I actually forgot I have a DE-5000 lol. I had to look it up and it recognized it. That is what I use at home. In the lab I use the Reed R5001. Both are great.
Regarding utilizing social media, perhaps it is a generational thing. I'm making an assumption here, but I'd wager I'm probably younger than most in this group. Dave Jones and the EEVBlog were some of my first resources for getting into electronics. There are a lot of great EE YouTubers. But yes, just like anything on the internet, you have to be mindful of your sources and cross-reference.
-Frank
|
This is certainly beating a dead horse ? by now...
I have the DER-EE DE-5000. It seemed really cool, but I've never needed to reach for it, and it's collecting dust right now.
I do lots of repairs using the GME 236, a copy of the CapAnalyzer 88A. The GME works very well in analyzing electrolytic ESR, likely Tantalum as well. It's usually the lower voltage radial caps that more often fail, especially on aged equipment with high hours on it.
Some models of gear are unlucky and will more often need a full recap, others aren't so bad. One must be careful with YouTube video content and social media. They can be a replacement for critical thinking in many cases nowdays
|
If it helps further, there is also an old school method to measure ESR quite accurately using a known series sense resistor and a decent 5.5 or 6.5 digit DVM that can measure AC Vrms voltage up to about 100kHz. By measuring the voltages accurately around the sense resistor it is possible to calculate the capacitance and ESR of the capacitor at various frequencies up to about 100kHz. For critical testing of small, low ESR caps I'd expect this old method to beat modern LCR/ESR meters like the DE-5000. However, it is quite a clunky and slow method. I semi automated it using GPIB and a Windows app written in VB. Prior to this I did it using Excel or Quick Basic.
I've also used the Analog Discovery 2 to measure ESR with great results. It gives a swept result for ESR and capacitance from (say) 10Hz to well over 100kHz if required. For rapid testing, it is going to be difficult to beat the convenience of modern meters like the DE-5000 though. I'm quite tempted to buy one but I'll probably stick with the AD2 for a while longer. I rarely use the AC DVM method these days even though it can be very accurate and it also allows an external dc bias to be added to the capacitor if required. This can be quite educational when measuring small SMD class 2 ceramic capacitors where the capacitance changes a lot with dc bias.
|
This is a good point actually. I learned a few things about ESR in this thread or brushed up on some concepts I hadn't considered in a while. I bet the OP is thinking "alls I wanted was an ESR meter recommendation!" lol.
-Frank
|
This is pretty much my train of thought on the subject as well. Look at all the info that is horse traded back and forth in such a thread. Even some of the experienced guys might learn a new tidbit here and there. If we cut every semi-related subject out there will end up being very little traffic and an extinct group before long.--EricSent from my Galaxy
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message --------From: "Sigur?ur ?sgeirsson via groups.io" <siggi@...> Date: 9/16/24 4:10 PM (GMT-06:00) To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [TekScopes] ESR tester advice On Sat, Sep 14, 2024 at 5:53?PM Roy Thistle via groups.io <roy.thistle@...> wrote:> And IMO... it's a kind of spamming.> Especially since there is already a lot of 'talk' about these in previous> posts.> And extra especially because there is a whole groups.io group dedicated> to ESR testers.>Imma going to respectfully disagree with your point of view here. Whileit's true that it's perhaps redundant - in terms of the raw theory ofinformation - to rehash this question, it has significant value in morehuman, social terms.IMHO some of the most rewarding threads on this forum start with "I boughtthis very cool, curious thing. Is it broken, how do I point it?", followedby some edumacation from "those who know".If the only topics we ever discuss in this forum are the nitty-gritty ofthe most esoteric Tek test equipment issues, and if anyone asking a n00bquestion is immediately burned to a nub, then ultimately this group willweed down to only those people who have the wherewithal to not as n00bquestions. IMHO that'd be a net loss to the community of test gear nerdsand this forum - the bug is really easy to catch, but equally easy to"cure".Also, nobody in this day and age cares about "bandwidth" for an emailthread, and if YOU don't care for the question or the subject, then mutethe thread. We have technology well beyond the 80s that will do it in asingle keystroke, learn it!
|
On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:07 AM, Frank Mashockie wrote:
IMSAI guy puts out great content whether he likes Tek scopes or not. I'm not
sure what your point is.
Okay, fair enough... one man's beauty, is another's excuse for another drink. My point, is all and only... and just my opinion...there is no implication on general value, if someone prefers chocolate over vanilla? But, I'm sort of on the record here, about, my opinion of YouTube content creators in general... at least at the moment. Agreed. I'd say... the basement floor here isn't in danger of shifting upwards. But the acquisition wasn't motivated by a yearning to 'grow up' to be just like The Guy. I'm not saying that anyone else's was... or wasn't... I'm just opining. Which... IMO...is what forums are for, when matters of fact, are not in dispute. -- Roy Thistle
|
On Sat, Sep 14, 2024 at 5:53?PM Roy Thistle via groups.io <roy.thistle= [email protected]> wrote: And IMO... it's a kind of spamming.
Especially since there is already a lot of 'talk' about these in previous
posts.
And extra especially because there is a whole groups.io group dedicated
to ESR testers.
Imma going to respectfully disagree with your point of view here. While it's true that it's perhaps redundant - in terms of the raw theory of information - to rehash this question, it has significant value in more human, social terms. IMHO some of the most rewarding threads on this forum start with "I bought this very cool, curious thing. Is it broken, how do I point it?", followed by some edumacation from "those who know". If the only topics we ever discuss in this forum are the nitty-gritty of the most esoteric Tek test equipment issues, and if anyone asking a n00b question is immediately burned to a nub, then ultimately this group will weed down to only those people who have the wherewithal to not as n00b questions. IMHO that'd be a net loss to the community of test gear nerds and this forum - the bug is really easy to catch, but equally easy to "cure". Also, nobody in this day and age cares about "bandwidth" for an email thread, and if YOU don't care for the question or the subject, then mute the thread. We have technology well beyond the 80s that will do it in a single keystroke, learn it!
|
Bonsoir, ESR causes power dissipation, I ripple RMS exp 2 * ESR.
The internal electrolyte hot spot temperature is raised by the dissipated power, so life is shortened and thermal runaway is possible.
Thus the ESR measurement is normal at two ripple frequencies
2X mains for FW rectifiers, 100 or 120 Hz
SMPS switch frequency, usually between 20....200 kHz
The rated temperatures ( 85, 105, 135 degrees C) of lytic is for a 2000 hrs service at rated ripple currents and ambient surface temperatures.
After 2000 hrs th¨¦ ESR Can increase and capacity decrease by 20-50%.
Hope that this is of interest
Enjoy,
Jon
|
On 16 Sept 2024 12:10 pm, Frank Mashockie wrote: I do not condone recapping everything. That can be especially true with some instruments. Some of my HP instruments from the '70s and '80s use capacitors specially built to HP's specifications by Sprague. You can't replace some of those with consumer capacitors and expect the instrument to work correctly. Fortunately those caps are long lived. I have seldom had to replace any of those caps, and when I do they they are tested identical replacements from my HP boneyard. Which I why I'd love to get my hands on an older LCR bridge. Preferably one with a meter for charging voltage. Some, such as my rebuilt EICO 950B, use an eye tube instead of a meter, but with practice it does the job. -- Dale H. Cook, GR/HP/Tek Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
|
IMSAI guy puts out great content whether he likes Tek scopes or not. I'm not sure what your point is. Any old Tek gear is going to 'hold down the basement floor'. Everyone in this group probably has tek gear holding down the floor. Thats why we are here.
|
One only has to consider positive neutron flow. Negative neutron flow doesn't .. uh.. count.
DaveD
KC0WJN
Thanks for all the fish.
==============================
All spelling mistakes are the responsibilty of the reader (Rick Renz, STK, ca. 1994)
==============================
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Sep 16, 2024, at 12:41, Harvey White via groups.io <madyn@...> wrote:
?You forgot the polarity of the neutron flow.
Harvey
On 9/16/2024 12:39 PM, Tom Lee wrote:
He states a bit later that ESR does depend on frequency, so his wording was a bit inconsistent. But his later statement is correct -- ESR depends on frequency in general, sometimes dramatically, depending on the type of dielectric, as well as on the voltage, temperature, neutron flux and local pizza density.
-- Cheers
Tom
On 9/16/2024 9:02 AM, Frank Mashockie wrote:
"ESR is constant with frequency, D is not since it is a ratio of capacitive reactance to resistance and Xc is dependent on frequency"
Can you explain what you mean by ESR not being dependent on frequency? That doesn't seem right to me. You can easily test this by using a LCR meter and measuring the ESR at different frequency test values (100Hz up to 100kHz). You'll see that the ESR values change. I would assume that is why a test frequency (100kHz) is usually specified for reported ESR values.
-Frank
|
On Sun, Sep 15, 2024 at 08:40 PM, Frank Mashockie wrote:
I saw IMSAI guy use one of these to test a cap
The Guy, according to his YouTube content, doesn't even like older Tek Scopes. He's a retired HP 'physicist become engineering manager' ... with his own opinions... just like I've got mine. Beware of YouTube content creators, churning content. IMO lots of people copy them. IMO... it's don't do as they do, until you think it through. And when you do... you often can find a better way... other than collecting a lot of obsolete stuff to hold down the basement floor. Often that stuff you see in their videos, is on Ebay, the next day. Pays for all the modern stuff you see in the background. -- Roy Thistle
|
Yes I agree with you Roy! My point was I've always looked at this group as a resource for info that you most likely cannot find anywhere else. And therefore, more generic topics (like ESR testers) should be discussed elsewhere. There's tons of resources on them. You don't need ESR meters specific to Tek gear. And now we've gone on about defining ESR and not even answering the original OP's question. Which btw, I recommended the Reed 5001 as a good affordable LCR tester with ESR measuring capability.
|
On Sun, Sep 15, 2024 at 08:40 PM, Frank Mashockie wrote:
It is a topic that can be easily searched outside this group.
It's a topic that can be easily searched in this group too. There is over 2800 messages, about... at least "ESR" Isn't that enough, for an OT post? ... on a forum, ostensibly about 'old' Tek scopes? Anyway, that's my opinion of it. As I previously posted... there is an entire group, on groups.io, dedicated to ESR meters. -- Roy Thistle
|
ESR by definition is a resistance in series with a capacitance. I was referring to this basic definition. In actual capacitors the effective resistance can depend on frequency due to effects of the dielectric, but I was describing a basic definition as opposed to stating the property as dissipation factor, which is a ratio of resistance to reactance so must change with frequency. Of course the variation in effective resistance of the dielectric would also affect dissipation factor. Which ever way the measurement is stated the frequency is important.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 9/16/2024 9:39 AM, Tom Lee wrote: He states a bit later that ESR does depend on frequency, so his wording was a bit inconsistent. But his later statement is correct -- ESR depends on frequency in general, sometimes dramatically, depending on the type of dielectric, as well as on the voltage, temperature, neutron flux and local pizza density.
-- Cheers
Tom
On 9/16/2024 9:02 AM, Frank Mashockie wrote:
"ESR is constant with frequency, D is not since it is a ratio of capacitive reactance to resistance and Xc is dependent on frequency"
Can you explain what you mean by ESR not being dependent on frequency?? That doesn't seem right to me.? You can easily test this by using a LCR meter and measuring the ESR at different frequency test values (100Hz up to 100kHz).? You'll see that the ESR values change. I would assume that is why a test frequency (100kHz) is usually specified for reported ESR values.
-Frank
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
SKCC 19998
|
You forgot the polarity of the neutron flow.
Harvey
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 9/16/2024 12:39 PM, Tom Lee wrote: He states a bit later that ESR does depend on frequency, so his wording was a bit inconsistent. But his later statement is correct --
ESR depends on frequency in general, sometimes dramatically, depending on the type of dielectric, as well as on the voltage, temperature, neutron flux and local pizza density.
-- Cheers
Tom
On 9/16/2024 9:02 AM, Frank Mashockie wrote:
"ESR is constant with frequency, D is not since it is a ratio of capacitive reactance to resistance and Xc is dependent on frequency"
Can you explain what you mean by ESR not being dependent on frequency?? That doesn't seem right to me.? You can easily test this by using a LCR meter and measuring the ESR at different frequency test values (100Hz up to 100kHz).? You'll see that the ESR values change.? I would assume that is why a test frequency (100kHz) is usually specified for reported ESR values.
-Frank
|
He states a bit later that ESR does depend on frequency, so his wording was a bit inconsistent. But his later statement is correct -- ESR depends on frequency in general, sometimes dramatically, depending on the type of dielectric, as well as on the voltage, temperature, neutron flux and local pizza density.
-- Cheers
Tom
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 9/16/2024 9:02 AM, Frank Mashockie wrote:
"ESR is constant with frequency, D is not since it is a ratio of capacitive reactance to resistance and Xc is dependent on frequency"
Can you explain what you mean by ESR not being dependent on frequency? That doesn't seem right to me. You can easily test this by using a LCR meter and measuring the ESR at different frequency test values (100Hz up to 100kHz). You'll see that the ESR values change. I would assume that is why a test frequency (100kHz) is usually specified for reported ESR values.
-Frank
|
I agree with Jon to some extent. I am not a fan of throwing the parts cannon at electrical test equipment. I do not condone recapping everything. Especially for someone like me who learns from repair. You won't learn how to troubleshoot doing this practice - might help you brush up on your solder skills though.
That being said, I do find bad caps in Tektronix and HP gear quite frequently. And in-circuit testers have been helpful to me in identifying those caps. I use a Reed R5001 LCR meter. It is definitely not the most expensive one out there, but it isn't the cheapest. But it works great and I believe it will catch any cap that any other LCR meter would. But as I stated before, testing for capacitance and ESR in-circuit or out-of-circuit will not catch them all. Especially those caps that operate at higher voltages. Which I why I'd love to get my hands on an older LCR bridge. Preferably one with a meter for charging voltage.
-Frank
|
"ESR is constant with frequency, D is not since it is a ratio of capacitive reactance to resistance and Xc is dependent on frequency"
Can you explain what you mean by ESR not being dependent on frequency? That doesn't seem right to me. You can easily test this by using a LCR meter and measuring the ESR at different frequency test values (100Hz up to 100kHz). You'll see that the ESR values change. I would assume that is why a test frequency (100kHz) is usually specified for reported ESR values.
-Frank
|
Re: FOUND: broken Tektronix WM490f (to 140GHz) and/or WM490d (to 170GHz) mixer(s)
Hello Edward,
Thanks for these informations.
Best regards
Eric
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Le 15/09/2024 01:20, Edward Prest a ¨¦crit : MSS30-148-B10B for the 140GHz project.
MADS or MA4E1317 and others for lower frequencies. There is a wide choice for under 60G.
You can't use antiparallel schottkys with 492s.
|
Frank Mashockie
Jean-Paul
Dale H. Cook