Ahoy,

I am trying to figure out a reasonable way to repair the tube that pennant for the centerboard goes through.

Mine has been partially sawed through. I know this is a common problem, but I am not sure what viable repairs exist. I searched the group but the results were not super illuminating.

To prevent the problem from getting worse, I can fashion a bushing from wood or plastic so that any future rubbing happens there. I generally haul my boat for the winter, so I can inspect that every year (and replace as needed).

But, I am not sure how concerned I should be about the existing wear on the pipe. The wear is worst at the top and bottom. At the top you can see the backside of the threads of the nipple. There is much less wear in the middle of the pipe.

I am somewhat concerned that when I put the hose clamps on I could accidentally crush the pipe.

So, I wonder, is there a practical way to 'repair' the pipe.

Here are some thoughts:

1. Remove the old tube and epoxy a new one in place.

I have several concerns about this approach. It is not clear to me that epoxy sticks super well to bronze. I only have access to one side of the repair. I could cause additional damage trying to get the old tube out. There would also only be limited surface area for the epoxy to mechanically bond to the existing polyester in the truck.

In summary, it seems like a tricky repair and it is not clear how strong it will be.

2. Epoxy a 1.5" OD fiberglass tube around the existing tube

I would attach the new tube with epoxy and fiberglass to the trunk so that it does not rely on the remaining integrity of the existing tube. I'd also fill the gap between the tubes with thickened epoxy. That is in part structural, but also keeps the water from pooling between the two pipes. Maybe not important, but can't hurt? It's sort of a belt and suspenders fix.

This is probably the strongest repair and is also fairly non-invasive. I am only adding stuff, not removing or cutting anything. I can't imagine how this repair could result in things being worse than when I started.

The 'problem' with this approach is that I now need a larger diameter hose to sleeve the pennant (one with a 1.5" ID). That is only a minor issue -- except that it will be too fat to fit through the holes in the wooden covers on top of the companionway stairs.

I considered trying to use a hose-mender (aka, hose reducer) to reduce the 1.5" ID hose to a 1" ID hose so that I would not have to cut a large hole in the boards, but I could not find one with those dimensions for sale.

So, this repair should work -- I just have to suck it up and cut the wood.

3. 4200 a smaller bronze tube inside the existing tube

This solution is perhaps the weakest. It would provide some extra support so that the hose clamps would not crush the outer pipe. But, the 4200 is flexible -- so it will still give some potential flex.

Also, finding a tube that can fit inside the existing tube might substantially reduce the ID making it harder to fit a wood/plastic bushing.?

The advantage of this solution is that I can use the same size hose. (One with a 1" ID).

This repair is also the least invasive. Because the tube inside is installed with 4200, it could be removed or replaced. So, I can always opt to use a different method later.

4. Remove the centerboard and glass over the trunk from the outside.

This most effectively solves the pennant tube issue -- but I am not ready to get rid of my centerboard.

5. <your idea here>

What do people generally do? Anyone have regrets or success?

- jeremy

#9586

FWIW, the last thing you should do is give up your centerboard, especially over this issue.   There are several fixes worth doing.    Some T27 owners have changed over to Dyneema pennants.  These are believed to ‘saw’ less than the standard-issue stainless cable, which, when you think about it, is functionally the equivalent of a bandsaw blade when the centerboard drops.   I’m doing that Dyneema fix, but haven’t hit the water yet, so I can’t give you real-world feedback on that.   In any event, even as strong as Dyneeema is, I still plan on using something fairly stout, 3/16 or better, not for strength but for chafe.   

I ended up getting a bronze hose barb fitting, one with threads large enough to screw into the existing fiberglass stub, with a smaller hose barb thru which the Dyneema runs.  I certainly DID beef up the stub with fiberglass cloth, all around it and bonded to a large area on the trunk.   Since the ID of the hose barb was I think maybe 1/4” or maybe it was 5/16”, I taped it, filled it with epoxy impregnated with Teflon powder, and then drilled it out to 3/16”.    I took a dremel bit and essentially countersunk the bottom side of the epoxy, i.e. rounding its exit because as you raise/lower the board, the angle from the stub to the attachment point on the centerboard changes, which is probably what causes the chafe in the first place.   So the hope is, anyway, that what I’ve accomplished is a) to reduce the size of the hole thru which water can enter to about 3/16”, which SHOULD be mostly blocked by the 3/16” pennant anyway; and b) use a slippery pennant; and c) contour the exit so it chafes less when the angle changes.   

“Your mileage may vary,” but that was my solution.    Warren Stein, Hulls No. 90 and 535.

Show quoted text

On Jan 13, 2020, at 9:35 PM, jeremy@... wrote:

?
Ahoy,

I am trying to figure out a reasonable way to repair the tube that pennant for the centerboard goes through.

Mine has been partially sawed through. I know this is a common problem, but I am not sure what viable repairs exist. I searched the group but the results were not super illuminating.

To prevent the problem from getting worse, I can fashion a bushing from wood or plastic so that any future rubbing happens there. I generally haul my boat for the winter, so I can inspect that every year (and replace as needed).

But, I am not sure how concerned I should be about the existing wear on the pipe. The wear is worst at the top and bottom. At the top you can see the backside of the threads of the nipple. There is much less wear in the middle of the pipe.

I am somewhat concerned that when I put the hose clamps on I could accidentally crush the pipe. 

So, I wonder, is there a practical way to 'repair' the pipe.

Here are some thoughts:

1. Remove the old tube and epoxy a new one in place.

I have several concerns about this approach. It is not clear to me that epoxy sticks super well to bronze. I only have access to one side of the repair. I could cause additional damage trying to get the old tube out. There would also only be limited surface area for the epoxy to mechanically bond to the existing polyester in the truck. 

In summary, it seems like a tricky repair and it is not clear how strong it will be.

2. Epoxy a 1.5" OD fiberglass tube around the existing tube

I would attach the new tube with epoxy and fiberglass to the trunk so that it does not rely on the remaining integrity of the existing tube. I'd also fill the gap between the tubes with thickened epoxy. That is in part structural, but also keeps the water from pooling between the two pipes. Maybe not important, but can't hurt? It's sort of a belt and suspenders fix.

This is probably the strongest repair and is also fairly non-invasive. I am only adding stuff, not removing or cutting anything. I can't imagine how this repair could result in things being worse than when I started.

The 'problem' with this approach is that I now need a larger diameter hose to sleeve the pennant (one with a 1.5" ID). That is only a minor issue -- except that it will be too fat to fit through the holes in the wooden covers on top of the companionway stairs. 

I considered trying to use a hose-mender (aka, hose reducer) to reduce the 1.5" ID hose to a 1" ID hose so that I would not have to cut a large hole in the boards, but I could not find one with those dimensions for sale.

So, this repair should work -- I just have to suck it up and cut the wood.

3. 4200 a smaller bronze tube inside the existing tube

This solution is perhaps the weakest. It would provide some extra support so that the hose clamps would not crush the outer pipe. But, the 4200 is flexible -- so it will still give some potential flex.

Also, finding a tube that can fit inside the existing tube might substantially reduce the ID making it harder to fit a wood/plastic bushing. 

The advantage of this solution is that I can use the same size hose. (One with a 1" ID).

This repair is also the least invasive. Because the tube inside is installed with 4200, it could be removed or replaced. So, I can always opt to use a different method later.

4. Remove the centerboard and glass over the trunk from the outside.

This most effectively solves the pennant tube issue -- but I am not ready to get rid of my centerboard.

5. <your idea here>

What do people generally do? Anyone have regrets or success?

- jeremy

#9587

Hi Jeremy,

All I can tell you is that this is a topic that has been discussed in the past and I am pretty sure at least one of our members did one of the repair options you mentioned.

/g/T27Owners/message/560?p=,,,20,0,0,0::relevance,,posterid%3A2142049,20,2,20,36160572

I'm just not sure who did it or when but I the new websites (groups.io) search function using "centerboard" as a search argument let me find the above comment from Rich Shearly in 2008.? I think we have about 20 years of owners comments/postings.

My feeble memory says that whoever did it "glued" (epoxied) a bronze bushing into the centerboard trunk as a sacrificial piece that the wire rope could wear through over time.? Doesn't sound like an easy non-invasive fix but it sounds like it might help keep your boat from leaking from underneath.

Good luck.

Caleb D.

T27 #328

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: jeremy <jeremy@...>
To: T27Owners <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, Jan 13, 2020 9:35 pm
Subject: [T27Owners] Centerboard pennant fairlead tube repair

Ahoy,

I am trying to figure out a reasonable way to repair the tube that pennant for the centerboard goes through.

Mine has been partially sawed through. I know this is a common problem, but I am not sure what viable repairs exist. I searched the group but the results were not super illuminating.

To prevent the problem from getting worse, I can fashion a bushing from wood or plastic so that any future rubbing happens there. I generally haul my boat for the winter, so I can inspect that every year (and replace as needed).

But, I am not sure how concerned I should be about the existing wear on the pipe. The wear is worst at the top and bottom. At the top you can see the backside of the threads of the nipple. There is much less wear in the middle of the pipe.

I am somewhat concerned that when I put the hose clamps on I could accidentally crush the pipe.

So, I wonder, is there a practical way to 'repair' the pipe.

Here are some thoughts:

1. Remove the old tube and epoxy a new one in place.

I have several concerns about this approach. It is not clear to me that epoxy sticks super well to bronze. I only have access to one side of the repair. I could cause additional damage trying to get the old tube out. There would also only be limited surface area for the epoxy to mechanically bond to the existing polyester in the truck.

In summary, it seems like a tricky repair and it is not clear how strong it will be.

2. Epoxy a 1.5" OD fiberglass tube around the existing tube

I would attach the new tube with epoxy and fiberglass to the trunk so that it does not rely on the remaining integrity of the existing tube. I'd also fill the gap between the tubes with thickened epoxy. That is in part structural, but also keeps the water from pooling between the two pipes. Maybe not important, but can't hurt? It's sort of a belt and suspenders fix.

This is probably the strongest repair and is also fairly non-invasive. I am only adding stuff, not removing or cutting anything. I can't imagine how this repair could result in things being worse than when I started.

The 'problem' with this approach is that I now need a larger diameter hose to sleeve the pennant (one with a 1.5" ID). That is only a minor issue -- except that it will be too fat to fit through the holes in the wooden covers on top of the companionway stairs.

I considered trying to use a hose-mender (aka, hose reducer) to reduce the 1.5" ID hose to a 1" ID hose so that I would not have to cut a large hole in the boards, but I could not find one with those dimensions for sale.

So, this repair should work -- I just have to suck it up and cut the wood.

3. 4200 a smaller bronze tube inside the existing tube

This solution is perhaps the weakest. It would provide some extra support so that the hose clamps would not crush the outer pipe. But, the 4200 is flexible -- so it will still give some potential flex.

Also, finding a tube that can fit inside the existing tube might substantially reduce the ID making it harder to fit a wood/plastic bushing.?

The advantage of this solution is that I can use the same size hose. (One with a 1" ID).

This repair is also the least invasive. Because the tube inside is installed with 4200, it could be removed or replaced. So, I can always opt to use a different method later.

4. Remove the centerboard and glass over the trunk from the outside.

This most effectively solves the pennant tube issue -- but I am not ready to get rid of my centerboard.

5. <your idea here>

What do people generally do? Anyone have regrets or success?

- jeremy

#9588

It was Warren Stein who last did a fix for this that I am not remembering.

Good job Warren.

Caleb D.

T27 #328

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stein via Groups.Io <wrsteinesq@...>
To: T27Owners <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, Jan 13, 2020 10:09 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centerboard pennant fairlead tube repair

FWIW, the last thing you should do is give up your centerboard, especially over this issue.? There are several fixes worth doing.? ? Some T27 owners have changed over to Dyneema pennants.? These are believed to ‘saw’ less than the standard-issue stainless cable, which, when you think about it, is functionally the equivalent of a bandsaw blade when the centerboard drops.? I’m doing that Dyneema fix, but haven’t hit the water yet, so I can’t give you real-world feedback on that.? In any event, even as strong as Dyneeema is, I still plan on using something fairly stout, 3/16 or better, not for strength but for chafe.?

I ended up getting a bronze hose barb fitting, one with threads large enough to screw into the existing fiberglass stub, with a smaller hose barb thru which the Dyneema runs.? I certainly DID beef up the stub with fiberglass cloth, all around it and bonded to a large area on the trunk.? Since the ID of the hose barb was I think maybe 1/4” or maybe it was 5/16”, I taped it, filled it with epoxy impregnated with Teflon powder, and then drilled it out to 3/16”.? ? I took a dremel bit and essentially countersunk the bottom side of the epoxy, i.e. rounding its exit because as you raise/lower the board, the angle from the stub to the attachment point on the centerboard changes, which is probably what causes the chafe in the first place.? So the hope is, anyway, that what I’ve accomplished is a) to reduce the size of the hole thru which water can enter to about 3/16”, which SHOULD be mostly blocked by the 3/16” pennant anyway; and b) use a slippery pennant; and c) contour the exit so it chafes less when the angle changes.?

“Your mileage may vary,” but that was my solution.? ? Warren Stein, Hulls No. 90 and 535.?

> On Jan 13, 2020, at 9:35 PM, jeremy@... wrote:
>
> ?
> Ahoy,
>
> I am trying to figure out a reasonable way to repair the tube that pennant for the centerboard goes through.
>
> Mine has been partially sawed through. I know this is a common problem, but I am not sure what viable repairs exist. I searched the group but the results were not super illuminating.
>
> To prevent the problem from getting worse, I can fashion a bushing from wood or plastic so that any future rubbing happens there. I generally haul my boat for the winter, so I can inspect that every year (and replace as needed).
>
> But, I am not sure how concerned I should be about the existing wear on the pipe. The wear is worst at the top and bottom. At the top you can see the backside of the threads of the nipple. There is much less wear in the middle of the pipe.
>
> I am somewhat concerned that when I put the hose clamps on I could accidentally crush the pipe.
>
> So, I wonder, is there a practical way to 'repair' the pipe.
>
> Here are some thoughts:
>
> 1. Remove the old tube and epoxy a new one in place.
>
> I have several concerns about this approach. It is not clear to me that epoxy sticks super well to bronze. I only have access to one side of the repair. I could cause additional damage trying to get the old tube out. There would also only be limited surface area for the epoxy to mechanically bond to the existing polyester in the truck.
>
> In summary, it seems like a tricky repair and it is not clear how strong it will be.
>
> 2. Epoxy a 1.5" OD fiberglass tube around the existing tube
>
> I would attach the new tube with epoxy and fiberglass to the trunk so that it does not rely on the remaining integrity of the existing tube. I'd also fill the gap between the tubes with thickened epoxy. That is in part structural, but also keeps the water from pooling between the two pipes. Maybe not important, but can't hurt? It's sort of a belt and suspenders fix.
>
> This is probably the strongest repair and is also fairly non-invasive. I am only adding stuff, not removing or cutting anything. I can't imagine how this repair could result in things being worse than when I started.
>
> The 'problem' with this approach is that I now need a larger diameter hose to sleeve the pennant (one with a 1.5" ID). That is only a minor issue -- except that it will be too fat to fit through the holes in the wooden covers on top of the companionway stairs.
>
> I considered trying to use a hose-mender (aka, hose reducer) to reduce the 1.5" ID hose to a 1" ID hose so that I would not have to cut a large hole in the boards, but I could not find one with those dimensions for sale.
>
> So, this repair should work -- I just have to suck it up and cut the wood.
>
> 3. 4200 a smaller bronze tube inside the existing tube
>
> This solution is perhaps the weakest. It would provide some extra support so that the hose clamps would not crush the outer pipe. But, the 4200 is flexible -- so it will still give some potential flex.
>
> Also, finding a tube that can fit inside the existing tube might substantially reduce the ID making it harder to fit a wood/plastic bushing.
>
> The advantage of this solution is that I can use the same size hose. (One with a 1" ID).
>
> This repair is also the least invasive. Because the tube inside is installed with 4200, it could be removed or replaced. So, I can always opt to use a different method later.
>
> 4. Remove the centerboard and glass over the trunk from the outside.
>
> This most effectively solves the pennant tube issue -- but I am not ready to get rid of my centerboard.
>
> 5. <your idea here>
>
> What do people generally do? Anyone have regrets or success?
>
> - jeremy
>
>

#9589

FWIW, I am definitely keeping the centerboard. I just spent a huge amount of time doing repairs to the centerboard itself, so it's going in there one way or another.

I think I understand what you did, but I have a few questions about the details.

I assume you still need some sort of hose around the pennant to contain the water that does leak in. Is the new hose much smaller and slips onto the new hose barb? Or do you still use a 1" hose and force it over the entire hose barb and clamp it to the old pipe?

It sounds like you added fiberglass on the outside of the tube? I considered that, but was concerned that it might create uneven surfaces resulting in the hose leaking. Perhaps the hose should be squishy enough that once the clamps are on there it will fill any unevenness. But, I lack the experience to know if that is true or not. I could be overthinking it.

Of course, if you are clamping onto your new hose barb and not the old pipe, that is not a concern for you. But, I am considering just reinforcing the outside with some fiberglass and epoxy and then making a bushing that fits inside the existing tube for the wire to rub on.

In a battle of SS vs Bronze -- bronze is sure to lose. But I am concerned about the chaffing with Dyneema. For rigging -- the Dyneema is exposed so it can be inspected. But in this case, it is all hidden away and not easy to inspect without hauling the boat?

?- jeremy

Show quoted text

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 9:09 PM Warren Stein via Groups.Io <wrsteinesq=[email protected]> wrote:

FWIW, the last thing you should do is give up your centerboard, especially over this issue.? ?There are several fixes worth doing.? ? Some T27 owners have changed over to Dyneema pennants.? These are believed to ‘saw’ less than the standard-issue stainless cable, which, when you think about it, is functionally the equivalent of a bandsaw blade when the centerboard drops.? ?I’m doing that Dyneema fix, but haven’t hit the water yet, so I can’t give you real-world feedback on that.? ?In any event, even as strong as Dyneeema is, I still plan on using something fairly stout, 3/16 or better, not for strength but for chafe.? ?

I ended up getting a bronze hose barb fitting, one with threads large enough to screw into the existing fiberglass stub, with a smaller hose barb thru which the Dyneema runs.? I certainly DID beef up the stub with fiberglass cloth, all around it and bonded to a large area on the trunk.? ?Since the ID of the hose barb was I think maybe 1/4” or maybe it was 5/16”, I taped it, filled it with epoxy impregnated with Teflon powder, and then drilled it out to 3/16”.? ? I took a dremel bit and essentially countersunk the bottom side of the epoxy, i.e. rounding its exit because as you raise/lower the board, the angle from the stub to the attachment point on the centerboard changes, which is probably what causes the chafe in the first place.? ?So the hope is, anyway, that what I’ve accomplished is a) to reduce the size of the hole thru which water can enter to about 3/16”, which SHOULD be mostly blocked by the 3/16” pennant anyway; and b) use a slippery pennant; and c) contour the exit so it chafes less when the angle changes.? ?

“Your mileage may vary,” but that was my solution.? ? Warren Stein, Hulls No. 90 and 535.? ?
> On Jan 13, 2020, at 9:35 PM, jeremy@... wrote:
>
> ?
> Ahoy,
>
> I am trying to figure out a reasonable way to repair the tube that pennant for the centerboard goes through.
>
> Mine has been partially sawed through. I know this is a common problem, but I am not sure what viable repairs exist. I searched the group but the results were not super illuminating.
>
> To prevent the problem from getting worse, I can fashion a bushing from wood or plastic so that any future rubbing happens there. I generally haul my boat for the winter, so I can inspect that every year (and replace as needed).
>
> But, I am not sure how concerned I should be about the existing wear on the pipe. The wear is worst at the top and bottom. At the top you can see the backside of the threads of the nipple. There is much less wear in the middle of the pipe.
>
> I am somewhat concerned that when I put the hose clamps on I could accidentally crush the pipe.
>
> So, I wonder, is there a practical way to 'repair' the pipe.
>
> Here are some thoughts:
>
> 1. Remove the old tube and epoxy a new one in place.
>
> I have several concerns about this approach. It is not clear to me that epoxy sticks super well to bronze. I only have access to one side of the repair. I could cause additional damage trying to get the old tube out. There would also only be limited surface area for the epoxy to mechanically bond to the existing polyester in the truck.
>
> In summary, it seems like a tricky repair and it is not clear how strong it will be.
>
> 2. Epoxy a 1.5" OD fiberglass tube around the existing tube
>
> I would attach the new tube with epoxy and fiberglass to the trunk so that it does not rely on the remaining integrity of the existing tube. I'd also fill the gap between the tubes with thickened epoxy. That is in part structural, but also keeps the water from pooling between the two pipes. Maybe not important, but can't hurt? It's sort of a belt and suspenders fix.
>
> This is probably the strongest repair and is also fairly non-invasive. I am only adding stuff, not removing or cutting anything. I can't imagine how this repair could result in things being worse than when I started.
>
> The 'problem' with this approach is that I now need a larger diameter hose to sleeve the pennant (one with a 1.5" ID). That is only a minor issue -- except that it will be too fat to fit through the holes in the wooden covers on top of the companionway stairs.
>
> I considered trying to use a hose-mender (aka, hose reducer) to reduce the 1.5" ID hose to a 1" ID hose so that I would not have to cut a large hole in the boards, but I could not find one with those dimensions for sale.
>
> So, this repair should work -- I just have to suck it up and cut the wood.
>
> 3. 4200 a smaller bronze tube inside the existing tube
>
> This solution is perhaps the weakest. It would provide some extra support so that the hose clamps would not crush the outer pipe. But, the 4200 is flexible -- so it will still give some potential flex.
>
> Also, finding a tube that can fit inside the existing tube might substantially reduce the ID making it harder to fit a wood/plastic bushing.
>
> The advantage of this solution is that I can use the same size hose. (One with a 1" ID).
>
> This repair is also the least invasive. Because the tube inside is installed with 4200, it could be removed or replaced. So, I can always opt to use a different method later.
>
> 4. Remove the centerboard and glass over the trunk from the outside.
>
> This most effectively solves the pennant tube issue -- but I am not ready to get rid of my centerboard.
>
> 5. <your idea here>
>
> What do people generally do? Anyone have regrets or success?
>
> - jeremy
>
>

#9590

开云体育

?The project isn’t finished yet, but my plan was to put a larger hose around the outside of the fiberglass stub. ?(It’s too late for me to do this, because I’ve already screwed-and-glued in the hose barb; but I suppose if it wasn’t in place I could use a hole saw over the stub, to cut it nice and round.). ?I am confident that I have smoothed it up quite well enough for a hose to securely attach. ?(Plug for the King Arthur Tools 2” grinder: ?expensive but it gets in places other tools can’t. ? Not sure how I lived this long without one.). Because I am a belt-and-suspenders guy, especially where things cannot readily be inspected, I have thought of a few ideas which have not yet been put into use. ? One of them is a tube-within-a-tube notion, i.e. using a short length of a low-friction tubing, maybe Pex, over the hose barb. ?I’m guessing that a heat gun, judiciously applied, may let me work it over the barb. ?Then there still will be the more conventional rubber hose over that, slid down over the fiberglass tub and held on with a pair of good stainless hose clamps, like AWABs. ? Since all of this is below the waterline, the idea of two hoses keeping water out of the boat rather than just one has its attractions, as does the idea of having the smallest hose necessary. ? Small holes admit MUCH less flow than larger ones. ? At the upper end, to keep the inner tubing centered in the rubber hose, I will likely use a hole saw to cut a disc out of a piece of some scrap G10 fiberglass plate, sized so the OD of the disc is the ID of the rubber hose; and the hole in the middle of the disc is the OD of the Pex. ?Another hose clamp to keep it compressed in place. ?My view is that once the pennant emerges from the stub, it’s a straight line to the winch and that angle doesn’t change. ?It’s from the bottom of the stub to the centerboard that’s the chafing problem.

Also, I’ve come across some chafe guard tubing. ?It’s made by New England Ropes, and it’s a woven Dyneema tube, and it comes in different sizes. ? I just ordered some from shopsoundboatworks.com. ?I ordered both the extra small (NER1930-04), fits 3-4mm or 1/8-5/32; as well as the small (NER1930-06), fits 3/16-5/16. ? It’s fairly cheap, like a buck-and-change per foot; ?and I see no reason to use more than about 8’, from the attachment to the centerboard to wherever it emerges from the stub, or maybe in my idea, where it emerges from the inner tubing. ? ?I’ve read that it may run small, so I’m unsure of which size to use, so it was cheaper to order both than to pay UPS twice. Either way, the idea is to have a Dyneema centerboard pennant contained within a Dyneema chafe sleeve. ? And then to have that run in a tube-in-a-hose. ?Like I said, belt AND suspenders; but it IS to contain a hole in the bottom of the boat, so overkill is certainly appropriate.

I don’t see why any of this wouldn’t work, but I haven’t yet actually done this part, FWIW. ??

Show quoted text

On Jan 13, 2020, at 11:10 PM, jeremy@... wrote:

?
FWIW, I am definitely keeping the centerboard. I just spent a huge amount of time doing repairs to the centerboard itself, so it's going in there one way or another.

I think I understand what you did, but I have a few questions about the details.

I assume you still need some sort of hose around the pennant to contain the water that does leak in. Is the new hose much smaller and slips onto the new hose barb? Or do you still use a 1" hose and force it over the entire hose barb and clamp it to the old pipe?

It sounds like you added fiberglass on the outside of the tube? I considered that, but was concerned that it might create uneven surfaces resulting in the hose leaking. Perhaps the hose should be squishy enough that once the clamps are on there it will fill any unevenness. But, I lack the experience to know if that is true or not. I could be overthinking it.
Of course, if you are clamping onto your new hose barb and not the old pipe, that is not a concern for you. But, I am considering just reinforcing the outside with some fiberglass and epoxy and then making a bushing that fits inside the existing tube for the wire to rub on.

In a battle of SS vs Bronze -- bronze is sure to lose. But I am concerned about the chaffing with Dyneema. For rigging -- the Dyneema is exposed so it can be inspected. But in this case, it is all hidden away and not easy to inspect without hauling the boat?

?- jeremy

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 9:09 PM Warren Stein via Groups.Io <wrsteinesq=[email protected]> wrote:
FWIW, the last thing you should do is give up your centerboard, especially over this issue.? ?There are several fixes worth doing.? ? Some T27 owners have changed over to Dyneema pennants.? These are believed to ‘saw’ less than the standard-issue stainless cable, which, when you think about it, is functionally the equivalent of a bandsaw blade when the centerboard drops.? ?I’m doing that Dyneema fix, but haven’t hit the water yet, so I can’t give you real-world feedback on that.? ?In any event, even as strong as Dyneeema is, I still plan on using something fairly stout, 3/16 or better, not for strength but for chafe.? ?

I ended up getting a bronze hose barb fitting, one with threads large enough to screw into the existing fiberglass stub, with a smaller hose barb thru which the Dyneema runs.? I certainly DID beef up the stub with fiberglass cloth, all around it and bonded to a large area on the trunk.? ?Since the ID of the hose barb was I think maybe 1/4” or maybe it was 5/16”, I taped it, filled it with epoxy impregnated with Teflon powder, and then drilled it out to 3/16”.? ? I took a dremel bit and essentially countersunk the bottom side of the epoxy, i.e. rounding its exit because as you raise/lower the board, the angle from the stub to the attachment point on the centerboard changes, which is probably what causes the chafe in the first place.? ?So the hope is, anyway, that what I’ve accomplished is a) to reduce the size of the hole thru which water can enter to about 3/16”, which SHOULD be mostly blocked by the 3/16” pennant anyway; and b) use a slippery pennant; and c) contour the exit so it chafes less when the angle changes.? ?

“Your mileage may vary,” but that was my solution.? ? Warren Stein, Hulls No. 90 and 535.? ?
> On Jan 13, 2020, at 9:35 PM, jeremy@... wrote:
>
> ?
> Ahoy,
>
> I am trying to figure out a reasonable way to repair the tube that pennant for the centerboard goes through.
>
> Mine has been partially sawed through. I know this is a common problem, but I am not sure what viable repairs exist. I searched the group but the results were not super illuminating.
>
> To prevent the problem from getting worse, I can fashion a bushing from wood or plastic so that any future rubbing happens there. I generally haul my boat for the winter, so I can inspect that every year (and replace as needed).
>
> But, I am not sure how concerned I should be about the existing wear on the pipe. The wear is worst at the top and bottom. At the top you can see the backside of the threads of the nipple. There is much less wear in the middle of the pipe.
>
> I am somewhat concerned that when I put the hose clamps on I could accidentally crush the pipe.
>
> So, I wonder, is there a practical way to 'repair' the pipe.
>
> Here are some thoughts:
>
> 1. Remove the old tube and epoxy a new one in place.
>
> I have several concerns about this approach. It is not clear to me that epoxy sticks super well to bronze. I only have access to one side of the repair. I could cause additional damage trying to get the old tube out. There would also only be limited surface area for the epoxy to mechanically bond to the existing polyester in the truck.
>
> In summary, it seems like a tricky repair and it is not clear how strong it will be.
>
> 2. Epoxy a 1.5" OD fiberglass tube around the existing tube
>
> I would attach the new tube with epoxy and fiberglass to the trunk so that it does not rely on the remaining integrity of the existing tube. I'd also fill the gap between the tubes with thickened epoxy. That is in part structural, but also keeps the water from pooling between the two pipes. Maybe not important, but can't hurt? It's sort of a belt and suspenders fix.
>
> This is probably the strongest repair and is also fairly non-invasive. I am only adding stuff, not removing or cutting anything. I can't imagine how this repair could result in things being worse than when I started.
>
> The 'problem' with this approach is that I now need a larger diameter hose to sleeve the pennant (one with a 1.5" ID). That is only a minor issue -- except that it will be too fat to fit through the holes in the wooden covers on top of the companionway stairs.
>
> I considered trying to use a hose-mender (aka, hose reducer) to reduce the 1.5" ID hose to a 1" ID hose so that I would not have to cut a large hole in the boards, but I could not find one with those dimensions for sale.
>
> So, this repair should work -- I just have to suck it up and cut the wood.
>
> 3. 4200 a smaller bronze tube inside the existing tube
>
> This solution is perhaps the weakest. It would provide some extra support so that the hose clamps would not crush the outer pipe. But, the 4200 is flexible -- so it will still give some potential flex.
>
> Also, finding a tube that can fit inside the existing tube might substantially reduce the ID making it harder to fit a wood/plastic bushing.
>
> The advantage of this solution is that I can use the same size hose. (One with a 1" ID).
>
> This repair is also the least invasive. Because the tube inside is installed with 4200, it could be removed or replaced. So, I can always opt to use a different method later.
>
> 4. Remove the centerboard and glass over the trunk from the outside.
>
> This most effectively solves the pennant tube issue -- but I am not ready to get rid of my centerboard.
>
> 5. <your idea here>
>
> What do people generally do? Anyone have regrets or success?
>
> - jeremy
>
>

#9591

I installed a brass insert ( something from the plumbing section of the hardware store)and ss wire.  It was a long time ago and I don’t recall having any difficulties with installing the insert. 

If I find any more details I’ll let you know. 

—Bill Ackerman 
#327 Duette

#9592

Ahoy!

Here is my updated plan:

Short Version:

I am going to fit a red brass tube inside the existing tube. I am going to add a little extra glass and epoxy on the outside of the tube, but only a little so that I can continue to use a 1" hose. I will fashion a white oak bushing to center the cable in the tube and prevent additional wear and tear. My boat is generally hauled for the winter. When I get back to Chicago where I have access to machining tools, I may fashion a bushing out of UHMW-PE.

Long Version:

The inner diameter of the existing fairlead pipe is 0.80". A 3/4" red brass pipe like this one has an outer diameter of 13/16" of an inch -- aka, 0.8125",

Since it is only a little too fat to fit, I think with a drill, some sandpaper, and a nice movie, I could sand it down it to fit.

It seems that 'bronze tubing' has gone out of fashion -- but that (some) red brass is acceptable for use in marine environments. It is also rumored that much 'bronze' was really 'red brass' anyway. Since I am using this to sleeve an existing tube not replace it entirely, red brass should sufficient.

For 3x the cost I could get the schedule 80 version which has the same OD, but a thicker wall,

While I expect the fit to be snug -- I am not aiming for an interference fitting. In other words, I am not expecting pure friction to hold it in place. Instead I am expecting to use a sealant to bond the inside tube into the outside tube. Because I would like to be able to remove the inside tube and replace it later, I do not want permanent bond. I am thinking that perhaps a polysulfide sealant like Lifecaulk should be sufficient to keep it from sliding out when the centerboard is being raised.

The inside tube should provide mechanical support for the outertube so that the hose clamps will not be able to crush the outertube where the cable has worn a groove.

I will probably also make the inside tube a little longer than the outside tube so that I can get a pipe wrench on it and remove it later if needed.

In addition to sleeving the inside of the tube, I will also fillet some epoxy around the based of the existing tube, fair it, and epoxy a layer or two of fiberglass around the outside of the existing tube and bond it to the centerboard trunk. This will serve to strengthen the connection between the existing tube the hull. Since the SS cable has sawed into the hull a little bit at the base of the tube, it seems like it shouldn't hurt to add a bit more enforcement.

My primary concern is that if I put too much epoxy/fiberglass on the outside of the tube, the 1" ID hose may not fit correctly and will leak. Or, if I add too much thickness, the hose will not longer fit over the tubing.

In order to protect the inside tube from the same fate as the original tube I will fashion a donut for the cable to run through and grease it with water pump grease. This 'fix' is described in the Tartan 27 Handbook.

This is also a good time to replace the hose that pennant runs through. Though I am not really sure what is sufficient. At the moment I am looking at this,

Summary:

This repair strengthens the existing tubing from the inside and the outside and increases is bond strength to the hull. It does so in a way that preserves the existing tube, so it should only be stronger, not weaker. It also allows me to continue using the same size hose.

The biggest risk is that I will not be able to shape the new tube to fit properly in the existing tube.

Any thoughts?

If you look through this album, there are a few photos of the damage to the existing tubing. I can take better photos if it makes a difference.

- jeremy

Show quoted text

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 8:35 PM jeremy via Groups.Io <jeremy=[email protected]> wrote:

Ahoy,

I am trying to figure out a reasonable way to repair the tube that pennant for the centerboard goes through.

Mine has been partially sawed through. I know this is a common problem, but I am not sure what viable repairs exist. I searched the group but the results were not super illuminating.

To prevent the problem from getting worse, I can fashion a bushing from wood or plastic so that any future rubbing happens there. I generally haul my boat for the winter, so I can inspect that every year (and replace as needed).

But, I am not sure how concerned I should be about the existing wear on the pipe. The wear is worst at the top and bottom. At the top you can see the backside of the threads of the nipple. There is much less wear in the middle of the pipe.

I am somewhat concerned that when I put the hose clamps on I could accidentally crush the pipe.

So, I wonder, is there a practical way to 'repair' the pipe.

Here are some thoughts:

1. Remove the old tube and epoxy a new one in place.

I have several concerns about this approach. It is not clear to me that epoxy sticks super well to bronze. I only have access to one side of the repair. I could cause additional damage trying to get the old tube out. There would also only be limited surface area for the epoxy to mechanically bond to the existing polyester in the truck.

In summary, it seems like a tricky repair and it is not clear how strong it will be.

2. Epoxy a 1.5" OD fiberglass tube around the existing tube

I would attach the new tube with epoxy and fiberglass to the trunk so that it does not rely on the remaining integrity of the existing tube. I'd also fill the gap between the tubes with thickened epoxy. That is in part structural, but also keeps the water from pooling between the two pipes. Maybe not important, but can't hurt? It's sort of a belt and suspenders fix.

This is probably the strongest repair and is also fairly non-invasive. I am only adding stuff, not removing or cutting anything. I can't imagine how this repair could result in things being worse than when I started.

The 'problem' with this approach is that I now need a larger diameter hose to sleeve the pennant (one with a 1.5" ID). That is only a minor issue -- except that it will be too fat to fit through the holes in the wooden covers on top of the companionway stairs.

I considered trying to use a hose-mender (aka, hose reducer) to reduce the 1.5" ID hose to a 1" ID hose so that I would not have to cut a large hole in the boards, but I could not find one with those dimensions for sale.

So, this repair should work -- I just have to suck it up and cut the wood.

3. 4200 a smaller bronze tube inside the existing tube

This solution is perhaps the weakest. It would provide some extra support so that the hose clamps would not crush the outer pipe. But, the 4200 is flexible -- so it will still give some potential flex.

Also, finding a tube that can fit inside the existing tube might substantially reduce the ID making it harder to fit a wood/plastic bushing.?

The advantage of this solution is that I can use the same size hose. (One with a 1" ID).

This repair is also the least invasive. Because the tube inside is installed with 4200, it could be removed or replaced. So, I can always opt to use a different method later.

4. Remove the centerboard and glass over the trunk from the outside.

This most effectively solves the pennant tube issue -- but I am not ready to get rid of my centerboard.

5. <your idea here>

What do people generally do? Anyone have regrets or success?

- jeremy

#9603

Pegasus hose reducer Silicone PN?SR38.25-BLACK

amazon.com/Pegasus-SR38-25-BLACK-Silicone-Straight-Reducer/dp/B00OR2CCU8/ref=sr_1_38?ascsubtag=1ba00-01000-a0047-win70-other-smile-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-wm-5&keywords=silicone+hose+reducer&qid=1579613315&sr=8-38
--
Carl Damm
DAMSELv
1976 #593
Stuart Fl

#9604

The original hose was heater hose.? Marine exhaust is an excellent choice.? Also consider silicone exhaust and corrugated exhaust hose.? All have their good points.? I always use exhaust hose for any critical below water connections.
--
Carl Damm
DAMSELv
1976 #593
Stuart Fl

#9605

Does someone know the dimensions of the inside of the tube. I am looking at a product called alumina. It is highly abrasion resistant . It actually comes in tube form . Was thinkig of sliding one tube form inside brass tube and using dynema . Surface of alumina would act like a slick surface for pennant to ride against it . Rubber sleeve would go right over brass tube as normal

Show quoted text

On Jan 21, 2020, at 8:44 AM, Carl Damm <cfdamm@...> wrote:

?The original hose was heater hose.  Marine exhaust is an excellent choice.  Also consider silicone exhaust and corrugated exhaust hose.  All have their good points.  I always use exhaust hose for any critical below water connections.
-- 
Carl Damm
DAMSELv
1976 #593
Stuart Fl

#9606

Anything to reduce friction is good; but the real abrasion issue as I understand it isn't the pennant in whatever tube it's in.? Instead, it's where the pennant exits the tube at the bottom, inside the centerboard trunk.?? As the CB is raised and lowered, the angle of the lead changes, causing the pennant to chafe on the lower edge of the tube.? I think that's where the wear is happening.?? So if I'm right, the important thing would be to contour that lower exit point so it's rounded and doesn't have any sharp edges.?? There may also be some wear at the upper edge, as the angle changes; but primarily at the lower end...? I think.??

Warren Stein

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill talbot via Groups.Io <talbot.bill@...>
To: T27Owners <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2020 9:28 am
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centerboard pennant fairlead tube repair

Does someone know the dimensions of the inside of the tube. I am looking at a product called alumina. It is highly abrasion resistant . It actually comes in tube form . Was thinkig of sliding one tube form inside brass tube and using dynema . Surface of alumina would act like a slick surface for pennant to ride against it . Rubber sleeve would go right over brass tube as normal

> On Jan 21, 2020, at 8:44 AM, Carl Damm <cfdamm@...> wrote:
>
> ?The original hose was heater hose.? Marine exhaust is an excellent choice.? Also consider silicone exhaust and corrugated exhaust hose.? All have their good points.? I always use exhaust hose for any critical below water connections.
> --
> Carl Damm
> DAMSELv
> 1976 #593
> Stuart Fl

#9607

I can confirm that the chaffing is definitely worst at the top and bottom of the tube.

Show quoted text

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:03 AM Warren Stein via Groups.Io <wrsteinesq=[email protected]> wrote:

Anything to reduce friction is good; but the real abrasion issue as I understand it isn't the pennant in whatever tube it's in.? Instead, it's where the pennant exits the tube at the bottom, inside the centerboard trunk.?? As the CB is raised and lowered, the angle of the lead changes, causing the pennant to chafe on the lower edge of the tube.? I think that's where the wear is happening.?? So if I'm right, the important thing would be to contour that lower exit point so it's rounded and doesn't have any sharp edges.?? There may also be some wear at the upper edge, as the angle changes; but primarily at the lower end...? I think.??

Warren Stein

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill talbot via Groups.Io <talbot.bill=[email protected]>
To: T27Owners <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, Jan 21, 2020 9:28 am
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centerboard pennant fairlead tube repair

Does someone know the dimensions of the inside of the tube. I am looking at a product called alumina. It is highly abrasion resistant . It actually comes in tube form . Was thinkig of sliding one tube form inside brass tube and using dynema . Surface of alumina would act like a slick surface for pennant to ride against it . Rubber sleeve would go right over brass tube as normal

> On Jan 21, 2020, at 8:44 AM, Carl Damm <cfdamm@...> wrote:
>
> ?The original hose was heater hose.? Marine exhaust is an excellent choice.? Also consider silicone exhaust and corrugated exhaust hose.? All have their good points.? I always use exhaust hose for any critical below water connections.
> --
> Carl Damm
> DAMSELv
> 1976 #593
> Stuart Fl

#9608

I just filed down a red brass tube to fit inside the existing tube. The OD of the insert is now 0.834" or 21.18mm.

This is the tube I used,

It was originally 0.838" in OD -- so I didn't have to take it down much. Even after grinding it down, the wall thickness is 0.111"

I'm still trying to figure out what I could put inside the inner tube to help protect it. Or maybe I just let the cable file away on it and replace it once every couple decades.

Rather than repair the exit point of the tube where it got worn away, I added more glass and thickened epoxy on the inside of the boat to compensate.? Seemed wisest to ride the horse in the direction it was already going.?

Here is a photo album -- I'll try to add a better photo of the damage at the bottom of the tube later. I also through in two photos with measures of the centerboard pin for good luck.

Note that I have not cut the insert tube down to length yet. I am going to make it just a little bit longer than the existing tube so that I can get a pipe wrench on it later to remove it. I am undecided if I am going to rely entirely on friction to keep it in place, or use weak adhesive, such as Life-Caulk (polysulfide).

To protect the insert from the cable I have considered:

?1. filling it with some sort of thickened epoxy -- and then drilling out a hole for the cable. But.. maybe there is a better substance for that than epoxy.

?2. creating a white oak or UHMW-PE 'donut' that sits on top and helps keep the cable centered. UHME-PE is supposed to be very abrasion resistant but also slippery. Both the white oak and the UHMW-PE will swell up when wet, so neither should be tight fitting.

I have two other mild concerns:

? 1. That the expansion rate of the inside tube due to heat will be different enough from the outside tube that it will cause the outside tube to crack. I could perhaps file the inside tube down more and then rely on a sealant to account for the varying expansion rates.

? 2. That the differences between the existing bronze tube and red brass tube will result in the existing tube being weakened due to dezincification? galvanize corrosion?

If the inside tube gets weakened that is ok. If it crumbles to bits, the outside tube should still have enough integrity to prevent the boat from sinking. But if the outside tube starts crumbling away, that would be bad.

My hope is that since the tubes are more alike than different, neither of those issues is a concern.? I would prefer a real bronze tube, but red brass was the closest I could get. Some rumors say that much of what was sold as 'bronze tube' was really red brass anyway.

Red brass has much less zinc than yellow brass.

?- jeremy

Show quoted text

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 8:28 AM Bill talbot via Groups.Io <talbot.bill=[email protected]> wrote:

Does someone know the dimensions of the inside of the tube. I am looking at a product called alumina. It is highly abrasion resistant . It actually comes in tube form . Was thinkig of sliding one tube form inside brass tube and using dynema . Surface of alumina would act like a slick surface for pennant to ride against it . Rubber sleeve would go right over brass tube as normal
> On Jan 21, 2020, at 8:44 AM, Carl Damm <cfdamm@...> wrote:
>
> ?The original hose was heater hose.? Marine exhaust is an excellent choice.? Also consider silicone exhaust and corrugated exhaust hose.? All have their good points.? I always use exhaust hose for any critical below water connections.
> --
> Carl Damm
> DAMSELv
> 1976 #593
> Stuart Fl

#9609

I've seen the hose reducers -- but I am not quite sure I understand how best to use them. It seems useful for connecting a large rigid tube to a smaller rigid tube. But if you are trying to go from large rigid tube to a smaller hose -- clamping a hose on a hose seems like trouble. I guess you'd also need some sort of nipple for the reducer and hose to slip over?

?- jeremy

Show quoted text

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 7:31 AM Carl Damm <cfdamm@...> wrote:

Pegasus hose reducer Silicone PN?SR38.25-BLACK

--
Carl Damm
DAMSELv
1976 #593
Stuart Fl

#9628

Yes a nipple would be required. It is a compromise. Connections below the water line.?
You could run a pipe from the reducer up to the winch and skip the smaller hose.?
Then we could discuss the best kind of pipe. PVC 80 or 120: fiberglass exhast pipe. Bronze....?
--
Carl Damm
DAMSELv
1976 #593
Stuart Fl