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Hello everyone! Recently joined the site to learn what I could about this wonderful airplane. I'm a former varieze builder, very comfortable with composites, having retired with 40 years of FRP design and fab experience.? Was going to build another VE but the W10 makes more sense for my needs. Also have a turbo corvair engine that was going in the VE, that I've read could be a good match for a light, no frills tailwind.?
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I found a fuselage on gear with original plans, clement mods , and Mr Stanton's manual. From those resources I'd work out as close to exact dimension replica in foam/glass/epoxy Ala Rutan construction methods.
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Has it been done to anyone's knowledge? I think I read somewhere it had been attempted? Am I an idiot? Please feel free to express yourselves good or bad. If I'm committing aviation heresy, let me know:)
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Thanks, Mike
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Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corvair power and composites wherever possible....
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My two cents:
Seems to me that the least-effort path is to build up the rest of the airplane around the purchased fuselage.? Nobody lives forever.?
Hello everyone! Recently joined the site to learn what I could about this wonderful airplane. I'm a former varieze builder, very comfortable with composites, having retired with 40 years of FRP design and fab experience.? Was going to build another VE but the W10 makes more sense for my needs. Also have a turbo corvair engine that was going in the VE, that I've read could be a good match for a light, no frills tailwind.?
?
I found a fuselage on gear with original plans, clement mods , and Mr Stanton's manual. From those resources I'd work out as close to exact dimension replica in foam/glass/epoxy Ala Rutan construction methods.
?
Has it been done to anyone's knowledge? I think I read somewhere it had been attempted? Am I an idiot? Please feel free to express yourselves good or bad. If I'm committing aviation heresy, let me know:)
?
Thanks, Mike
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Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corsair power and composites wherever possible....
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How much will that cost?? You might buy a nice flying W10 cheaper. Especially if your time isn¡¯t free.?
On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 7:42?PM Peter Havriluk via <Phavriluk= [email protected]> wrote: My two cents:
Seems to me that the least-effort path is to build up the rest of the airplane around the purchased fuselage.? Nobody lives forever.?
Hello everyone! Recently joined the site to learn what I could about this wonderful airplane. I'm a former varieze builder, very comfortable with composites, having retired with 40 years of FRP design and fab experience.? Was going to build another VE but the W10 makes more sense for my needs. Also have a turbo corvair engine that was going in the VE, that I've read could be a good match for a light, no frills tailwind.?
?
I found a fuselage on gear with original plans, clement mods , and Mr Stanton's manual. From those resources I'd work out as close to exact dimension replica in foam/glass/epoxy Ala Rutan construction methods.
?
Has it been done to anyone's knowledge? I think I read somewhere it had been attempted? Am I an idiot? Please feel free to express yourselves good or bad. If I'm committing aviation heresy, let me know:)
?
Thanks, Mike
--
Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corsair power and composites wherever possible....
--
Peter Havriluk
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Bob Wray
N115WT
KABI
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Cover and finish what you have and make a carbon composite wing perhaps.? That has been done in fiberglass.? They called it a "Taper wing Tailwind" I think.
Also a "Woodwind" was tried.? Look them up in the old Sport Aviation magazines...? Those articles could be in the files section, I can't remember.
Hello everyone! Recently joined the site to learn what I could about this wonderful airplane. I'm a former varieze builder, very comfortable with composites, having retired with 40 years of FRP design and fab experience.? Was going to build another VE but the W10 makes more sense for my needs. Also have a turbo corvair engine that was going in the VE, that I've read could be a good match for a light, no frills tailwind.?
?
I found a fuselage on gear with original plans, clement mods , and Mr Stanton's manual. From those resources I'd work out as close to exact dimension replica in foam/glass/epoxy Ala Rutan construction methods.
?
Has it been done to anyone's knowledge? I think I read somewhere it had been attempted? Am I an idiot? Please feel free to express yourselves good or bad. If I'm committing aviation heresy, let me know:)
?
Thanks, Mike
--
Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corsair power and composites wherever possible....
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Thanks for the feedback. Being kind, the welding on this fuselage is nothing I would ever want to fly. I'm a good welder as long as it's 1/4" thick mild steel and I'm running a mig. I recently purchased a tig but haven't started using it yet. I'm in awe of you guys producing beautiful welds with gas. It intimidates me.
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The tailwind really lends itself to simple composite parts made from temporary molds. The corners meet would have overlapping scarf joints and doublers inside and out.?
?
It's possible to achieve an all up airframe minus engine and prop in the 500-550 lb range (depending on material choices) with very smooth surfaces and clean lines. Could it produce a 250mph ship with an O320/150hp? Maybe?
?
Keep the comments coming!
?
All the best
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Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corsair power and composites wherever possible....
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This is experimental aviation. I'd love to see you build a composite Tailwind!
On Wednesday, October 9th, 2024 at 6:42 AM, Standleys via groups.io <Standleys@...> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. Being kind, the welding on this fuselage is nothing I would ever want to fly. I'm a good welder as long as it's 1/4" thick mild steel and I'm running a mig. I recently purchased a tig but haven't started using it yet. I'm in awe of you guys producing beautiful welds with gas. It intimidates me.
?
The tailwind really lends itself to simple composite parts made from temporary molds. The corners meet would have overlapping scarf joints and doublers inside and out.?
?
It's possible to achieve an all up airframe minus engine and prop in the 500-550 lb range (depending on material choices) with very smooth surfaces and clean lines. Could it produce a 250mph ship with an O320/150hp? Maybe?
?
Keep the comments coming!
?
All the best
--
Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corsair power and composites wherever possible....
|
It's an interesting prospect Mike.? The one nagging feeling I have is that large flat panels are not where composites shine.? They're certainly much better suited to round sexy shapes, as have been used on many 'fast-glass' airplanes.? I suspect you'd need plenty of ribs and longerons molded on the interior surface, though now that I'm thinking of it, foam sandwich panels could be workable as well.? Just to toss a random thought out there, how about a relatively open composite framework, with shapes well suited to composites, and then do a final covering in fabric to close it all in.
It'll be interesting to see where the engineering takes you.? ;^)
Gerry
On 10/09/24 09:41 AM, "Don Norris via groups.io" <danorrisfly@...> wrote:This is experimental aviation. I'd love to see you build a composite Tailwind!
On Wednesday, October 9th, 2024 at 6:42 AM, Standleys via groups.io <Standleys@...> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. Being kind, the welding on this fuselage is nothing I would ever want to fly. I'm a good welder as long as it's 1/4" thick mild steel and I'm running a mig. I recently purchased a tig but haven't started using it yet. I'm in awe of you guys producing beautiful welds with gas. It intimidates me.
The tailwind really lends itself to simple composite parts made from temporary molds. The corners meet would have overlapping scarf joints and doublers inside and out.?
It's possible to achieve an all up airframe minus engine and prop in the 500-550 lb range (depending on material choices) with very smooth surfaces and clean lines. Could it produce a 250mph ship with an O320/150hp? Maybe?
Keep the comments coming!
All the best
--
Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corsair power and composites wherever possible....
|
On the?F1 racers that have been retrofitted with carbon wings and tail some have had the steel tube fuselage completely covered with carbon shells.? The record setting Biplane racer has a steel tube forward fuselage. Aft of pilot seat is all carbon with empennage permanently attached. Carbon portion bolts to steel tubing portion. I think Nemesis was also built that way but no steel tubing,all carbon fiber. The early F1 that Art School rebuilt had all steel tube fuselage covered with fiberglass.?
On Wednesday, October 9, 2024 at 09:13:23 AM MST, Gerry van Dyk <gerry.vandyk@...> wrote:
It's an interesting prospect Mike.? The one nagging feeling I have is that large flat panels are not where composites shine.? They're certainly much better suited to round sexy shapes, as have been used on many 'fast-glass' airplanes.? I suspect you'd need plenty of ribs and longerons molded on the interior surface, though now that I'm thinking of it, foam sandwich panels could be workable as well.? Just to toss a random thought out there, how about a relatively open composite framework, with shapes well suited to composites, and then do a final covering in fabric to close it all in.
It'll be interesting to see where the engineering takes you.? ;^)
Gerry
On 10/09/24 09:41 AM, "Don Norris via groups.io" <danorrisfly@...> wrote:This is experimental aviation. I'd love to see you build a composite Tailwind!
On Wednesday, October 9th, 2024 at 6:42 AM, Standleys via groups.io <Standleys@...> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. Being kind, the welding on this fuselage is nothing I would ever want to fly. I'm a good welder as long as it's 1/4" thick mild steel and I'm running a mig. I recently purchased a tig but haven't started using it yet. I'm in awe of you guys producing beautiful welds with gas. It intimidates me.
The tailwind really lends itself to simple composite parts made from temporary molds. The corners meet would have overlapping scarf joints and doublers inside and out.?
It's possible to achieve an all up airframe minus engine and prop in the 500-550 lb range (depending on material choices) with very smooth surfaces and clean lines. Could it produce a 250mph ship with an O320/150hp? Maybe?
Keep the comments coming!
All the best
--
Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corsair power and composites wherever possible....
|
I think the fuselage shape, from stem to stern, as well as the wing-to-fuselage junction have a lot to do with Tailwind performance.? It is hard for me (just me) to see the advantage in a more curved ¡°sexy¡± fuselage shape, but it might be there.? Also, I have my doubts about any possible weight advantage.? In my mind (narrow as it sometimes is, I¡¯ll admit) the Tailwind design lends itself better to the alternative of all metal monocoque implementation, than to epoxy fiber-composites.? However, I am not nay-saying your idea of composite construction.? I take it that it could better suit a builder¡¯s knowledge, skill and material situation.? So by all means, yes, I¡¯d like to see it done.? I am all for freedom of choice and finding out for one¡¯s self.? The whole world can learn something if someone tries something in his/her own way.? What have we all got to gain by nay-saying?? Thanks, and keep us informed. ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Gerry van Dyk
Sent: Wednesday, October 9, 2024 12:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TailwindForum] All Composite W10 anyone???? It's an interesting prospect Mike.? The one nagging feeling I have is that large flat panels are not where composites shine.? They're certainly much better suited to round sexy shapes, as have been used on many 'fast-glass' airplanes.? I suspect you'd need plenty of ribs and longerons molded on the interior surface, though now that I'm thinking of it, foam sandwich panels could be workable as well.? Just to toss a random thought out there, how about a relatively open composite framework, with shapes well suited to composites, and then do a final covering in fabric to close it all in. It'll be interesting to see where the engineering takes you.? ;^) Gerry
On 10/09/24 09:41 AM, "Don Norris via groups.io" <danorrisfly@...> wrote: This is experimental aviation. I'd love to see you build a composite Tailwind! On Wednesday, October 9th, 2024 at 6:42 AM, Standleys via groups.io <Standleys@...> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. Being kind, the welding on this fuselage is nothing I would ever want to fly. I'm a good welder as long as it's 1/4" thick mild steel and I'm running a mig. I recently purchased a tig but haven't started using it yet. I'm in awe of you guys producing beautiful welds with gas. It intimidates me. The tailwind really lends itself to simple composite parts made from temporary molds. The corners meet would have overlapping scarf joints and doublers inside and out.? It's possible to achieve an all up airframe minus engine and prop in the 500-550 lb range (depending on material choices) with very smooth surfaces and clean lines. Could it produce a 250mph ship with an O320/150hp? Maybe? Keep the comments coming! Wannabe W10 builder using Corsair power and composites wherever possible....
?
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If you change the shape of the fuselage it is no longer a Tailwind. Call it something else.?
On Wednesday, October 9, 2024 at 11:54:01 AM MST, Smoky via groups.io <lowea1@...> wrote:
I think the fuselage shape, from stem to stern, as well as the wing-to-fuselage junction have a lot to do with Tailwind performance.? It is hard for me (just me) to see the advantage in a more curved ¡°sexy¡± fuselage shape, but it might be there.? Also, I have my doubts about any possible weight advantage.? In my mind (narrow as it sometimes is, I¡¯ll admit) the Tailwind design lends itself better to the alternative of all metal monocoque implementation, than to epoxy fiber-composites.? However, I am not nay-saying your idea of composite construction.? I take it that it could better suit a builder¡¯s knowledge, skill and material situation.? So by all means, yes, I¡¯d like to see it done.? I am all for freedom of choice and finding out for one¡¯s self.? The whole world can learn something if someone tries something in his/her own way.? What have we all got to gain by nay-saying?? Thanks, and keep us informed. ?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Gerry van Dyk
Sent: Wednesday, October 9, 2024 12:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TailwindForum] All Composite W10 anyone??? ? It's an interesting prospect Mike.? The one nagging feeling I have is that large flat panels are not where composites shine.? They're certainly much better suited to round sexy shapes, as have been used on many 'fast-glass' airplanes.? I suspect you'd need plenty of ribs and longerons molded on the interior surface, though now that I'm thinking of it, foam sandwich panels could be workable as well.? Just to toss a random thought out there, how about a relatively open composite framework, with shapes well suited to composites, and then do a final covering in fabric to close it all in. It'll be interesting to see where the engineering takes you.? ;^) Gerry
On 10/09/24 09:41 AM, "Don Norris via groups.io" <danorrisfly@...> wrote: This is experimental aviation. I'd love to see you build a composite Tailwind! On Wednesday, October 9th, 2024 at 6:42 AM, Standleys via groups.io <Standleys@...> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. Being kind, the welding on this fuselage is nothing I would ever want to fly. I'm a good welder as long as it's 1/4" thick mild steel and I'm running a mig. I recently purchased a tig but haven't started using it yet. I'm in awe of you guys producing beautiful welds with gas. It intimidates me. The tailwind really lends itself to simple composite parts made from temporary molds. The corners meet would have overlapping scarf joints and doublers inside and out.? It's possible to achieve an all up airframe minus engine and prop in the 500-550 lb range (depending on material choices) with very smooth surfaces and clean lines. Could it produce a 250mph ship with an O320/150hp? Maybe? Keep the comments coming! Wannabe W10 builder using Corsair power and composites wherever possible....
?
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Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, spend a week practicing gas welding. The airplane will get built lots sooner.? Wittman designed the airplane with a rag-and-tube fuselage attached to? wood wings. Besides which, I wouldn't be willing to be in the air inside anything that wasn't stress-analyzed.? ? ? ? ??
On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 12:13?PM Gerry van Dyk via <gerry.vandyk= [email protected]> wrote: It's an interesting prospect Mike.? The one nagging feeling I have is that large flat panels are not where composites shine.? They're certainly much better suited to round sexy shapes, as have been used on many 'fast-glass' airplanes.? I suspect you'd need plenty of ribs and longerons molded on the interior surface, though now that I'm thinking of it, foam sandwich panels could be workable as well.? Just to toss a random thought out there, how about a relatively open composite framework, with shapes well suited to composites, and then do a final covering in fabric to close it all in.
It'll be interesting to see where the engineering takes you.? ;^)
Gerry On 10/09/24 09:41 AM, "Don Norris via " <danorrisfly=[email protected]> wrote:This is experimental aviation. I'd love to see you build a composite Tailwind!
On Wednesday, October 9th, 2024 at 6:42 AM, Standleys via <Standleys= [email protected]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. Being kind, the welding on this fuselage is nothing I would ever want to fly. I'm a good welder as long as it's 1/4" thick mild steel and I'm running a mig. I recently purchased a tig but haven't started using it yet. I'm in awe of you guys producing beautiful welds with gas. It intimidates me.
The tailwind really lends itself to simple composite parts made from temporary molds. The corners meet would have overlapping scarf joints and doublers inside and out.?
It's possible to achieve an all up airframe minus engine and prop in the 500-550 lb range (depending on material choices) with very smooth surfaces and clean lines. Could it produce a 250mph ship with an O320/150hp? Maybe?
Keep the comments coming!
All the best
--
Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corsair power and composites wherever possible....
|
I built a VariEze. There is the fun side of composites making
cool parts. The bad side is the dust. A few years after building I
had to clean my shop out to the walls and blow it out really well.
Then everything that came back in had to be cleaned of the super
fine dust. If I did it again I'd have a dedicated sanding room.
Almost all airplanes need a bit of composite work. Cowlings,
fairings. I've helped my RV friends fit their stuff.
Even with vacuum bagging carbon a composite Tailwind would
probably be heavier. Rutan mold less construction would be a much
faster build than bagging.
I never considered the Tailwind till I got old, stiff and sore.
Getting in and out of the VariEze is to hard on me these days.?
Got in and out of a friends Tailwind eze.
I also like the long history of the Tailwind and how many old
ones are still flying. It's a classic. It also has a great
community. An important safety resource.
There are lots of good two seat composite designs. You probably
don't need a new design if you want fast glass.
Do you want to design and build forever or go flying? There is
also the composite engineering part that needs to be considered.
My 6 bits,
John
On 10/9/24 14:39, Peter Havriluk wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, spend a
week practicing gas welding. The airplane will get built lots
sooner.? Wittman designed the airplane with a rag-and-tube
fuselage attached to? wood wings. Besides which, I wouldn't be
willing to be in the air inside anything that wasn't
stress-analyzed.? ? ? ? ??
On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at
12:13?PM Gerry van Dyk via <gerry.vandyk= [email protected]>
wrote:
It's
an interesting prospect Mike.? The one nagging feeling I have
is that large flat panels are not where composites shine.?
They're certainly much better suited to round sexy shapes, as
have been used on many 'fast-glass' airplanes.? I suspect
you'd need plenty of ribs and longerons molded on the interior
surface, though now that I'm thinking of it, foam sandwich
panels could be workable as well.? Just to toss a random
thought out there, how about a relatively open composite
framework, with shapes well suited to composites, and then do
a final covering in fabric to close it all in.
It'll be interesting to see where the engineering takes
you.? ;^)
Gerry
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Hi All. I appreciate all the comments (except learning to gas weld) :). Everybody made great points. As far as making it more curvy, let me clarify- I was referring to taking out segmented lines and making the hull all fair curves. It's critical that Steve's shape be preserved. I think we all suspect something about the upper shape from cowl to windshield to aft deck contribute to its stellar performance. I also think the correct path might be a small steel structure (similar to the Stoddard Hamilton Glastar) might be the way to go; Connecting the spars, A and B pillars with the firewall engine mount in an abbreviated cage merged into the glass. Replacing ceconite with carbon would be a real waste of it's structural properties, add cost, and add weight. Burt nailed it- his method as messy as it is yields the lighted structure possible. However, there are products, chemicals, materials, and finishing systems today that didn't exist in 1976.? I can get really close with four main tools made from melamine and a 4x16 table. The temporary tools themselves can be made in a few weeks, the parts in another week or two. I'll try to upload a pic of what I'm trying to describe. Again, thanks for all the thoughtful input.
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All the Best
--
Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corvair power and composites wherever possible....
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Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corsair power and composites wherever possible....
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This shows the four molded skins that make up the hull. I clipped? pic of a bare w10 frame from the web and overlayed the skins and bulkheads where the tubes are now. The inside corners would all get carbon tapes to tie everything together and act as longeron stiffeners. The bulkheads would all receive corner tapes on 3 sides before closing the top. Forgive the quality of the sketch it was a quick.
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Rgds
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Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corsair power and composites wherever possible....
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That looks really neat. I would love to see this become reality and to see what differences are made between the W10 and this concept! Innovate away!
This shows the four molded skins that make up the hull. I clipped? pic of a bare w10 frame from the web and overlayed the skins and bulkheads where the tubes are now. The inside corners would all get carbon tapes to tie everything together and act as longeron stiffeners. The bulkheads would all receive corner tapes on 3 sides before closing the top. Forgive the quality of the sketch it was a quick.
?
Rgds
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Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corsair power and composites wherever possible....
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Hey Mike,
I¡¯ve been wrestling with the same thoughts lately. On one hand, why mess with a design that¡¯s already proven, right? But then I think about the advantages of composite and it¡¯s hard to ignore the possibilities. I¡¯m totally with you on this!
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I¡¯m no design engineer, but with all the great info online and the brilliant minds here on the forum, there¡¯s a lot to learn. My project won¡¯t kick off until late next year, but I plan to use a water-cooled auto engine, aiming to keep costs low without sacrificing performance. I¡¯ll be keeping a close eye on your progress¡ªexcited to see how things go for you!
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Mike, do what you can to get a close look at a Tailwind.? From the cockpit back there are three tube longerons top and bottom and two each side.? They give all the panels just an inch or two of outward bow, rather than being true 'slab' panels.? This shape may be useful to you as well.
Cheers Gerry
On 10/11/24 11:52 AM, "Standleys via groups.io" <Standleys@...> wrote:
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Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corsair power and composites wherever possible....
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Hey Gerry, you are right. I have a build partner who wants to go in with me on the project.? He's thinking about trying to save the steel fuselage and use composite wings. If we pull the trigger on this plane, I'll get it in the shop and start examining it in great detail. At every fuselage station I'll, make templates, compare to the plans to ensure build accuracy and proceed from there.?
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Rgds
--
Mike S?
Wannabe W10 builder using Corvair power and composites wherever possible....
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Hi everyone! I tried to update my profile this morning? and may have accidentally created a new one..
Anyway, finally brought the W10 home we were looking at. It's a bit of a mystery. It May or may not have flown. My friend Rob and I are now the 4th? owners.
It was built, covered, cover removed, wings scrapped by most recent owner, and restarted. Came with a 0'd/converted 0290G. Here's how it looks.
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Been thinking about Mr Stantons idea to recover in preformed carbon skins. Turns out it's less costly than conventional materials with a small weight penalty, so might go that route on the way to a full composite version.
Rgds, Mike
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Mike S
Bob Wray
Ryan Piper
