开云体育

Hi Reg-

What y'all need to solve the fan noise problem on the 7904 is a Type 555 mainframe! Just turn it on for a little while and when you turn it back off you won't even realize the 7904 is on! <laughing>

The 555 is my favorite scope, but it does have two very serious fans!

73

Tom AE5I

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 06:31 PM, Dennis Tillman W7pF wrote:

My apologies if I missed something important because my daily SPAM reports
stopped coming over a week ago.

No need to apologize, Dennis. On the contrary, it all stems from the work you do for us.

Raymond

Last night I noticed it had been over a week since I got the last daily list
of possible SPAM emails my ISP was holding up. I go through every one of
these daily SPAM reports I get and unblock the legitimate emails and mark
the sender as trusted. It can sometimes be a tedious job if there was a lot
of potential SPAM in that day's daily catch.
Quite a few TekScopes messages were waiting for my OK in the SPAM filter for
me to release them but I had no idea they were there since my daily notices
stopped coming over a week ago.
My ISP just reset my SPAM Filter settings and sent me a list of what has
been waiting for over a week for me to check. It was a very long list. I
just finished going through it. There were about 50 legitimate emails that I
release as legitimate.
My apologies if I missed something important because my daily SPAM reports
stopped coming over a week ago.

Dennis Tillman W7pF

For the life of me I cant remember the peace of gear that cap was it but it was a filter and VERY old and I cant forget the cap cause I was shocked at the tolerance spread as well. But even in the 576 some of the filter tolerances is +100% -10% and some of the ceramics is +80% -20%

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 05:13 PM, Roger Evans wrote:

If you are concerned about the pulse response for very fast risetimes I would
recommend the 7A29 over the 7A19. I have two 7A19s and they are very difficult
to set up for clean pulse response, you need an extender (which I don't have)
and decent non metallic tools to adjust the hairpin inductors which work
harden slightly after several attempts to adjust them. The 7A29 has a much
cleaner step response but may be getting hard to find.

The 7A29 was a much better (and newer) amplifier than the 7A19 altogether. Much has been written about that and can be found on TekWiki and other sources.

Raymond

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 04:07 PM, Eric wrote:

There are 2 fundamental differences that need to be taken in to account when
replacing “vintage” caps. And I use the term vintage loosely. One is
tolerance. In the worst case I can remember a capacitors value was +150% -%100
tolerance. The means that for a 1 uF the measured value of anything between
2.5 uF to .1 uF would be considered “in spec” old radios still amaze me
they ever worked. Now a days +-20% is the normal. The service manual will tell
you the tolerance of the filters. From memory I am guessing it is going to be
+100% to -20 % so pretty wide design tolerance on the filters.

The other important spec is the voltage rating of the cap. And here vintage
caps and modern caps differ greatly. Vintage caps were very tolerant of over
voltage especially given how tube gear warms up before the tube’s comes in
to operation the B+ will spike some times as high as 200 to 250 volts higher
then when the device is operating and can hang there for about 15-30 seconds.
This is not an issue in your 475 as it is solid state. However modern caps are
completely intolerant of over voltage so if you have the physical space it is
always good to bump up the voltage rating of the cap it wont effect anything
to replace a 63V cap with a 400V cap excepta little cost in $ maybe one or 2
and physical space it will be slightly bigger then it’s modern lower voltage
counterpart. However both are usually smaller then their vintage counter part
even doubling the voltage the modern can will be smaller physically.

I don't think anyone would have accepted caps with +150/-100% tolerance, not even electrolytics...

Any information on the inability of modern caps to withstand overvoltage more than vintage caps used to? Maybe WV was just very conservatively spec'ed?
I'd rather have known the actual max.

For (wet) Al electrolytics, choosing a spec-voltage very much higher than it's ever going to experience, has a deformation effect, so is not recommended.

Raymond

If anyone in Southern Arizona is interested, I have a 7904A
with two 7A26, 7B92A and 7B70 Plug-Ins.

Contact me off list to discuss.

Motivated Seller.

73, Dick, W1KSZ
________________________________
From: TekScopes@groups.io <TekScopes@groups.io> on behalf of Roger Evans via groups.io <very_fuzzy_logic@...>
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 8:13 AM
To: TekScopes@groups.io <TekScopes@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Advice about buying a 7904

I have a 7904 and a 7934 (obviously different but I believe the PSU is very similar to the 7904A). I find the fan noise of the 7934 becomes a distraction after a while when you are trying to concentrate on something else, but I agree, if you find a nice scope of either the 7904 or 4A then you should be happy with it. If you are concerned about the pulse response for very fast risetimes I would recommend the 7A29 over the 7A19. I have two 7A19s and they are very difficult to set up for clean pulse response, you need an extender (which I don't have) and decent non metallic tools to adjust the hairpin inductors which work harden slightly after several attempts to adjust them. The 7A29 has a much cleaner step response but may be getting hard to find.

Regards,

Roger

I have a 7904 and a 7934 (obviously different but I believe the PSU is very similar to the 7904A). I find the fan noise of the 7934 becomes a distraction after a while when you are trying to concentrate on something else, but I agree, if you find a nice scope of either the 7904 or 4A then you should be happy with it. If you are concerned about the pulse response for very fast risetimes I would recommend the 7A29 over the 7A19. I have two 7A19s and they are very difficult to set up for clean pulse response, you need an extender (which I don't have) and decent non metallic tools to adjust the hairpin inductors which work harden slightly after several attempts to adjust them. The 7A29 has a much cleaner step response but may be getting hard to find.

Regards,

Roger

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 10:52 AM, LarryS wrote:

I thought I had read somewhere the actual figure was 83%. You must be right!

larry

87% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
:-)

L.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Jamie
Ostrowski
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 9:09 AM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Encouraging beginners: What are we accomplishing?

Does anyone have any idea, statistically, of how many scopes die from
beginners trying to repair them verses those that die to tube harvesters or
relatives who have no interest in "Bob's" old scopes who send them to the
recycler?



On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 8:42 AM LarryS <vision1@...> wrote:

In answer to your question, ANY time you bring in fresh blood, it's
better for everyone. Every time. No exceptions. A rising tide floats all

boats.

Right now, Harley Davidson is facing 'massive restructuring'. Why?
Their rider base is literally dying off.
I'm involved in several other hobbies and pursuits where young blood
is not entering. They are dying. And with it comes a similar
intellectual cannibalism.

As any discipline dies, like analog scopes, the entry price will be
lower and lower. Soon, for rummage sale prices, the once-crown-jewel
pieces become affordable. In 1983, how many 60s fastback Mustangs
were parked behind gas station garages (remember those?) and could be
had for a couple hundred? Many were chopped and otherwise brutalized
in ways I can't describe. But such is the price. Today, they're
worth more than most people's financials.

There were many thousands of units produced of scopes and cars and
organs and everything else. Some will live nice lives and some will
die horrible deaths and grownups understand this. I've been the
careless kid and the fastidious curator, but at both extremes I remembered

the Prime Directive:

this thing is MINE, not yours. If you're worried about it, you can
buy it from me and store it away. If not, tough.

If we want a growing following, then we have to let the newbs make
their mistakes and learn as we did - yes, even on top tier equipment.
If it grows enough, someday my old junk might be worth as much as I
think it is now. If not, someone will speak poorly of me as they
shovel it all out into a dumpster after my demise.

Besides, if it tracks like everything else, one day some others will
join your song and these units will skyrocket - at least temporarily.
I own a Hammond console. In 1988, it was dumpster fodder. By 2010, it was

$10K.

Today, it's maybe $4k. These things have a cycle and scopes are
certainly no exception.

Anyway, help every newb you can. If they want to try their hand, the
answer is NEVER "let someone else do it". They're gonna do it wrong.
Just as wrong as you and I used to do stuff. The sooner they learn to
do it right, the sooner everything gets better.

L.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of
Roy Thistle
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 10:52 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: [TekScopes] Encouraging beginners: What are we accomplishing?

Hi all TekScopers:
Reading through a long thread, recently posted, caused me to wonder..
just what are TekScopers accomplishing with threads like this... and
why are we encouraging someone who is "... new to electronics..." to
dig into a 475?... one of the most complex, and compact, analog
instruments ever designed.
I suppose.. in consideration... Michael discouraged the use of a Mr.
Carlson super Weller-kluge special, on the 475's pcb(s)... but, ya know...
somewhere the thread... the 475 owner hints he paid 20.00 for 475?,
and he's also got a nonworking? PM3218 too.
So why didn't someone just recommend/... right off the bat... to take
the
475 to someone who knows what they are doing... drop another 100.00 on
it... and then he'd have one of the best scopes ever made.
Or alternatively... and better... just start in on the PM3218...itself
a very fine instrument, with a double insulated power supply... and
way overkill, for a beginner.
Look, I'm not unsympathetic... it's just that...too often.. after
parting with some scarce cash... or finding some Tek picked apart in a
basement somewhere, where its been languishing for a generation...I've
witnessed the havoc wreaked by someone trying to "fix" them.
If you want to call me a dumb ass... for thinking this way... well fine...
just PM me to do it. I can't promise I'll reply to that... but, I'll
read your message.
Best regards and wishes.
Roy

They are placed between the rectangular HV ceramic caps in the CRT HV module.

The fan on my 7904A is very quiet, a non issue on mine at least. I suggest that the most important thing will be finding the best instrument available around your location. Packing properly is difficult and shipping is expensive.

Thanks for all the responses. I also hate fan noise. That and more readily available parts make the 7904 preferable. However, I'll also look into the 7854.

As I have a Tek 11801 and HP 16702B and 16500A LAs and 8560A and 8566B SAs I'd probably use those instead anyway. I'm one of those "Tek for scopes and HP for everything else" guys.

Have Fun!
Reg

All:

Now that I have got my 576 working reliably, I was going to start calibration and I found a pair of what appear to be silicone washers laying in the bottom of the unit. I have no idea where these are supposed to go.

The color is a translucent and slightly off white.
The parts are very soft and pliable.
The appearance is like that of silicone or a similar rubber like material.
The dimensions are 22mm OD x 8mm ID x 2.25mm H (or thick).
There is no appearance of any adhesive residue on these parts.
These were laying at the bottom of the unit and had a layer of dust on top.

Photo is here: /g/TekScopes/album?id=247763

This unit is a very Low Serial number unit B0100169 and this is the one that I used as my "Test Mule" for the HV transformer project, it is in pristine condition inside. The unit seems to work just fine (other than needing a calibration) and I have not done anything else to disturb the internal parts of the unit, other than the HV Supplu cover and board. I do not believe that I dislodged these, since they appear to have been laying in the bottom of the unit for quite some time.

Any ideas what these might be or where they need to be installed?

Thanks in advance. .
--
Michael Lynch
Dardanelle, Arkansas

Bruce,

There are 2 fundamental differences that need to be taken in to account when replacing “vintage” caps. And I use the term vintage loosely. One is tolerance. In the worst case I can remember a capacitors value was +150% -%100 tolerance. The means that for a 1 uF the measured value of anything between 2.5 uF to .1 uF would be considered “in spec” old radios still amaze me they ever worked. Now a days +-20% is the normal. The service manual will tell you the tolerance of the filters. From memory I am guessing it is going to be +100% to -20 % so pretty wide design tolerance on the filters.

The other important spec is the voltage rating of the cap. And here vintage caps and modern caps differ greatly. Vintage caps were very tolerant of over voltage especially given how tube gear warms up before the tube’s comes in to operation the B+ will spike some times as high as 200 to 250 volts higher then when the device is operating and can hang there for about 15-30 seconds. This is not an issue in your 475 as it is solid state. However modern caps are completely intolerant of over voltage so if you have the physical space it is always good to bump up the voltage rating of the cap it wont effect anything to replace a 63V cap with a 400V cap excepta little cost in $ maybe one or 2 and physical space it will be slightly bigger then it’s modern lower voltage counterpart. However both are usually smaller then their vintage counter part even doubling the voltage the modern can will be smaller physically.

Eric

On 5/29/2020 12:50 AM, ciclista41 via groups.io wrote:

It might help if I posted the values of the capacitors that were originally in the scope. I'll do this below in the quoted text.

I have used Kemet in projects but mainly their surface mount stuff

I tend to lean to

Nichicon

Rubycon - Actual? (frequently found counter fit parts)

Veshay

and Illinois Capasitor

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 05:59 PM, <ciclista41@...> wrote:

?Hi folks,

Here's my proposed parts order on Digi-Key, except that I haven't decided
between the first or second set of tantalums. The caps below those are to
replace the large C1412, 14, 42, 52, 62, and 72 capacitors. I tried to go up
a bit on the rating of both the capacitance and the voltage, but was hampered
somewhat by a lack of choice when only purchasing one or two of each. I'd had
Nichicon recommended to me, so I stuck with them where I could. Apparently,
Nichicon sold their tantalum capacitor manufacturing to AVX. I don't know
about Kemet, but couldn't find Nichicon near those specs. Also, I haven't yet
received the circular PCB's, so I assumed from the photos of them that they
can accommodate a range of lead spacings. Just thought I'd run it by you all
before I place the order in case I'd be advised to change anything.

To replace the tantalum I broke (C1091), and the other one I removed (C1093). Originals were 2.2μF 20V.

478-1870-ND?
?TAP225K025SCS?
AVX Corporation
CAP TANT 2.2UF 10% 25V RADIAL
Immediate
0.46400
$9.28

or

478-8972-1-ND?
?TAP225M035SRW?
AVX Corporation
CAP TANT 2.2UF 20% 35V RADIAL
Immediate
0.63500
$12.70

To replace C1414 1000μF 75VDC

?493-17708-ND?
?UBY1K102MHL?
Nichicon
CAP ALUM 1000UF 20% 80V T/H
Immediate
3.34000
$3.34

To replace C1412 350μF 75VDC

?493-17783-1-ND?
?UBY2A361MHL6TN?
Nichicon
CAP ALUM 360UF 20% 100V T/H
Immediate
3.18000
$3.18

To replace C1442 and C1462 5500μF 30VDC

?399-19618-ND?
?ALC70A562BB040?
KEMET
SNAP-IN HIGH CV 85C 5600UF 40V
Immediate
5.10000
$10.20

To replace C1452 5000μF 25VDC

?493-14637-ND?
?UBY1V512MHL?
Nichicon
CAP ALUM 5100UF 20% 35V RADIAL
Immediate
5.44000
$5.44

To replace C1472 3000μF 35VDC

?493-14660-1-ND?
?UBY1V302MHL1TN?
Nichicon
CAP ALUM 3000UF 20% 35V RADIAL
Immediate
3.02000
$3.02

Thanks for your input!

Bruce

I had a 7904A recently for a short time.
The fan was one reason I sold it - the noise is obnoxious to me. I don't think there was anything wrong with the fan, but I'm sensitive to that white noise - it bugs me.

Pete

It might help if I posted the values of the capacitors that were originally in the scope. I'll do this below in the quoted text.

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 05:59 PM, <ciclista41@...> wrote:

?Hi folks,

Here's my proposed parts order on Digi-Key, except that I haven't decided
between the first or second set of tantalums. The caps below those are to
replace the large C1412, 14, 42, 52, 62, and 72 capacitors. I tried to go up
a bit on the rating of both the capacitance and the voltage, but was hampered
somewhat by a lack of choice when only purchasing one or two of each. I'd had
Nichicon recommended to me, so I stuck with them where I could. Apparently,
Nichicon sold their tantalum capacitor manufacturing to AVX. I don't know
about Kemet, but couldn't find Nichicon near those specs. Also, I haven't yet
received the circular PCB's, so I assumed from the photos of them that they
can accommodate a range of lead spacings. Just thought I'd run it by you all
before I place the order in case I'd be advised to change anything.

To replace the tantalum I broke (C1091), and the other one I removed (C1093). Originals were 2.2μF 20V.

478-1870-ND?
?TAP225K025SCS?
AVX Corporation
CAP TANT 2.2UF 10% 25V RADIAL
Immediate
0.46400
$9.28

or

478-8972-1-ND?
?TAP225M035SRW?
AVX Corporation
CAP TANT 2.2UF 20% 35V RADIAL
Immediate
0.63500
$12.70

To replace C1414 1000μF 75VDC

?493-17708-ND?
?UBY1K102MHL?
Nichicon
CAP ALUM 1000UF 20% 80V T/H
Immediate
3.34000
$3.34

To replace C1412 350μF 75VDC

?493-17783-1-ND?
?UBY2A361MHL6TN?
Nichicon
CAP ALUM 360UF 20% 100V T/H
Immediate
3.18000
$3.18

To replace C1442 and C1462 5500μF 30VDC

?399-19618-ND?
?ALC70A562BB040?
KEMET
SNAP-IN HIGH CV 85C 5600UF 40V
Immediate
5.10000
$10.20

To replace C1452 5000μF 25VDC

?493-14637-ND?
?UBY1V512MHL?
Nichicon
CAP ALUM 5100UF 20% 35V RADIAL
Immediate
5.44000
$5.44

To replace C1472 3000μF 35VDC

?493-14660-1-ND?
?UBY1V302MHL1TN?
Nichicon
CAP ALUM 3000UF 20% 35V RADIAL
Immediate
3.02000
$3.02

Thanks for your input!

Bruce

I just finished creating the binary files for each of the Option ROMs v2.1 and also a 16bit binary that could be used for disassembly and posted them in the ROMs folder on my github repository for the 4041:

I can speak of this from the 7904 perspective, since I have two that work, and some backup parts sources,

I had 7904's available, and no 7904As.

the 7A19 are the "appropriate" plugin for a 500 mhz single channel plugin.? However, they're protected by fuses which may be (impossible) hard to find.? The 7A29 has a higher bandwidth and is apparently not protected by fuses (and by something that can be reset), so I prefer them.

My general setup is a 7A26, 7D12 (with sampling plugin), 7D15, and 7B92A.

I've swapped the vertical plugins as needed, 7A22, 7A13, 7A24, 7A29.

I've used the 7B10 and 7B15, but only rarely.

Don't have the 7B8x or 7b7X to speak of, at least, I may have some of them, but don't use them.

I've had (generally) few issues, a hybrid perhaps bad, a PS bad, but nothing that I thought was system wide.

Harvey

As a precaution, some switching supplies don't work well with a voltage below the operating voltage.

For a linear supply, as the voltage to the supply rises, the regulator generally (if it has a decent reference) will turn on full until the input voltage to the regulator reaches a threshold where the output voltage would exceed the setting, then the regulator stops being a short circuit and starts regulating. Depending on the circuit, for example a 5 volt regulator may need anything from 5.25 volts to 8 volts to start regulating.

On the other hand, a switching regulator is not so well behaved.

Remember that a switching regulator has a transistor that, instead of being a variable resistor, is a switch.? It's either on or off.? The switching regulator works by pulsing the transistor on with a limited duty cycle.? That complete (on) dead short lasts for enough time to build up the output voltage, then it turns off.? There are several geometries of switching regulator, some of which, if the switching element is turned on, will draw a lot of current.

The problem in a switching regulator (or one that has two transistors driving a transformer as an inverter), is the question:? What happens when the input voltage is too low?

Some turn on and try to build a proper output voltage.? Some may not operate until they get enough input voltage to work properly.

The problem with some of them is that they draw a LOT of current before they start to operate properly (and switch on/off).

Tektronix uses both switching and linear supplies, and the switching supplies may or may not "like" low input voltages.

I have brought up scopes using a variac, but I have monitored the input current.? I've seen it go over the proper rating and then go back to a lower voltage when the supply starts to switch.

I've seen them work into a short (and the tick mode/overcurrent mode) not work well.? You find that out by monitoring the current the scope draws as the voltage goes up.

Each supply/scope may be different.? You'll need to watch what each one does.

I have a sencore unit that has an isolation transformer and a variac.? It measures both leakage current from the supply lines to ground (not neutral) and the input voltage, output to the UUT, and current.

It's been useful.? You could make one if you wanted, with the exception of the leakage current measurements.? Not sure how they did that.

I'd seriously recommend simultaneous output voltage/output current monitoring, but on this one, I know where the variac will put out full voltage, and can still monitor the current.

Harvey

I stand corrected. Sometimes you can teach an old dog new tricks! ;)

Thanks, Raymond!

Jim