It is a dual-rate pot. You turn it just past where you want to be and when you back up it's a slower rate. You can feel it in the amount of torque you have to apply. If you can figure a way to get it in there, Deoxit D5 will help clean it up. Same stuff will also probably help the trigger view switch. A little exercise will certainly help as well. -ls- "pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:
thanks,
the wonky pots are hopeless unless there is something i don't
understand about coarse vs fine adjustment but i doubt it.
1st pass i will try to get them out and deconstruct without breaking
them, if possible. they are still semi-useable with care.
there is something definitely wrong with trigger view. i was
triggering on calibration square wave and still seeing a flat line.
probably something simple.
funny, i have been reading about the tantalum nightmare and considered
myself lucky there were none in the 465M that needed a major PS
rebuild...but here i am with tants in the 465B...lucky it made its
presence knows with smoke and moaning and goo. :-)
phil
--- In TekScopes@..., "Dave B" <dave@...> wrote:
On 25 Sep 2012 at 0:52, TekScopes@... wrote:
Posted by: "pdxareaid"
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:48 pm ((PDT))
i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all
previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...
i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen
rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full
intensity.) i
looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three. i poked it and it fell
off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some adjustments and
things
were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead on the outside of
a
tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i tweaked at the
same
time?
so since it appeared it was not going to catch fire this time, i
let
it run and things stayed nice and stable. i turned it off and
tested
all of the transistors in the area of the smoking tantalum (this
is at
rear of sweep logic board btw). they all appear ok.
man, you people with socketed transistors have it easy. try
testing a
transistor on a 465M. you have to desolder it...no sockets!
(except
about four i found that probably should not have been there lol)
no
sockets is part of the "ruggedized for the military" modification.
so, things are working fine with a few mechanical probs. i found
a
loose transistor preventing the x1 light on chnl 1, stuck it back
in
and that prob is fixed.
the horizontal position pot is wonky. lots of play. i've seen
this
before on the 465M. i guess 35yrs of use takes it's toll.
the main intensity pot is dirty or toast. i will probably attack
it
soon.
but careful fiddling and it gets you where you want to be.
the B delay pot knob is offset to 0.2 when bottomed out. and it
shows
on the trace. i think this was previous owners way of correcting
for
improper registration on the trace. likely a simple calibration
tweak
will fix it and i'll rezero that pot knob.
this is a significant one:
the A trig view only shows a flat line but everything is
triggering
properly (including B sweep stuff). possibly a loose jumper wire
etc.
i'll chase it soon.
since it was staying up (for 2 hours now) i took PS readings at
test
points.
voltage VDC, ripple mV p-p
supply voltage spec ripple spec
+110 108.2 106.7 to 113.3 16 20
+55 54.9 54.62 to 55.39 3 4
+15 15.00 14.75 to 15.26 1 2
+5 5.01 4.92 to 5.09 1 2
-8 -8.01 -7.86 to -8.14 1 2
not too shabby. i may take a look at getting +110 closer to 110.
i
am still nervous about ps filter caps because my 465M worked for a
few
hours then tore itself apart with failed caps and exploding
transistors. i'll keep an eye on it for a while. it would be
nice
not to have to recap this thing. (i know about reforming but i'd
rather recap and be sure)
all the other bells and whistles seem to be working x10-mag etc.
and
timing and vertical deflection look right on.
So, not a very exciting fix but so far i have a nice working 465B
but
i'm quite sure why :-o phil
Well done!
The Tant's with what looked like a blob of solder, are failed parts.
That blob, was molten Tantalum Metal ejected from the part when it
failed. You got lucky clearing the short by knocking off that blob.
Best the part be replaced for a long life from now on.
Not sure about the A-Trig View issue. I presume you had a signal for it
to trigger on, and that was selected. But maybe just a dirty siwitch
contact, or something related in the vertical logic. For now, it sounds
like you've a 99% working instrument, and a massive grin no doubt.
Dirty pots, just "Exersize them" back and forth with the power off, and
they will then improve with use. Some can be stripped apart and
cleaned, but very fiddly to do, and needing care not to damage the track
etc, plus finding out what the correct lube to put back in there is, is
not easy. I'm guessing silicone grease, but I don't know for sure.
Best Regards.
Dave B.
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
|
Re: Interesting account of HP's attempt to compete with the 7000 series
Yeah, I did look it up, but only in the midst of doing about 5 other tasks. ?I still wonder why I've never heard of it before; it's unusual I come across a non-technical word that I've never seen before.
-Dave
From: "ejp286" To: TekScopes@... Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 7:19:38 PM Subject: [TekScopes] Re: Interesting account of HP's attempt to compete with the 7000 series
?
It's in the dictionary: 'discreetly cautious'. 'Wary' is 'marked by keen caution'. Not the same thing.
Interesting article, although the author has some stylistic issues. The attempt to attach one adjective to every single person's name gets pretty irritating. The attempt to turn experience over the lifecyle of one product cycle into management science doesn't really impress either: part of it is obvious and part of it is specific to the product, the circumstances, etc.
EJP
--- In TekScopes@..., d.seiter@... wrote:
>
>
>
> I have never heard the term "chary" before, and thought it was a typo until it appeared more than once.??
>
>
>
> Now?? that I see it's??real, is ??it a regional term, or maybe it's gone out of fashion ??? Why wou ld one use it instead of, say, wary?
>
>
>
> -Dave
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> From: "Miroslav Pokorni"
> To: TekScopes@...
> Cc: "John Miles"
> Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 10:24:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Interesting account of HP's attempt to compete with the 7000 series
>
> ??
>
>
>
>
> " review would be with two guys notoriously chary about poor engineering detail execution ". That is probably why hp, unlike Tektronix, did not have any overloaded/discolored resistors or electrolytics running on only few volts of voltage margin.
>
> Miroslav Pokorni
>
> On 9/21/2012 5:38 PM, John Miles wrote:
>
> ??
>
>
>
> Chuck House talks about where the HP logic-analyzer product line came from -- a classic solution-in-search-of-a-problem scenario, but one where it turned out that there actually was a problem to be solved.?? (Warning: very long.)
>
> ??
>
>
>
> "We'd already spent $2 million, with a burn rate that had to escalate for our next phase. We were, at best, two years from delivery. The Tek engineers told me that they had spent $34 million dollars and seven years of effort, to get to this (IEEE) show with an incomplete line. Whew!
>
> Worse, my team was having trouble debugging our own prototype scheduled for a division review in four weeks. That review would be with two guys notoriously chary about poor engineering detail execution - Packard and Hewlett, headed to Colorad! o Springs in late April. It was not hard to figure out what to do. I had to cancel Next Gen.
>
> The first problem was that I was in love with it..."
>
> -- john, KE5FX
>
> ?
>
|
ah, i see parts scheme now. it is all thee in service manual.
values confirmed for those tants 15uf, 20v, 20%.
can i use any type of cap that meets those specs or is there something magical about tants? i know virtually nothing about them.
phil
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In TekScopes@..., "pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:
i took a pic. i'll send it to your personal email. i see know easy way to attach a pic to these replies.
i have 3 brown blob "dipped" tants for C7196, C7197 and C7288.
i forget exactly which of these was smoking (and probably leaking). I see no scars. but it was definitely one of those 3.
the pdf i have shows them as axial at the rear of the sweep logic board near the 3 white jumpers. maybe i am taking the board pic too literally. I have not fully parsed the service manual yet (this all happened so fast) but it seems i don't have the parts descriptions necessary in that manual to determine voltage/capacitance values for replacements. i may not have looked hard enough.
pic on the way.
thanks, phil
--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@ wrote:
Which cap are we talking about? I'll slide the skin off of mine and
see what it has in it. The pic in the manual almost looks like a
wet tant. Those weren't real commonly used.
-ls-
"pdxareaid" <public_email@> wrote:
yeah, tantalum innards leaking out occurred to me but it sure looked like solder.
what you say makes more sense. i never looked up tantalum construction but i understand they are electrolytic. i will replace for sure.
i need to look more but the board pic in the service manual does not show tantalum. they appear to be axials of some sort. is this common?
i would like to not replace with tantalums. is there a suggested replacement?
thanks for info on .2 pot. the 465M is 0.0 i'll have to read about the 465B version.
thanks, phil
--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@ wrote:
Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace that tant
anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it.
And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM pot
for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary.
-ls-
"pdxareaid" <public_email@> wrote:
i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...
i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some
adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead
on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i
tweaked at the same time?
-------snip---------
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
|
thanks,
the wonky pots are hopeless unless there is something i don't understand about coarse vs fine adjustment but i doubt it.
1st pass i will try to get them out and deconstruct without breaking them, if possible. they are still semi-useable with care.
there is something definitely wrong with trigger view. i was triggering on calibration square wave and still seeing a flat line. probably something simple.
funny, i have been reading about the tantalum nightmare and considered myself lucky there were none in the 465M that needed a major PS rebuild...but here i am with tants in the 465B...lucky it made its presence knows with smoke and moaning and goo. :-)
phil
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In TekScopes@..., "Dave B" <dave@...> wrote:
On 25 Sep 2012 at 0:52, TekScopes@... wrote:
Posted by: "pdxareaid"
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:48 pm ((PDT))
i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...
i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.) i
looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three. i poked it and it fell
off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some adjustments and things
were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead on the outside of a
tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i tweaked at the same
time?
so since it appeared it was not going to catch fire this time, i let
it run and things stayed nice and stable. i turned it off and tested
all of the transistors in the area of the smoking tantalum (this is at
rear of sweep logic board btw). they all appear ok.
man, you people with socketed transistors have it easy. try testing a
transistor on a 465M. you have to desolder it...no sockets! (except
about four i found that probably should not have been there lol) no
sockets is part of the "ruggedized for the military" modification.
so, things are working fine with a few mechanical probs. i found a
loose transistor preventing the x1 light on chnl 1, stuck it back in
and that prob is fixed.
the horizontal position pot is wonky. lots of play. i've seen this
before on the 465M. i guess 35yrs of use takes it's toll.
the main intensity pot is dirty or toast. i will probably attack it
soon.
but careful fiddling and it gets you where you want to be.
the B delay pot knob is offset to 0.2 when bottomed out. and it shows
on the trace. i think this was previous owners way of correcting for
improper registration on the trace. likely a simple calibration tweak
will fix it and i'll rezero that pot knob.
this is a significant one:
the A trig view only shows a flat line but everything is triggering
properly (including B sweep stuff). possibly a loose jumper wire etc.
i'll chase it soon.
since it was staying up (for 2 hours now) i took PS readings at test
points.
voltage VDC, ripple mV p-p
supply voltage spec ripple spec
+110 108.2 106.7 to 113.3 16 20
+55 54.9 54.62 to 55.39 3 4
+15 15.00 14.75 to 15.26 1 2
+5 5.01 4.92 to 5.09 1 2
-8 -8.01 -7.86 to -8.14 1 2
not too shabby. i may take a look at getting +110 closer to 110. i
am still nervous about ps filter caps because my 465M worked for a few
hours then tore itself apart with failed caps and exploding
transistors. i'll keep an eye on it for a while. it would be nice
not to have to recap this thing. (i know about reforming but i'd
rather recap and be sure)
all the other bells and whistles seem to be working x10-mag etc. and
timing and vertical deflection look right on.
So, not a very exciting fix but so far i have a nice working 465B but
i'm quite sure why :-o phil
Well done!
The Tant's with what looked like a blob of solder, are failed parts.
That blob, was molten Tantalum Metal ejected from the part when it
failed. You got lucky clearing the short by knocking off that blob.
Best the part be replaced for a long life from now on.
Not sure about the A-Trig View issue. I presume you had a signal for it
to trigger on, and that was selected. But maybe just a dirty siwitch
contact, or something related in the vertical logic. For now, it sounds
like you've a 99% working instrument, and a massive grin no doubt.
Dirty pots, just "Exersize them" back and forth with the power off, and
they will then improve with use. Some can be stripped apart and
cleaned, but very fiddly to do, and needing care not to damage the track
etc, plus finding out what the correct lube to put back in there is, is
not easy. I'm guessing silicone grease, but I don't know for sure.
Best Regards.
Dave B.
|
Is it just me or is the service manual for a 2221a scope next to impossible to find? I have been searching google all evening and have only found the 2221 service manuals for the 60 MHz scope and not the 2221a 100 MHz scope.
|
On 25 Sep 2012 at 0:52, TekScopes@... wrote: Posted by: "pdxareaid"
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:48 pm ((PDT))
i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...
i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.) i
looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three. i poked it and it fell
off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some adjustments and things
were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead on the outside of a
tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i tweaked at the same
time?
so since it appeared it was not going to catch fire this time, i let
it run and things stayed nice and stable. i turned it off and tested
all of the transistors in the area of the smoking tantalum (this is at
rear of sweep logic board btw). they all appear ok.
man, you people with socketed transistors have it easy. try testing a
transistor on a 465M. you have to desolder it...no sockets! (except
about four i found that probably should not have been there lol) no
sockets is part of the "ruggedized for the military" modification.
so, things are working fine with a few mechanical probs. i found a
loose transistor preventing the x1 light on chnl 1, stuck it back in
and that prob is fixed.
the horizontal position pot is wonky. lots of play. i've seen this
before on the 465M. i guess 35yrs of use takes it's toll.
the main intensity pot is dirty or toast. i will probably attack it
soon.
but careful fiddling and it gets you where you want to be.
the B delay pot knob is offset to 0.2 when bottomed out. and it shows
on the trace. i think this was previous owners way of correcting for
improper registration on the trace. likely a simple calibration tweak
will fix it and i'll rezero that pot knob.
this is a significant one:
the A trig view only shows a flat line but everything is triggering
properly (including B sweep stuff). possibly a loose jumper wire etc.
i'll chase it soon.
since it was staying up (for 2 hours now) i took PS readings at test
points.
voltage VDC, ripple mV p-p
supply voltage spec ripple spec
+110 108.2 106.7 to 113.3 16 20
+55 54.9 54.62 to 55.39 3 4
+15 15.00 14.75 to 15.26 1 2
+5 5.01 4.92 to 5.09 1 2
-8 -8.01 -7.86 to -8.14 1 2
not too shabby. i may take a look at getting +110 closer to 110. i
am still nervous about ps filter caps because my 465M worked for a few
hours then tore itself apart with failed caps and exploding
transistors. i'll keep an eye on it for a while. it would be nice
not to have to recap this thing. (i know about reforming but i'd
rather recap and be sure)
all the other bells and whistles seem to be working x10-mag etc. and
timing and vertical deflection look right on.
So, not a very exciting fix but so far i have a nice working 465B but
i'm quite sure why :-o phil
Well done! The Tant's with what looked like a blob of solder, are failed parts. That blob, was molten Tantalum Metal ejected from the part when it failed. You got lucky clearing the short by knocking off that blob. Best the part be replaced for a long life from now on. Not sure about the A-Trig View issue. I presume you had a signal for it to trigger on, and that was selected. But maybe just a dirty siwitch contact, or something related in the vertical logic. For now, it sounds like you've a 99% working instrument, and a massive grin no doubt. Dirty pots, just "Exersize them" back and forth with the power off, and they will then improve with use. Some can be stripped apart and cleaned, but very fiddly to do, and needing care not to damage the track etc, plus finding out what the correct lube to put back in there is, is not easy. I'm guessing silicone grease, but I don't know for sure. Best Regards. Dave B.
|
Re: Interesting account of HP's attempt to compete with the 7000 series
It's in the dictionary: 'discreetly cautious'. 'Wary' is 'marked by keen caution'. Not the same thing.
Interesting article, although the author has some stylistic issues. The attempt to attach one adjective to every single person's name gets pretty irritating. The attempt to turn experience over the lifecyle of one product cycle into management science doesn't really impress either: part of it is obvious and part of it is specific to the product, the circumstances, etc.
EJP
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In TekScopes@..., d.seiter@... wrote:
I have never heard the term "chary" before, and thought it was a typo until it appeared more than once.??
Now?? that I see it's??real, is ??it a regional term, or maybe it's gone out of fashion ??? Why wou ld one use it instead of, say, wary?
-Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Miroslav Pokorni" <mpokorni@...>
To: TekScopes@...
Cc: "John Miles" <jmiles@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 10:24:29 PM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Interesting account of HP's attempt to compete with the 7000 series
??
" review would be with two guys notoriously chary about poor engineering detail execution ". That is probably why hp, unlike Tektronix, did not have any overloaded/discolored resistors or electrolytics running on only few volts of voltage margin.
Miroslav Pokorni
On 9/21/2012 5:38 PM, John Miles wrote:
??
Chuck House talks about where the HP logic-analyzer product line came from -- a classic solution-in-search-of-a-problem scenario, but one where it turned out that there actually was a problem to be solved.?? (Warning: very long.)
??
"We'd already spent $2 million, with a burn rate that had to escalate for our next phase. We were, at best, two years from delivery. The Tek engineers told me that they had spent $34 million dollars and seven years of effort, to get to this (IEEE) show with an incomplete line. Whew!
Worse, my team was having trouble debugging our own prototype scheduled for a division review in four weeks. That review would be with two guys notoriously chary about poor engineering detail execution - Packard and Hewlett, headed to Colorad! o Springs in late April. It was not hard to figure out what to do. I had to cancel Next Gen.
The first problem was that I was in love with it..."
-- john, KE5FX
?
|
yep thats them.
is there something more reliable to replace them with or should i stick to tants?
phil
yeah, can't complain :-)
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@... wrote:
If we're looking right above the power switch, I have 3 ea 15 uF @ 20 V
tants. Looks like they are decoupling for +/- 8 & +5, so 20 V
wasn't too close. I dunno. They die.
Even with a couple bad tants, you got one helluva deal. That scope is
my favorite 'go to' portable.
-ls-
larrys@... wrote:
Which cap are we talking about? I'll slide the skin off of mine and
see what it has in it. The pic in the manual almost looks like a
wet tant. Those weren't real commonly used.
-ls-
"pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:
yeah, tantalum innards leaking out occurred to me but it sure looked like solder.
what you say makes more sense. i never looked up tantalum construction but i understand they are electrolytic. i will replace for sure.
i need to look more but the board pic in the service manual does not show tantalum. they appear to be axials of some sort. is this common?
i would like to not replace with tantalums. is there a suggested replacement?
thanks for info on .2 pot. the 465M is 0.0 i'll have to read about the 465B version.
thanks, phil
--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@ wrote:
Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace that tant
anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it.
And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM pot
for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary.
-ls-
"pdxareaid" <public_email@> wrote:
i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...
i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some
adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead
on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i
tweaked at the same time?
-------snip---------
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
|
i took a pic. i'll send it to your personal email. i see know easy way to attach a pic to these replies.
i have 3 brown blob "dipped" tants for C7196, C7197 and C7288.
i forget exactly which of these was smoking (and probably leaking). I see no scars. but it was definitely one of those 3.
the pdf i have shows them as axial at the rear of the sweep logic board near the 3 white jumpers. maybe i am taking the board pic too literally. I have not fully parsed the service manual yet (this all happened so fast) but it seems i don't have the parts descriptions necessary in that manual to determine voltage/capacitance values for replacements. i may not have looked hard enough.
pic on the way.
thanks, phil
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@... wrote:
Which cap are we talking about? I'll slide the skin off of mine and
see what it has in it. The pic in the manual almost looks like a
wet tant. Those weren't real commonly used.
-ls-
"pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:
yeah, tantalum innards leaking out occurred to me but it sure looked like solder.
what you say makes more sense. i never looked up tantalum construction but i understand they are electrolytic. i will replace for sure.
i need to look more but the board pic in the service manual does not show tantalum. they appear to be axials of some sort. is this common?
i would like to not replace with tantalums. is there a suggested replacement?
thanks for info on .2 pot. the 465M is 0.0 i'll have to read about the 465B version.
thanks, phil
--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@ wrote:
Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace that tant
anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it.
And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM pot
for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary.
-ls-
"pdxareaid" <public_email@> wrote:
i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...
i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some
adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead
on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i
tweaked at the same time?
-------snip---------
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
|
If we're looking right above the power switch, I have 3 ea 15 uF @ 20 V
tants. Looks like they are decoupling for +/- 8 & +5, so 20 V
wasn't too close. I dunno. They die.
Even with a couple bad tants, you got one helluva deal. That scope is
my favorite 'go to' portable.
-ls-
larrys@... wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Which cap are we talking about? I'll slide the skin off of mine and
see what it has in it. The pic in the manual almost looks like a
wet tant. Those weren't real commonly used.
-ls-
"pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:
yeah, tantalum innards leaking out occurred to me but it sure looked like solder.
what you say makes more sense. i never looked up tantalum construction but i understand they are electrolytic. i will replace for sure.
i need to look more but the board pic in the service manual does not show tantalum. they appear to be axials of some sort. is this common?
i would like to not replace with tantalums. is there a suggested replacement?
thanks for info on .2 pot. the 465M is 0.0 i'll have to read about the 465B version.
thanks, phil
--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@... wrote:
Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace that tant
anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it.
And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM pot
for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary.
-ls-
"pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:
i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...
i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some
adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead
on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i
tweaked at the same time?
-------snip---------
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
|
thanks...i'll check it out. it does not seem right but i will revisit.
phil
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In TekScopes@..., "johncharlesgord" <johngord@...> wrote:
Phil,
If I recall correctly, the 465B has a dual rate horizontal position control to give finer resolution when the sweep is magnified. This can seem like play in the control.
--John Gord
the horizontal position pot is wonky. lots of play. i've seen this before on the 465M. i guess 35yrs of use takes it's toll.
|
Phil,
If I recall correctly, the 465B has a dual rate horizontal position control to give finer resolution when the sweep is magnified. This can seem like play in the control.
--John Gord
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
the horizontal position pot is wonky. lots of play. i've seen this before on the 465M. i guess 35yrs of use takes it's toll.
|
Re: Can you display the left plugin using a 5D10?
For the record- tried resistor to the ring connection, was only able to get 10x functionality on the 5D10.
Jamie
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In TekScopes@..., "magnustoelle" <magnustoelle@...> wrote:
Hi,
you might know more than I do, but I have not seen any reference that the 5D10 can actually display a 100x readout coded probe.
The only 5000 series scopes which can do this are the 5440 and the 5441 in my humble opinion.
The 5116 is so rare I have never seen any offered in Europe, so I cannot comment on that.
On the 3-color display: Have you verified the 5D10's serial number yet, as per Brian's previous hint?
Also, the 5A48 manual available at is helpful.
The schematics in Section 03-15 on page 26 are key to understand the 10x / 100x readout function.
On the 5D10, you are right - that digitizer shall be able to work with 5A22N and similar diff., amps.
Tektronix even promoted this combination as you know already. Isn't that great?
If you really are into the 5D10, has the service manual as well as for the mentioned 5441/5440.
I have no affiliation with Dave; I am just a satisfied customer.
Your postings remind me of that box that is still waiting for me, under the over next lab desk...
Cheers,
Magnus
|
Which cap are we talking about? I'll slide the skin off of mine and see what it has in it. The pic in the manual almost looks like a wet tant. Those weren't real commonly used. -ls- "pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:
yeah, tantalum innards leaking out occurred to me but it sure looked like solder.
what you say makes more sense. i never looked up tantalum construction but i understand they are electrolytic. i will replace for sure.
i need to look more but the board pic in the service manual does not show tantalum. they appear to be axials of some sort. is this common?
i would like to not replace with tantalums. is there a suggested replacement?
thanks for info on .2 pot. the 465M is 0.0 i'll have to read about the 465B version.
thanks, phil
--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@... wrote:
Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace that tant
anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it.
And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM pot
for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary.
-ls-
"pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:
i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...
i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some
adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead
on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i
tweaked at the same time?
-------snip---------
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
|
yeah, tantalum innards leaking out occurred to me but it sure looked like solder.
what you say makes more sense. i never looked up tantalum construction but i understand they are electrolytic. i will replace for sure.
i need to look more but the board pic in the service manual does not show tantalum. they appear to be axials of some sort. is this common?
i would like to not replace with tantalums. is there a suggested replacement?
thanks for info on .2 pot. the 465M is 0.0 i'll have to read about the 465B version.
thanks, phil
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In TekScopes@..., larrys@... wrote:
Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace that tant
anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it.
And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM pot
for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary.
-ls-
"pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:
i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...
i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some
adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead
on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i
tweaked at the same time?
-------snip---------
|
Re: Can you display the left plugin using a 5D10?
Good tip on the manuals from artek- my friend (the owner of the 5116 & 5D10 I'm working on) has them and they've been helpful in understanding the scope and plugins better. I'm sure when the time comes for real troubleshooting they'll be even more useful.
I'll try the resistor trick on the 5D10 and report back when I get a chance. It's really not a deal breaker, just a helpful feature.
The three color display with the 5116 and 5D10 does work nicely. I assume something is wrong with either the scope or the plugin as I've still been unable to display the left slot on-screen. All in good time- too many projects! Meanwhile the digital capture function of the 5d10 is useful for determining relative times and voltages and it's plenty fast for audio work. That's the most important thing for me.
If I had an RF problem on an audio amp I'd certainly use a more advanced (and faster) tool but I believe even the most basic of early 5000 series scopes are excellent for audio work. It's a shame they're so often overlooked in favor of other scopes.
Jamie
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In TekScopes@..., "magnustoelle" <magnustoelle@...> wrote:
Hi,
you might know more than I do, but I have not seen any reference that the 5D10 can actually display a 100x readout coded probe.
The only 5000 series scopes which can do this are the 5440 and the 5441 in my humble opinion.
The 5116 is so rare I have never seen any offered in Europe, so I cannot comment on that.
On the 3-color display: Have you verified the 5D10's serial number yet, as per Brian's previous hint?
Also, the 5A48 manual available at is helpful.
The schematics in Section 03-15 on page 26 are key to understand the 10x / 100x readout function.
On the 5D10, you are right - that digitizer shall be able to work with 5A22N and similar diff., amps.
Tektronix even promoted this combination as you know already. Isn't that great?
If you really are into the 5D10, has the service manual as well as for the mentioned 5441/5440.
I have no affiliation with Dave; I am just a satisfied customer.
Your postings remind me of that box that is still waiting for me, under the over next lab desk...
Cheers,
Magnus
|
Good job you found it, may have taken a while- good eye. Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry
From: larrys@...
Sender: TekScopes@...
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 21:00:07 -0400 (EDT) To: <TekScopes@...> ReplyTo: TekScopes@...
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Re: WooHoo! 465B
?
Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace that tant
anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it.
And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM pot
for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary.
-ls-
"pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:
>
> i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
> responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
>
> i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
> needed some attention...
>
> i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
> than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
> i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
> noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
> i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some
> adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead
> on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i
> tweaked at the same time?
-------snip---------
|
Phil -- just a couple things -- you should probably replace that tant anyway. What looks like solder probably came from inside it. And the good news: .2 is the normal minimum on the 10-turn DTM pot for this guy and a plain 465. No tweakage necessary. -ls- "pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:
i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous
responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just
needed some attention...
i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather
than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and
noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some
adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead
on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i
tweaked at the same time?
-------snip---------
|
that is:
So, not a very exciting fix but so far i have a nice working 465B but i'm NOT quite
sure why :-o
ok...i'm done. :-)
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In TekScopes@..., "pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:
i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just needed some attention...
i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i tweaked at the same time?
so since it appeared it was not going to catch fire this time, i let it run and things stayed nice and stable.
i turned it off and tested all of the transistors in the area of the smoking tantalum (this is at rear of sweep logic board btw).
they all appear ok.
man, you people with socketed transistors have it easy. try testing a transistor on a 465M. you have to desolder it...no sockets! (except about four i found that probably should not have been there lol) no sockets is part of the "ruggedized for the military" modification.
so, things are working fine with a few mechanical probs. i found a loose transistor preventing the x1 light on chnl 1, stuck it back in and that prob is fixed.
the horizontal position pot is wonky. lots of play. i've seen this before on the 465M. i guess 35yrs of use takes it's toll.
the main intensity pot is dirty or toast. i will probably attack it soon. but careful fiddling and it gets you where you want to be.
the B delay pot knob is offset to 0.2 when bottomed out. and it shows on the trace. i think this was previous owners way of correcting for improper registration on the trace. likely a simple calibration tweak will fix it and i'll rezero that pot knob.
this is a significant one:
the A trig view only shows a flat line but everything is triggering properly (including B sweep stuff).
possibly a loose jumper wire etc. i'll chase it soon.
since it was staying up (for 2 hours now) i took PS readings at test points.
voltage VDC, ripple mV p-p
supply voltage spec ripple spec
+110 108.2 106.7 to 113.3 16 20
+55 54.9 54.62 to 55.39 3 4
+15 15.00 14.75 to 15.26 1 2
+5 5.01 4.92 to 5.09 1 2
-8 -8.01 -7.86 to -8.14 1 2
not too shabby. i may take a look at getting +110 closer to 110. i am still nervous about ps filter caps because my 465M worked for a few hours then tore itself apart with failed caps and exploding transistors. i'll keep an eye on it for a while. it would be nice not to have to recap this thing. (i know about reforming but i'd rather recap and be sure)
all the other bells and whistles seem to be working x10-mag etc. and timing and vertical deflection look right on.
So, not a very exciting fix but so far i have a nice working 465B but i'm quite sure why :-o
phil
--- In TekScopes@..., "pdxareaid" <public_email@> wrote:
I just picked up a 465B off Craigslist. Came with 10x probe.
the ad:
"Unit was working, then stored for 3 or 4 years. When I turned it on recently, it died. There's a beam, but no sweep. It worked well before that. I was hoping someone would want to fix it and put it to good use. Free."
Nice guy...engineer...just did not want to deal with it.
He mentioned electrical burning smell when turning on.
I got it home and spent 10 minutes with it...opened it up and turned it on. Burning smell coming from PS section I think. Whole screen glows off and on, no trace to speak of.
It is in excellent shape otherwise, calibration stickers all over it.
I am thinking PS filter caps to start, then tantalum and electrolytic search after that.
Phil
|
sorry about the voltage ripple table. it looked a lot prettier when i created it.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In TekScopes@..., "pdxareaid" <public_email@...> wrote:
i'm not sure of the best way to post this followup for all previous responders see. so, i'm replying to my original post...
i spent some quality time with the new toy today. i guess it just needed some attention...
i turned it on and found i was getting one spot on the screen rather than a massive glow (i kept it de-focused as it was full intensity.)
i looked around at the tantalums that had one smoking yesterday and noticed a solder bead on one of the three.
i poked it and it fell off...and a trace slowly snapped back. some adjustments and things were sweeping! how the heck does a solder bead on the outside of a tantalum cause this? was there a cold solder i tweaked at the same time?
so since it appeared it was not going to catch fire this time, i let it run and things stayed nice and stable.
i turned it off and tested all of the transistors in the area of the smoking tantalum (this is at rear of sweep logic board btw).
they all appear ok.
man, you people with socketed transistors have it easy. try testing a transistor on a 465M. you have to desolder it...no sockets! (except about four i found that probably should not have been there lol) no sockets is part of the "ruggedized for the military" modification.
so, things are working fine with a few mechanical probs. i found a loose transistor preventing the x1 light on chnl 1, stuck it back in and that prob is fixed.
the horizontal position pot is wonky. lots of play. i've seen this before on the 465M. i guess 35yrs of use takes it's toll.
the main intensity pot is dirty or toast. i will probably attack it soon. but careful fiddling and it gets you where you want to be.
the B delay pot knob is offset to 0.2 when bottomed out. and it shows on the trace. i think this was previous owners way of correcting for improper registration on the trace. likely a simple calibration tweak will fix it and i'll rezero that pot knob.
this is a significant one:
the A trig view only shows a flat line but everything is triggering properly (including B sweep stuff).
possibly a loose jumper wire etc. i'll chase it soon.
since it was staying up (for 2 hours now) i took PS readings at test points.
voltage VDC, ripple mV p-p
supply voltage spec ripple spec
+110 108.2 106.7 to 113.3 16 20
+55 54.9 54.62 to 55.39 3 4
+15 15.00 14.75 to 15.26 1 2
+5 5.01 4.92 to 5.09 1 2
-8 -8.01 -7.86 to -8.14 1 2
not too shabby. i may take a look at getting +110 closer to 110. i am still nervous about ps filter caps because my 465M worked for a few hours then tore itself apart with failed caps and exploding transistors. i'll keep an eye on it for a while. it would be nice not to have to recap this thing. (i know about reforming but i'd rather recap and be sure)
all the other bells and whistles seem to be working x10-mag etc. and timing and vertical deflection look right on.
So, not a very exciting fix but so far i have a nice working 465B but i'm quite sure why :-o
phil
--- In TekScopes@..., "pdxareaid" <public_email@> wrote:
I just picked up a 465B off Craigslist. Came with 10x probe.
the ad:
"Unit was working, then stored for 3 or 4 years. When I turned it on recently, it died. There's a beam, but no sweep. It worked well before that. I was hoping someone would want to fix it and put it to good use. Free."
Nice guy...engineer...just did not want to deal with it.
He mentioned electrical burning smell when turning on.
I got it home and spent 10 minutes with it...opened it up and turned it on. Burning smell coming from PS section I think. Whole screen glows off and on, no trace to speak of.
It is in excellent shape otherwise, calibration stickers all over it.
I am thinking PS filter caps to start, then tantalum and electrolytic search after that.
Phil
|
