly (including B sweep stuff). possibly a loose jumper wire

etc.

i'll chase it soon.

since it was staying up (for 2 hours now) i took PS readings at

test

points.

voltage VDC, ripple mV p-p

supply voltage spec ripple spec
+110 108.2 106.7 to 113.3 16 20
+55 54.9 54.62 to 55.39 3 4
+15 15.00 14.75 to 15.26 1 2
+5 5.01 4.92 to 5.09 1 2
-8 -8.01 -7.86 to -8.14 1 2

not too shabby. i may take a look at getting +110 closer to 110.

i

am still nervous about ps filter caps because my 465M worked for a

few

hours then tore itself apart with failed caps and exploding
transistors. i'll keep an eye on it for a while. it would be

nice

not to have to recap this thing. (i know about reforming but i'd
rather recap and be sure)

all the other bells and whistles seem to be working x10-mag etc.

and

timing and vertical deflection look right on.

So, not a very exciting fix but so far i have a nice working 465B

but

i'm quite sure why :-o phil

Well done!

The Tant's with what looked like a blob of solder, are failed parts.

That blob, was molten Tantalum Metal ejected from the part when it
failed. You got lucky clearing the short by knocking off that

blob.

Best the part be replaced for a long life from now on.

Not sure about the A-Trig View issue. I presume you had a signal

for it

to trigger on, and that was selected. But maybe just a dirty

siwitch

contact, or something related in the vertical logic. For now, it

sounds

like you've a 99% working instrument, and a massive grin no doubt.

Dirty pots, just "Exersize them" back and forth with the power off,

and

they will then improve with use. Some can be stripped apart and
cleaned, but very fiddly to do, and needing care not to damage the

track

etc, plus finding out what the correct lube to put back in there is,

is

not easy. I'm guessing silicone grease, but I don't know for sure.

Best Regards.

Dave B.

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

ah, i see parts scheme now. it is all thee in service manual.
values confirmed for those tants 15uf, 20v, 20%.
can i use any type of cap that meets those specs or is there something
magical about tants? i know virtually nothing about them.
phil


--- In TekScopes@..., "pdxareaid" <public_email@...>
wrote:

i took a pic. i'll send it to your personal email. i see know easy

way to attach a pic to these replies.

i have 3 brown blob "dipped" tants for C7196, C7197 and C7288.
i forget exactly which of these was smoking (and probably leaking).

I see no scars. but it was definitely one of those 3.

the pdf i have shows them as axial at the rear of the sweep logic

board near the 3 white jumpers. maybe i am taking the board pic too
literally. I have not fully parsed the service manual yet (this all
happened so fast) but it seems i don't have the parts descriptions
necessary in that manual to determine voltage/capacitance values for
replacements. i may not have looked hard enough.

pic on the way.
thanks, phil



--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@ wrote:

Which cap are we talking about? I'll slide the skin off of mine

and

see what it has in it. The pic in the manual almost looks like a
wet tant. Those weren't real commonly used.
-ls-

"pdxareaid" <public_email@> wrote:

yeah, tantalum innards leaking out occurred to me but it sure

looked like solder.

what you say makes more sense. i never looked up tantalum

construction but i understand they are electrolytic. i will replace
for sure.

i need to look more but the board pic in the service manual does

not show tantalum. they appear to be axials of some sort. is this
common?

i would like to not replace with tantalums. is there a

suggested replacement?

thanks for info on .2 pot. the 465M is 0.0 i'll have to read

about the 465B version.

thanks, phil

--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@ wrote:

Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace

that tant

anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it.
And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM

pot

for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary.
-ls-





"pdxareaid" <public_email@> wrote:

i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all

previous

responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...

i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess

it just

needed some attention...

i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the

screen rather

than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full

intensity.)

i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking

yesterday and

noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped

back. some

adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a

solder bead

on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold

solder i

tweaked at the same time?

-------snip---------

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

thanks,
the wonky pots are hopeless unless there is something i don't
understand about coarse vs fine adjustment but i doubt it.
1st pass i will try to get them out and deconstruct without breaking
them, if possible. they are still semi-useable with care.

there is something definitely wrong with trigger view. i was
triggering on calibration square wave and still seeing a flat line.
probably something simple.


funny, i have been reading about the tantalum nightmare and considered
myself lucky there were none in the 465M that needed a major PS
rebuild...but here i am with tants in the 465B...lucky it made its
presence knows with smoke and moaning and goo. :-)

phil



--- In TekScopes@..., "Dave B" <dave@...> wrote:

On 25 Sep 2012 at 0:52, TekScopes@... wrote:

Posted by: "pdxareaid"
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:48 pm ((PDT))

i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all

previous

responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...

i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...

i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen

rather

than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full

intensity.) i

looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three. i poked it and it fell
off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some adjustments and

things

were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead on the outside of

a

tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i tweaked at the

same

time?

so since it appeared it was not going to catch fire this time, i

let

it run and things stayed nice and stable. i turned it off and

tested

all of the transistors in the area of the smoking tantalum (this

is at

rear of sweep logic board btw). they all appear ok.

man, you people with socketed transistors have it easy. try

testing a

transistor on a 465M. you have to desolder it...no sockets!

(except

about four i found that probably should not have been there lol)

no

sockets is part of the "ruggedized for the military" modification.

so, things are working fine with a few mechanical probs. i found

a

loose transistor preventing the x1 light on chnl 1, stuck it back

in

and that prob is fixed.

the horizontal position pot is wonky. lots of play. i've seen

this

before on the 465M. i guess 35yrs of use takes it's toll.

the main intensity pot is dirty or toast. i will probably attack

it

soon.
but careful fiddling and it gets you where you want to be.

the B delay pot knob is offset to 0.2 when bottomed out. and it

shows

on the trace. i think this was previous owners way of correcting

for

improper registration on the trace. likely a simple calibration

tweak

will fix it and i'll rezero that pot knob.

this is a significant one:
the A trig view only shows a flat line but everything is

triggering

properly (including B sweep stuff). possibly a loose jumper wire

etc.

i'll chase it soon.

since it was staying up (for 2 hours now) i took PS readings at

test

points.

voltage VDC, ripple mV p-p

supply voltage spec ripple spec
+110 108.2 106.7 to 113.3 16 20
+55 54.9 54.62 to 55.39 3 4
+15 15.00 14.75 to 15.26 1 2
+5 5.01 4.92 to 5.09 1 2
-8 -8.01 -7.86 to -8.14 1 2

not too shabby. i may take a look at getting +110 closer to 110.

i

am still nervous about ps filter caps because my 465M worked for a

few

hours then tore itself apart with failed caps and exploding
transistors. i'll keep an eye on it for a while. it would be

nice

not to have to recap this thing. (i know about reforming but i'd
rather recap and be sure)

all the other bells and whistles seem to be working x10-mag etc.

and

timing and vertical deflection look right on.

So, not a very exciting fix but so far i have a nice working 465B

but

i'm quite sure why :-o phil

Well done!

The Tant's with what looked like a blob of solder, are failed parts.

That blob, was molten Tantalum Metal ejected from the part when it
failed. You got lucky clearing the short by knocking off that

blob.

Best the part be replaced for a long life from now on.

Not sure about the A-Trig View issue. I presume you had a signal

for it

to trigger on, and that was selected. But maybe just a dirty

siwitch

contact, or something related in the vertical logic. For now, it

sounds

like you've a 99% working instrument, and a massive grin no doubt.

Dirty pots, just "Exersize them" back and forth with the power off,

and

they will then improve with use. Some can be stripped apart and
cleaned, but very fiddly to do, and needing care not to damage the

track

etc, plus finding out what the correct lube to put back in there is,

is

not easy. I'm guessing silicone grease, but I don't know for sure.

Best Regards.

Dave B.

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

i took a pic. i'll send it to your personal email. i see know easy way to attach a pic to these replies.

i have 3 brown blob "dipped" tants for C7196, C7197 and C7288.
i forget exactly which of these was smoking (and probably leaking). I see no scars. but it was definitely one of those 3.
the pdf i have shows them as axial at the rear of the sweep logic board near the 3 white jumpers. maybe i am taking the board pic too literally. I have not fully parsed the service manual yet (this all happened so fast) but it seems i don't have the parts descriptions necessary in that manual to determine voltage/capacitance values for replacements. i may not have looked hard enough.
pic on the way.
thanks, phil



--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@ wrote:

Which cap are we talking about? I'll slide the skin off of mine and
see what it has in it. The pic in the manual almost looks like a
wet tant. Those weren't real commonly used.
-ls-

"pdxareaid" <public_email@> wrote:

yeah, tantalum innards leaking out occurred to me but it sure looked like solder.
what you say makes more sense. i never looked up tantalum construction but i understand they are electrolytic. i will replace for sure.
i need to look more but the board pic in the service manual does not show tantalum. they appear to be axials of some sort. is this common?
i would like to not replace with tantalums. is there a suggested replacement?

thanks for info on .2 pot. the 465M is 0.0 i'll have to read about the 465B version.
thanks, phil

--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@ wrote:

Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace that tant
anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it.
And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM pot
for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary.
-ls-





"pdxareaid" <public_email@> wrote:

i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...

i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...

i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some
adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead
on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i
tweaked at the same time?

-------snip---------

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

On 25 Sep 2012 at 0:52, TekScopes@... wrote:

Posted by: "pdxareaid"
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:48 pm ((PDT))

i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...

i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...

i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.) i
looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three. i poked it and it fell
off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some adjustments and things
were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead on the outside of a
tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i tweaked at the same
time?

so since it appeared it was not going to catch fire this time, i let
it run and things stayed nice and stable. i turned it off and tested
all of the transistors in the area of the smoking tantalum (this is at
rear of sweep logic board btw). they all appear ok.

man, you people with socketed transistors have it easy. try testing a
transistor on a 465M. you have to desolder it...no sockets! (except
about four i found that probably should not have been there lol) no
sockets is part of the "ruggedized for the military" modification.

so, things are working fine with a few mechanical probs. i found a
loose transistor preventing the x1 light on chnl 1, stuck it back in
and that prob is fixed.

the horizontal position pot is wonky. lots of play. i've seen this
before on the 465M. i guess 35yrs of use takes it's toll.

the main intensity pot is dirty or toast. i will probably attack it
soon.
but careful fiddling and it gets you where you want to be.

the B delay pot knob is offset to 0.2 when bottomed out. and it shows
on the trace. i think this was previous owners way of correcting for
improper registration on the trace. likely a simple calibration tweak
will fix it and i'll rezero that pot knob.

this is a significant one:
the A trig view only shows a flat line but everything is triggering
properly (including B sweep stuff). possibly a loose jumper wire etc.
i'll chase it soon.

since it was staying up (for 2 hours now) i took PS readings at test
points.

voltage VDC, ripple mV p-p

supply voltage spec ripple spec
+110 108.2 106.7 to 113.3 16 20
+55 54.9 54.62 to 55.39 3 4
+15 15.00 14.75 to 15.26 1 2
+5 5.01 4.92 to 5.09 1 2
-8 -8.01 -7.86 to -8.14 1 2

not too shabby. i may take a look at getting +110 closer to 110. i
am still nervous about ps filter caps because my 465M worked for a few
hours then tore itself apart with failed caps and exploding
transistors. i'll keep an eye on it for a while. it would be nice
not to have to recap this thing. (i know about reforming but i'd
rather recap and be sure)

all the other bells and whistles seem to be working x10-mag etc. and
timing and vertical deflection look right on.

So, not a very exciting fix but so far i have a nice working 465B but
i'm quite sure why :-o phil

Well done!

The Tant's with what looked like a blob of solder, are failed parts.
That blob, was molten Tantalum Metal ejected from the part when it
failed. You got lucky clearing the short by knocking off that blob.
Best the part be replaced for a long life from now on.

Not sure about the A-Trig View issue. I presume you had a signal for it
to trigger on, and that was selected. But maybe just a dirty siwitch
contact, or something related in the vertical logic. For now, it sounds
like you've a 99% working instrument, and a massive grin no doubt.

Dirty pots, just "Exersize them" back and forth with the power off, and
they will then improve with use. Some can be stripped apart and
cleaned, but very fiddly to do, and needing care not to damage the track
etc, plus finding out what the correct lube to put back in there is, is
not easy. I'm guessing silicone grease, but I don't know for sure.

Best Regards.

Dave B.

I have never heard the term "chary" before, and thought it was a typo until it appeared more than once.??



Now?? that I see it's??real, is ??it a regional term, or maybe it's gone out of fashion ??? Why wou ld one use it instead of, say, wary?



-Dave



----- Original Message -----


From: "Miroslav Pokorni" <mpokorni@...>
To: TekScopes@...
Cc: "John Miles" <jmiles@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 10:24:29 PM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Interesting account of HP's attempt to compete with the 7000 series

??




" review would be with two guys notoriously chary about poor engineering detail execution ". That is probably why hp, unlike Tektronix, did not have any overloaded/discolored resistors or electrolytics running on only few volts of voltage margin.

Miroslav Pokorni

On 9/21/2012 5:38 PM, John Miles wrote:

??



Chuck House talks about where the HP logic-analyzer product line came from -- a classic solution-in-search-of-a-problem scenario, but one where it turned out that there actually was a problem to be solved.?? (Warning: very long.)

??



"We'd already spent $2 million, with a burn rate that had to escalate for our next phase. We were, at best, two years from delivery. The Tek engineers told me that they had spent $34 million dollars and seven years of effort, to get to this (IEEE) show with an incomplete line. Whew!

Worse, my team was having trouble debugging our own prototype scheduled for a division review in four weeks. That review would be with two guys notoriously chary about poor engineering detail execution - Packard and Hewlett, headed to Colorad! o Springs in late April. It was not hard to figure out what to do. I had to cancel Next Gen.

The first problem was that I was in love with it..."

-- john, KE5FX

?

If we're looking right above the power switch, I have 3 ea 15 uF @ 20 V
tants. Looks like they are decoupling for +/- 8 & +5, so 20 V
wasn't too close. I dunno. They die.

Even with a couple bad tants, you got one helluva deal. That scope is
my favorite 'go to' portable.

-ls-


larrys@... wrote:

Which cap are we talking about? I'll slide the skin off of mine and
see what it has in it. The pic in the manual almost looks like a
wet tant. Those weren't real commonly used.
-ls-

"pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:

yeah, tantalum innards leaking out occurred to me but it sure looked like solder.
what you say makes more sense. i never looked up tantalum construction but i understand they are electrolytic. i will replace for sure.
i need to look more but the board pic in the service manual does not show tantalum. they appear to be axials of some sort. is this common?
i would like to not replace with tantalums. is there a suggested replacement?

thanks for info on .2 pot. the 465M is 0.0 i'll have to read about the 465B version.
thanks, phil

--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@ wrote:

Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace that tant
anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it.
And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM pot
for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary.
-ls-





"pdxareaid" <public_email@> wrote:

i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...

i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...

i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some
adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead
on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i
tweaked at the same time?

-------snip---------

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Which cap are we talking about? I'll slide the skin off of mine and
see what it has in it. The pic in the manual almost looks like a
wet tant. Those weren't real commonly used.
-ls-

"pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:

yeah, tantalum innards leaking out occurred to me but it sure looked like solder.
what you say makes more sense. i never looked up tantalum construction but i understand they are electrolytic. i will replace for sure.
i need to look more but the board pic in the service manual does not show tantalum. they appear to be axials of some sort. is this common?
i would like to not replace with tantalums. is there a suggested replacement?

thanks for info on .2 pot. the 465M is 0.0 i'll have to read about the 465B version.
thanks, phil

--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@ wrote:

Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace that tant
anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it.
And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM pot
for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary.
-ls-





"pdxareaid" <public_email@> wrote:

i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...

i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...

i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some
adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead
on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i
tweaked at the same time?

-------snip---------

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Which cap are we talking about? I'll slide the skin off of mine and
see what it has in it. The pic in the manual almost looks like a
wet tant. Those weren't real commonly used.
-ls-

"pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:

yeah, tantalum innards leaking out occurred to me but it sure looked like solder.
what you say makes more sense. i never looked up tantalum construction but i understand they are electrolytic. i will replace for sure.
i need to look more but the board pic in the service manual does not show tantalum. they appear to be axials of some sort. is this common?
i would like to not replace with tantalums. is there a suggested replacement?

thanks for info on .2 pot. the 465M is 0.0 i'll have to read about the 465B version.
thanks, phil

--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@... wrote:

Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace that tant
anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it.
And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM pot
for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary.
-ls-





"pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:

i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...

i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...

i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some
adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead
on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i
tweaked at the same time?

-------snip---------

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Phil,
If I recall correctly, the 465B has a dual rate horizontal position control to give finer resolution when the sweep is magnified. This can seem like play in the control.

--John Gord

the horizontal position pot is wonky. lots of play. i've seen this before on the 465M. i guess 35yrs of use takes it's toll.

the horizontal position pot is wonky. lots of play. i've seen this before on the 465M. i guess 35yrs of use takes it's toll.

Hi,

you might know more than I do, but I have not seen any reference that the 5D10 can actually display a 100x readout coded probe.
The only 5000 series scopes which can do this are the 5440 and the 5441 in my humble opinion.

The 5116 is so rare I have never seen any offered in Europe, so I cannot comment on that.
On the 3-color display: Have you verified the 5D10's serial number yet, as per Brian's previous hint?

Also, the 5A48 manual available at is helpful.
The schematics in Section 03-15 on page 26 are key to understand the 10x / 100x readout function.

On the 5D10, you are right - that digitizer shall be able to work with 5A22N and similar diff., amps.
Tektronix even promoted this combination as you know already. Isn't that great?

If you really are into the 5D10, has the service manual as well as for the mentioned 5441/5440.
I have no affiliation with Dave; I am just a satisfied customer.

Your postings remind me of that box that is still waiting for me, under the over next lab desk...

Cheers,

Magnus

yeah, tantalum innards leaking out occurred to me but it sure looked like solder.
what you say makes more sense. i never looked up tantalum construction but i understand they are electrolytic. i will replace for sure.
i need to look more but the board pic in the service manual does not show tantalum. they appear to be axials of some sort. is this common?
i would like to not replace with tantalums. is there a suggested replacement?

thanks for info on .2 pot. the 465M is 0.0 i'll have to read about the 465B version.
thanks, phil

--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@... wrote:

Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace that tant
anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it.
And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM pot
for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary.
-ls-





"pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:

i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...

i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...

i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some
adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead
on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i
tweaked at the same time?

-------snip---------

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace that tant
anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it.
And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM pot
for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary.
-ls-





"pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:

i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...

i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...

i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some
adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead
on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i
tweaked at the same time?

-------snip---------