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Tek PS503A problem

 

I just acquired a PS503a module, very clean. Upon first powerup there are two items. First. the CM7220 incandescent lamp in the positive side appears to be burnt out, resistance checks show about 62 ohms on the negative (good) lamp and over 10K on the positive lamp. Looks like a bear to get at to replace, essentially tearing down most of the front panel. Any words of wisdom here or just be slow and careful.
Second, both the positive and negative side adjust only to +/- 15 volts at full cw rotation. The dual tracking control operates properly as described in the manual. The module recognizes being in a high or low power slot, however the operation is the same. I am wondering if a prior owner may have been working in OpAmps and internally adjusted R45/145 down so as not to inadvertently exceed max supply voltage for these parts. Or there might be a common problem in the reference supply, I have not yet checked any board level voltages. Anyone have any thoughts? I do have an extender cable, to work on the module.
Thanks,
gwerl


2465 Calibration Completed but boot still fails

 

After I successfully completed CAL 01-04, I still get a failure on boot-up. This is what it said on the scope:
ALL 00 PASS XX<F77F>

So it passes everything but fails. Huh? I found in the service manual that this happens from a Cycle Error that must be cleared by running Exerciser 03 diagnostic routine (Page 6-16,17 in the service manual). After running that routine the error cleared! Woo Hoo! My 2465 is fixed! Thanks to everyone in this forum who patiently answered my questions and offered suggestions.


Re: 2465 Calibration

 

On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 11:21 PM, si_emi_01 wrote:


Do you have a lot of Overshoot or Undershoot on the waveforms you are
supplying it? On the other scope, what is the Rise and Fall Time? If it is too
fast, since the Impedance is High, it could cause reflections. It says the
Rise/Fall time is less than 10ns.

You are likely been bit by a Signal Integrity issue. The Signal Generator edge
is too fast. With an edge as fast as that is, it needs to be terminated into
the cable Impedance. This isn't possible in your case because the Oscilloscope
Calibration routine expects certain values to be met.

As a test you could use a 50 Ohm in-line Terminator, connect that to the
Oscilloscope Input. Set the Generator for twice the Voltage level (only below
2V to protect your load and Generator), start the test and see if the problem
goes away (as a test only). If it works it is likely caused by Undershoot or
Undershoot. If not, the problem might be somewhere else in the Signal Chain.
I have no overshoot when terminated at 50 Ohms and just a little when at 1 MOhm. So I did the whole vertical calibration using a 50 Ohm terminator plug and then just doubled the voltages from the waveform generator. That worked, although I had to tweak a couple of the voltages to eliminate the dreaded limit error. So I completed the calibration. But more on this below.


Re: Help with diagnosis of Tek 2465 Power Supply Problem

 

On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 05:39 PM, <lylejlarson@...> wrote:

1) The board layout is a nightmare. Component placement is scattered, and 90%
of the reference designators are missing in the silkscreen. So locating part
positions
is so slow and tedious, that by the time I locat the part, I've forgotten why
I was looking for it.
The cross reference table listed on 4 pages before the Schematic 9 are for this purpose.
It is pretty easy to locate components on the board and on the schematic this way.
I found the scanning quality for Tek 2467 service manual better for this purpose.
See

2) It's a complex board, conceptually. Easily one of the most challenging that
I've dealt with.
No disagreement here! I am trying to understand it and I hope I am getting getting closer.

Luca


Re: Help with diagnosis of Tek 2465 Power Supply Problem

 

How does current that initially charges C1025 flow? Is it like the following?

T1020 PIN4 -- R1020 -- C1025 -- CR1035 -- R1046 -- T1020 PIN6

This is not the only path, but seems the least resistant one. There is also a path through CR1072 and C1072, but that path will only allow C1025 to be charged to about 10V, because C1072 is about 30 times smaller than C1025.

Luca


Re: Help with diagnosis of Tek 2465 Power Supply Problem

 

On 2022-05-02 5:05 p.m., lpb612 wrote:
Thank you so much Mark.
I have replaced a few capacitors that I can tell or measure to be bad. I have not gone systematically, because of the limited supply. I have order a bunch of more generic ones to replace some other capacitors as needed. I am also ordering a desoldering gun. Without it, it is very hard to put the new capacitor back on, because of the remaining solder.
If your ordinary iron is hot enough to melt it, you can remove just about 100% of the existing solder with desoldering wick.

--Toby

Thanks again - Luca


Re: Help with diagnosis of Tek 2465 Power Supply Problem

 

Thank you so much Mark.

I have replaced a few capacitors that I can tell or measure to be bad. I have not gone systematically, because of the limited supply. I have order a bunch of more generic ones to replace some other capacitors as needed. I am also ordering a desoldering gun. Without it, it is very hard to put the new capacitor back on, because of the remaining solder.

Thanks again - Luca


Re: 7000 plugin socket side covers?

 

I almost like the idea of replacing them with modern connectors. The current "patient" is a 7514 and I don't know if it's the case with the Main Interface board in that scope, but in my 7704A, I ran into a problem with a multi-layer board for which I was not able to get a solid connection to one of the inside layers that ran from another hole to two of the pins on slots 1 and 2. I ended up having to run a separate jumper which I really didn't like but it works. if the 7514 has a multi-layer board, I'd be somewhat more hesitant to replace the connectors.

I'm still wondering of Shapeways' SLA Accura? Xtreme? 200 might work and intend to look into that. Otherwise, I'll probably opt for some extra clamping pressure that's, perhaps, similar to what the fellow did with the FR4 material. It's too thick to fit inside where the plastic guide slides over the socket but I think if it is at least as far forward as possible, it could work.

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Dutky" <jeff.dutky@...>
To: "tekscopes" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 1:13:32 PM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 7000 plugin socket side covers?
On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 09:38 AM, n4buq wrote:




Very interesting. I was unaware of that page. It gives me some hope.
Yes, I had not seen this page either, and nobody mentioned it a few weeks back
when I was asking similar questions, so it must be fairly obscure. I'm
especially interested in the possibility of replacing the connectors with
modern card edge connectors, which seems like a much more permanent solution to
the problem.

3D-printing the aligning end pieces seems much more doable that printing the
side plates. Oddly, I have some compunction about carving up the existing
connectors, even though I would be entirely replacing them in the instrument.

I don't think I understand how the first fix on that page ("Adding mechanical
support") was implemented: there doesn't appear to be space for the reinforcing
plates between the existing side plates and the guides on the back of a 7k
plug-in. The pictures are too blurry to give me a good idea of what was done,
and I found the description difficult to follow.

-- Jeff Dutky



Re: Help Needed - 547 Horizontal Timing/Trace

 

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 07:34 PM, Stephen wrote:

----
Anyways, the problem I¡¯m facing concerns the horizontal amplifier. For
starters, the trace is always moving a bit right and left. Also, it is just
impossible to adjust the timing. It¡¯s completely off even with the X1 and
X10 all the way CCW. It¡¯s still way to wide. I replaced what I found to be
out of spec, but there is still no change.
I haven¡¯t measured the 30K and 18K 8W precision resistors though¡­
Hi Stephen,

[I didn't (re)read the whole previous repair story.] Are you sure now that the sweep generator itself is not the problem? If A and B sweeps show the same problem then the problem is likely further on in the horizontal chain. To be sure you can use another scope with 10X probe to observe the waveform at the "A Sweep" front panel bus. That signal immediately follow the Miller circuit. In my 547 the sweep duration is about 10.5 ms (as should be) with amplitude about 90 V while the dead time between sweeps is about 2 ms. That's with the 547 at 1 ms/div and VAR in calibrated position, fully CW. The sweep time increases (up to 2.5X or so) when VAR is rotated CCW.
Here¡¯s a short video of a 1KHz from a Type 184. You can clearly see the
trace moving right and left, as well as the timing being off, and I can¡¯t
adjust it any further.

Any help would be appreciated.
Albert


Re: 7000 plugin socket side covers?

 

On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 09:38 AM, n4buq wrote:




Very interesting. I was unaware of that page. It gives me some hope.
Yes, I had not seen this page either, and nobody mentioned it a few weeks back when I was asking similar questions, so it must be fairly obscure. I'm especially interested in the possibility of replacing the connectors with modern card edge connectors, which seems like a much more permanent solution to the problem.

3D-printing the aligning end pieces seems much more doable that printing the side plates. Oddly, I have some compunction about carving up the existing connectors, even though I would be entirely replacing them in the instrument.

I don't think I understand how the first fix on that page ("Adding mechanical support") was implemented: there doesn't appear to be space for the reinforcing plates between the existing side plates and the guides on the back of a 7k plug-in. The pictures are too blurry to give me a good idea of what was done, and I found the description difficult to follow.

-- Jeff Dutky


Re: 7000 plugin socket side covers?

 

As a thought...

Would the covers be 3D printable with a resin type of printer? Resin
types (allegedly) have much better print resolution, but I don't know
if the prints would have sufficient strength. (I don't own that type
of printer, or I'd give it a whirl...) I can see where a bog
standard FDM 3D printer might have resolution difficulties...

David

On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 8:24 AM Joel B Walker <joelandjoyce@...> wrote:

I'm interested in hearing what can be done for this problem. I have five 7000 instruments. My most recent aquisition has the outside cover for the horizontal bay refusing to stay snapped in place. The piece looks perfect, but just won't stay snapped on. There is an article on the Tekwiki about these things, but it is geared towards the inside covers. Basically they are wedging a strip of plastic between the circuit board and the cover to hold it in place. This won't work for the outside ones.





Re: Saving 576 plots (again)

 

Since you have all of the "bits" needed with an LCD Display, it would be nice to be able to have an on-board USB Interface and application software with storage and overlays to display it on a desktop or laptop.

Imagine the ease at which devices could be compared, documented, etc...

I only wish Simmconn Labs had added that to my HP-8566 Spectrum Analyzer LCD kit.


Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Zentronics42@...
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2022 8:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Saving 576 plots (again)

John,
In putting in this effort in to a 576, retrofitting it for an LCD display rather than a CRT. A requirement for this project in my mind will be to delete the need for the HV transformer. This would open up the field significantly if a display could be fabricated as well as not need the -4kv and 200 Vdc supplies. It would extend the life time of the units significantly.

Zen

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of John Griessen
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 10:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Saving 576 plots (again)


On 5/2/22 08:30, Eric wrote:
I think in the rigol world last time I tried it the best resolution I
got on the input is 10's of mV steps. So you would be able to get
close but there might not be enough adjustment on the digital scope.
At higher price points this is less of an issue of course.

In a hypothetical. If I aligned a 576 with the built in tube. Then
took a scope and tapped the vert and Horz signals for X-Y. I would
want to do a full realignment of the circuits to the new graticule.

Your earlier idea of using an LCD screen instead of borrowing a scope screen leaves off the electrostatic CRT display and limitations of 60 Hz AC sweeping. Two ADCs are needed, one for V one for I. and some code to overlay the up and down sweeps of collector voltage, then stop acquiring til next sweep, display the curve with "graticule" scale marks and V/div, I/div labels, and make this available to output as text data, or as an image file over the USB port. The text data is easier, (less code to write), and just pipe the data to gnuplot at the computer connected to the curve tracer. The culture shock schematics can give you an example system that is similar to look at for ideas.




The HV board layout is helpful to see how the HV is divided down to record it:


Re: OT+DC was Re: [TekScopes] 2465 Calibration

 

Yup.

My first Oscilloscope was a Tektronix 551 back in 1979. It had 98 Tubes.

It had 2 parts. The Oscilloscope and a separate Power Supply. I located the Power Supply under my bench on a step stool.

They didn't put two handles on the Oscilloscope for no reason...


Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Roy Thistle
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2022 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: OT+DC was Re: [TekScopes] 2465 Calibration

On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 12:33 PM, si_emi_01 wrote:


There are always Electromagnetic fields - even gravity
To be clearer, if not somewhat pedantic, there are fields everywhere: electromagnetic, gravitational, strong weak.
Although general relativity shows light conforms to the curvature of space-time, gravity is usually only relevant to Tek when it comes to Series 500 scopes.
This is a theory of gravity your back with appreciate, if you don't verify it.

--
Roy Thistle


Re: Saving 576 plots (again)

John Griessen
 

On 5/2/22 08:55, Zentronics42@... wrote:
In putting in this effort in to a 576, retrofitting it for an LCD display rather than a CRT. A requirement for this project in my mind will be to delete the need for the HV transformer.
I think letting the 575 576 577 drift off into oblivion with repairs only, not mods is more like it.

What I'm describing is a standalone transistor and tube tester that takes 15 X 10 cm of benchtop and weighs 3 lbs and outputs tidy graphs with timestamps for simplifying sharing your test results...


Re: Saving 576 plots (again)

 

John,
In putting in this effort in to a 576, retrofitting it for an LCD display rather than a CRT. A requirement for this project in my mind will be to delete the need for the HV transformer. This would open up the field significantly if a display could be fabricated as well as not need the -4kv and 200 Vdc supplies. It would extend the life time of the units significantly.

Zen

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of John Griessen
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 10:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Saving 576 plots (again)


On 5/2/22 08:30, Eric wrote:
I think in the rigol world last time I tried it the best resolution I
got on the input is 10's of mV steps. So you would be able to get
close but there might not be enough adjustment on the digital scope.
At higher price points this is less of an issue of course.

In a hypothetical. If I aligned a 576 with the built in tube. Then
took a scope and tapped the vert and Horz signals for X-Y. I would
want to do a full realignment of the circuits to the new graticule.

Your earlier idea of using an LCD screen instead of borrowing a scope screen leaves off the electrostatic CRT display and limitations of 60 Hz AC sweeping. Two ADCs are needed, one for V one for I. and some code to overlay the up and down sweeps of collector voltage, then stop acquiring til next sweep, display the curve with "graticule" scale marks and V/div, I/div labels, and make this available to output as text data, or as an image file over the USB port. The text data is easier, (less code to write), and just pipe the data to gnuplot at the computer connected to the curve tracer. The culture shock schematics can give you an example system that is similar to look at for ideas.




The HV board layout is helpful to see how the HV is divided down to record it:


Re: Saving 576 plots (again)

John Griessen
 

On 5/2/22 08:30, Eric wrote:
I think in the rigol world last time I tried it the best
resolution I got on the input is 10's of mV steps. So you would be able to
get close but there might not be enough adjustment on the digital scope. At
higher price points this is less of an issue of course.

In a hypothetical. If I aligned a 576 with the built in tube. Then
took a scope and tapped the vert and Horz signals for X-Y. I would want to
do a full realignment of the circuits to the new graticule.

Your earlier idea of using an LCD screen instead of borrowing a scope screen leaves off the electrostatic CRT display and limitations of 60 Hz AC sweeping. Two ADCs are needed, one for V one for I. and some code to overlay the up and down sweeps of collector voltage, then stop acquiring til next sweep, display the curve with "graticule" scale marks and V/div, I/div labels, and make this available to output as text data, or as an image file over the USB port. The text data is easier, (less code to write), and just pipe the data to gnuplot at the computer connected to the curve tracer. The culture shock schematics can give you an example system that is similar to look at for ideas.




The HV board layout is helpful to see how the HV is divided down to record it:


Re: Saving 576 plots (again)

 

I second this I still need to get one of these spun up as well. But Dennis's document is fantastic.

Zen

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Jim Ford
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 9:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Saving 576 plots (again)

Since you are planning to test vacuum tubes, David, look up Dennis Tillman's excellent write-up on how to mate a curve tracer with a tube tester. If you haven't already.Jim Ford Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message --------From: David Aurora <electronics@...> Date: 5/2/22 1:35 AM (GMT-08:00) To: [email protected] Subject: [TekScopes] Saving 576 plots (again) After years of wanting one, I've finally bought a 576 which I believe is currently sitting in customs 20 minutes from my place. Like quite a few people out there I'm mainly planning to use this for measuring/matching tubes, so while I'm waiting I've been trying to think of the best way to store the plots for future reference.I've searched through this group a lot (it really seems like the best resource out there!) and I see tonnes of suggestions of how people could/might store plot data, but haven't really come across anyone definitively saying "I did it this way and it works great". Anyone out there actually had functional success with the various methods discussed (digitising outputs via USB/cheap AD converter modules, taking photos and using image to CSV converter programs/etc)?It seems like a lot of those chats wind up going off on tangents of trying to control the unit from a computer, or trying to capture the readout settings and so forth but I really can't see that stuff being worth the extra effort for my or many peoples needs. Realistically, if you can get the image on a DSO it's simple to save that plot as a CSV file and adjust scaling to match the curve tracer settings from there, the relative plot points should be plenty to work with.So yeah, I'm curious if many people have tried the various ideas suggested with any success? If not, how are people saving plots? Cameras? Tracing paper over the screen? Manually entering plot data into spreadsheets? Other?Thanks!


Re: Saving 576 plots (again)

 

Martin,
Depends highly on the digital scope. And the vertical step
resolution. I think in the rigol world last time I tried it the best
resolution I got on the input is 10's of mV steps. So you would be able to
get close but there might not be enough adjustment on the digital scope. At
higher price points this is less of an issue of course.

In a hypothetical. If I aligned a 576 with the built in tube. Then
took a scope and tapped the vert and Horz signals for X-Y. I would want to
do a full realignment of the circuits to the new graticule. Not only to
compensate for the 10 X 8 graticule but also to compensate for the scope
front end and probe loading. This would make the qualitative measurements as
accurate as possible. Under less than Ideal conditions. Unless I am missing
something?

Zen

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Martin via
groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 10:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Saving 576 plots (again)

On 2. May 2022, at 14:51, Zentronics42@... wrote:

...You will not be able to make quantitative measurement however due to
the scope graticule not being an exact match for the tube graticule.

Why? The 576 has a "ZERO" and "CAL" button, placing the dot in the
lower-left or upper-right corner of the graticule. You just have to align
the amplification and offset of the scope to match.

Of course, most scopes do not have the 10x10 but an 8x10 graticule, so you
have to do some additional math. If you intend to save it on a file and put
in on your computer you can overly any grid you like. It does not even have
to match at the beginning...

cheers
Martin


Re: Saving 576 plots (again)

 

Bonjour cher Monsieur

We have 576 and 577 for decades. ours were from local auction and Ham radio Fleas.

Typically shipping them is risky as the CRT and panel controls are easily damaged, sine they are heavy and bulky.

Few sellers are qualified to test fully or package safety for common carrier freight.

---------

All that aside, we found the lissijous type display needs a HV diff amp at the CRT V,H deflection plates.

Then a pair of ADC.

Still most digital devices and computer data acquisition cannot use the XY easily. Finally the scale factor fiber optic readouts cannot be easily acessed.

We avoided the problem by fashioning a CRT hood from an old scope camera adapter hood, then added a mask and support bracket for an iPhone. We setup the shot, place the iPhone on the mask, and set-up for a nin flash macro, perhaps 2x scale.

Result is all ambiance light is excluded, and a perfectly focused and centered image, with the iPhone coplanar to the CRT face.

Both scale factor and graticule lights are dimmed to setup the best compromise between them and the CRT traces.

We use the same technique on our 7104, 7904 as well as with 7K Spectrum Analyzer plug-ins on 7603.

Happy to send photos if of any interest.

Bon courage

Jon


Re: Saving 576 plots (again)

John Griessen
 

On 5/2/22 06:51, Zentronics42@... wrote:
At present there is not anything that can reliably capture the wave form for storage out of a 576. However a scope in X-Y mode tapping the vert and horizontal will do the trick. You will not be able to make quantitative measurement however due to the scope graticule not being an exact match for the tube graticule.
I have some information out there on rebuild and restoration of these units.
I would like the solve the tube issue permanently however this is currently above my skill level, but I am rapidly gain ground on it. I am thinking about tapping the preamp signal running that through an ADC Then possibly driving an LCD replacement screen as well as a digitized output for a 576 and 577.
This reminds me of my open hardware project electroporator. It's a pulse generator, (for low power pulses), with an ADC capturing each "shot". There's no need for a knob twister pulse generator like the 576, 575, 577 when you have a micropython based MCU driven pulse generator and data acquisition system already, the only outside parts needed would be adding more power and voltage capability.

The short pulses that are good for testing power semiconductors are already included in such a system. My electroporator system could be modified a little to make more powerful pulses, and the selection of series resistors could be a classic knob twist, or relays and code.

Culture Shock is the name of the electroporator project.

covers how to get schematics and edit them with lepton-schematic, a FOSS schematic editor available as a package on debian based linux systems. Ask me more questions if interested.

--
John Griessen -- building lab gear for biologists
Albuquerque NM blog.kitmatic.com