Re: OT Maybe? Hand cleaners
Best one I’ve found is Fast Orange. Seems to remove most anything. I’d be interested in other’s experiences ? Jim Setterberg ?
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Re: OT Maybe? Hand cleaners
I read somewhere that if you live at the East of London (the original one) your perfectly drinkable tap water has neen through about 7 people before you.
(If we put OT at the start of a post, can we talk about anything at all that we might want to ramble about?)
Eddie
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-------- Original message -------- From: Nick Andrews <nickjandrews@...> Date: 10/03/2023 17:40 (GMT+00:00) Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] OT Maybe? Hand cleaners
Some places these days process their sewage into drinking water, and that is likely to become much more common.? In I think San Fran they at least used to us water hyacinth plants towards the end to suck all the nitrates out of the water.
Not sure about ads, but the best Pres of my lifetime was an actor. RIP, Ronnie!
Oh yeah, gasoline is a great parts cleaner!
I have (maybe crazy) aspirations of building a steam loco at some point.? Not full size but rideable...
Can't put fine plastic beads in hand cleaner nowadays, as after passing through the sewage works, they end up in the ocean. The whole point of using plastic was that it is neutral bouyancy so didn't settle out in U bends in sinks etc. like sand does, and therefore it didn't settle out at the sewage works either, passing straight through into the river. They tend to use pumice dust nowadays.
In my work as an engineering consultant I have visited many industrial premises and therefore used many different hand cleaners supplied on site. One was a paste that needed a little water added before rubbing, but it worked well. No idea of the name, but it needed its own unique dispensers (pull a lever sideways). My railway now uses the best gel I have ever used, tiny quantities needed, and it is called Cherry Bomb. I suspect it of being a USA product?
Didn't that ex B movie actor who went on to become a B movie president advertise something called Boraxo? Never saw it in the UK. Was that any good?
When I was about 3 (1957 or so), I used to "help" my dad fix engines, cars etc. We didn't even have Swarfega then. Used to use scouring powder (Vim or Ajax) and he would rub one of my little hands between his great shovels of appendages and rub till I scarcely had any skin left. Alternatively, it was a petrol (I believe an alternative term may be "gasoline") bath.
And if you think steelworks mill oil is evil, get yourself a locomotive. Steam oil is typically 680 or 100 centistokes, and there is ash, soot & coal dust everywhere. Alternatively, if your thing is main line Diesel electric locos, the traction motor gear cases are lubricated with something even worse, that needs warming to dispense it. It used to be called Motak or Regent made a product called Crater. Leaks would hang down in strings underneath and if you were walking along a pit, the only remedy to walking into one was to cut off the affected hair. Of course, a less carcinogenic product is now substituted, as those were full of asphaltenes.
Eddie
------ Original Message ------
From: "Rangelov" <rangelov@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 10 Mar, 23 At 16:21
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] OT Maybe? Hand cleaners
Nick,
It might been Kimberly-Clark (or Scott, same company now). Kimberly-Clark Professional Super Duty Hand Cleaner with Grit (no. 91388). The grit was fine plastic beads. The stuff WAS excellent hand cleaner.
It really dissolves grease. Rub into hands, rinse with a bit if water, keep rubbing, repeat. Your hands look like you are an office worker when done. Especially if you use a toothbrush, it is softer, gentler and gets at all the dirt.
It is no longer available. It had something in it that Californias law concerning cancer causing chemicals was identified.
91388 was used at Ford, where I worked at one time. I got some thru the rep that supplied Ford and from a local industrial supply house that was swallowed up by Grainger (and now I cannot buy from them).
I used to buy it in 4 one gallon cases (with pump on each gallon). I still have a gallon or two left. I use it sparingly, since there is no more left, anywhere else.
Regards, Dimitar
1a.
OT Maybe? Hand cleaners
From: Nick Andrews
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 14:54:31 PST
A while back, okay almost 20 years ago, a friend worked at Jorgenson Steel in Denver. You know how that mill oil on steel is... He and I and a roommate started a floor cleaning business and did the floors there at night. They had a hand cleaner in the locker rooms that from what I recall was a green powder, not a liquid, and it worked with or without water and did not leave your hands slippery, greasy or stinky at all. I'd forgotten about it until recently and cannot recall the name but it was amazing. Anyone have any ideas on what it might be and if it's even still made? It was not a typical household brand, more like an industrial supply type product you'd never see on a store shelf.
|
Re: OT Maybe? Hand cleaners
Some places these days process their sewage into drinking water, and that is likely to become much more common.? In I think San Fran they at least used to us water hyacinth plants towards the end to suck all the nitrates out of the water.
Not sure about ads, but the best Pres of my lifetime was an actor. RIP, Ronnie!
Oh yeah, gasoline is a great parts cleaner!
I have (maybe crazy) aspirations of building a steam loco at some point.? Not full size but rideable...
Can't put fine plastic beads in hand cleaner nowadays, as after passing through the sewage works, they end up in the ocean. The whole point of using plastic was that it is neutral bouyancy so didn't settle out in U bends in sinks etc. like sand does, and therefore it didn't settle out at the sewage works either, passing straight through into the river. They tend to use pumice dust nowadays.
In my work as an engineering consultant I have visited many industrial premises and therefore used many different hand cleaners supplied on site. One was a paste that needed a little water added before rubbing, but it worked well. No idea of the name, but it needed its own unique dispensers (pull a lever sideways). My railway now uses the best gel I have ever used, tiny quantities needed, and it is called Cherry Bomb. I suspect it of being a USA product?
Didn't that ex B movie actor who went on to become a B movie president advertise something called Boraxo? Never saw it in the UK. Was that any good?
When I was about 3 (1957 or so), I used to "help" my dad fix engines, cars etc. We didn't even have Swarfega then. Used to use scouring powder (Vim or Ajax) and he would rub one of my little hands between his great shovels of appendages and rub till I scarcely had any skin left. Alternatively, it was a petrol (I believe an alternative term may be "gasoline") bath.
And if you think steelworks mill oil is evil, get yourself a locomotive. Steam oil is typically 680 or 100 centistokes, and there is ash, soot & coal dust everywhere. Alternatively, if your thing is main line Diesel electric locos, the traction motor gear cases are lubricated with something even worse, that needs warming to dispense it. It used to be called Motak or Regent made a product called Crater. Leaks would hang down in strings underneath and if you were walking along a pit, the only remedy to walking into one was to cut off the affected hair. Of course, a less carcinogenic product is now substituted, as those were full of asphaltenes.
Eddie
------ Original Message ------
From: "Rangelov" <rangelov@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 10 Mar, 23 At 16:21
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] OT Maybe? Hand cleaners
Nick,
It might been Kimberly-Clark (or Scott, same company now). Kimberly-Clark Professional Super Duty Hand Cleaner with Grit (no. 91388). The grit was fine plastic beads. The stuff WAS excellent hand cleaner.
It really dissolves grease. Rub into hands, rinse with a bit if water, keep rubbing, repeat. Your hands look like you are an office worker when done. Especially if you use a toothbrush, it is softer, gentler and gets at all the dirt.
It is no longer available. It had something in it that Californias law concerning cancer causing chemicals was identified.
91388 was used at Ford, where I worked at one time. I got some thru the rep that supplied Ford and from a local industrial supply house that was swallowed up by Grainger (and now I cannot buy from them).
I used to buy it in 4 one gallon cases (with pump on each gallon). I still have a gallon or two left. I use it sparingly, since there is no more left, anywhere else.
Regards, Dimitar
1a.
OT Maybe? Hand cleaners
From: Nick Andrews
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 14:54:31 PST
A while back, okay almost 20 years ago, a friend worked at Jorgenson Steel in Denver. You know how that mill oil on steel is... He and I and a roommate started a floor cleaning business and did the floors there at night. They had a hand cleaner in the locker rooms that from what I recall was a green powder, not a liquid, and it worked with or without water and did not leave your hands slippery, greasy or stinky at all. I'd forgotten about it until recently and cannot recall the name but it was amazing. Anyone have any ideas on what it might be and if it's even still made? It was not a typical household brand, more like an industrial supply type product you'd never see on a store shelf.
|
Re: OT Maybe? Hand cleaners
Can't put fine plastic beads in hand cleaner nowadays, as after passing through the sewage works, they end up in the ocean. The whole point of using plastic was that it is neutral bouyancy so didn't settle out in U bends in sinks etc. like sand does, and therefore it didn't settle out at the sewage works either, passing straight through into the river. They tend to use pumice dust nowadays.
In my work as an engineering consultant I have visited many industrial premises and therefore used many different hand cleaners supplied on site. One was a paste that needed a little water added before rubbing, but it worked well. No idea of the name, but it needed its own unique dispensers (pull a lever sideways). My railway now uses the best gel I have ever used, tiny quantities needed, and it is called Cherry Bomb. I suspect it of being a USA product?
Didn't that ex B movie actor who went on to become a B movie president advertise something called Boraxo? Never saw it in the UK. Was that any good?
When I was about 3 (1957 or so), I used to "help" my dad fix engines, cars etc. We didn't even have Swarfega then. Used to use scouring powder (Vim or Ajax) and he would rub one of my little hands between his great shovels of appendages and rub till I scarcely had any skin left. Alternatively, it was a petrol (I believe an alternative term may be "gasoline") bath.
And if you think steelworks mill oil is evil, get yourself a locomotive. Steam oil is typically 680 or 100 centistokes, and there is ash, soot & coal dust everywhere. Alternatively, if your thing is main line Diesel electric locos, the traction motor gear cases are lubricated with something even worse, that needs warming to dispense it. It used to be called Motak or Regent made a product called Crater. Leaks would hang down in strings underneath and if you were walking along a pit, the only remedy to walking into one was to cut off the affected hair. Of course, a less carcinogenic product is now substituted, as those were full of asphaltenes.
Eddie
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Show quoted text
------ Original Message ------
From: "Rangelov" <rangelov@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 10 Mar, 23 At 16:21
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] OT Maybe? Hand cleaners
Nick,
It might been Kimberly-Clark (or Scott, same company now). Kimberly-Clark Professional Super Duty Hand Cleaner with Grit (no. 91388). The grit was fine plastic beads. The stuff WAS excellent hand cleaner.
It really dissolves grease. Rub into hands, rinse with a bit if water, keep rubbing, repeat. Your hands look like you are an office worker when done. Especially if you use a toothbrush, it is softer, gentler and gets at all the dirt.
It is no longer available. It had something in it that Californias law concerning cancer causing chemicals was identified.
91388 was used at Ford, where I worked at one time. I got some thru the rep that supplied Ford and from a local industrial supply house that was swallowed up by Grainger (and now I cannot buy from them).
I used to buy it in 4 one gallon cases (with pump on each gallon). I still have a gallon or two left. I use it sparingly, since there is no more left, anywhere else.
Regards, Dimitar
1a.
OT Maybe? Hand cleaners
From: Nick Andrews
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 14:54:31 PST
A while back, okay almost 20 years ago, a friend worked at Jorgenson Steel in Denver. You know how that mill oil on steel is... He and I and a roommate started a floor cleaning business and did the floors there at night. They had a hand cleaner in the locker rooms that from what I recall was a green powder, not a liquid, and it worked with or without water and did not leave your hands slippery, greasy or stinky at all. I'd forgotten about it until recently and cannot recall the name but it was amazing. Anyone have any ideas on what it might be and if it's even still made? It was not a typical household brand, more like an industrial supply type product you'd never see on a store shelf.
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Re: [BridgeportMill] OT Maybe? Hand cleaners
Zep "Cherry Bomb" is my current favorite.?? Use it like a waterless hand cleaner, and then rinse it off. If you wet your hands first, it doesn't stick well enough, and most of it just goes down the sink.? Smells nice, and seems to really get the grease out of the pores. I don't tend to like waterless cleaners - they leave a strong chemical smell behind.? ? -Tom ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nick Andrews
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2023 4:54 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: [BridgeportMill] OT Maybe? Hand cleaners ? A while back, okay almost 20 years ago, a friend worked at Jorgenson Steel in Denver.? You know how that mill oil on steel is...?? He and I and a roommate started a floor cleaning business and did the floors there at night.? They had a hand cleaner in the locker rooms that from what I recall was a green powder, not a liquid, and it worked with or without water and did not leave your hands slippery, greasy or stinky at all.? I'd forgotten about it until recently and cannot recall the name but it was amazing.? Anyone have any ideas on what it might be and if it's even still made?? It was not a typical household brand, more like an industrial supply type product you'd never see on a store shelf. I see Mean Green that looks like a crumbly paste, but it looks different.? Any ideas?
|
Re: OT Maybe? Hand cleaners
Nick,
It might been Kimberly-Clark (or Scott, same company now). Kimberly-Clark Professional Super Duty Hand Cleaner with Grit (no. 91388). The grit was fine plastic beads. The stuff WAS excellent hand cleaner.
It really dissolves grease. Rub into hands, rinse with a bit if water, keep rubbing, repeat. Your hands look like you are an office worker when done. Especially if you use a toothbrush, it is softer, gentler and gets at all the dirt.
It is no longer available. It had something in it that Californias law concerning cancer causing chemicals was identified.
91388 was used at Ford, where I worked at one time. I got some thru the rep that supplied Ford and from a local industrial supply house that was swallowed up by Grainger (and now I cannot buy from them).
I used to buy it in 4 one gallon cases (with pump on each gallon). I still have a gallon or two left. I use it sparingly, since there is no more left, anywhere else.
Regards, Dimitar
1a.
OT Maybe? Hand cleaners
From: Nick Andrews
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 14:54:31 PST
A while back, okay almost 20 years ago, a friend worked at Jorgenson Steel in Denver.? You know how that mill oil on steel is...?? He and I and a roommate started a floor cleaning business and did the floors there at night.? They had a hand cleaner in the locker rooms that from what I recall was a green powder, not a liquid, and it worked with or without water and did not leave your hands slippery, greasy or stinky at all.? I'd forgotten about it until recently and cannot recall the name but it was amazing.? Anyone have any ideas on what it might be and if it's even still made?? It was not a typical household brand, more like an industrial supply type product you'd never see on a store shelf.
|
A while back, okay almost 20 years ago, a friend worked at Jorgenson Steel in Denver.? You know how that mill oil on steel is...?? He and I and a roommate started a floor cleaning business and did the floors there at night.? They had a hand cleaner in the locker rooms that from what I recall was a green powder, not a liquid, and it worked with or without water and did not leave your hands slippery, greasy or stinky at all.? I'd forgotten about it until recently and cannot recall the name but it was amazing.? Anyone have any ideas on what it might be and if it's even still made?? It was not a typical household brand, more like an industrial supply type product you'd never see on a store shelf.
I see Mean Green that looks like a crumbly paste, but it looks different.? Any ideas?
|
Re: FS: Baldor Motor and TECO drive combo for your lathe or other machines
I started with a 600 oz-in stepper motor on the knee with 3:1 reduction.? It worked but limited to about 10ipm.? So I updated to 1200 oz-in motor and a Gecko stepper drive.? Ran that with my ELS Z axis for years to avoid hand cranking the knee but max 25ipm. ? I had replaced the bushings with bearings so the horizontal shaft to bevel gears had very little backlash. ? When I went CNC (dual boot MACH3 and LinuxCNC) to fancy break out board I used the DC servos I had bought a decade before along with HP_UHU Servo Driver kits.? Encoders from US Digital.? The encoders turned out to be sensitive to noise.? I replaced them with CUI ones.? Still I'd occasionally lose position on the X axis and screw up the part. ?One motor always was warmer than the other.? When I measure winding resistance I found the one that lost position was about twice the resistance.? Perhaps instead of a 90V motor it was a 180V motor. ?Too old to replace under warranty.? Too expensive to buy a new one. ? So I went the Bergerda route and by the time all was said and done I had 4 AC servos plus the unfinished AC servo for the harmonic 4th axis (STMBL controller).? Knee now runs 120ipm as does Y.? X is 150ipm max. ? As I have foundry all the plates, brackets etc. are castings machined on the mill either manually or as CNC was completed with CNC.? Having a Shumatech DRO-350 from the word go has been invaluable. ? And on the South Bend Lathe as yet I haven't bothered powering the cross slide because I have a mechanical taper attachment and my ELS runs the lead screw so I can thread imperial and metric and blind bore to a repeatable distance without issues. ? The yellow bits up by the spindle pulley are the holders for the slotted optical sensors for the quadrature encoder. ?The disk was milled via CNC. ? Short story in a nutshell.? Switched over permanently to LinuxCNC. ? John ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Andrei
Sent: March-03-23 12:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] FS: Baldor Motor and TECO drive combo for your lathe or other machines? I agree with you. When I say Chinesium, I am talking about the myriad of no-name clones that have wildly creative performance specifications that don't have anything in common with reality.? There are definitely quality products and providers in China. After all, 100% of iPhones are made there, and nobody complains about them. I was looking at Bergerda a while back, but never followed through. If yuo don't mind, can you share some of your project? It would be great to see it.? Hmmm, Bergerda North American distributor. That sounds good. I wonder what kind of outlay would be required. I am not rich, but I am willing to be adopted by rich people, or find me a sugar mama.?
Andrei, I'm not sure I'd make that such a general statement.? Like everything there are reliable and honest suppliers and less than that too. ? I've found dealing directly with Bergerda for purchase and support second to none including their engineers even sending me a cell phone video on some configuration setup. OTOH, the complaint from Bergerda, and it's a fair one, is the companies that buy in bulk and then resell on AliExpress but provide no support are a big pain in the rear.? Bergerda ends up supporting motors purchased from others at a low price but end up providing free support.? They can't afford that either. ? With that in mind Bergerda would like to set up a North American Distributor, who would get low prices and surface shipping costs with the idea that service would be supplied locally.? I would do it but shipping from Canada into the USA is worse than shipping from China to North America.? In fact shipping even by post in Canada is more expensive than shipping by post from China. ? If anyone knows someone who would like to become a servo/stepper motor supplier in North America let me know and I'll pass on a name. ? John ? ? ? Chinesium motors and full and accurate data cannot be used in the same sentence. Go for the big names and you will be fine. Baldor, Leeson, etc. You will pay the price, though, unless you go to auctions.?
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Re: FS: Baldor Motor and TECO drive combo for your lathe or other machines
Hi John,
I agree with you. When I say Chinesium, I am talking about the myriad of no-name clones that have wildly creative performance specifications that don't have anything in common with reality.?
There are definitely quality products and providers in China. After all, 100% of iPhones are made there, and nobody complains about them.
I was looking at Bergerda a while back, but never followed through. If yuo don't mind, can you share some of your project? It would be great to see it.?
Hmmm, Bergerda North American distributor. That sounds good. I wonder what kind of outlay would be required. I am not rich, but I am willing to be adopted by rich people, or find me a sugar mama.?
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Andrei,
I'm not sure I'd make that such a general statement.?
Like everything there are reliable and honest suppliers and less than that too.
?
I've found dealing directly with
Bergerda for purchase and support second to none including their engineers even sending me a cell phone video on some configuration setup.
OTOH, the complaint from
Bergerda, and it's a fair one, is the companies that buy in bulk and then resell on
AliExpress but provide no support are a big pain in the rear.?
Bergerda ends up supporting motors purchased from others at a low price but end up providing free support.?
They can't afford that either.
?
With that in mind
Bergerda would like to set up a North American Distributor, who would get low prices and surface shipping costs with the idea that service would be supplied locally.?
I would do it but shipping from Canada into the USA is worse than shipping from China to North America.?
In fact shipping even by post in Canada is more expensive than shipping by post from China.
?
If anyone knows someone who would like to become a servo/stepper motor supplier in North America let me know and I'll pass on a name.
?
John
?
?
?
Chinesium motors and full and accurate data cannot be used in the same sentence. Go for the big names and you will be fine. Baldor,
Leeson, etc. You will pay the price, though, unless you go to auctions.?
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Re: FS: Baldor Motor and TECO drive combo for your lathe or other machines
Andrei, I'm not sure I'd make that such a general statement.? Like everything there are reliable and honest suppliers and less than that too. ? I've found dealing directly with Bergerda for purchase and support second to none including their engineers even sending me a cell phone video on some configuration setup. OTOH, the complaint from Bergerda, and it's a fair one, is the companies that buy in bulk and then resell on AliExpress but provide no support are a big pain in the rear.? Bergerda ends up supporting motors purchased from others at a low price but end up providing free support.? They can't afford that either. ? With that in mind Bergerda would like to set up a North American Distributor, who would get low prices and surface shipping costs with the idea that service would be supplied locally.? I would do it but shipping from Canada into the USA is worse than shipping from China to North America.? In fact shipping even by post in Canada is more expensive than shipping by post from China. ? If anyone knows someone who would like to become a servo/stepper motor supplier in North America let me know and I'll pass on a name. ? John ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Andrei
Sent: March-03-23 12:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] FS: Baldor Motor and TECO drive combo for your lathe or other machines? Chinesium motors and full and accurate data cannot be used in the same sentence. Go for the big names and you will be fine. Baldor, Leeson, etc. You will pay the price, though, unless you go to auctions.?
|
Re: FS: Baldor Motor and TECO drive combo for your lathe or other machines
Chinesium motors and full and accurate data cannot be used in the same sentence. Go for the big names and you will be fine. Baldor, Leeson, etc. You will pay the price, though, unless you go to auctions.?
One time I bought 8 Leeson motors on a pallet at auction. I only needed one. Took me a year to get rid of the others, but in the end I got a free motor. I don't recommend that to our married members, or at least hide the shotguns before you make such a foolish
purchase.?
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>??? My problem is that the motors I've found available, don't have that kind of
> info on their rating plates. for example:
>
>
> I want to set up my mill first.? It's a small round-column mill/drill of the
> 'Rong Fu' variety, branded as a 'Lincoln RF-20'.? Changing speeds with the belts
> is a major PITA, and with the offset idler pulley, it places the front belt
> directly above the clearance hole in the head casting.
>??? I'm in the process of implementing some upgrades to the mill.? I'm fabricating
> a riser block for the column, which will regain the Z travel lost with the
> installation of a vise, and also mount the lower end of a stabilizer bar to
> prevent rotation when the head is raised or lowered.
>??? To increase the utility of the Z travel, I plan on installing a scale for my
> DRO on the Z axis, within the clearance hole in the head, with the scale
> anchored to the quill stop bracket, and the read head anchored to the column at
> the top.? In this way, the DRO will measure the tool position regardless of
> quill or head movement.? This is why I want to eliminate that side idler pulley,
> so the single belt will go around the column, leaving the clearance hole
> obstruction free.
>??? With a 15:1 speed range available from a VFD, I might get away with a single
> sheave belt drive.? I was hoping for 20:1, but then, I'm a dreamer, right?? I'll
> look into designing a double-sheave arrangement that would stretch my spindle
> speed from 150 to 3000RPM.
>
> --
> Rick Green
Hi Rick,
As I've probably said before I had the same issue and couldn't find an inexpensive 3 phase 2HP motor and VFD combination.? Since I wanted an AC servo to replace the non-functional DC Brushed Servo from Automation Technologies (it was too old for warranty) and
the AC Servo from Bergerda was cheaper than the identical replacement I added a 1.8kW AC servo for my mill spindle.?
I can do positioning with it:
I can power tap with it.? First try at tapping a hole in a piece of oak.
And attached is the install with the new AC Servo moved over where the intermediate pulley was.? I haven't needed to change the belt to the smaller pulley.
Just a suggestion.
John
?
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Re: FS: Baldor Motor and TECO drive combo for your lathe or other machines
My problem is that the motors I've found available, don't have that kind of
info on their rating plates. for example:
I want to set up my mill first. It's a small round-column mill/drill of the
'Rong Fu' variety, branded as a 'Lincoln RF-20'. Changing speeds with the belts
is a major PITA, and with the offset idler pulley, it places the front belt
directly above the clearance hole in the head casting.
I'm in the process of implementing some upgrades to the mill. I'm fabricating
a riser block for the column, which will regain the Z travel lost with the
installation of a vise, and also mount the lower end of a stabilizer bar to
prevent rotation when the head is raised or lowered.
To increase the utility of the Z travel, I plan on installing a scale for my
DRO on the Z axis, within the clearance hole in the head, with the scale
anchored to the quill stop bracket, and the read head anchored to the column at
the top. In this way, the DRO will measure the tool position regardless of
quill or head movement. This is why I want to eliminate that side idler pulley,
so the single belt will go around the column, leaving the clearance hole
obstruction free.
With a 15:1 speed range available from a VFD, I might get away with a single
sheave belt drive. I was hoping for 20:1, but then, I'm a dreamer, right? I'll
look into designing a double-sheave arrangement that would stretch my spindle
speed from 150 to 3000RPM.
--
Rick Green Hi Rick, As I've probably said before I had the same issue and couldn't find an inexpensive 3 phase 2HP motor and VFD combination. Since I wanted an AC servo to replace the non-functional DC Brushed Servo from Automation Technologies (it was too old for warranty) and the AC Servo from Bergerda was cheaper than the identical replacement I added a 1.8kW AC servo for my mill spindle. I can do positioning with it: I can power tap with it. First try at tapping a hole in a piece of oak. And attached is the install with the new AC Servo moved over where the intermediate pulley was. I haven't needed to change the belt to the smaller pulley. Just a suggestion. John
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Re: FS: Baldor Motor and TECO drive combo for your lathe or other machines
On Fri, 3 Mar 2023, John Fischer wrote: Rick
Been there... Why not keep the existing pulley set-up, and use the VFD to
fill in gaps/avoid shifting unless needed. Part of my plan is to remove the obstruction to the central hole in the head casting so I can install the combined Head/Quill Z axis scale there. To your point of motors, you are never going to be able to get specs or
support on a motor like that, so if you use one, I would not design like it
is going to work across such a wide range. I would never want to be without
very low speeds for things like drilling a large hole using a hole saw or
fly cutter. TAANSTAFL! At ~$200 vs. $$800+, I realized I must be dreaming. Is there any middle ground between Baldor and no-name import??? The mill now has a 1HP single-phase motor. I was hoping that using a 2HP motor with a 2HP VFD would compensate for the fall-off in torque at lower speeds. :-) -- Rick Green
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Re: FS: Baldor Motor and TECO drive combo for your lathe or other machines
Rick
Been there... Why not keep the existing pulley set-up, and use the VFD to
fill in gaps/avoid shifting unless needed. Usually when you are at the low
end of speed range, you are working with bigger cutters/drills and need
additional torque that the pulleys can give you but the VFD cannot. As a
demo, I once had a shop teacher put a 2x4 in a lathe chuck sticking out so
the 4 inch dimension would hit the casting by the ways. He put the back
gear on and started the lathe. 2x4 was sheared without any effort by the
lathe. Point was to demo so that students would respect the machine, but
also gave an idea of how much torque the machine could develop.
On a mill drill like that, I have found speeds that just don't work with a
given setup, and to be able to tweak with the VFD might help avoid
resonances and other issues.
To your point of motors, you are never going to be able to get specs or
support on a motor like that, so if you use one, I would not design like it
is going to work across such a wide range. I would never want to be without
very low speeds for things like drilling a large hole using a hole saw or
fly cutter.
-J
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Richard Green Sent: Friday, March 3, 2023 1:01 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] FS: Baldor Motor and TECO drive combo for your lathe or other machines Thanks. That's the best explanation I've ever heard. My problem is that the motors I've found available, don't have that kind of info on their rating plates. for example: I want to set up my mill first. It's a small round-column mill/drill of the 'Rong Fu' variety, branded as a 'Lincoln RF-20'. Changing speeds with the belts is a major PITA, and with the offset idler pulley, it places the front belt directly above the clearance hole in the head casting. I'm in the process of implementing some upgrades to the mill. I'm fabricating a riser block for the column, which will regain the Z travel lost with the installation of a vise, and also mount the lower end of a stabilizer bar to prevent rotation when the head is raised or lowered. To increase the utility of the Z travel, I plan on installing a scale for my DRO on the Z axis, within the clearance hole in the head, with the scale anchored to the quill stop bracket, and the read head anchored to the column at the top. In this way, the DRO will measure the tool position regardless of quill or head movement. This is why I want to eliminate that side idler pulley, so the single belt will go around the column, leaving the clearance hole obstruction free. With a 15:1 speed range available from a VFD, I might get away with a single sheave belt drive. I was hoping for 20:1, but then, I'm a dreamer, right? I'll look into designing a double-sheave arrangement that would stretch my spindle speed from 150 to 3000RPM. -- Rick Green
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Re: FS: Baldor Motor and TECO drive combo for your lathe or other machines
On Wed, 1 Mar 2023, John Fischer wrote: Hey Rick
Inverter duty motor is designed to work with an inverter, and therefore is
typically able to work over a much wider speed range, i.e. will work at
lower speed without needing to supplement the cooling as you have described.
Take a look at the nameplate picture and note motor will run constant torque
or variable torque from 6 to 60 Hz, since speed is proportional to
frequency, that is a 10x range. It is rated constant HP from 60 to 90Hz.
Max speed is 2700 RPM, which would be a little over 90Hz. Minimum speed 6 Hz
is 144 RPM.
Generally speaking, if you reduce speed by 1/2, you reduce HP by 1/2 as
well. This imposes some practical limits on speed range for machine tools
as compared to say a fan or pump. So, on your machine, you still want to
use speed reduction pulleys, back gear, etc. if you are trying to make it do
hard work at low speeds. I find that on a milling machine, I can use a very
wide speed range on the VFD, because I am typically using a small cutter. I
would expect on a lathe, the range may be more limited.
All in all I like using VFDs on my tools, and I have several, but don't
expect that you will never need to shift down. In conjunction with back
gear, you can go really slow on lathe for things like winding coils or
threading to a shoulder.
I am sure that people smarter than I will have something to say about my
simplistic explanation, but I hope it helps...
Best
John
Thanks. That's the best explanation I've ever heard. My problem is that the motors I've found available, don't have that kind of info on their rating plates. for example: I want to set up my mill first. It's a small round-column mill/drill of the 'Rong Fu' variety, branded as a 'Lincoln RF-20'. Changing speeds with the belts is a major PITA, and with the offset idler pulley, it places the front belt directly above the clearance hole in the head casting. I'm in the process of implementing some upgrades to the mill. I'm fabricating a riser block for the column, which will regain the Z travel lost with the installation of a vise, and also mount the lower end of a stabilizer bar to prevent rotation when the head is raised or lowered. To increase the utility of the Z travel, I plan on installing a scale for my DRO on the Z axis, within the clearance hole in the head, with the scale anchored to the quill stop bracket, and the read head anchored to the column at the top. In this way, the DRO will measure the tool position regardless of quill or head movement. This is why I want to eliminate that side idler pulley, so the single belt will go around the column, leaving the clearance hole obstruction free. With a 15:1 speed range available from a VFD, I might get away with a single sheave belt drive. I was hoping for 20:1, but then, I'm a dreamer, right? I'll look into designing a double-sheave arrangement that would stretch my spindle speed from 150 to 3000RPM. -- Rick Green
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Re: Collets for 1922 SB model 37 15" lathe
I finally made a path to the lathe and got the chuck off of it.? I purchased a thread gauge that goes down to 6.? Turns out mine is 2-1/4-8.? Wish I had checked sooner.? I now have a couple of 2-1/4-6 backplates to get rid of and a nose protector. Rick Swineford? ? ? Is there a plate with catalog no. 37 stamped on it? Why I ask is this is about the time period they changed the 15” base catalog number to 67. If your spindle is a 2-1/4-6tpi, it’s usually dated after Dec. of 1924, and the approximant time of the model change. The older model 37 usually had a 2-1/4-8tpi spindle. The taper is the same .602, the large end of the taper is 1.325. The 14-1/2-inch lathe prior to Sept. of 1948 had the same spindle thread and taper dimensions. They held a No. 3 MT center with a spindle adapter sleeve They used a No. 4 SBL Collet with a collet adapter sleeve. Hope that helps, Steve ? ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Steve Wells Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2023 1:06 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Collets for 1922 SB model 37 15" lathe ? It looks like there might be a mistake in the South Bend Spindle spec sheets I have The real end date of the 2-1/4-8tpi spindle in the 15-inch might be 6-22-1922 instead of the listed 12-16-1924. They shortened the spindle nose on the 2-1/4-6 by a ?-inch and that was on 6-22-1922. And I see it is a model 37. So the older date looks correct, with the serial no. The bed serial no. appears to have been stamped in 1920, Interesting! ? Steve ? ? I have the Grizzly serial number info.? I have attached the file. ?The thread is definitely 2-1/4x6.? I may have a nose insert.? My dad had purchased this back in the 70’s? He had it torn down and he repainted it.? It was previously owned by a gunsmith.? Has tons of tooling that a lot of it we cannot identify.? I have a very good friend who is a machinist by trade and he is not sure what some of it is.? It sat for over 30 years at my dad’s in Ohio.? I moved it to Florida in early 2000’s.? I have done some very minor work with it, but it is currently buried.? I am renovating the shop and putting in storage cabinets.? I have a HF 7x12, a small Atlas (needs the drive section) and another small lathe unidentified with a lever operated tailstock, may have been used for turning starter armatures.? Again, renovating the shop so that I can get to the machines.? Also have an old B&S horizontal mill and an Atlas shaper, it too missing the drive section.? I retired 2 years ago and immediately got shoulder replacement which set me back for about 6 months.? Then family medical issues with pneumonia, RSV then covid, all last year.? Slowly catching up on normal household repairs and getting to the shop.? I have plenty of projects to keep me busy. Rick ? ? Feel for you, Bro. My first class was in 1973, and only a semester (or maybe a quarter) long. Finally got desperate in 2008, and bought a Harbor Freight 93212 7x10 Mini-Lathe. Same one they carry in the stores now. Not a terrible machine, really, but I was a terrible machinist, and couldn't figure out why. Until my wife got tired of listening to whine, and told me to take another class. Started the class in February, 2015, finished in May of 2022. Should normally take 8-9 months, if you go full-time. Long story short, I was a crappy machinist because I could not accurately measure anything. There is a sense of touch you need to get the caliper or micrometer consistently tight enough to get the correct reading. I lost that sometime between 1973 & 2008. Only took a few hours sitting in class with a set of Jo-blocks and my mikes and calipers, and I had it. I've got more than one lathe, though the 7x10 is now gone, and the one I've spent the most time on lately is an Atlas TH42, which now sports and ER32 collet chuck on it's 1-1/2"x8tpi spindle. MT3 taper.? I traded the 7x10 for a couple of Unimats, an SL1000 and a DB200, which are essentially the same machine. They can be configured as either a lathe or milling machine with minimal accessories. I've made an ER25 collet chuck for one, of them, though I haven't gotten to test it. Also, I made it on the big machines at school. A Clausing Colchester 13, that being the closest thing they had to my smaller machines.? As a restoration project, there is a 1941 South Bend Heavy 10L sitting in the back of the shop, too. 2-1/4"-8tpi spindle on it. They have a proprietary insert that adapts to, in the case of mine, an MT3, IIRC. Might be MT4.? I've heard it said that the insert is about a Morse 4.5, but can't swear it's accurate. If you can get measurements of the taper, you can make all the inserts you want! Those inserts are not held in by a drawbar, BTW. I guess they're a self-holding taper just as the normal Morse Tapers are.? The tailstock is definitely an MT3, though. Steve Wells' site has a lot of the old catalogs and machine forms, so you might be able to find out more about your machine there. If you have the serial number, you can get a copy of the serial number card from Grizzly. It will at least tell you how it was originally equipped, and when it was shipped to the first owner. Gets you the correct model number, too. Can be useful looking at those forms and catalogs.? I've not tried for an ER40 yet, as none of my functional machines can make full use of that size collet. But someday! William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) Good judgement comes from experience Experience comes from bad judgement.? Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better ? Looking for options to add collets to my very old SB 15x8 lathe.? I have seen the recent posts on using a backplate and ebay/amazon ER40 chuck.? Wondering what was the original taper in the tube of my SB model 37?? Is it morse or what I believe is SB propietary?? If morse, then I would need a drawbar and nut for the tube.? As close as I can tell the threads are 2-1/4x6, not 2-1/4x8 like the newer lathes.
I have multiple chucks and backplates if I want to go the ER40 route.? I am a beginner as to working with lathes.? Shop class 55 years ago.?
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Re: A very different T-Nut.
Actually thats a Burke #4 Mill. It has both a horizontal and vertical mode.?
BUT
There is a way to do it on the SB.? The back gears can be used as (Limited) indexing. Some multiples of 3 and 2 are available.? As I remember there are 24 different positions. You do need to approximately mark the spots first and if using a multiple of 3, you need to start on the correct indexing position.?
You also need a cross drilling fixture.?
Shown above I am drilling 4 holes on a bolt circle. The work is held in the spindle and indexed and locked using the back gears.?
Drilling is done by a shop made cross drilling fixture that works on the QCTP. Here is what I used.?
The chuck was scrap. the rod is ground. Bearing needs a flange to handle the thrust.? I later added a rear bearing. .?
An external drill provides the power.?
Dr. James A Benjamin 1629 Riverview Drive. Apt 416 Deerfield Beach, FL 33441
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Very cool. I don't think anyone I know ever thought of indexing like that on the lathe. Thanks for the idea.
Payson.
--
Jim B
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Lol. Scrap value, at most
Get
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Check this one out!
No thanks on this one for that much.
On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 9:35?AM Andrei < calciu1@...> wrote:
Try bargaining a little. You never know. Judging by the pictures, it should be OK, but nothing compares to you putting your hands on it and checking it out.?
The old vises are much better than the new chinese garbage sold for 50 bucks. The gray cast iron used was 50,000+ psi and the new vises top out at around 30,000, making them lighter duty.
Of course, any vise is better than no vise, at least until you get a really good one.?
Wilton still makes vises in USA and sells them for 600 bucks, new, versus the chinesium ones that go for a couple of hundred.?
Gressel and Heuer from Germany use cast steel and their vises are lighter but just as strong as cast iron. Of course, they cost a boat load. A fully loaded vise can be over 1000 bucks, while the basic one runs about 500, depending where you buy it.?
He still has it.? ?Added more pics.? Gonna see about going to check it out.?
A local feller has this for sale for 200.? Says it opens 6" and weighs 70#.? Anyone know what model it is and if it's a good deal??
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Check this one out!
No thanks on this one for that much.
On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 9:35?AM Andrei < calciu1@...> wrote:
Try bargaining a little. You never know. Judging by the pictures, it should be OK, but nothing compares to you putting your hands on it and checking it out.?
The old vises are much better than the new chinese garbage sold for 50 bucks. The gray cast iron used was 50,000+ psi and the new vises top out at around 30,000, making them lighter duty.
Of course, any vise is better than no vise, at least until you get a really good one.?
Wilton still makes vises in USA and sells them for 600 bucks, new, versus the chinesium ones that go for a couple of hundred.?
Gressel and Heuer from Germany use cast steel and their vises are lighter but just as strong as cast iron. Of course, they cost a boat load. A fully loaded vise can be over 1000 bucks, while the basic one runs about 500, depending where you buy it.?
He still has it.? ?Added more pics.? Gonna see about going to check it out.?
A local feller has this for sale for 200.? Says it opens 6" and weighs 70#.? Anyone know what model it is and if it's a good deal??
|
Re: FS: Baldor Motor and TECO drive combo for your lathe or other machines
Hey Rick
Inverter duty motor is designed to work with an inverter, and therefore is
typically able to work over a much wider speed range, i.e. will work at
lower speed without needing to supplement the cooling as you have described.
Take a look at the nameplate picture and note motor will run constant torque
or variable torque from 6 to 60 Hz, since speed is proportional to
frequency, that is a 10x range. It is rated constant HP from 60 to 90Hz.
Max speed is 2700 RPM, which would be a little over 90Hz. Minimum speed 6 Hz
is 144 RPM.
Generally speaking, if you reduce speed by 1/2, you reduce HP by 1/2 as
well. This imposes some practical limits on speed range for machine tools
as compared to say a fan or pump. So, on your machine, you still want to
use speed reduction pulleys, back gear, etc. if you are trying to make it do
hard work at low speeds. I find that on a milling machine, I can use a very
wide speed range on the VFD, because I am typically using a small cutter. I
would expect on a lathe, the range may be more limited.
All in all I like using VFDs on my tools, and I have several, but don't
expect that you will never need to shift down. In conjunction with back
gear, you can go really slow on lathe for things like winding coils or
threading to a shoulder.
I am sure that people smarter than I will have something to say about my
simplistic explanation, but I hope it helps...
Best
John
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Richard Green Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 2:19 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] FS: Baldor Motor and TECO drive combo for your lathe or other machines I'm not within pickup distance, but I am interested in doing a VFD conversion on both my lathe and mill. I have been totally unable to find any real numbers on the useful frequency or RPM range a setup like this would give me. Can you point me to any online resources that would help me specify a motor/drive combo for my lathe? How much and how quickly does torque fall off when you veer off the 60hz the motor is designed for? What exactly does 'Inverter Duty' mean? does this give a wider useful speed range? How about stator cooling? I've seen some installations where the builder grafted a computer muffin fan to the end bell of the motor for better cooling at low speed. I have not seen this specified in any available motor, even those that claim 'inverter rated'. I know, I ask too many questions... I've heard that many times before. -- Rick Green
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Nick Andrews
Rick Swineford
Jim_B