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Re: 2 dumb questions
jcastanton
Mathias,
The AM502, 7A22 for 7000 and 5A22N for 5000 look as if they are the same differential amp packaged differently. Many Ebay sellers are unwilling to ship overseas because of the extra paperwork. If European Tek buyers were to establish a US transhipment point through this group, the problem could be solved. --- In TekScopes@y..., "Matthias Urban" <richter_mu@h...> wrote: I am also a newcomer to the community. I bought my first TEK inseptember. I needed a differential amplifier for triboelectric cable noisemeasurements and an oscilloscope for it.I did a quite extensive research about the TM500 series and am now owner ofa TM503 mainframe with an AM502 differential amplifier plug-in and a 10MHz, 2 channel SC503 oscilloscope plug-in. All the components are in mintcondition and I am very happy with my choice. I know that many of you wouldhave chosen the 7A22 differential amplifier with a 7K mainframe for thejob but the dimensions and weight of the 7K Series made me desist from thatthought. The specifications of the AM502 are apparently very similar.prices on e-bay www.vaxxine.com/phil/scopes/plugin$.htm and several shops andcannot share your perception about the TM506. There will always bebargains but generally the condition and the demand of a unit determines itsprice. I could be that the demand for the smaller power supply mainframes isbecause people like me need to do a specific job with this equipment ratherthan putting together as many instruments as possible in one frame.80 MHz (SC504). For ultimate portability there exists the TM515, ahardcase power supply mainframe. Some have high power compartments and forced aircooling. multimeters, etc.) unless you really need an all-in-one solution for field work.this series and I get water in my mouth when I see the e-bay auctions in theUS. Thanks for any hints. Perhaps the european members or people shippingoverseas can give good advise?the 5000 series oscilloscopes with their plugins. The difference between theTM500 and TM5000is the GPIB (IEEE 488.1 - 1987) compatibility. TM5000series frames accept TM 500 and/or TM5000 series plug-ins.December. Now I answers tohave whichTM504'sare probably obvious to you guys but not to me. but$75+S&H)?are paying less than $100 for TM506's (of which I got one for 5000 Seriescan'toscilloscope? If not, then why is the 5000 series so popular? I figure |
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Re: "J" Plugin
Stan or Patricia Griffiths
Don:
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Are you sure that you are not the guy I have been looking for to take over restoration of all of the 4000 Series products I have here? That part of Tek history is in danger of being lost forever unless someone who knows that stuff is willing to step forward and restore some of it for history and perhaps a museum . . . I have several pieces that need a new, loving home . . . Stan w7ni@... donlcramer@... wrote: Hi Dean, |
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Re: 2 dumb questions
jcastanton
The 5000 series scopes are simple and inexpensive and are very
useful. The low speed ones include normal, single and dual beam storage, all with large screens. There is a good selection of plugins, aimed towards lab work. In particular single and dual channel differential amps. My kids used a 5000 with a differential amp to make an ECG for a school project. A 5S14N plugin turns a 5000 storage scope into a 1GHz sampler. The 5440 sells today for peanuts but is a useful general purpose 50MHz scope with readout and again has a big screen. If my 5440 is up to the job I would always use it instead of a 7000 because it is lighter and more compact to carry around and has a bigger screen. There is at least one 5000 plugin which is a shell in which to build your own device. --- In TekScopes@y..., "Lynn Lewis" <mrzuzu@j...> wrote: I never owned anything made by Tektronix in my life until December.Now I haveto which are probably obvious to you guys but not to me.TM504's but are paying less than $100 for TM506's (of which I got one for$75+S&H)? 5000 Series oscilloscope? If not, then why is the 5000 series so popular? Ican't figure |
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Re: "J" Plugin
Don Black
Hi Everyone,
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I've previously posted an article on storage tubes originally published in 1953, I suspect it was Hughes technology but not certain. It can be seen at <> Don Black. donlcramer@... wrote: Just to add from Pete Keller's book, "The Cathode-Ray Tube Technology, |
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Re: CT501 for a TM500-seried power module
Don,
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There is a Lemo USA Inc., somewhere in Santa Rosa, Ca. I do not think there is any manufacturing there, that must be a Swiss variation on the theme of Tekintag (Tektronix International AG). They have reps and you can buy those connectors, not as cheaply as drawing them from engineering stock, but they are available. Ah, those days when there was access to engineering stock at a rich company. When I was with Siemens, you just write down what you want, on any old piece of paper and stock room will get it for you. If it is not a stock item, they 'll go out and get it; it was not theirs to ask why do you want it, theirs was to get it. It was perfectly acceptable to lab management that you wanted to see the part, on an outside chance that it might be used some day. It is funny that the older version of connector for probe power supply was also Swiss. Those 3 pin connectors were made by W.W. Fisher, which is also incorporated and does manufacturing in Switzerland. I believe that by now Lemo absorbed Fisher. I have a wall plug power supply for a probe, +/- 12 V, that ends with 3 pin Fisher connector and then there is an adapter, 3 pin Fisher to 4 pin Lemo. By time I got that supply there was no probe to go with it, so I do not know what it was for. I use it as a general purpose power supply. Regards Miroslav Pokorni ----- Original Message -----
From: <donlcramer@...> To: <TekScopes@...> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 11:49 PM Subject: Re: [TekScopes] CT501 for a TM500-seried power module I believe the manufacturer of the 4 pin plug Dean refers to is LEMO inwatch) and gold contact pins. Pulling on the outer shell activated the latchingpanel burn-in racks as the panel bulk drive connector. Expensive connector, butelectronics store! |
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Re: "J" Plugin
Lynn Lewis
Now that you mention it (and I thought about it earlier but I don;t remember
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enough to hold an intelligent conversation) we were given the analogy that the screen was like a multitude of small capacitors that were charged by the electron beam and discharged by the erase pulse. It's been a while but I think the erase pulse was 800cps (we didn't call them Hertz then) and the amplitude determined the persistency. Sounds like a cross between a CRT and LCD, doesn't it? -----Original Message-----
From: donlcramer@... [mailto:donlcramer@...] Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 3:56 PM To: TekScopes@... Subject: Re: [TekScopes] "J" Plugin Lynn, What you describe is also how liquid crystal displays work, except the LCD material is what rotates the light. The latter is controlled by an applied voltage, with the LCD material sandwiched between two glass plates with transparent electrodes. On the outside of the plates are laminated polarizers. An LCD pixel is an electrical version of your mechanical dimmer. Don Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: TekScopes-unsubscribe@... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
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Re: "J" Plugin
Lynn Lewis
There was actually a storage tube prior to 1961. The first F-4 Phantom II
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was flown in 1958 and the radar scope was a DVST (Delayed Vision Storage Tube). The image would pretty much stay on the screen indefinitely unless an erase pulse was applied. I don't know if this is the same technology that is in a storage oscilloscope but maybe some of you retired Tek guys can say. Does the storage oscilloscope need an erase pulse? Just as an aside, the brightness adjustment on that radar scope was non-electronic. The screen had two Polaroid lenses in front of it and you adjusted the brightness by turning one of the lenses. If you've never seen that, find an old pair of Polaroid sun glasses and take the lenses out. When the polarization of the two is 90 degrees apart, you can't see through them. -----Original Message-----
From: Miroslav Pokorni [mailto:mpokorni2000@...] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 4:02 AM To: TekScopes@... Subject: Re: [TekScopes] "J" Plugin Stan, I that book that you look down at, 'Winning with People', there was a mention of a guy by name Bob Anderson, who was hired from Hughes in 1959 (page 214, right hand column). He started at CRT department, working on general CRTs, but by late 1961 there was a storage tube, and Bob Anderson was associated with it. The storage CRT enabled 564 to be brought to market in 1963. Maybe that is a link between Hughes and Tektronix storage CRT, that we speculated about a while back. Regards Miroslav Pokorni ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan or Patricia Griffiths" <w7ni@...> To: <TekScopes@...> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 10:25 PM Subject: Re: [TekScopes] "J" Plugin > Hi Don, > > No, I don't think we ever really went into this stuff before and I am sure you > have the attention of a few hundred very interested guys . . . More below . . . > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: TekScopes-unsubscribe@... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
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Re: "J" Plugin
Sorry for the confusion Lynn. I was referring to your description of the
mechanical polarizer lens used to dim the display. Rotating one of the lens to control the light attenuation is analogous to LCD displays, where the "lens" (polarizers) are fixed, and the LCD material does the rotating. The first part of your email covered the storage tube. I'm not too familiar with how a storage tube works but there must be trapped charge in there someplace, so I can see how the tiny capacitor analogy works for that. Don |
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"Write-through" dates
I checked with my copy of Pete Keller's book, "The Cathode-Ray Tube
Technology, History and Applications". He says write-through capability was added to the T4014 in 1978. And, "Color write-through was a further improvement in 1981 that presented the overwritten information in a different color than the stored information (which is green)." Battlestar Galactica originally aired in Sept 1978, so the 4081 must have been out the same year as the T4014, and thus my tour of Wilsonville must have been around mid 1978. Don |
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Re: "J" Plugin
Lynn,
What you describe is also how liquid crystal displays work, except the LCD material is what rotates the light. The latter is controlled by an applied voltage, with the LCD material sandwiched between two glass plates with transparent electrodes. On the outside of the plates are laminated polarizers. An LCD pixel is an electrical version of your mechanical dimmer. Don |
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Re: "J" Plugin
Just to add from Pete Keller's book, "The Cathode-Ray Tube Technology,
History and Applications", he refers to the "Anderson bi-stable, direct-view, storage tube developed by Robert Anderson of Tektronix...and first introduced commercially in the Model 564 storage oscilloscope in 1963." Prior to that he mentions "the Hughes Products type 6498 Memotron (1956) was the first CRT desgined specifically for storage of oscilloscope waveforms and was used in their models 103 and 104 storage oscilloscopes." Trying to remember what Stan said earlier, sounds like he might have the earliest Tek storage scope eval sample (the Tek scope with the Hughes tube)? |
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Re: "J" Plugin
Hi Dean,
I think the two color DVST came later (post 1976-77). When I first saw the 4081, it was green on green, as were the Battlestar Galactica shots (sorry, don't have either the pilot movie or the series on tape to see). I can't confirm which later Tek terminal models had the two color feature. I believe they retrofited the color write-through to the 4081 workstation, but don't remember if it become a 4082 or some such other product. A catalog from that period should provide the answer. Either way, the stored image was always green. The write-through feature (mono or two color) was not present on the older/more common DVST (direct view storage) displays as used on the 4051 desktop computer, or the 4010, 4012 et al (getty fuzzy on numbers again...) dumb graphics terminals. With those you had to manually erase the screen at some point--sort of like an etch-a-sketch. Or you couldn't see anything new that was written as the screen filled up. Erase could happen under software control also. The write-through enhancement answered the need to provide an animation capability. Write-through with color was a further development; I believe to provide better contrast between stored and non-stored images. I don't know too much about that technology. I have the Pete Keller CRT history book--I will see if mention is made of that technology in there. I would assume it's discussed, though I haven't read the book entirely yet. I was always fascinated by watching the DVST write. Modern high info content displays are so boring by comparison--except perhaps color plasma. Of course, I prefer vacuum tubes and steam engines also. Speaking of display technologies for Wilsonville applications.... By around 1980, everything from Wilsonville seemed to be going to 19" diagonals (CAD graphics). I remember the saying was in Display Research (part of Tek Labs) that "Wilsonville wasn't interested in any new display technology that couldn't be expanded to 19". I worked on the color shutter, which wasn't so valuable on the bigger screens but was particularly suited to small area, high resolution applications. It was a successful technology as applied to the color TDS series digital scopes, some of which are still in production. In the early 80's, a 1240 style logic analyzer was to use the limited color version (red/green/yellow), but when it wasn't quite ready, the product group had commissioned a clever two color CRT instead. The shutter was also adapted to 3D displays, which spun out of Tek "kinda", but I don't know much about that. Matrix EL was another Tek developed display technology which would eventually stretch to 19", though from Planar Systems years after we split off from Tek. As far as I know, we are the only company to produce EL panels that large (for DEC terminals, who sold them principally to the financial market, but at a markup so large that volume never built up). That size was unusual however, as our volume has, and remains, with panels smaller than 10.4" diagonal. Electon beam addressed EL (an "EL CRT") was also promising for it's high resolution, but never made it to commercial application as far as I know. My recollection was it never made it past 5" diagonal prior to my departure from Tek in '83. I also helped complete a summer student's fascinating "LED-o-scope" project, which involved a spinning mirror with a vertical array of yellow LEDs. The LEDs scrolled out the image one vertical line at a time as the mirror rotated. I believe there was also an additional short column of red and green LEDs to show limited color capability. Definitely wasn't scaleable to 19", but was a fun 6" (?) demo. The CRT light valve (electron beam addressed LCD) was also an interesting Tek Labs technology being pursued while I was there (at that time, monochrome). Don't know where this went, but think of any LCD projector today and you'll get the idea (though the latter use matrix LCDs, not electron beam addressed). In the end, Wilsonville moved away from DVST to raster scan (as memory prices tumbled), and so they stayed until the end. Wups. Rambled once again. Don PS: I've enjoy your postings Dean. All very interesting! |
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Re: CT501 for a TM500-seried power module
I believe the manufacturer of the 4 pin plug Dean refers to is LEMO in
Switzerland. Beautifully machined metal parts (reminds me of a fine watch) and gold contact pins. Pulling on the outer shell activated the latching prongs. When Planar split off from Tek, I designed them into our flat panel burn-in racks as the panel bulk drive connector. Expensive connector, but very reliable. Another super example of why I was so wowed by the Tek engineering stock. Couldn't find anything like that at any hobby electronics store! |
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Re: "J" Plugin
From: deanhuster [mailto:dhuster@...]I think there were two versions, with the 4052/4 version accounting for the increased speed and taking advantage of non-store which IIRC did not exist on the 4051. Definitely no orange write-thru. I used one for several years. The LANDER I played with erased the screen between views. You're right about the plotters. 4662 and 4663. Somebody was looking for an interface a while back; they must have meant software, because it was just RS-232 or GPIB. If you can spit ASCII, you can talk to a 466x. Just have to know what to say. Which I don't, sorry. Anybody got a manual for whoever that was? Regards, Dave Wise |
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CT501 for a TM500-seried power module
deanhuster
Just off the subject of the compatability of 5000 vs. TM500 plug-ins,
I can't remember if I mentioned my modification of a 5CT1N curve tracer to work in a TM500 power module. After careful research and a little design work, I made just such a beast, good for those who don't have a 7K or 5K mainframe that can accept a 5CT1N or 7CT1N. I added the necessary circuits on a perfboard mounted above the main circuit board to provide the necessary supplies normally provided by the 5K mainframe and to add the necessary output buffers to give a decent 0.1v/div sensitivity for the attached scope. A 4-pin front panel connector (I'm getting old and forgot the manufacturer -- the same connector as used on the DM501 temperature/voltage probe) provided the output for the scope. I replaced the neon lamps with LEDs. And if anyone has the real need to do such a modification (WHAT!!??! SCREW UP A PRODUCT MADE BY TEKTRONIX??!!?), I think I still have all the documentation needed to accomplish such a feat. Maybe I need to start a Web site for all this weird junk I have floating around that's useless except for just a few people. Tek could have easily modified the layout for a 5CT1N to do just that, but it's possible that they didn't because either they didn't think of it or it would have cut into the sales of their other semiconductor curve tracers. Same category as the 2-hole portable 7K service scope. Dean |
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Re: 2 dumb questions
deanhuster
The TM500 and 5000 plug-ins are compatible only in their mechanical
housing. The card keys will prevent you from swapping the plug-ins. 5000 plugins are fully dependent upon the mainframe for their regulated power. Most of the power supply regulation is within a TM500 plug-in, only the raw dc, main filter caps and pass transistors residing in the "power module". Only the TM504 and TM506 had a high-power compartment. The only reason for the high-power compartment was for the power supplies so that you could get the full 1a from them, e.g., PS503A. I've not seen any other plug-ins, including the LA501/WR501, that required that compartment. Only the TM515 and TM506 had the cooling fans (I think all the TM5000's do) -- the TM506 just because it had lots of compartments and the TM515 because it had no other ventilation. The DMMs for the TM500? Of course! The DM501 was one of the most accurate DMMs available anywhere (including Fluke or hp) for the price with ¡À0.1% accuracy on dc and fantastic frequency response on ac. The DM501A increased this accuracy to ¡À0.05%. Tek also had better THD analysis capability than any other manufacturer with the AA501/SG505 and the FG504 has never been surpassed in frequency range. A lot of folks, including ultraTeklovers, considered the TM500 series to be lousy stuff. I thought it was some of the finest general purpose test equipment made and you sure could pack a lot of power into a small package on your bench. The TM515 was perfect for a travelling oscilloscope cal package, which is why I had one in the Oklahoma City Service Center ... doing on-site contract calibration for 3M in Weatherford. I would still have preferred a TM506 for those jobs since my package consisted of a DM501, PG506, TG501, SG502, SG503 and SG504. By the way, my TM515 power module was modified. From the factory, the power switch is a rocker switch on the rear, very inconvenient when the package is being used on the bench. I used the power switch actuation rod from (I think) a 455, 465M or something and drilled a hole in the front bezel just above where the top of the plug-ins installed, ran it back between the plastic outer cover and metal inner cover to the rear where it came out and actuated a replacement switch from a 7000 series. Worked great. Dean |
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Re: "J" Plugin
deanhuster
Don, I remember the little thrusters and dust kick-up. I thought it
was the 4054 that had the write-thru and didn't remember about the 4081 (glad to finally get that model number!). The write-thru was orange as I recall. The tape drives were the DC300's as I recall. The plotter was likely a 4662 (8.5" x 11") with electrostatic hold- down with RS-232 or GPIB interface. The 4663 I think was another plotter in a larger format (11" x 17"). Dean |
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TM500/5000 and 5000 series scopes
wshawlee2
The main reason tek made the low bandwidth 5100 series (also
identifed as D10/D11/D12, etc.) was to service the biomedical/research community, that needed high sensitivity and low speed, and often had small budgets. the storage units sold especially well into that market, and are still in very high demand today, incredibly. The big CRT is also a plus for many users, although I think the over-all product quality is not as good as the 7K series. the slow frames also worked great for audio (don't forget, HP had scopes like the 120 that were only 500KHz) and could be configured with some pretty interesting differential plug ins. They had no fans (although it certainly would have helped cool the super hot deflection stages), and were thus favored for audio wiork, as they were quiet. The scopes are really made from the modular OEM display and a reconfigured TM503 cage to produce a scope. what is really puzzling is why tek ever made the 5400 series, high speed with on screen display. It clearly robbed sales from the 7603. It would probably have been better off with a less costly 7603 version. NO, the TM500/5000 plug ins DO NOT work in the frames, but may fit by accident if the lock outs are missing from the scope's connectors. the test cables are also NOT interchangeable. The 5100 and 5400's cannot share plug ins universally. the high speed plug ins (5x3n/5x4n) fit ONLY the high speed frames, power supplies are different. The frame standardizer fits ONLY the 5400, so it is hard to set the low speed plug ins and frames to a universally swappable setting. I agree that the TM503/504's sell best because of portability, and often people have only a few plug ins anyway. The TM506 is quite massive, and very heavy, so it's not an ideal bench instrument, it's really meant to be a rack thing. all for now, walter |
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Re: 2 dumb questions
I am also a newcomer to the community. I bought my first TEK in september.
I needed a differential amplifier for triboelectric cable noise measurements and an oscilloscope for it. Budget was tight and the system had to be "portable". Before buying I did a quite extensive research about the TM500 series and am now owner of a TM503 mainframe with an AM502 differential amplifier plug-in and a 10 MHz, 2 channel SC503 oscilloscope plug-in. All the components are in mint condition and I am very happy with my choice. I know that many of you would have chosen the 7A22 differential amplifier with a 7K mainframe for the job but the dimensions and weight of the 7K Series made me desist from that thought. The specifications of the AM502 are apparently very similar. Regarding the price differences you mention, I have compared prices on e-bay www.vaxxine.com/phil/scopes/plugin$.htm and several shops and cannot share your perception about the TM506. There will always be bargains but generally the condition and the demand of a unit determines its price. I could be that the demand for the smaller power supply mainframes is because people like me need to do a specific job with this equipment rather than putting together as many instruments as possible in one frame. I learned that the TM500 series includes oscilloscope plugins up to 80 MHz (SC504). For ultimate portability there exists the TM515, a hardcase power supply mainframe. Some have high power compartments and forced air cooling. Some of the plugins make less sense then others nowadays (i.e. multimeters, etc.) unless you really need an all-in-one solution for field work. Here in Europe it is not easy to find good and cheap plugins for this series and I get water in my mouth when I see the e-bay auctions in the US. Thanks for any hints. Perhaps the european members or people shipping overseas can give good advise? Another thing: there is the TM5000 series, not to be confused with the 5000 series oscilloscopes with their plugins. The difference between the TM500 and TM5000is the GPIB (IEEE 488.1 - 1987) compatibility. TM5000 series frames accept TM 500 and/or TM5000 series plug-ins. Matthias Urban (a german in Spain) -----Urspr???ngliche Nachricht----- Von: "Lynn Lewis" <mrzuzu@...> An: "TekScopes@yahoogroups. com" <TekScopes@...> Gesendet: viernes, 11 de enero de 2002 0:13 Betreff: [TekScopes] 2 dumb questions I never owned anything made by Tektronix in my life until December. Now Iwhich are probably obvious to you guys but not to me.but are paying less than $100 for TM506's (of which I got one for $75+S&H)?Series oscilloscope? If not, then why is the 5000 series so popular? I can't |
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Re: 2 dumb questions
Stan or Patricia Griffiths
Hi Lynn,
Comments below: Lynn Lewis wrote: I never owned anything made by Tektronix in my life until December. Now II don't even have a good guess on this one. I'm with you. I think the best buy seems to be TM506's if the prices you quoted are accurate. 2. Will the modules that go into a TM5-whatever also work in a 5000 SeriesNo If not, then why is the 5000 series so popular?I guess I don't think they are really that "popular". By the way, there is also a 5400 series that is good for 50 MHz and those are considered by some to be part of the "5000 series". I can'tWell, maybe they are working in audio and need the sensitivity that some of the 5000 series plugin provide . . . Stan w7ni@... |
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